Batman: The Killing Joke

[Glebe]

Mark Hamill on THE KILLING JOKE's R Rating - Star Wars Celebration 2016.

My Inner Geek just exploded.

NEW PAGE SMILE!

[thugler]

This is out in the usual places.

[Glebe]

First review I've come across... very positive, so maybe the shonky animation isn't too much of a turn-off. Despite considering myself a Batfan, I've actually not watched any of the Batman animated movies. I dunno if I'll get round to watching this anytime soon.

[Bored of Canada]

I just saw it at the cinema today as some other plans fell through so thought may as well. The animation was whatever but it just likes any of the other slightly anime inspired batman cartoons.

It was fine. I didn't realise they were going to add anything but there's a "prologue" thing all about Batgirl. But basically the whole thing is like watching two episodes of a tv show back to back. I see what they're trying to do with it as it fleshes her out a bit more for people like me who don't read batman comics, to stop her being entirely a gross plot device.

It was what I expected. Alright. Not great. Not bad.

I think the only real thing it improves upon is the joker's jokes. They're bits delivered instead of just reading them. The final frame is also changed which is the major thing that stuck with me from the comic.

[Bored of Canada]

I think I really like the images from the Killing Joke more than the story. That's what makes it memorable but the garish colours and inconsistent art styles have been sanded away into somethiny that's just a bit whatever.

[neveragain]

I'm not a fan admittedly but the only worthwhile part of that was Mark Hammill's performance. The rest were reet rubbish.

[Rev]

The final frame is also changed which is the major thing that stuck with me from the comic.

I'm not familiar with the comics, but I have read this one, because every arsehole has.  Once we get to the story itself it's slavishly accurate, until the end.  They want to maintain the ambiguity, of course, but they could have done that by sticking to the original style.

Spoiler alert

Joker stops laughing way earlier than Batman.  Dead.  Fucking dead, that guy.

[close]

[Dr Rock]

So I have read online they have revealed what the Moebius Chair told Batman when he asked for The Joker's true name. The answer?

Spoiler alert

There are three Jokers.

[close]

Sounds stupid.

[SavageHedgehog]

Speaking as someone who hasn't read the book (or almost any graphic novels, I've read the fairly obscure Batman: Year Two strangely), or indeed seen an animated Batman film since Mystery of the Batwoman over a decade ago I enjoyed it. That said, it was pretty obvious where the "new stuff" ended and the adaptation began, and while I understand that they wanted to make as direct an adaptation of the book as possible (which from other's comments I understand it mostly achieves), I feel it would have been a bit more successful as a film in its own right were there some overlap between the two.

[SavageHedgehog]

Also I did cringe at some of the "adult" dialogue in the second half, which perhaps hasn't aged well now that society generally accepts adults enjoying these things.

[DukeDeMondo]

It's been getting a couple good slaps on the nose from The Guardian, an no mistake.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/26/batman-sexism-the-killing-joke-remake-source-material?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=fb_a-film_b-gdnfilm#link_time=1469549096

An from a month ago or so:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/15/batmans-killing-joke-and-its-edgy-storyline-comeback-alan-moore

[lazarou]

It wasn't supposed to be this way. In theory, the additional Batgirl material was supposed to provide a counterweight to the casual misogyny in The Killing Joke. In Alan Moore's version, Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl, is casually shot by the Joker and crippled as a way of tormenting Batman and Barbara's dad, Commissioner Gordon. Harming women to advance the emotional development of some dude is a wearisome comic-book plot staple, and producer Bruce Timms promised that the cartoon wouldn't follow that same old script.

"We thought if we were going to expand this to feature length, we didn't want to just pad out the original story," Timms said. "So we took that opportunity to basically tell a Batgirl story, which we don't often get a chance to do these days. And it was great, because we could spend more time with her as a character and get to understand what she's all about and how she's similar to Batman in some ways, and really different in others."

Now hang on a minute, hold the fucking phone. That's just not on.

Bruce Timms?

[Glebe]

It's been getting a couple good slaps on the nose from The Guardian, an no mistake.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/26/batman-sexism-the-killing-joke-remake-source-material?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=fb_a-film_b-gdnfilm#link_time=1469549096

That scene sounds utterly awful. What the fuck were they thinking of?

[Dannyhood91]

First review I've come across... very positive, so maybe the shonky animation isn't too much of a turn-off. Despite considering myself a Batfan, I've actually not watched any of the Batman animated movies. I dunno if I'll get round to watching this anytime soon.

Have you seen Mask of The Phantasm? Best Superhero film we've had to date.
https://youtu.be/TjAFbEP0wK4
This scene always got me as a kid.

[Glebe]

It's been getting a couple good slaps on the nose from The Guardian, an no mistake.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/26/batman-sexism-the-killing-joke-remake-source-material?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=fb_a-film_b-gdnfilm#link_time=1469549096

That writer has followed that article up with this:

Why violence against women in film is not the same as violence against men.

We haven't really moved on that much, have we?

[BritishHobo]

You do wonder why they really felt the need to adapt this instead of just coming up with a new Batman story.

Moore's problem with The Killing Joke seems to be that comics learned the wrong lesson for it - imitating its mood and story rather than its desire to do something new and different. Indeed, this seems to be the new DC Rebirth's attitude to Watchmen; that instead of following its lead and doing fresh, interesting takes on superhero stories, DC comics just aped the dark, moody style of it. So why, for the first(?) animated Batman film to get a cinema release, have they just reheated this of-its-time comic book?

[Kelvin]

You do wonder why they really felt the need to adapt this instead of just coming up with a new Batman story.

Moore's problem with The Killing Joke seems to be that comics learned the wrong lesson for it - imitating its mood and story rather than its desire to do something new and different. Indeed, this seems to be the new DC Rebirth's attitude to Watchmen; that instead of following its lead and doing fresh, interesting takes on superhero stories, DC comics just aped the dark, moody style of it. So why, for the first(?) animated Batman film to get a cinema release, have they just reheated this of-its-time comic book?

Well, a less well known story would never have got a cinema release in the first place, as its the name recognition that has generated this level of interest in the film and made it worth their while releasing it in theaters. Have we had threads for any of the other animated films? No, of course not. The name matters.

As for why they adapted it, rather than telling a new story: there have already been many new stories in their animation line, and I don't see why, in principle, they shouldn't be allowed to tell straight adaptions of much loved comic-books. It's a chance to hear famous lines spoken, or famous images come to life. That they (apparently) flubbed it, doesn't mean they were wrong to attempt it.   

Also, just as an aside, you say that Rebirth has aped the dark moody style of Watchmen, but surely it' the opposite: Rebirth has been DC's public climb-down from a darker, grittier continuity, in order to return to a brighter, more optimistic continuity that many fans have been calling for.   

[Dr Rock]

You do wonder why they really felt the need to adapt this instead of just coming up with a new Batman story.

Moore's problem with The Killing Joke seems to be that comics learned the wrong lesson for it - imitating its mood and story rather than its desire to do something new and different.

What is notably new and different about The Killing Joke compared to many Batman stories that had previously been published? I think it's more that's a gripping story with superlative art. There's nothing really ground-breaking about it (aside from that it was released as a 'graphic novel' when that format was in its infancy), and is less kid friendly than a lot of comics (but there had been a lot of comics aimed at 'mature audiences' from Marvel & DC for quite a while).

Why do it? Lots of comic fans wanted The Killing Joke made into an animated feature, not a new or different Batman story. Seemed like a safe bet.

[BritishHobo]

Also, just as an aside, you say that Rebirth has aped the dark moody style of Watchmen, but surely it' the opposite: Rebirth has been DC's public climb-down from a darker, grittier continuity, in order to return to a brighter, more optimistic continuity that many fans have been calling for.   

Sorry, I may have worded that awkwardly. I meant that Rebirth is an attempt to move on from comics aping Watchmen, not an attempt itself. That, as you say, it's trying to do something different, because they're arguing that that's held comics back. That's why I think dredging The Killing Joke up again is daft, because their own comics universe is actively trying to move away from an era purportedly bogged down by the desire to keep up the tone of Watchmen/The Killing Joke.

[DukeDeMondo]

So why, for the first(?) animated Batman film to get a cinema release, have they just reheated this of-its-time comic book?

It's the first of this recent crop far as I know, but it's not the first ever. Mask of the Phantasm had a theatrical release. It didn't do very well, mind you, even though folk will tell you it's the best Batman film.[nb]They're wrong, the best Batman film is Batman Returns[/nb]

[DukeDeMondo]

I watched this yesterday, I thought it battered along at a right old lick and was generally pretty solid. The batgirl stuff at the start is unnecessary and, as one of the articles linked above pointed out, in trying to salvage her arc it actually makes things worse in painting her as this feckless, reckless, over-excitable groupie just waiting to get what's coming to her.

I guess being the author of your own destruction and having things happen because you made them happen is preferable to just being a pretty wee thing floating about while Big Men do Big Men things to each other and to you, but it makes subsequent plot turns far more - yes, problematic! - than they might otherwise have been. 

I watched Dark Knight Returns Part 1 as well and largely enjoyed it, except for the mutants. The mutants are crap. Shitty looking Class of 1999 by way of Road Warrior character designs, the big one that looks he's wondered in out the wrong comic, boring tank chasing shit. I hope they have a small part to play in Part 2, if any.

Maybe I'll watch the Year One number after this. Is that any good? I may have asked that before, perhaps on this very thread.

[Kelvin]

The mutant design is straight out of the comic, where it definitely works better - as does the mutant slang. They do appear occasionally in part 2, but not much.

Year One is really good, I think, although many people dislike how much of the comic was cut to make it work as a film. For me, though, it's one of the best DC animated movies out there.   

[The Region Legion]

Ironically, it does indeed sound as if they've made it actually sexist when the original wasn't at all. "Hurr durr muh tropes" - nah, it's just that the worst thing that a man can conceive of is not harm to them or another man, it's harm to a woman - any woman - but particularly a wife or daughter. That's why this is a "trope" - because it's accurate. Do these people really want to remove that concept from the collective social conciousness?

[lazarou]

So does that make the mindboggling "Killing Joke" scene in the Dark Knight porn parody (fairly SFW link there) effectively canon now?

[Custard]

Despite the mixed reviews, I must admit I felt a massive pang of excitement when my copy was in the post today. It's that "limited edition" blu ray box jobby, with the little Joker inside. Bloody lavvley

[Spiteface]

The mutant design is straight out of the comic, where it definitely works better - as does the mutant slang. They do appear occasionally in part 2, but not much.

Year One is really good, I think, although many people dislike how much of the comic was cut to make it work as a film. For me, though, it's one of the best DC animated movies out there.   

Do they? It seemed rather complete to me. Why hasn't Bryan Cranston played Jim Gordon in live action? I liked him in Year One, and it just makes so much sense to me. Actually, I'd very much like to see Eliza Dushku in a Catwoman outfit based on that logic (and other shallower reasons). Nearest I'll ever get to that is Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, I suppose...

I watched Killing Joke over the weekend, and it works best when it sticks to the source material, so skip the prologue. The mid-credits scene was a nice touch though, and did more for Barbara than the stuff at the beginning.

[Kelvin]

Do they? It seemed rather complete to me.

I haven't read the comic yet, so don't know how fair the criticism is, but the two most common complaints I've heard surrounding Year One are the performance of the actor playing Bruce (who I think is fine, considering the version of the character he's playing), and the way the film condenses the plot and skips forward in time quiet a bit. For me, though, the only section that really suffers from feeling rushed is the final showdown.

[DukeDeMondo]

Year One is really good, I think, although many people dislike how much of the comic was cut to make it work as a film. For me, though, it's one of the best DC animated movies out there.   

I watched Year One today an liked it a lot. My favourite of the bunch, I'd say. Are any of the Superman ones as good as that? I'm pretty sure this question was asked and answered on here recently, but I can't remember where.

[Kelvin]

The animated film version of All Star Superman is probably the best. But although it's good, and looks really nice, it's pretty disjointed as a result of the work it's adapting.

Other than that, the Brainiac film (Superman: Unbound) is okay, but has a really horrible design for Superman, and isn't in the same league as Year One, or even All Star Superman.

I assume you've watched the two parts of the The Dark Knight Returns adaption?     

[checkoutgirl]

I watched this the other day and I'm not sure why. The reviews weren't great and the story is very run of the mill if you've any familiarity with Batman at all. The only bit I liked was the last 45 seconds of it. I've downloaded Assault on Arkham which should be an improvement hopefully.