Tories EXTREMELY unfunny.

[chand]

Yes. A joke it was. Just trying to convey the message that athough i'm a tory (center right) I haven't got a high paid job, friends in high places, privilage, rich parents, a private education.

I thought you were trying to convey the message that you can't spell because you went to state school.

No, that was what he said, not what he meant. A true Tory never says what he actually means.

Anyway, yes, I think Labour come in for more criticism on here than the Conservatives do, largely of course because no-one gives a shit about the Tory party. I know I've written a lot about Tony Blair and David Blunkett, and very little about how repellent the Tories can be. My disappointment with the Labour government is not so strong that I want the fucking Tories back in, that'd be like the minority of Chelsea fans moaning cos they 'only' made second place in the Premiership and the semi-finals of the Champions league.

I disagree with Labour on a lot of issues, but I don't trust the Tories when they act like they're gonna come in with progressive social policies, because it's the party which blamed single mothers for the ills of society, sold arms to Iraq illegally, and is trying to get in on the promises of tax cuts, which makes me worry about which areas they will cut spending in.

[largerthanlife]

megatwat, thanks.

You kind of said what I have been thinking about how to say. If that makes sense.

[chand]

The trouble the Tories have is trying to get people to believe that you're gonna cut taxes and improve public services. The Conservatives say 'Everything's gonna be better AND it's gonna cost less at the same time!', and people go 'Sounds great!', but they don't actually vote Tory because they don't believe them.

[largerthanlife]

The trouble the Tories have is trying to get people to believe that you're gonna cut taxes and improve public services. The Conservatives say 'Everything's gonna be better AND it's gonna cost less at the same time!', and people go 'Sounds great!', but they don't actually vote Tory because they don't believe them.

Its quite simple to me.

If there is money being wasted (private consultants, spin doctors, Carol Chaplins etc) and you remove that waste, the result is cheaper. Take that save out of taxes and you have a happy electorate.

Do you look for the most expensive petrol? or get the cheapest you can find and pocket the difference?

[smoker]

pay peanuts, get monkeys

[largerthanlife]

pay peanuts, get monkeys

Pay luctritave contracts, get fat cats (monekys in suits)

[Nearly Annually]

How about

'Golden Age Labour'
or
'Retro-Cool Labour'

If Labour became New Labour, then sticking with the Coke theme:

Labour: Classic?
Lab: Clear?

Cherie Labour.

Opposition to women priests.

This isn't a party, or a political matter. It's one for the Church of England to decide.

Oh come on, comedy fans. All together now, "That would be..."

[fanny splendid]

Why does everyone on here associate ALL tories with being autoritarian and socially illiberal.

Experience.

All of this is ideologically compatable and VERY right wing. The reason most of you guys don't think it is right wing is because you have a biased view of what being right wing is. A view partially generated by Thatcher (economically but not socially liberal) and partially generated by so-called intellectuals.

Your view of right wing politics might be socially inclusive, but experience doesn't prove that. Michael Howard is all the evidence I need in which to base an opinion of the current Tory party. Yes, I'll admit to being biased. I don't think your version of a liberal economy has worked at all.

Who are these 'so called intellectuals' that you rail against?

[megatwat]

it's the party which blamed single mothers for the ills of society, sold arms to Iraq illegally, and is trying to get in on the promises of tax cuts, which makes me worry about which areas they will cut spending in.

And labour is the party  that led to this country's dire economic position circa 1979. But that was the past, and I owuld not blame Blair for it, I certainly would not blame his supporters.

As for tax cuts, it's fairly simple. Let's ignore inflation cos that confuses the issue. If the economy grows by 2.5%, any you increase publice spending by 1.5%, then the further 1% of economic growth can be tax cuts. The 1.5% IS e real terms increase, because inflation is happening anyway.

You might say "well, publice service need loads of cash". Then what you would do is have a situation where the economy grows at 2.5% and you increase spending at 3.5% (labour). Then you must increase taxes.

The problem with increasing taxes forever is that you hit a point where your tax take actually is lower. Mega-rich people start to avoid paying tax more, and the economy has suffered so even though most of us are paying a higher percentage of our pay packets as taxes, the pay packets are smaller so we provide lessmoney to the taxman.

What you have to achieve (tory policy) is an optimum point where taxes are low enough to stimulate to economy, but high enough to pay for defence of the realm, the welfare state, education and anything else you might think important.



Edit- Why the hell is there always an "e" on the end when i write "public"? It's not like "e" and "c" are close to each other on the keyboard. Grrrr.

[fanny splendid]

Opposition to women priests.

This isn't a party, or a political matter. It's one for the Church of England to decide.

Oh come on, comedy fans. All together now, "That would be..."

A burning offence?

;¬)

[megatwat]

Who are these 'so called intellectuals' that you rail against?

I don't like the term intellectual, anyone who calls themselves that is implying that they are better than the rest of the population. I always try to avoid doing that (with varying degrees of success). I may be more inteligent than most of the population (not bosting, just fact- the same applies, I guess, for everyone on here), but that does not make me better.

[fanny splendid]

Who are these 'so called intellectuals' that you rail against?

I don't like the term intellectual, anyone who calls themselves that is implying that they are better than the rest of the population. I always try to avoid doing that (with varying degrees of success). I may be more inteligent than most of the population (not bosting, just fact- the same applies, I guess, for everyone on here), but that does not make me better.

And that was your intended meaning was it? You didn't seem to be decrying the notion of intellectuals, but what they might stand for?

I would be interested in observing these facts.

[megatwat]

If my use of the word "intellectual" offend you so much then lets pick another one. What I'm refering to is the standard new labour type who puts themselves on a pedestol, above and beyond the population at large and always begins every sentence with "it's taking longer than we thought to reverse 18 years of under-investment and permenant decline in publice services".



And surely new labour is to old labour what pepsi is to coke. Sweeter, but ultimately not as satisfying.*



*Other soft drinks are available.

[fanny splendid]

If my use of the word "intellectual" offend you so much then lets pick another one.

No worries there, I'm not offended by the word, or it's use. You were the one who seemed to have the problem.

Surely New Labour is to Old labour, what Coke is to generic supermarket own brand American style cola?

[megatwat]

Does that make the liberals Panda Pop?

[fanny splendid]

I reckon the the Liberals are Pepsi, whereas the Tories are Dandelion & Burdock.

I like to think of the BNP as Panda Pop.

And the green party as sterilised, bottled water.

[Jon]

I want the people of this country and beyond to have the best healt/benifits etc possible. I don't want people who can work to sponge. If an imigrant comes to this country to work, fine, I'd rather someone with work ethics were part of Britian than someone who calls themselfs British but sponges off the dole all day.

If there is money being wasted (private consultants, spin doctors, Carol Chaplins etc) and you remove that waste, the result is cheaper. Take that save out of taxes and you have a happy electorate.

Good God, did you learn everything you know about Labour and the Tories from the editorials of the right wing Tabloids by any chance?

Guess what, both parties use spin doctors, both organise their "message" by giving their MPs pagers, both have image consultants, marketing firms, spin doctors, etc.  It's just a part of the modern political process, Labour was the first to get good at it for the 1997 election, but the Tories have followed suit with gusto.

Frankly though you're kidding yourself if you think any of that shit effects tax rates or public service quality in any way, it's just a drop in the ocean.  It's this simple: You lower taxes by cutting back on public services, you improve public services by increasing taxes.  Tories prefer the former, Labour the latter.

Furthermore, do you really believe it's a policy of  the Labour party to allow people to sponge off the state?  Do you really think the Labour cabinet sits around wondering how to get more immigrants onto the dole? There'll always be people who try to "sponge", and there'll always be people like you clamouring for politicians to put a stop to it  Well guess what, you got what you wanted, because now the government is going to require every citizen of this country to have an ID card, because they think it'll help stop benefit fraud.  Oh wait, you didn't want that?

[fanny splendid]

Yes, yes, that's all very well, but what carbonated soft drink do you think best sums up your personality?

Do often sing or whistle, just for fun?

[largerthanlife]

I'm surprised fanny splendid didn't make any comments on megawats explanation of the inflation/tax cut post.

What are you oppinions of this?

[MojoJojo]

If the tories got their act together, thre would be no need for a liberal party, because they would be that party. The tories should go into the next election promising lower taxes and more efficient publice services l;ike they always do, but they should also move into other areas.

Doesn't that mean you should support the Lib Dems then?

Talking about left/right wing politics becomes a bit redundant when you look at actual political parties... in almost every case, they don't follow any political ideology particularily well, and their policies are generally are hodgepodge of what they thought was a good idea at the time and alliances they have formed with other groups. There was a link I read off here at somepoint that showed this quite nicely in a American politics.

You might say "well, publice service need loads of cash". Then what you would do is have a situation where the economy grows at 2.5% and you increase spending at 3.5% (labour). Then you must increase taxes.

The problem with increasing taxes forever is that you hit a point where your tax take actually is lower. Mega-rich people start to avoid paying tax more, and the economy has suffered so even though most of us are paying a higher percentage of our pay packets as taxes, the pay packets are smaller so we provide lessmoney to the taxman.

What you have to achieve (tory policy) is an optimum point where taxes are low enough to stimulate to economy, but high enough to pay for defence of the realm, the welfare state, education and anything else you might think important.

When has Labour ever stated they are going to raise tax's forever? And are tax's currently so high that tax income has declined?
And how does your split of a 3.5% growth into 1% tax cuts and 2.5% increase in spending work when you consider the previous government (it doesn't matter who) cut tax relentlessly, even when the economy was shrinking? Do you never make up for this mismanagement? And also consier the NHS, where new treatments cost an increasing amount

One thing the current Labour governement can not be critised on is the economy. The lowest unemployment since the WWII isn't it? Or maybe WWI, can't remember. Longest period of sustained growth for a very long time. And this during a world recession too.

I would say this is because Gordon Brown has managed the economy, instead of trying to implement political ideals through the economy. No 90% upper tax limit. No cutting taxs every year, no matter what. Just trying to keep the economy growing.

Yes, a lot of money is being wasted in public services. But I believe things are improving, if only slowly. Even if you don't, do you think this inefficeincy justifies cutting spending? The tories are claiming that they will eliminate the waste (how, they don't say), and lower tax's with the result, but I think most people would prefer it if the saved money was put back in... so we end up with a first class health service and schools.

[largerthanlife]

Labour may have the lowest unemployment figures. Does anyone know how they calculate them?

The majority of the jobs these people are in now aren't stable jobs, they are jobs in service industries. The pay isn't good, but they are off the dole. As soon as any economical doubt is cast and companies make people redundant, they are the first to go. And that means there is less income for  the sevice industries... more jobs go...

It's a pack of cards thats going to come crumbling down.

[Nearly Annually]

Well that's the way the cookie shuffles.

[Purple Tentacle]

The majority of the jobs these people are in now aren't stable jobs, they are jobs in service industries.

Yeah, and why's that? Because some handbagged old cunt closed down and sold off all of our industries, turning us into a nation of waiters and consultants.

[fanny splendid]

I'm surprised fanny splendid didn't make any comments on megawats explanation of the inflation/tax cut post.

What are you oppinions of this?

Sorry, are you missing me?

There's a wonderful thunderstorm here, and I popped out to the park to stand in the rain for a bit.

Megatwat didn't say anything with his tax cut post. He suggested an extremely hypothetical and simplistic scenario. Great. Wonderful.

Pay the poor more, to tax them more, but don't involve inflation? Is that what he was talking about?

How much does Job Seeker's allowance pay? Anything more than that is greed.

Did anyone ever know how the Tories calculated their employment figures?
Seasonally adjusted
I loved that phrase.
Both parties employ arcane ways to reduce the appearance of unemployment. Are you saying that the Tories were more honest, because they admitted to three million more unemployed than labour do?

What would you recommend these people who are in the service industry do? Go on the dole, where their future will be more secure, or perhaps not even bother taking the job in the first place, as it will just interrupt their benefit entitlement? Or is any job, a good job? No matter what the pay, the future and the stability.

[largerthanlife]

The majority of the jobs these people are in now aren't stable jobs, they are jobs in service industries.

Yeah, and why's that? Because some handbagged old cunt closed down and sold off all of our industries, turning us into a nation of waiters and consultants.

What industries?

[fanny splendid]

Is that a trick question?

[largerthanlife]

Is that a trick question?

No, just want to be clear.

[fanny splendid]

Cable & Wireless: Oct 81
Amersham International: Feb 82
Britoil: Nov 82
Associated British Ports: Feb 83
Enterprise Oil: Feb 84
Jaguar: July 84
British Telecom: Nov 84
British Gas: Dec 86
British Airways: Feb 87
Rolls-Royce: May 87
BAA: July 87
British Steel: Dec 88
Regional water companies: Dec 89
Electricity distribution companies: Dec 90

And about thirty others.

Are you sure it wasn't a trick question?

[MonkeyDrummer]

Do often sing or whistle, just for fun?

Do you feel sometimes that age is against you?

[fanny splendid]

I can help you. I can help you, help yourself.