Does naturalism make things funnier?

[thewomb]

Well, does it?

Personally, I think yes. The jokes still have to be as strong, but comedy is all about diffusion of tension, and if something is delivered realistically then there's greater chance for that tension to be created and its impact is raised.

I don't like being reminded I'm watching a sitcom by something happening that only ever happens in sitcoms - the more I feel like I'm an omnipresent observer of real life events unfolding, the greater the reward when the punchline kicks in.

But that's me. I don't like having to suspend my disbelief to enjoy something, and have perhaps relevantly never been a fan of fantasy / supernatural type films. The more real I believe something is, the greater impact it has, and comedy is a perfect example of this.

Everyone else?

[Bert Thung]

Get a life

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

When I watch The Young Ones, I completely and utterly believe those characters exist. I'm right there, in the house. But when I watch Nighty Night, it seems incredibly forced and I can't get 'This is supposed to be a comedy show and these people are actors' out of my head.

Suspension of belief is a strange thing. Sometimes I think it's like key signatures in music - once you're digging the tune, it doesn't matter how weird the notes are so long as the wider picture makes sense.

My favourite comedies fuse naturalistic and trad anyway. I don't think they're mutually exclusive at all.

[thewomb]

I can see that - one of the reasons I love Green Wing is its fusion of so many different kinds of comedy. Even having a romantic plot at its centre lures you in to believing and investing emotionally in the characters, which rubs nicely up against the more absurd moments.

Nighty Night isn't naturalistic, to my eyes. The Office is the most obvious and perfect example of something that is, and is infinitely funnier because of it.

I'm half-with you on the Young Ones. There's an undeniable quality to the central characters, which is possibly why I'm not so keen on all the post-modern cutaways and talking puppets.

Nothing beats a perfectly-executed Curb Your Enthusiasm storyline for me. And there's not a day goes by that I don't thank God that Trailer Park Boys has naturalistic acting - one of the greatest examples of comedy discipline ever.

[Autopsy Turvey]

'Naturalism' - what does this mean? Arthur Lowe is a sublime and sensitive performer who brought layers of conviction, depth and detail to Captain Mainwaring. Is that 'naturalism'? I've heard people describe The Office as being 'naturalistic', but surely none of those embarrassed pauses would actually happen in real life, where people don't stand around in silence looking embarrassed for ages while their boss does something wacky.

Bad News Tour - naturalistic, The Young Ones - not?

The Fall And Rise Of Reginald Perrin is surely the least naturalistic comedy of all time, but every character in it has a timelessly recognisable real-life equivalent. Something you really can't say of Nighty Night, if that's an example of naturalistic comedy. It can't be, surely?

[Banana Woofwoof]

I'm not sure what you mean.   By naturalistic I tend to think of the way something is filmed rather than performed. I believe more in characters than situation and identify something in the character- the most farcical character can have a quality that is so real and there with you.  The situations can be irrelevant but magical- I love that in things like The Young Ones or Fawlty Towers- these people I can believe in, but with something special, something that creeps out of your mind when you're half asleep or that you imagined happened, or exaggerate when you're telling a story.  I love that Arthur Putey wants to be a lion tamer, it's a childhood dream, and the dreams are within the most mundane and witless of people, and I love that.

[rudi]

but surely none of those embarrassed pauses would actually happen in real life, where people don't stand around in silence looking embarrassed for ages while their boss does something wacky.

i beg to differ, unfortunately...


Like all these types of question, it's a little bit yes, a little bit no, surely?

Life of Brian v Spinal Tap, if you will: both v funny in my eyes; one ludicrous, the other faux documentary.

[DuncanC]

I think naturalism can certainly be funny, but it isn't a comedy monosodium glutamate to sprinkle over everything we used to do and make it funnier. Father Ted, for example, is pretty much perfect as it is and naturalism wouldn't improve it a bit.

[Autopsy Turvey]

i beg to differ, unfortunately...

If David Brent was your boss, and he started doing that dance, you'd laugh and clap along and you'd talk about it up the pub for weeks afterwards. "What did he think he was doing?! What a twat!" etc. You wouldn't fall deathly silent and shuffle about uncomfortably.

Life of Brian v Spinal Tap, if you will: both v funny in my eyes; one ludicrous, the other faux documentary.

They're both as ludicrous as each other, surely! Or, in its profundity and eloquence, Life Of Brian is a lot less ludicrous than a film about a silly rock band with exploding drummers. It could be argued, anyway.

Wasn't it a sense of 'naturalism' that Mel Smith wanted to bring to Not The 9 O'Clock News?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I agree with Rudi, it has to be taken on a case by case basis. The office wouldn't work as a traditional studio based sitcom any more than South Park would in a naturalistic style. Personally, I think Curb Your Enthusiasm is rendered less funny and often downright annoying by it's use of naturalistic acting and documentary camerawork.

Edit: 2000th post, woo.

[DuncanC]

Basically, what Armando Iannucci said in one of his Oxford things about it. And why not?

[humanleech]

As Autopsy Turvey has indicated, the word 'naturalistic' is being used in about twenty-seven zillion ways on this thread, rendering it a bit pointless.

[rudi]

Mmm, that'sa fair point I guess.

In answer to your earlier post though, Autopsy, my office life is awash with long embarrassed silences. Confrontation and/or resolution is anathema in most offices, resulting in much tongue-biting and shoe-staring.

And isn't it assumed/implied that the staff in The Office do talk about what a twat Brent is when they're elsewhere...?

In a sense, that's the most 'natural' thing about The Office - the fact that nobody has the nerve (or is stupid enough) to voice what everybody's thinking.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

I don't think naturalism necessarily makes things funnier (or less funny), it's just a device.  Jokes, characters, situations, either ludicrous or recognisable make things funnier, both in "modern" comedy and "trad".

Is that not stating the obvious?

If The Office or I'm Alan Partridge were recorded in a traditional manner, the "feel" of the shows would be different certainly, but I think the quality of the writing and the performances would be apparent, and you'd still get the humour.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Actually I'd have loved to see IAP2 done in a conventional US sitcom style.

[rudi]

Is that not stating the obvious?

i think that sums it up nicely. :)

[Pinball]

As a starting point, please define naturalism.

[thewomb]

What I probably meant was realism, mainly in terms of how people talk.

Ie, naturalistic:

The Office, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Trailer Park Boys, Big Train, Peep Show, 15 Storeys High

Not-naturalistic:

The Young Ones, Nighty Night, Father Ted, Scrubs

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Peep Show's an odd one - the look is realistic, but the dialogue's actually very trad, both in delivery and content.

I can never quite believe the universe of Curb Your Enthusiasm - in my head, those characters don't really exist, it's just Larry David doing a patchy improv workshop. But Seinfeld, with its three walls and studio audience? I totally believe those people/places are real.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I don't understand the inclusion of Big Train either. After all, it's a sketch show which has naturalistic parts and parts that aren't naturalistic in the slightest.

Naturalism can't just make things funny. Just take a look at Spoons.

[thewomb]

Peep Show - I hovered over including that one. Some of the dialogue is trad, but supporting characters like Jeff and Sophie are entirely naturalistic, adding to the overall "real" feel of the thing.

Curb is totally convincing for me. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say as the on-screen relationship between Larry and Cheryl is the best "sitcom couple" ever. I've never seen husband/wife arguing portrayed so accurately before while still capturing what's funny about it.

Seinfeld is a whole other story, however. It is totally believeable, yet totally sitcom. It's a stunning achievement, how they have a gag ratio as high as any other show, with lots of witty comebacks and one-liners, yet they talk exactly as real people talk, never while watching Seinfeld do you think "Oh, that's the kind of thing someone would only say in a sitcom".

Maybe laughter is the key - as Ricky Gervais and Larry David discuss in their interview thing, there's nothing that shakes you out of the sitcom world more than a non-stop barrage of witty one-liners which no-one laughs at. In Seinfeld, Curb, The Office and Extras, people laugh at each other a lot, and they feel all the more real for it.

[thewomb]

I don't understand the inclusion of Big Train either. After all, it's a sketch show which has naturalistic parts and parts that aren't naturalistic in the slightest.

Naturalism can't just make things funny. Just take a look at Spoons.

Agreed, I'm not saying naturalism alone makes something funny, I'm saying if you've got some funny material, chances are it'll have greater impact if we're not requried to suspend our disbelief by being reminded we're watching a sitcom.

Big Train does have some out and out silly sketches, but surely it's main hook is coming up with an absurd idea and then letting it play out in a naturalistic fashion. Some people don't like this, thinking "OK I've got the punchline, move on to the next sketch already", but there's a rare kind of pleasure in watching the extended real-world reactions of the protagonists.

[rudi]

Naturalism can't just make things funny. Just take a look at Spoons.

you can't make me!

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Duck Soup would've been so much better if Groucho had mumbled his lines.

And the Larry/Cheryl relationship is so one dimensional! "Why would you do that, Larry...?" She's crap at improv. The Seinfeld/CYE axis is an interesting one. Who is the more detailed, far reaching character, with funnier lines and performances - Costanza or David? Definitely the former.

I would argue that it takes more skill to pull off 'big' comedy performances well. To make characters like Rick, Kramer or Blackadder believable and funny you need amazing stagecraft and the ability to create comic personas, as opposed to showing up and 'being yourself'.

[thewomb]

Crap at improv? You do know the entire scene about Larry leaving to play golf while Cheryl stayed to risk the terrorist attack was entirely spontaneously improvised?

The scene in 'The Group' when they're discussing permissable masturbation fantasies is wonderful. And the kind of thing you never see in any other comedy - I can't even think of any other great sitcom couples. Basil and Cybill I suppose.

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Again, they're the sort of conversations that would've been much better in Seinfeld.

[Brutus Beefcake]

I can't even think of any other great sitcom couples. Basil and Cybill I suppose.

The Meldrews for one.

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Yup. Or Gary and Dorothy.

[Bert Thung]

Bob and Thelma
The Honeymooners
Alf Garnett and Else
George and Mildred
Martin and Anne Bryce
Tom and Barbara Good
Howard and Hilda

[Marv Orange]

Terry and June