This is getting silly...

[Malcontente]

As regards this headscarf fiasco- is it just a certain type of Muslim headscarf (if such an item of clothing exists) that can't be worn or is it all types of headscarf, meaning nobody is allowed to wear one even if it is a fashion statement rather than for a religious reason?

It's not limited to Muslims, it applies to anyone of any religion - the law simply states that no religious apparel is to be worn in schools that do not accord to a specific belief. I'd presume that wearing headscarves etc. for fashion purposes would already be ruled out by a school dress code.

[Cliche Guevara]

Hmm, possibly. I was assuming that schools in France didn't have uniforms or specific dress-codes.

Anyone have any idea?

[Pinball]

Hmm, possibly. I was assuming that schools in France didn't have uniforms or specific dress-codes.

Anyone have any idea?

Generally French schools don't have school uniforms, as far as I know.

[Pinball]

Does self-determination still exist these days or is it out of fashion since Woodrow Wilson's death? Why does Russia hold on to Chechnya anyway? It clearly costs it so much in terms of lives as well as economically.

As regards this headscarf fiasco- is it just a certain type of Muslim headscarf (if such an item of clothing exists) that can't be worn or is it all types of headscarf, meaning nobody is allowed to wear one even if it is a fashion statement rather than for a religious reason?

The whole "Russian Federation" deal seems to be a mini-Soviet Union IMO. Why can't Russia just get the hell out of Chechnya?? Probably partly to stop the US opening bases there (which they have done in all of the other ex-Soviet countries thereby encircling Russia and controlling the oil pipelines out of Russia), though two wrongs don't make a right...

Clearly the latest terrorism is an extreme element and not the general consensus. Doesn't change the wrongness of the Russian military occupation of Chechnya (justified originally on the basis of preventing civil war there I believe, gee wasn't that successful), although it does make Chechan "freedom" much less likely now.

What sardonically amuses me is how throughout human history, and to this day, larger countries never fail to dominate smaller ones. The brutal survivalist Darwinian nature of humanity continues. Bunch of gibbons FFS.

"Humanity - doing the Funky Gibbon to Armageddon"

[PyramidHead]

this is not exactly going to win the hearts and minds of anyone to bring them sympathy for the Chechen cause... Now it's about putting Putin in a lose-lose situation.

I'm not at all sure that Putin is in a lose-lose situation. If this all goes badly wrong and the 'rebels' start killing hostages (And frankly, fuck knows how they're going to prevent it), Russia effectively gets their very own 9/11, which would give them all the excuse they need to "Sort Chechnya out". They'd probably get more in the way of international support too.

Hang on, that came across more Pinballish™ than I'd intended. Oh well...

[Purple Tentacle]

"Why don't the British Government just give back Northern Ireland? Then the IRA will stop bombing shopping malls."


It's just not that simple, unfortunately, and although I really really don't want to side with that fucking tyrant Putin, you can't just cave in to terrorists.

Besides it makes me angry as fuck when some fucking American weilds an ignorant comment about Northern Ireland (like fucking Sex in the fucking City), and I imagine that Russian / Chechens feel the same about Johnny English reckoning he's got the solution to the situation.

[NattyDread]

some fucking American weilds an ignorant comment about Northern Ireland (like fucking Sex in the fucking City)

What was said in that?

[Cliche Guevara]

"Why don't the British Government just give back Northern Ireland? Then the IRA will stop bombing shopping malls."


It's just not that simple, unfortunately, and although I really really don't want to side with that fucking tyrant Putin, you can't just cave in to terrorists.

Besides it makes me angry as fuck when some fucking American weilds an ignorant comment about Northern Ireland (like fucking Sex in the fucking City), and I imagine that Russian / Chechens feel the same about Johnny English reckoning he's got the solution to the situation.

The situation in Northern Ireland is completely different though. In N.I. there's a Unionist majority willing to keep the union with Britain. Until there is a Nationalist majority or a majority who will vote for a united Ireland that cannot occur.

Is there not a Nationalist majority in Chechnya i.e. most Chechans want to break free from Russian rule?

[Harfyyn Teuport]

"Why don't the British Government just give back Northern Ireland? Then the IRA will stop bombing shopping malls."

It's just not that simple, unfortunately, and although I really really don't want to side with that fucking tyrant Putin, you can't just cave in to terrorists.

Besides it makes me angry as fuck when some fucking American weilds an ignorant comment about Northern Ireland (like fucking Sex in the fucking City), and I imagine that Russian / Chechens feel the same about Johnny English reckoning he's got the solution to the situation.

And Northern Irish people may well feel the same way about English people drawing their little statelet into a discussion of Chechnya?

For a start, if there's one thing that the NI situation has taught anyone it's the overwhelming difference that negotiation does make. The IRA were successfuly negotiated with. The worst acts of the troubles in the 70s and 80s were directly attributable to the non-negotiation of Thatcherism. She used fear as a weapon to discourage any discourse with the people involved and perpetuated  the Troubles indefinitely in so doing. After some long, laborious and often unsuccessful attempts during the middle of the last decade, it was negotiation throughout the late nineties that brokered the longest lasting peace in Northern Ireland for 40 years - in which we all purportedly now live. The "IRA" still raises its head every now and again, but the reason I put that in inverted commas is that everyone here knows there is no longer really an IRA so to speak. During its halcyon days its numbers were never greater than 100-150 men, and most of them at any given time would be fresh converts in prison, forced to align for their own security, never to return to 'active service' upon release. Omagh was the point at which even the most fervent republicans within splinter groups realised;

1)The acts they had supported were a morally and politically reprehensible reality far from the colouring book idealism of their father's fireside history.
2)They would never, ever succeed with barbarism and whatever justification people offered during their nobler years had been obliterated by entirely callous and revolting tactics.

At the moment, if there is a group of people still calling themselves the IRA - and there's probably 4 or 5 such groups - we're talking about small cliques of less than 10 disgruntled old men and impressionable young lads.

The situation in Northern Ireland is completely different though. In N.I. there's a Unionist majority willing to keep the union with Britain. Until there is a Nationalist majority or a majority who will vote for a united Ireland that cannot occur.

The situation is very different, and that's why it's slightly awkward - and sometimes even offensive - for people to make points on a parallell basis, but there are some universal truths. For me, one is that negotiation should never be discarded. These people will not give up. Cave in to terrorists? If by that you mean give them some land, well rather soil than blood.

As for the NI unionist majority, that's true, but if there ever was a referendum, I'd imagine Ireland and the UK mainland would have to have a vote as well. Whatever happens its their money that gets spent. If they ever did all vote then I suspect the following would happen;

Northern Ireland would vote to stay under Britain - and in so doing become the first country to ever vote to be ruled by another. People in NI can't vote for the British PM, nor can they even join the Labour party.

Britain would surely drop her like a fucking stone, because people just don't care and/or don't want the hassle.

Ireland would also have a pretty large amount of people looking at the state of the province and thinking "No fucking thanks".

Is there not a Nationalist majority in Chechnya i.e. most Chechans want to break free from Russian rule?

That and why exactly Russia want the place so badly are two things I've never really had satisfactorily answered. Colonialism isn't worth this fucking hassle, surely and even when they mention the oil routes, it seems unconvincing. They mainly go close to Chechenya, and anyway they're more under threat from her now, when the two are in deadlock. Wouldn't a happier Chechnya pose less of a threat to Russia's interests? I genuinely can't decide. But I do think negotiation has to happen.

*For the record, Carrie said something along the lines of "Men and women are like the situation in Northern Ireland; both sides cut from the same cloth but got lost somewhere along the way." Yeah, that and Unionists love watching sports on TV with a beer, while Nationalists prefer buying lots of shoes.

[mr suit]

From you an Islamic point of view, you could argue that headscarf isn't worn as a religious symbol... wearing it is an act of modesty which is followed by Islam. The point behind wearing a cross and the skullcap is purely to show that you follow that faith.

not true... the Jewish religion dictates that the blokey's head has to be covered... for a multitude of reasons, you have to cover yer head even if you're home alone.



i think we need to look at the root causes of the militants' actions. blaming the acitivists for their methods or asking them to have any moral resposibility for their actions smacks of cultural imperialism.

the French should change their policy to be in line with what the freedom fighters want. no? if the French didn't pass the law, there would be no "terrorism" directed towards them. the response seems to be the simple one.

change the law on headscarves.

[mr suit]

leaving irony to one side, on March the 16th of this year

fair points thatmuch,

just as an epilogue to what i was saying, i've just heard that some islamic fundamentalists have phoned in threats over in France (a country, which of course did not support the invasion of Iraq), apparently as a response to the banning of headscarves in state schools.

links aplenty here

i was totally against the headscarf ban, i know that many VWs (including those further to the "left" than me on such issues) were in favour of it.

what would be wrong for either of us to do would be to threaten civilian lives as a means of attempting to alter government policy, it simply isn't on.

if France is hit by bombings as a result of the ban, i think it would be distasteful to regard it as "blowback" for their intervening in private lives of Muslims. Muslims from abroad may well want to bomb France to show their solidarity with their brothers and sisters, but if such a thing were to happen, i think the last thing the French government should do is look at their policy on headscarves as a result of such intimidation. such things legitimise terror as a reasonable pressure-group tactic for altering the minds and composition of governments.

[skibz]

UPDATE

French hostages in Iraq handed over to group "in favour of releasing them"

Note that today was the day the new law was introduced in France.  Coincidence?

[Kendo Nagasaki]

The French government has a long tradition of 'paying-off' kidnappers/captors  in politically sensitive incidents.  I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case here as well.

[PyramidHead]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13211973,00.html

The gunmen tried to escape from the school and soldiers opened fire.

TV footage is showing people running screaming from the building. Many of the children are naked and caked in blood.

Oh, and one of the released hostages reckons there were nearer 1,500 people in the school than the offically quoted 300. Fuck.

[Mediocre Rich]

For a start, if there's one thing that the NI situation has taught anyone it's the overwhelming difference that negotiation does make.

What did we negotiate exactly?  

NI is still part of Britain last time I looked at a map.

I think it has a lot more to do with Omagh as you say, and the fact that Ireland has become economically a lot better of.

Most hot beds of terrorism seem to come from areas where the populous has a large sense of disaffection.  And the most disaffected people are usually the poor.  If the Chechens were rolling in cash I don't think that they would be quite so up in arms would they?  If a Palestinian had a fat wad in his pocket, Sky TV and a nice car I don't think he would be quite so arsed about blowing himself up or who lived next door.

When your down you look for people to blame (often rightly).  The best move is not to give in to terrorist organisations but to starve them of the oxygen of dissatisfaction.

[Cliche Guevara]

For a start, if there's one thing that the NI situation has taught anyone it's the overwhelming difference that negotiation does make.

What did we negotiate exactly?  

NI is still part of Britain last time I looked at a map.

I think it has a lot more to do with Omagh as you say, and the fact that Ireland has become economically a lot better of.

Most hot beds of terrorism seem to come from areas where the populous has a large sense of disaffection.  And the most disaffected people are usually the poor.  If the Chechens were rolling in cash I don't think that they would be quite so up in arms would they?  If a Palestinian had a fat wad in his pocket, Sky TV and a nice car I don't think he would be quite so arsed about blowing himself up or who lived next door.

When your down you look for people to blame (often rightly).  The best move is not to give in to terrorist organisations but to starve them of the oxygen of dissatisfaction.

Sinn Féin were given a voice in power in return for the I.R.A. lessening it's violent activity. Under the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement prisoners ("of war") were released in return for peace. The Irish government removed Clauses 1 and 2 from the Irish constitution removing it's claim over the state of Northern Ireland. The South was to have more of a say in the governing of N.I. to keep Nationalists happy and a new police body has been set up to replace the "sectarian" R.U.C. It has also been agreed by both sides that the only way a United Ireland will ever occur is through a democratic vote. It has been made clear to military groups that violence is not the answer any more. All that has been as a result of negotiations and has helped create and maintain peace. Peace is what has been negotiated.

Of course there is a truth in what you say though. People's improved economic position and the education and mass employment of Nationalists has led to them turning their backs on more extreme measures or supporting more extreme acts. The situation isn't as bad for Nationalists now as it was in the past. The situation has improved so drastically for Nationalists that even if there was a Catholic majority or a majority who considered themselves Nationalist, that would not guarentee a majority vote for a United Ireland as some Nationalists, many even, would probably vote to keep with the U.K. rather than let the Irish government take over. After all the U.K. employs them, offers them a free education and healthcare. The Irish Republic on the other hand does not even offer free healthcare. Nationalists have become more acceptant of the British government it seems due to an improved standard of living, which many feel is better than the standard of living in the South. Many citizens in the South don't want the burden of the North placed on them anyway. Nationalists in the North are somewhat isolated, even by those who they would view as "their own" in the Republic.

I find it funny that the ruling party in Ireland, Fianna Faíl, calls itself the Republican party even after removing Clauses 1 and 2 from the constitution. Seems somewhat contradictory of them.

I saw Dick Cheney speaking at the Republican Convention there last night and he poked fun at John Kerry for wanting to wage a more sensitive war on terror. If we're going to see another four years of heavy-handed anti-terrosist action I can't really see much improvement in the West/Middle East divide. I understand Kerry has been vague on how he would operate his more sensitive war but surely dialogue and negotiation is the answer rather than more war and killing. I don't think that gets anyone anywhere.

Have the two French hostages been freed yet then?

[rjpeters]

Have the two French hostages been freed yet then?

They've been handed over to another group, not sure who, but it's believed they are going to hand them over to the French authorities in Iraq soon.