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March 28, 2024, 08:03:40 PM

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Poohthology Test

Started by bgmnts, July 04, 2022, 12:26:30 AM

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Lungpuddle

For what it's worth, I was diagnosed schizophrenic 17 years ago and my life has been almost completely ruined because of it (schizophrenia, not the diagnosis). I've had CBT a lot of times and it's always the case that it only really has an effect years after I've finished the sessions. But overall I'd say CBT has helped. It's not a cure, but nothing is. Isn't the problem with the NHS funding cuts more than anything else?

I actually only came here to call Christopher Robin a cunt, to be honest.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Goldentony on July 04, 2022, 08:21:50 PMYeah getting your hands on anything that isn't CBT is like Temple Of Doom, and the over reliance of it for years now is what's giving it it's joke/shite reputation as something you have to wait 18 months for only for it to be a group session in a conference centre with 30 other people.  Like I remember mid session after the woman had described it all to us a woman about 40 years older than the rest of us very calmly asked us how this was supposed to help if the person you oved had fucking died and you didn't want to think of a future without them and there was just nothing, nobody could say fuck all or deal with it properly. They just went ahead with the lesson after going AEERE EUURGHERERASAR???

I remember telling them at the end of the very first session that this was absolutely useless to me, and since then the most i've been able to get any access to is more CBT, different anti depressants or a 30 free trips to the gym.

So what in your opinion is the answer the ladies question? and what would you like from MH services? - these are not trick questions, I'm genuinely trying to get peoples input here.

There is a lot of talk about group CBT here which is mostly done as a cost saving measure but of course has lots of problems, a well trained therapist knows how to manage group session because there are benefits sometimes to be had but they are also the worst if not delivered properly (its been about half a decade at least since I ran any group sessions of this kind but I've seen all this stuff before).

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 08:54:35 PMOK but can you see that my post isn't about that? You said "There is so much utter nonsense here that I don't know where to begin" but what? I've just outlined the 3 points I actually covered and none of them are "nonsense".

First off I should apologise, I overreacted, and "So much utter nonsense" was unfair. What I had an issue with was this:

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 12:25:54 PMIt also isn't the only thing available on the NHS you can of course get counselling and several other therapies depending on your local NHS trust (all of them are different and provide different services - in some of them you can still get ECT if you were that way inclined). 

Because as mentioned CBT is dolled out way too often, and many a time with the caveat that you'll have six or eight appointments but that's your lot, which to me is absolutely horrifying. It does vary from where you live, but in general the service offered is appalling, and even if CBT is proven not to work you won't be given any other options other than medication.

And personally I don't think a "CBT works for some, so we should be grateful for that" response is enough. We should be passionately demanding more care, more consideration, and doing whatever we can to make it clear that the government's choices in this field are abjectly terrifying as it's causing so much misery.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Small Man Big Horse on July 04, 2022, 09:24:24 PMBecause as mentioned CBT is dolled out way too often, and many a time with the caveat that you'll have six or eight appointments but that's your lot, which to me is absolutely horrifying. It does vary from where you live, but in general the service offered is appalling, and even if CBT is proven not to work you won't be given any other options other than medication.

I know this isn't what was saying here, you are meant to have 20 sessions.  I've saying CBT the model works, like it worked for you in 2008, it is useful for somethings rather than others and it doesn't work you should have other options other than medication.  This is exactly my feelings.  The thing that was put out there and the origins of this whole conversation was that CBT itself doesn't work, the model doesn't work, not that fact people can't get access to a full schedule, or a proper therapist or that it works in every situation.

Quote from: Small Man Big Horse on July 04, 2022, 09:24:24 PMAnd personally I don't think a "CBT works for some, so we should be grateful for that" response is enough. We should be passionately demanding more care, more consideration, and doing whatever we can to make it clear that the government's choices in this field are abjectly terrifying as it's causing so much misery.

I'm 100% not saying this. Where does this "so we should be grateful" come from, you are quoting me as if I said that?! The closet I've come to saying anything about CBT working for some is, lets not remove access to CBT to the people it does work for just because it didn't work for others (because it might impact really badly on those people). 

Of course we should be passionately demanding more that is what we people like me do, there is political activism and then evidential pressure (I do both) getting protective measures through parliament and enshrined in law (I'm not going to go into details here but I've actually been part of this) is really difficult you can't just wave flags and shout about it (I'm not saying stop doing so) you have to get your work into select committees for consideration, create moral and economic cases for it and get it pursued all the way to being passed.  It takes a lot of work.  At same time other people might be providing other solutions that might have more of economic case and therefore more likely to be considered even though they effectively reduce care and choices.


I promise you I am not the enemy here.

Luornu

God I hate cbt. I know the reason why the nhs pushes it so hard is because it is cheap. Well not only have I found it useless (and it is useless for anyone whose mh problems are you know  awkward and complicated like the human mind is) but offensive as well.

I have found cbt to be just a fancified and superficially clinical language'd version of just saying 'stop complaining and just put up with it'. That's it. They don't call it that of course, they call it 'reframing'. And when you get to the bottom of it you find that they aren't interested in helping you fix your problems that are causing your depression they just say in a dressed up sort of way 'stop whining and put up with it'. Yeeeeeah they got nothing.

Well I finally got some response from the nhs about my near suicidal at times deep depression that pushed me to the edge of insanity and made me want to stop living in the three or four years after my partner dumped me and left me entirely alone in the world (not exaggerating I literally have no friends or family he was everything) I didn't want cbt 'cos I knew something about it and I knew it would be deeply unhelpful but the doctor pressurised me into accepting it

And it was as bad as I thought. Got this woman who wasn't interested in hearing about my depression and how my mental health was tanking so bad I often wanted to die and she just kept on about imagining my problems on leaves floating on a river and letting them float down the river. Absolute fucking wank pardon my french

Made me feel like ten times worse, it's a good job I wasn't more suicidal because that might have pushed over the edge. Spent the rest of the day crying my eyes out. The stupid woman was brusque and didn't give a shit.

I stopped going after a couple of weeks told the woman again and again that I needed proper counseling but she wasn't interested. Eventually I just resigned myself to dealing with my problem by myself, screaming and screaming in the middle of the night, waking up the neighbours, screaming at the ghost of my ex partner, having the police come to see me cos they thought I was doing something to hurt myself cos the neighbours thought god knows what

All that fun stuff.

So yeah cbt is shit. All it is 'just put up with it and we don't care' that's all it is. I am afraid that it makes me very angry.

Goldentony

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 09:06:02 PMSo what in your opinion is the answer the ladies question? and what would you like from MH services? - these are not trick questions, I'm genuinely trying to get peoples input here.

an option that isn't CBT in the first place. Getting to something, literally anything finally, and realising it's a totally unsuitable service after eons of waiting is just the worst shit, and then you realise if you want to try again it's probably your only option again. It's how something like CBT gets its reputation as government paracetomol. People get told to just try it, dismiss it, go off and get worse, CBT becomes a novelty shorthand for fixing every personal issue and everyone gets fucked from it.

I'd first off properly and in a legislation sense have GPs struck off for suggesting walking to people, id like more funding for the caveats and hidden tunnels of mental health so that there's easily available and alternative (as in other, not crystals and urine baths) options, i'd like it to be free and for the people who offer it to be paid enough to care and not have to offer the wrong shit to people in order to justify funding, i'd like the destruction of shite local small town conference centres used as meeting places, i'd like the all out dismantling of conservative thought and political practice and i'd like £5000 a week.

I'd take people's 'no' as a first answer too rather than constantly trying to bring up refused suggestions over and over again. I had a GP who when I was detailing the amount of dangerous shite I was thinking and feeling made absolutely sure to mention going for a walk in the trees like a fucking Ewok as if the parks near me were sound, I could get to anywhere near grass to walk or that I didnt wake up 8pm every night thinking HAHA DEATH instead.

nobody communicates and everyones tired and paranoid. Suppose I could have just said that. Fix those three first. Personally I feel like currently there's nothing that can help me because of the amount of time i've waited to be fucked around for what might aswell by a driving lesson in terms of usefulness. I also dont trust that the government currently offer anything that'd make the effort and potential of worse pain worth the effort of getting it. I dont like this country, I hate it and I hate the cunts at the contrrols of most of the things and if you were to even begin trying to fix the state all of this is in you'd have to eventually aim for getting rid of all of these fucking tits in one go. Let them retire, let them go to Aruba, whatever. But while the country is the way it is it's all just a fucked living room door you can still sort of close if you put your foot on this bit.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Luornu on July 04, 2022, 09:53:27 PMshe just kept on about imagining my problems on leaves floating on a river and letting them float down the river.

Is this stuff actually common.  A few people are saying thing like this.  It's hard to tell whether this is being caricatured or whether this is literally what is being said to people.

This is not CBT.  It sounds like imagery script, relaxation, meditation stuff.

Goldentony

in all seriousness, I had a psychologist tell me to imagine my problems as a shark in the back garden

Luornu

I'm doing much better now! Turns out time really is a healer, or maybe the sheer absurdity of my situation has made me realise that literally nothing matters, something like that perhaps! Nihilism for all! yeah!

The reason I found the 'put your problems on leaves and let them float down the river' so angrymaking (That's not a word I know) is because I felt it was dismissing my problems and not listening to me at all. I really wanted to be listened to and for another human being to acknowledge that what my ex did to me was wrong and that I was a good person (he really did a number on me with saying I was bad, like I was a sociopath and shit like that) and....all I got was visualise leaves on a river...

I mean, that isn't helping me. At all. Because visualising my problems as leaves on a river does the square root of shag all in actually fixing those problems. The imaginary floating leaves did not make my problems magically disappear. My problems were still there! This cbt thing to me seems to be 'lets ignore reality and push our problems down, smile and ignore them if you say they don't exist they magically won't!'

Yeah pushing down my problems and smile like an idiot. It's exactly that sort of repression that helped me become mentally ill in the first place.

I think cbt is not only offensive in this context, but dangerous. And the nhs pushes pushes pushes it because it is cheap and easy. MH is messy, it defies 'easy'

It will be a cold day in hell before I subject myself to its tender mercies again. Maybe some people have found it useful, not me.

TrenterPercenter

#69
Quote from: Goldentony on July 04, 2022, 09:56:02 PMthe caveats and hidden tunnels of mental health so that there's easily available and alternative

What does this mean?

This is just turning into walls of anger at the system.  I get it don't worry, I really do.

The answer to your ladies question is simple.  It doesn't work for her not being able to imagine a life without her partner that isn't what group CBT is going to be about - therapists are not there to solve every problem and they shouldn't try to with one tool.  I'm out of this game (working with adults I was never a CBT practitioner) a long time ago but it sounds like this has all deteriorated much more than I'd thought.  It sounds suspiciously like welfare to work stuff from the mid 2000s.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Luornu on July 04, 2022, 10:09:47 PMbecause I felt it was dismissing my problems and not listening to me at all.

Well this is quite a fundamental basis of any therapeutic relationship so it is not surprising.

Glad to hear you are better now.

A lot of this isn't sounding like CBT at all btw.

Goldentony

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 10:11:57 PMWhat does this mean?

it'd be good for the government and the services they provide and fund to help research more options for treatment so that CBT isn't months of waiting lists away for people who actually need it and could get help fom it rather than sending everyone to it because the advisor managed to say "just give it a try you never know" enough times.

Goldentony

Double post sorry but I guess the point is there's tons of methods of coping, of helping, whatever you want to call it, and the only one I see people taking the piss out of is CBT because it gets handed out to people the instant they hint at feeling strange. I'm cetain and in full belief that it works, honest, but EVERYONE gets sent to it and if you keep doing that it's reputation suffers unfairly. You then get a method of help with a pisspoor reputation because it's treated like sadness Lemsip and with it a bunch of people potentially made even worse because the information they're getting is as much use as a manual on how to properly roof a cottage.

bgmnts

To be fair therapy in most contexts is ineffective firefighting for a lot of people. The best way to improve mental health is surely to improve material conditions for regular people.

Goldentony

ideally you'd overthrow capitalism, throw out the concept of money and force landlords into the road to eat parts of their own homes aye

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Goldentony on July 04, 2022, 10:23:07 PMit'd be good for the government and the services they provide and fund to help research more options for treatment so that CBT isn't months of waiting lists away for people who actually need it and could get help fom it rather than sending everyone to it because the advisor managed to say "just give it a try you never know" enough times.

There are other forms of talking therapies already but the government doesn't fund psychotherapists, they self fund and in the process become self employed therefore have no interest in working for the NHS as they can get paid more privately.

The solution is to take MH seriously and provide it with funding on a par with physical health.  It needs to be community based and integrated into social care also.  We need a staged model of care from community to clinic with a variety of treatments provided along the way.

The thing is this is of course just common sense, it is not only the "moral thing" to do but the economically sensible thing to do because workforce health creates productivity, participation and promotes health reducing costs (this doesn't mean reduced benefits or no long-term sickness this means better provision for those that need it).  One of the ideological failings of what became the welfare to work system (and not social security) is it is predicated on the belief that people need incentivising to work, when most people want to work they just want to work in fulfilling roles that are healthy for them to do.  The is more a question of what work should be not whether we can get people doing things that ultimately they don't want to do and are bad for their health.

bgmnts

I don't really want to work.

How does that work mental health wise?

flotemysost

[tag]TIGGER WARNING[/tag]

Overwhelmingly ursine here, absolutely reeking of Pooh (with that orange cunt not far behind).


Re: CBT, I found it useful-ish when I was referred in 2019 (this was the standard 8-week NHS course), but mainly because just having a professional affirm that I probably needed some sort of help in the first place was a relief in itself.

The sessions were good and I did try to remember the tools and techniques, but I'd always put off/forget to do the "homework" each week, then fudge it in a rush minutes before I was meant to leave for the session, inevitably tweaking my answers to indicate proof of improvement, because I didn't want the therapist to feel like she had failed and I felt guilty for wasting NHS resources when so many people in worse situations than me are stuck on waiting lists for months.

So yeah, as a disorganised people-pleaser I can see the flaws in that approach, but I'm absolutely not knocking it as a discipline overall, and my personal experience of it is really very limited.

I do still laugh when I think about one of the workbooks they gave me - a slightly dated-sounding US publication, part of which listed options for things you could do when you were feeling down, which included stuff like

Quote- Fly a kite
- Cook your favourite recipe
- Phone up a relative you haven't spoken to in a while
- Watch sex films
- Spend time in nature
- Paint with watercolours

Etc.

The unexpectedly blunt phrasing among all these genteel suggestions probably cheered me up more than anything else in the sessions, I'm afraid.

Goldentony

QuoteWatch sex films

changed my mind, bang into the CBT now


The Mollusk

God I'm so glad I scored 70%+ on both Pooh and Tigger so I don't have to bother reading the rest of this sad sack thread! Anyone fancy a pint?!

The Mollusk

only joking lol (though those were my test results and it's not surprising at all) - I love you all. It's fucking hell out there. I wish I had the mental stamina to even try and get my shit together but ADHD has rendered me all but entirely subservient to the whims of my puppy-like attention span in the last 2 years. Hoping to have a diagnosis soon-ish though, via the right to choose program. Kudos to anyone trying to iron out the creases in a totally dead system that doesn't give a fuck, you're fucking good people and you deserve all the happiness the world can provide.

My advice is smoke hash and talk to any animals you encounter in the street or even just on the screen of your phone. Slam your hands red raw on the kitchen worktop listening to Fela Kuti at full volume. This isn't therapy advice it's just a good laugh, might help idk.

BJBMK2

CBT worked fine for me. Not much else to add really, I can see why people would struggle with it, but I think the actual process and technique of it isn't quite the "don't think about bad stuff and it won't happen" mentality that some on here are making it out to be, that was quite the opposite, in my experience.

It helped that I somewhat fancied the lady doing it.

Goldentony

the message im getting here is smoke hash and walk round with a howling erection to which I say IN THIS ECONOMY ?

non capisco

Looks like there isn't a Winnie the Pooh character representing 'extremely probable, as yet undiagnosed dyspraxia' so I've got fobbed off with that cool sexy character that all the lasses love Piglet. Although I've just remembered there's an embedded video on the front page of this very site where Piglet fails to figure out how to tie a knot and all the other characters get fucked off with him so, yeah, checks out I suppose.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on July 04, 2022, 11:20:12 PMI don't really want to work.

How does that work mental health wise?

I don't want to work, I just want to be given material things and women to sleep with me because otherwise my mental health will suffer. I'm not a bank or a pimp so I can't really help  perhaps think about taking this up with one of them.

You don't want to work, don't, you don't want to do CBT, don't, I'm not sure why someone that is so convinced of what they don't need to do needs any advice, you've got it all sussed by the sound of things.

Stigdu

Quote from: The Mollusk on July 05, 2022, 12:42:53 AMMy advice is smoke hash and talk to any animals you encounter in the street or even just on the screen of your phone. Slam your hands red raw on the kitchen worktop listening to Fela Kuti at full volume. This isn't therapy advice it's just a good laugh, might help idk.

In all seriousness, I'd say that's a bloody terrible idea (the first part anyway). I'm absolutely positive it was the copious amount of drugs I took that started off my mental health issues. YMMV.

bgmnts

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 05, 2022, 10:55:17 AMI don't want to work, I just want to be given material things and women to sleep with me because otherwise my mental health will suffer.

See I don't want either of those things either tbh. You're not the best at this are you? :/

Scares me a bit.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on July 05, 2022, 11:58:53 AMSee I don't want either of those things either tbh. You're not the best at this are you? :/

Scares me a bit.

You are a liar, but anyway listen to yourself, I'm not the best at what? This is hilarious you seem to think I'm here to sort you out, it's an incredibly self-centred view of this interaction, I'm not your therapist, this isn't therapy and I'm also not your mum.  There is no professional relationship here that you think you can grade but it's very telling that you feel you can.

Kankurette

There's no point me doing this, my childhood nickname was Eeyore, I think we all know who wins here.