Hamza deportation Al Grauniad's front page has black borders as mark of respect

[Glebe]

I was so angry when I saw this I put my foot through the Daily Mail and sent 1980s tea time viewing the bill.

[Notlob]

Hamza is a convicted criminal (and total dickhead) who has already served time for this offences. There may even be some just cause in trying him in the US where he is accused of assisting a US citizen set up a jihadi training camp (though he has not actually been the country himself).

Unfortunately for Babar Ahmed and the less well known Talha Ahsan (who has been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome) their cases are lumped in with Hamza's as if they are associated. Neither have never been to the US. They are accused of having run a pro-Taliban, pro-Chechen website where videos of fighters from conflicts in Afghanistan and Chechnya, Bosnia etc were posted. This was in the 90s here in the UK before it was illegal. The bulletin boards may have been a place for extremists to meet, but neither Ahmed or Ahsan are accused of targetting civilians in the UK or US. The website was closed down in 2001 and Ahmed was arrested in 2004 and Ahsan in 2006. There was not enough evidence here to convict them, so basically what is happening is that they have been requested by the US as what they have done may be illegal under US law. Both are British citizens who, if they did commit any crime, did so in the UK. The US feels they have the right to request their extradition because for two months one of the servers the website was hosted on was in the US. This is patently ridiculous - how many people have a facebook? Or a twitter? Are we all default US citizens now?

Ahmed has been held without charge for 8 years, and Ahsan for 6. Their lawyers are not able to access the evidence against them, and indeed the US doesn't have to present any prima fasciae evidence to a British judge to request the extradition - Blunkett removed that requirement early on. This treaty works only one way by the way, the UK couldn't, for example, ask for Irish Americans who may have funded the IRA and get that OK'd so easily.

Because of Hamza's negative media profile it is extremely unlikely these men will receive a fair trial in the US. The history of Guantanamo Bay, and the numerous wars fought against Muslim-majority countries in recent times feeds into that insecurity. Ahmed and Ahsan need to be tried in the UK. They are not asking for anything more than a fair trial in the country of their birth, the country they were in when they were accused of committing their crimes. As an autonomous nation, we shouldn't need to hand over our citizens to others for disciplining.

If found guilty in the US, they could face life in supermax solitary confinement, where they will spend 23 hours a day isolated from other human beings, and get 1 hour on exercise on weekdays. They will get one 15 minute call a month. This kind of extreme isolation for criminals with serious mental illnesses who have been and are a real physical threat to society and the wardens in charge I could just about understand. But for running a website?

The only hope now is if the Director of Public Prosecutions decides to freeze the extradition and consider the private prosecution bought against them by a British business. The DPP can be e-mailed at: keir.starmer@cps.gsi.gov.uk, so please do e-mail if you agree that British citizens deserve a British trial.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Unfortunately, Notlob, this well-argued and reasonable post on the implications of all this confirms you as a traitor.

Your choices of penance are as follows:

a) Slow death from cancer
b) Muppet costume
c) Waking up after a night on the granulated happiness and Bin Ladens, with the theme music from Schindler's List playing around your head and an inkling you might have made a bit of a plum of yourself.

[Notlob]

I pick the second option.

But only if you promise to be Kermit...

[Mister Six]

Post-chemo Beaker looks a bit like Walter White.

[Stanley Turbine]

If all they're accused of is running a pro-Taliban, pro-Chechen website and there's isn't enough evidence to prosecute them in the UK, how could they be convicted in the US, which has much stronger free speech protections (hence the continued existence of Storm Front, etc)? Do we know what they will actually be charged with once extradited?

[CaledonianGonzo]

"Providing material support to terrorism, providing illegal support to the Taliban, money-laundering and conspiring to kill people"

Here's Ahmad's indictment:

http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/U.S._v_Ahmad_Indictment.pdf

Basically, it's not really as simple as a free speech issue - but on the subject of US free-speech protections:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubair_Ahmad
http://www.salon.com/2011/09/04/speech_23//

[Stanley Turbine]

Wow. Come to think of it, I do remember thinking "hmm, did they just murder a US citizen for running a website?" when Anwar Al-Awlaki was killed. Not that a US citizen's life is worth more than anyone else's, but you don't usually expect your own government to blow you up just for tweeting some shit they don't like.

[Notlob]

To add to what Caledonian Gonzo said, all that stuff is illegal right here in the UK - the idea that you can cast about looking for a country to extradite these men to in case what they've done is illegal over there is ridiculous and illogical.

Though come to think of it -the first two may not have been crimes around the times these men are accused of running the website. In the early 90s the Taliban were presented as the noble villagers fighting to free their country from the Russians, and it wasn't illegal back then to fund or support them IIRC.

Stanley Turbine, that's very true - that's why I am appalled at the way they handled the execution of Osama Bin Laden - essentially it was storming a family home and shooting an unarmed man in the face. There was not even any attempt to arrest him so he could face justice. And that's what justice is about isn't it? Giving even the people you find most reprehensible due process. And it does feed into anger about America too - especially in Pakistan, where drone attacks have increased rather than decreased under Obama, then it appears that American values that are touted as the best only apply to those worthy of them.

[Prospero13]

"that's why I am appalled at the way they handled the execution of Osama Bin Laden - essentially it was storming a family home and shooting an unarmed man in the face."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! and another one bites the dust. 


You would have handled it better? Perhaps said hello, made him some fair trade salad? Asked him if he'd like some decaff tea? You Student Union no mates are beyond pathetic. I can see why you'd sympathise with him though. Osama was unwaged, as he hadn't had a job since September 11th 2001. 

[KLG-7A]

Prospero didn't feel the need to quote "There was not even any attempt to arrest him so he could face justice.".

[KLG-7A]

You Student Union no mates

Wait, what? What is inside a student union bar in your mind? Lots of people not talking to each other?

[KLG-7A]

Prospero

I think you're a slag Prospero. Slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag.

[Prospero13]

Hey looney tunes, why you would want to support the people who want to kill us? I don't know. Or care

What would Chris Morris do? Not hang about with his own fans that's for sure.

I know why you want to be bummed by Bin Laden, he's also unwaged. Since he murdered thousands of people Septemeber 11th 2001. Probably the last time you lot had a shag.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

You scum are on the other side, for whatever reason. Ayan Hirst Ali, gay men, women and trans people all hate Islam, as I do, What do you get from selling your own country out? Getting back at mummy and Daddy? Your scar faced spacker Morris, who scuttled, bricking it, after having a go at some real fucking satirists, London villains liek Frankie Fraser, where is he now?

Still living in Wandsworth. Won't be too hard to find.

Has someone changed Neil's nappy recently? Get Jonathon King to do it.

[Prospero13]

Well I do hope you have the courage to say that to my face. Mixed martial arts? Weapons? My old black ops mates? I've had it with commie scum. And you lot are too weak to get tooled up.

[KLG-7A]

My old black ops mates?

They cancelled your XBox Live account? No wonder you're so angry!

[Prospero13]

You're projecting, dear, from your own sad life playing video games. I am old and evil. Criminal record, hatred of people making excuses for our enemies, history of psychopathy, various medication that doesn't work any more. I'm going to out you lot as paedophile friendly for the Jonathon King kiss up. Good luck with fighting the tabloids off. 

[KLG-7A]

Criminal record, hatred of people making excuses for our enemies, history of psychopathy, various medication that doesn't work any more, plus me mum's fat.

[KLG-7A]

Me old mum.

[KLG-7A]

why is me mum so fat

[Notlob]

"that's why I am appalled at the way they handled the execution of Osama Bin Laden - essentially it was storming a family home and shooting an unarmed man in the face."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! and another one bites the dust. 


You would have handled it better? Perhaps said hello, made him some fair trade salad? Asked him if he'd like some decaff tea? You Student Union no mates are beyond pathetic. I can see why you'd sympathise with him though. Osama was unwaged, as he hadn't had a job since September 11th 2001.

Arrested him and put him on trial for his crimes. It was perfectly possible, they just chose not to do it. That's the point of a justice system - it applies to everybody, including the people you like the least. The families of his many victims deserve to hear the truth about him and who backed him, but they were robbed of that too.

[Notlob]

Hey looney tunes, why you would want to support the people who want to kill us? I don't know. Or care

What would Chris Morris do? Not hang about with his own fans that's for sure.

I know why you want to be bummed by Bin Laden, he's also unwaged. Since he murdered thousands of people Septemeber 11th 2001. Probably the last time you lot had a shag.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

You scum are on the other side, for whatever reason. Ayan Hirst Ali, gay men, women and trans people all hate Islam, as I do, What do you get from selling your own country out? Getting back at mummy and Daddy? Your scar faced spacker Morris, who scuttled, bricking it, after having a go at some real fucking satirists, London villains liek Frankie Fraser, where is he now?

Still living in Wandsworth. Won't be too hard to find.

Has someone changed Neil's nappy recently? Get Jonathon King to do it.

Oh dear.

[NoSleep]

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Well I do hope you have the courage to say that to my face. Mixed martial arts? Weapons? My old black ops mates? I've had it with commie scum. And you lot are too weak to get tooled up.

A "pro-democracy" violent thug. I think I'll pass on that.

[Vitalstatistix]

I am old and evil.

:)

[Buelligan]

I am old and evil.

I bet you're not even 18.

[The Βoston Crab]

Prospero, you're too broad. You haven't earned the credibility to sell all of that content yet. You're just ticking boxes. The odd reference to medication in passing, plus a legit debate about military techniques and you might be able to drop the psychopath bomb for effect but you're mixing it up far too much with the spacker and shagging trigger words. It started to read like a list. Definitely potential though, I just hope your med withdrawal and blinding rage doesn't make you melt yourself on a train line.

[marquis_de_sad]

Yeah, you really need to work on this troll character, Prospero. You start out too hectic and you've got nowhere to build to. It makes people miss the good lines like "some real fucking satirists, London villains liek Frankie Fraser", which is unfortunate.

Good try, but better luck next time.

[Buelligan]

[Why I Hate Tables]

Ayan Hirst Ali, gay men, women and trans people all hate Islam, as I do.

The problem isn't Islam as a religion, although it does say some vile stuff, same as Christianity or Judaism does mind you - holy books variously endorsing incest, rape, execution of non believers, genital mutilation, banishing women during the course of their menstrual cycle: the problem is the people who use Islam (or other religions) as their excuse to be violently homophobic, transphobic or misogynistic.  I completely agree with you, that kind of blind prejudice has no kind of place in our society but the fact is the Muslims are far from the only ones doing it, just the ones that're most widely reported. Without the convenient hiding place of religion to semi validate them, the "Gays are an abomination, women are inferior and anyone who doesn't agree with this book should be killed or converted" crowd would have to admit they were just dangerous bigots and possibly insane.

The problem is when many, many incidents of child rape are pardoned by the Pope - does that justify sending people in to blow his head off? It's hardly like he'd get a fair and balanced trial either, or even brought to trial. From an emotional perspective I don't have too much sympathy for Bin Laden, and I certainly didn't shed a tear when I heard he'd died but in a democracy we just can't go charging about shooting unarmed people or locking them up and torturing them til they confess. Although given what cwould've happened to Bin Laden after capture, that was a mercy killing.

.