Bittersweet Symphony is fucking shit

[purlieu]

is it fuck. is it fucking fuck as like.

String sample aside, the rest of the song has nothing to do with anybody remotely related to the Stones. The vocal melody, the drums, the lyrics, whatever else is in there - Jagger and Richards getting money for those was always ridiculous. In an era when there are so many copyright cases taken to court because one song sounds like it might be vaguely in the same key as another song, I'm really happy to see them go "have your song back mate".

[DrGreggles]

Wasn't one of Ashcroft's first solo singles a rip-off of 'Reach Out (I'll Be There)'?

[a duncandisorderly]

String sample aside, the rest of the song has nothing to do with anybody remotely related to the Stones. The vocal melody, the drums, the lyrics, whatever else is in there - Jagger and Richards getting money for those was always ridiculous. In an era when there are so many copyright cases taken to court because one song sounds like it might be vaguely in the same key as another song, I'm really happy to see them go "have your song back mate".

then take the sample out & see if it's the same song without it.
better still, go back to 1995 & do it. this will a) stop it being a hit & annoying the fuck out of people who actually like music & b) save all this legal nonsense.

[popcorn]

Yeah you mock it but have you actually listened to the lyrics? Like really listened? They'll blow you away, man.

In Sega Saturn Magazine someone wrote a letter arguing that all the lyrics could be interpreted as a metaphor for Sega. Should try to find that.

[grassbath]

Surprised the song is getting so much flak tbh - even though it's off their least cool album, the Verve usually seem quite well liked on here.

[DrGreggles]

Wasn't one of Ashcroft's first solo singles a rip-off of 'Reach Out (I'll Be There)'?

https://youtu.be/msZkJLODlRo?t=25

[a duncandisorderly]

Surprised the song is getting so much flak tbh - even though it's off their least cool album, the Verve usually seem quite well liked on here.

it's no "gigolo aunt" though, is it?

[grassbath]

I mean what is?

[Johnny Yesno]

French poo records

Bit harsh, that.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

then take the sample out & see if it's the same song without it.
better still, go back to 1995 & do it. this will a) stop it being a hit & annoying the fuck out of people who actually like music & b) save all this legal nonsense.

Isn't the whole point of this thus? David Whitaker's orchestral arrangement of The Last Time is, entirely, the basis of Bittersweet Symphony by The Verve. Whitaker's arrangement sounds absolutely nothing like the Jagger/Richards composition, not even remotely, so old scrotum face and, well, the other old scrotum face have no right to claim royalties from it being sampled. They presumably agree.

I'm not sticking up for the multi-millionaire wrinkly rockers, I'm really not, but they obviously had fuck all to do with this lawsuit in the first place. It was all Ron Decline's doing. Whitaker is the victim here, a massive hit song based on his string arrangement hasn't earned him a penny.

Sorry if I'm restating the obvious, I have a cold and I've just woken up after a fitful late afternoon nap.

[Twed]

Why do all the names involved change every time a person describes the legal battle behind this song?

[Darles Chickens]

I guess you could say it really is a bittersweet symphony!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Why do all the names involved change every time a person describes the legal battle behind this song?

Ron Decline is the name of the Allen Klein character in The Rutles: All You Need is Cash. Apart from my ho-ho jokey reference to that cult comedy classic, I don't think any of the names have been changed in this thread?

[purlieu]

then take the sample out & see if it's the same song without it.

Well obviously a co-write credit makes the most sense, but given that Jagger and Richards have almost certainly had the bulk of the song's profits, it seems reasonable to give Ashcroft some money going forward.

annoying the fuck out of people who actually like music

Plenty of people in this thread seem to like the song. Do they not meet your criteria of "actually liking music"?

[Gregory Torso]

Richard Ashcroft in that video, walking, all walking, not even smiling at the pretty lady, a cool dude, too cool to wait for cars, or throw a quid at an old man. And in his dad's leather jacket and burial trousers, looking like he got locked in a cupboard in Grange Hill in the 1980s and just got out. Looking like a greyhound trying to disguise itself as Jimmy Nail. Like a newt made a wish to be Mick Jagger for one day and some witch on craigslist granted it. What a cool dude. I wish I could walk into old ladies whilst verbalising life's truths about how, it's like, bittersweet, and you're a slave, and i caint change. Computer, load up bittersweetsymphony.wav, I'm going out to jostle people because I walk my own line man, and can't no body contain me.

[grassbath]

Someone also once told me that he mouths 'fucking wog' at someone who bumps into him.

[greenman]

It's just Ashcroft. Only half the album was actually co-written as a band, the rest of the songs were initially intended to be the basis for an Ashcroft solo album. Urban Hymns was recorded in two parts, the first was before McCabe had been persuaded to return and was produced by Youth. Once McCabe returned they recorded some more tracks (which is where most of the band collaborations come from, and Neon Wilderness was a McCabe song) and did some rework on the songs from the sessions with Youth with Chris Potter producing.

The somewhat ironically named Rolling People and Come On actually date from before the original spilt and were returned to when McCabe came back.

Really that's the main negative against Bitter Sweet Symphony for me, the strings are a poor substitute for McCabe's guitar and the heavier grooves behind it from the earlier years, still though I think it has something of the appeal of that work rather than the bland balladry like Drugs Don't Work that Ashcroft stuck with from that point onwards.

[Gregory Torso]

Can we agree that ("The") Verve's All In The Mind is an absolute classic, never mind the rest of their shit?

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Richard Ashcroft in that video, walking, all walking, not even smiling at the pretty lady, a cool dude, too cool to wait for cars, or throw a quid at an old man. And in his dad's leather jacket and burial trousers, looking like he got locked in a cupboard in Grange Hill in the 1980s and just got out. Looking like a greyhound trying to disguise itself as Jimmy Nail. Like a newt made a wish to be Mick Jagger for one day and some witch on craigslist granted it. What a cool dude. I wish I could walk into old ladies whilst verbalising life's truths about how, it's like, bittersweet, and you're a slave, and i caint change. Computer, load up bittersweetsymphony.wav, I'm going out to jostle people because I walk my own line man, and can't no body contain me.

It's such a bizarre video. What's the message supposed to be? When maverick Ashcroft knocks a woman over, a passing stranger helps her to her feet and quite rightly shouts at this swaggering prick. Later on, another woman quite rightly remonstrates with him for being a swaggering prick.

As you say, it's a ghastly celebration of being an aggressively antisocial twat.

Still, nice strings sample.

[Twed]

I don't think we are supposed to be on his side. They actively put a woman being knocked over by him being a cunt in there, it's not a real thing that happened incidentally.

[DrGreggles]

At least Keith Allen wasn't there.

[Better Midlands]

Love the song & the sample, the fact that Richard Ashcroft is such a weapon makes it even better.

Big fan of a lot of Martin Glover's work too.

[a duncandisorderly]

Isn't the whole point of this thus? David Whitaker's orchestral arrangement of The Last Time is, entirely, the basis of Bittersweet Symphony by The Verve. Whitaker's arrangement sounds absolutely nothing like the Jagger/Richards composition, not even remotely, so old scrotum face and, well, the other old scrotum face have no right to claim royalties from it being sampled. They presumably agree.

I'm not sticking up for the multi-millionaire wrinkly rockers, I'm really not, but they obviously had fuck all to do with this lawsuit in the first place. It was all Ron Decline's doing. Whitaker is the victim here, a massive hit song based on his string arrangement hasn't earned him a penny.

Sorry if I'm restating the obvious, I have a cold and I've just woken up after a fitful late afternoon nap.

well, whitaker did receive some sort of settlement, from ashcroft & co, in recognition of his part in the thing. how much, when & under what circumstances I do not know, but his obit still records him as being 'pissed off'.
whatever- rules are rules. he was hired as an arranger by oldham, & back then arrangers didn't get royalties, just session fees. the publishing was owned by jagger/richards, represented (latterly) by abkco (ron decline).
so, legally at least, all of the right things happened. morally, some of the right things. maybe jagger & richards relinquished the rights after a certain number or time was up, or maybe they heard that ashcroft had sent some cash to whitaker before he died.

Well obviously a co-write credit makes the most sense, but given that Jagger and Richards have almost certainly had the bulk of the song's profits, it seems reasonable to give Ashcroft some money going forward. Plenty of people in this thread seem to like the song. Do they not meet your criteria of "actually liking music"?

yes, I think they need to acknowledge that the composition was ashcroft's doing. they ought to acknowledge whitaker's composed part themselves though.

but it's an awful song.
it progressed very little from ashcroft's original demo, which was him singing his lyrics over the oldham recording. he didn't even want to record it again- it was all glover's idea, including leaving the problem sample in there & pouring more syrup onto it (will malone, glover's stringsman).

I suspect the video brought a greater appreciation of it, because there's this surface reading of it that has ashcroft's character demonstrating an unstoppable sense of purpose, no matter what gets in his way or tries to frustrate his intentions. but in fact he's just being a dick.

'TDDW' & 'lucky man' are both much better works.

[a duncandisorderly]

Richard Ashcroft in that video, walking, all walking, not even smiling at the pretty lady, a cool dude, too cool to wait for cars, or throw a quid at an old man. And in his dad's leather jacket and burial trousers, looking like he got locked in a cupboard in Grange Hill in the 1980s and just got out. Looking like a greyhound trying to disguise itself as Jimmy Nail. Like a newt made a wish to be Mick Jagger for one day and some witch on craigslist granted it. What a cool dude. I wish I could walk into old ladies whilst verbalising life's truths about how, it's like, bittersweet, and you're a slave, and i caint change. Computer, load up bittersweetsymphony.wav, I'm going out to jostle people because I walk my own line man, and can't no body contain me.

[Icehaven]

It aleays got played a lot in indie clubs, which was ridiculous as it's completely impossible to dance to and just led to a lot of awkward slow swaying while waving hands around and trying not to get knocked sideways by the huge group roaring along in an arms-round-shoulders circle. Which is all dancing in indie clubs I spose, but this definitely made it worse. Someone should have come up with a dance to it,  "The Stride".

[a duncandisorderly]

Someone should have come up with a dance to it,  "The Stride".

a conga through hoxton, knocking people over & NOT STOPPING for anything.

kaye's piss-take, though, falling off the car. comedy timing.

https://youtu.be/KaBdajHOsSM?t=87

[Jockice]

At least Keith Allen wasn't there.

That's always a bonus.

[jobotic]

Jesus, Allen in that Vindaloo shit. What a cunt.

[sevendaughters]

am from Wigan and The Verve's homecoming was my first show and big big news to 15 year old me. ever since I've grown away from that style of music and era though I retain a strange fascination with Richard Ashcroft.¹ however, I take the Negativland view on plunder. it's The Verve's song, they made new music out of old music.

BSS was the most boring song they played at that homecoming show and I was just endlessly impressed with Nick McCabe providing this oceanic undercurrent to everything while Dickie stropped about moaning about Vauxhall nicking his royalties and killing the set short because John Martyn got bottled off earlier in the day.

He lives near me now having fled Chippenham after drunkenly making a tit of himself at a scout hut. keep my eyes open when I'm in Ledbury but still not caught glimpse.

¹ people actually chosen my sixth form because Ashcroft went there, dozens of clones milling around, people playing 'Star Sail' in their Music Tech A-Level pieces, was maaaaaaaaaad.

[kalowski]

Jesus, Allen in that Vindaloo shit. What a cunt.

Was that Walliams in there too?