Masters of the Air (Band of Biggles)

[buzby]

Episode 3 Spoilers:

*

Spoiler alert

the falling airman being chopped in two by the plane wing was an especially horrific detail - is that drawn from the source material or did someone make it up? I have a vague memory from The Cruel Sea of a shipwrecked sailor laconically shouting "Taxi!" up at the warship steaming past him and his doomed shipmates, which similarly seems so outlandish that it must have actually happened.

[close]

Spoiler alert

It's a bending of the truth - there are stories of falling crewmen being hit by wings or tailplanes and somersaulting through the air, but not being cut in two (a B17's wing leading edge is very thick).

There are plenty of historical inaccuracies in the show that presumably have been made for the sake of drama, such as how the German fighters used anti-aircraft rockets (they were a stand-off weapon, fired at a range of 1000m to allow the fighters to stay out of range fo the bomber's guns) , and the circumstances of Curtis Biddick's death.

The aircraft, 'Escape Kit' (in which Biddick and his bombardier were deputising for it's regular crew) was hit by cannon fire from German fighters on the right side fuselage and cockpit area. The top turret gunner/flight engineer and radio operator were likely either mortally wounded if not killed outright and the oxygen cylinders exploded, filling the cockpit with an oxygen fire. The intercom system was also taken out. The rear crew (tail gunner, waist gunners and ball turret gunner) saw the explosion and took the decision to bail out through the rear hatch. The bombardier and navigator in the nose dived through the fire and bailed out via the forward escape hatch, with both suffering severe burns. They all became POWs for the rest of the war.

The co-pilot, Richard Snyder, was seen by other pilots in the formation climbing out of the hole torn in the flaming cockpit onto the wing and deploying his parachute, but he was hit by the tailplane and then his parachute wrapped around it. His body was then dragged behind the aircraft as it went into a spiral dive into the ground. There was no discussion between the crew or heroic attempt to save the aircraft and mortally wounded co-pilot.

As an aside, the CGI for that crash sequence and explosion was really poor, like something from an early 2000s PC flight simulator. The DCS combat flight sim does a better job at modellling crashes than that.

[close]

[A Hat Like That]

Yeah, just to repeat the comments. It was two moments of quiet that got me about Episode 3: Mainly, the scene with the carnage in front - there's so much you just can't take it all in. Second, there's this moment of silence in that crash where the engines momentarily cut out - just enough to realise what's happened and what's next.

The explosion CGI was terrible.

[13 schoolyards]

Military records at the time repeatedly describe an exploding B-17 as "looking like some shit special effect from 60-odd years in the future", so maybe it was spot-on

[gilbertharding]

I have a vague memory from The Cruel Sea of a shipwrecked sailor laconically shouting "Taxi!" up at the warship steaming past him and his doomed shipmates, which similarly seems so outlandish that it must have actually happened.

There's a book called The Real Cruel Sea, which is a pretty thick, and rather grueling, paperback about the Battle of the Atlantic, in which my actual Grandad's memoirs are quoted as a source.

I know that, rationally, there is nothing for me to be proud about - I mean, I am a complete failure, but nevertheless...

[Inspector Norse]

Episode 3 Spoilers

I'm fine with dramatic licence but reading this it's actually a bit sirprising they didn't show what really happened -

Spoiler alert

the co-pilot's grisly fate would have been effectively shocking, and I don't think they'd lose anything by having Keoghan go down trying to make a crash landing. Maybe they thought it made more sense dramatically for him to have an actual person to save.

[close]

*

Spoiler alert

the falling airman being chopped in two by the plane wing was an especially horrific detail - is that drawn from the source material or did someone make it up? I have a vague memory from The Cruel Sea of a shipwrecked sailor laconically shouting "Taxi!" up at the warship steaming past him and his doomed shipmates, which similarly seems so outlandish that it must have actually happened.

[close]

It reminded me of the scene in an early episode of Band of Brothers where a German soldier gets stuck under a tank and his head gets crushed: on the one hand yes, some memorable violence, blackly comic if that's how your mind works, but on the other hand effective shorthand for establishing that war is fucking awful.

[buzby]

I'm fine with dramatic licence but reading this it's actually a bit sirprising they didn't show what really happened -

Spoiler alert

the co-pilot's grisly fate would have been effectively shocking, and I don't think they'd lose anything by having Keoghan go down trying to make a crash landing. Maybe they thought it made more sense dramatically for him to have an actual person to save.

[close]

I think it was for practical reasons, mostly that it would have been very difficult to film and/or would have cost too much. It would have required a second, damaged B17 cockpit set (they only built one for the entire series) and a shot-up exterior fuselage/wing section set, not to mention all the safety and rigging for explosion/fire effects and stuntmen in a confined space if they didn't want to do it using CGI (which given how the explosion turned out, we should be thankful for).

It should be remembered that for the filming of Memphis Belle in 1989, David Puttnam assembled 5 flying B17s, two from the US, two from France and one from the UK, along with seven P51D Mustangs and four Hispano Aviación HA-1112 Buchóns (a Rolls Royce Merlin-powered licenced copy of the Me109G built after WW2 for the Spanish Air Force - these aircraft were bought from Spain and restored to flying conditon for the Battle Of Britain film).

One of the French B17s crashed on takeoff when an engine failed and was destroyed by the subsequent fire while filming at RAF Binbrook, but fortunately the crew and camera operators all managed to escape with minor injuries. The wheels-up landing crash shown in the film was done using a large-scale RC model.

The model work in that film is still more convincing than the CGI in this series.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Episode 3 Spoilers:

Spoiler alert

The co-pilot, Richard Snyder, was seen by other pilots in the formation climbing out of the hole torn in the flaming cockpit onto the wing and deploying his parachute, but he was hit by the tailplane and then his parachute wrapped around it. His body was then dragged behind the aircraft as it went into a spiral dive into the ground.

[close]

Christ, that's some grim slapstick.

I'm fine with dramatic licence but reading this it's actually a bit sirprising they didn't show what really happened -

Spoiler alert

the co-pilot's grisly fate would have been effectively shocking, and I don't think they'd lose anything by having Keoghan go down trying to make a crash landing. Maybe they thought it made more sense dramatically for him to have an actual person to save.

[close]

I read a little more around it and

Spoiler alert

apparently Riddick stayed with the plane to try and steer it away from crashing onto a town. The man deserves kudos for that. Surely, even if viewed narrowly from the point of view of making a TV episode, that would work even better than him trying to save a crewmate, wouldn't it?

[close]

Anyway, I'm about to strap in for Episode 4.

[buzby]

I read a little more around it and

Spoiler alert

apparently Riddick stayed with the plane to try and steer it away from crashing onto a town. The man deserves kudos for that. Surely, even if viewed narrowly from the point of view of making a TV episode, that would work even better than him trying to save a crewmate, wouldn't it?

[close]

Spoiler alert

The reports from Biddick'surviving crewmembers stated that Escape Kit either exploded in mid air after they bailed out, or exploded on impact with the ground. Alfred Grislawski, the German BF109G pilot who shot it down, says he saw it go out of control and spin into the ground, where it exploded. All the eyewitnesses agree that the nose section was in tatters and engulfed by flames, so if Biddick was still alive he would have had little or no control over the aircraft.

As an aside, due to the blunder of the bomber group tasked to attack Schweinfurt not being trained to do instrument takeoffs and so having to wait for the fog over thwir bases to clear, Grislawski was able to land, rearm and refuel, and then be scrambled again in the afternoon to attack the formation heading to Schweinfurt, where he shot down a second B17.

There were 2 B17s from Buck Cleven's Low Sqiadron formation that were shot down and crashed near the villages of Pülfringen and Schweinberg on the 17th of August - 'Escape Kit' and 'Tweedle-O-Twill', which was piloted by Lt. Ronald W. Braley. It was Braley's aircraft that according to a local eyewitness overflew the village of Pülfringen before the order to bail out was given (it had been struck by cannon fire in the #1 engine, setting the wing and tail section on fire, and in the radio room, killing the Radio Operator James R. Bair). The surviving crew successfully bailed out and became PoWs. Bair's remains were buried with the remains of the 4 crew recovered from the wreckage of Biddick's aircraft at the catholic church in Pülfringen, and all were exhumed after the was and transported back to the US to be reburied in a military cemetery.

I have also read that account that mentions Biddick purposely missing the village and it seems to be at odds with the closest eyewitness accounts. I think in that instance the account of what happened with Braley's aircraft has been conflated with the fate of Biddick's aircraft, as they both crashed near each other at the same time.

[close]

[Dex Sawash]

shipwrecked sailor laconically shouting "Taxi!" up at the warship steaming past him and his doomed shipmates,

There's a bit in Blackhawk Down (book, not sure about film) where a couple guys shelter from fire under/behind a downed Blackhawk and holes are appearing in the helichocter and one of them memes "stay away from the cans, somebody hates the cans" from The Jerk. Not all of them died so might be true. I would die happily right there if I had delivered that.

[Jim_MacLaine]

Episode 4's a bit dull.

The constant self mythologizing is also a bit tedious as is Elvis's gormless expression throughout.

That shot from episode 3 of the air carnage was amazing though.

[HMS Beanspiller]

Agreed, it was a jarring change of pace, though I did like the way they didn't show what happened in the air on this mission, just the bombers heading out and then returning, or not.

Spoiler alert

So is Major Elvis dead then? Or are we going to discover in a later episode he bailed out and is behind enemy lines?

If he has bought the farm, it's quite clever casting to make you think that his character couldn't possibly die early but then does.

[close]

[Jim_MacLaine]

Spoiler alert

I must have not been paying attention as it started with Elvis and tache in North Africa then suddenly they were back in blighty.

[close]

[HMS Beanspiller]

Spoiler alert

yeah they didn't show them returning to England.

Oh no, was the nice but slightly useless airsick navigator in Elvis' crew? I liked him.

[close]

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Spoiler alert

The reports from Biddick'surviving crewmembers stated that Escape Kit either exploded in mid air after they bailed out, or exploded on impact with the ground. Alfred Grislawski, the German BF109G pilot who shot it down, says he saw it go out of control and spin into the ground, where it exploded. All the eyewitnesses agree that the nose section was in tatters and engulfed by flames, so if Biddick was still alive he would have had little or no control over the aircraft.

As an aside, due to the blunder of the bomber group tasked to attack Schweinfurt not being trained to do instrument takeoffs and so having to wait for the fog over thwir bases to clear, Grislawski was able to land, rearm and refuel, and then be scrambled again in the afternoon to attack the formation heading to Schweinfurt, where he shot down a second B17.

There were 2 B17s from Buck Cleven's Low Sqiadron formation that were shot down and crashed near the villages of Pülfringen and Schweinberg on the 17th of August - 'Escape Kit' and 'Tweedle-O-Twill', which was piloted by Lt. Ronald W. Braley. It was Braley's aircraft that according to a local eyewitness overflew the village of Pülfringen before the order to bail out was given (it had been struck by cannon fire in the #1 engine, setting the wing and tail section on fire, and in the radio room, killing the Radio Operator James R. Bair). The surviving crew successfully bailed out and became PoWs. Bair's remains were buried with the remains of the 4 crew recovered from the wreckage of Biddick's aircraft at the catholic church in Pülfringen, and all were exhumed after the was and transported back to the US to be reburied in a military cemetery.

I have also read that account that mentions Biddick purposely missing the village and it seems to be at odds with the closest eyewitness accounts. I think in that instance the account of what happened with Braley's aircraft has been conflated with the fate of Biddick's aircraft, as they both crashed near each other at the same time.

[close]

Top info as always, Buzby, thank you. Given that they are clearly taking liberties with events anyway,

Spoiler alert

I still think going with that conflation would have made for a more heroic ending for Biddick's character. The decision they took neither reflects the reality nor is as satisfying dramatically

[close]

.

Agreed, it was a jarring change of pace, though I did like the way they didn't show what happened in the air on this mission, just the bombers heading out and then returning, or not.

Agreed that keeping out of the sky was an interesting choice to make for this episode, even if I'm not entirely convinced the change of pace was effective.

Edit: I'm not sure I'm right about what I'd originally written here, but if I am, it's a pretty big spoiler, so I'm deleting it.

[buzby]

Spoiler alert

I must have not been paying attention as it started with Elvis and tache in North Africa then suddenly they were back in blighty.

[close]

Spoiler alert

yeah they didn't show them returning to England.

[close]

Spoiler alert

The crews tasked with bombing the Messerschmitt factory in Regensburg were on what was called a 'shuttle' mission. They were fitted with long-range auxiliary fuel tanks and were to continue south after hitting the target and land in Libya. After repairs, rearming and refueling, they were then to fly back to their bases in the UK a week later via a 'milk run' bombing raid (where they expected little enemy opposition) on the German maritime patrol airfield at Bordeaux–Mérignac.

Buck Cleven's aircraft was pretty badly shot up on the Regensburg raid, losing and engine and it's electric and hydraulic systems, and although it made it to Libya, the Radio Operator Tech Sgt Norman Smith had been killed and the Flight Engineer/Top Turret Gunner Tech Sgt. James Parks and Bombardier Lt. Norris Norman were both injured, and did not fly on the return mission to the UK.

[close]

Oh no, was the nice but slightly useless airsick navigator in Elvis' crew? I liked him.[/spoiler]

Spoiler alert

Major Harry Crosby? No, he wasn't part of Cleven's crew. Crosby was the Group Navigator, who planned the route for each mission for the whole bomb group, and would fly in the Group Lead aircraft. For the Regensburg and Bremen missions he and Major Jack Kidd, the Group Leader, flew in the aircraft of Captain Everett Blakely.

Major Cleven was the Commanding Officer of the squadron, so didn't have his own aircraft or crew, he flew as an extra pilot in whichever was the lead aircraft of the squadron for the mission. On the Regensburg mission it meant the regular crew's Captain Norman Scott then became his co-pilot, and the regular co-pilot 2nd Lt. Kenneth Menzie was sent down into the nose to man the machine gun that was usually part of the bombardier's job.

After returning from the Regensburg raid, Scott, Menzie and the Navigator 1st Lt. Donald Strout were all transferred to other units. Scott and Strout were sent to Bovingdon to indoctrinate replacement crews for the 100th Bomb Group, Menzie along with the remainder of Scott's crew was transferred to the 482nd Bomb Group (who flew 'Pathfinder' missions to mark targets for the main bomber formations) at Alconbury. This was possibly due to the bad blood between them and Cleven over his countermandering of Scott's order to bail out of the badly-damaged aircraft.

[close]

Spoiler alert

So is Major Elvis dead then? Or are we going to discover in a later episode he bailed out and is behind enemy lines?

If he has bought the farm, it's quite clever casting to make you think that his character couldn't possibly die early but then does.

[close]

Like the RAF's Bomber Command crews, the likelihood of an USAAF 8th Air Force bomber crew reaching the 25 missions required to be taken off front line duties was slim, hence why the Memphis Belle and it's crew were made such a fuss of at the time.

In Band Of Brothers, the story followed the personnel of Easy Company from training, through D-Day, France, Belgium and to the liberation of Germany. Some of the characters came and went, but the story was following the same core group through a significant period of history.

When I heard that they were doing a series based on the 8th Air Force (and The Bloody 100th in particular), I always thought that because of the casualty/PoW rate they would have to concentrate on a very short period of the war, and even then it would be a lot more difficult to make the story easy to get into or follow as there was not going to be that consistent core of characters throughout the story.

[There Be Rumblings]

When I heard that they were doing a series based on the 8th Air Force (and The Bloody 100th in particular), I always thought that because of the casualty/PoW rate they would have to concentrate on a very short period of the war, and even then it would be a lot more difficult to make the story easy to get into or follow as there was not going to be that consistent core of characters throughout the story.

That is exactly the same issue that The Pacific had. The horrific reality was that people survived such a short time in that part of the war, that they realised when writing the show that it wouldn't be realistic to have a core group who you were able to stay with from beginning to end as you did with Winters, Nixon etc in BoB. So they made the creative choice to reflect that reality, where there was no time to get attached to someone before that person was gone and it was onto the next one, which was historically accurate but made the show less compelling from a purely narrative point of view. It might be that this series has the same issue, though it does force you to reflect even more on the real human cost that underpins the story they're trying to tell, beyond the whizz bang aerial sequences.

[RFT]

Spoiler alert

yeah they didn't show them returning to England.

Oh no, was the nice but slightly useless airsick navigator in Elvis' crew? I liked him.

[close]

Spoiler alert

I'm sure I heard them say in the debriefing at the end of episode 4 that Croz's plane went down.

however:

Spoiler alert

The apple tv+ menu blurb for episode 5 says he gets a promotion but it comes at a heavy cost.

[close]

[close]

[buzby]

Spoiler alert

I'm sure I heard them say in the debriefing at the end of episode 4 that Croz's plane went down.

however:

Spoiler alert

The apple tv+ menu blurb for episode 5 says he gets a promotion but it comes at a heavy cost.

[close]

[close]

Potential Episode 5 spoiler (though not really as they have already mentioned it in the episode description):

Spoiler alert

The B17 he was on, 'Just-a-Snappin' made a forced landing after being heavily damaged on the Bremen mission, but in the UK just as they made the made the Norfolk coast, about 35 miles from their home base. It had been chased all the way back to friendly airspace by German fighters, and the B17's gunners claimed to have shot down 12 of them, but were officially credited with 9, a record that went unsurpassed for the rest of the war.

Crosby was already acting as the Group Navigator prior to the Regensburg mission. which is the only promotion I can think of.

[close]

[markburgle]

This is fucking shit. Been looking forward to this for years. Thought it would do for air-war movies what Ryan did for infantry movies, just bringing that shock of modern-style grit and realism, but the dialogue, characters and acting are Pearl Harbour level, there's a real failure to evoke the atmosphere of the times, the effects are wank and the 2.5 minute title sequence is FUCKING RIDICULOUS.

It feels like it was made by people who haven't watched any tv for 25 years. Zero stylistic flair, ponderous direction. First ep felt like a bad cover version of Memphis Belle ("Your target for today [pause] is Bremen" / wheels up landing / at least one other thing I've forgotten now).

The glossing over of things like how the Norden bombsight didn't even work that well (to the point day bombing was barely more effective than night bombing) isn't just annoying historically, it's annoying from a writing point of view - a failure to use details that might have added a bit more bite/interest to the scripts. I hate how the narration just boringly relays information that good writers would've found ways to convey in story/dialogue.

They probably made a mistake trying to adapt one book again, it just limits the material. Maybe they should've gone a more fictionalized route to combine more stories and characters. Or maybe they could've told the story of British bomber crews instead, which would've been far more interesting (there's a technological arc, for one thing - the evolution from  crappy 2-engine planes to 4-engine beasts).

Biggest letdown since The Stand

[13 schoolyards]

It just feels like they never figured out a storytelling angle beyond "then this happened, then this happened" - it's a greatest hits package, not an actual story with any kind of decent throughline.

Occasionally they'll almost stumble on something they want to say, like when the body count starts to rise up to slaughter house level, but even then there's nothing all that interesting going on - nobody questions whether they're actually doing any good for the war effort and aren't just civilian-slaughtering war criminals. You'd think there'd have been at least a raised eyebrow at the tactics of daylight bombing without fighter cover, but the fact there's no fighters with them over Germany hasn't even been mentioned (and the only people who've said "you guys are idiots" were that RAF bomber crew who were explicitly positioned as chumps).

Even if there's no story that can be told on a character level because everyone who's flying keeps on getting killed, why not focus a lot more on the commanding officers back at base and what they're doing to keep their doomed crews on-mission? Or the mechanics who're working on what must have seemed amazing cutting-edge technology at the time (while also being temperamental rust buckets). They get a moment or two, but then the focus swerves off to some other area with another set of characters we hardly know.

So far it's been the worst of all possible approaches, a leaden docudrama that's watchable mostly because they had shitloads of money for special effects.

[gilbertharding]

The glossing over of things like how the Norden bombsight didn't even work that well (to the point day bombing was barely more effective than night bombing) isn't just annoying historically, it's annoying from a writing point of view - a failure to use details that might have added a bit more bite/interest to the scripts.

"What we in the trade call a cock up."

[Dex Sawash]

Was excited to be an iconoclast and pronounce this show to be shit this morning. Going to reappraise now.

[Inspector Norse]

I think it's good. As has been said several times, it's not Band of Brothers, but the bits in the planes are tense and gripping even if they've not got the balance right with the characters and group stuff on the ground.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

I think the show can only redeem itself for me if one of the Bucks dies in an excruciating manner. Why the show thought I'd want to root for these two preening American bellends I do not know. I actively want them to die.

[badaids]

I've just started watching this now.  Intro with dishy pilots with the dolly birds, talk of what they'll do after the war and top bantz, then cliched opening sequence with bland inspiring music from a NatWest advert. And loads of shit CGI and exposition of course.

[Chollis]

Starting to think this is a bit shit now, novelty of the air battles has worn off and there's not much else to it. Characters are just weak. Want Ross from Friends.

[badaids]

This is terrible, really gutted because i was looking forward to it.  Outside of the tense aerial scenes the drama aspect is very poor.  I had come to the conclusion that is was because survival rates were so poor and every mission was basically exactly the same: fly somewhere, get shot to fuck, either die or return and do it again until you died or war ended.  But Buzby said it more eloquently than me up there.  There's not much scope or dramatic arc in the bombing campaign compared to d-day.  Plus there's the was the strategic air campaign a war crime or was it not thing, it remains to be seen how they deal with that debate.  Even the more generous historians hesitate and will only go as far as eulogise the crews and criticise their treatment at end of and after the war.

Mind you the Das Boot film got all those aspect spot on, nothing has captured that better other than the book the film was based on.

[Proactive]

It's sort of alright, warming to it as it goes on. Always get mad at anything that depicts big handsome yanks coming in and turning our women's heads with chocolate and tights while are brave Tommies are out there going toe to toe with Fritz though. Sneaky cunts.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

They're even taking our children and keeping them captive on a USAF base, forcing them to do menial tasks.

[badaids]

They're even taking our children and keeping them captive on a USAF base, forcing them to do menial tasks.

Hiya kiddo randomly on this wartime airbase whaddaya say we burn this runway to hell!

Gor blimey mister it's a hot 'un and make no mistakes!