Playstation "Showcase"

[Utter Shit]

It feels like there's basically only three settings in AAA gaming nowadays:

Future (dystopia)
Future (hi-tech)
Fantasy wizard monster stuff

I know that is a big generalisation but as someone who is not particularly arsed with those genres, I was skipping through the showcase very quickly.

[oggyraiding]

Am I racist or are Sony racist?

In the PS4/5 Spider-Man game, it has very overblown generic superhero movie music.

Miles Morales game has that music with hip hop beats overlaid.

Is this racism because Sony are like "the main character is black so we need an urban flavour"?

Or am I racist for assuming Sony are using hip-hop beats in a black character's game just because it's a black character when maybe it's nothing to do with that?

[Mister Six]

Neither? Miles is a black kids from Brooklyn in the 21st century. If he were real he'd almost certainly be listening to hip hop.

[Memorex MP3]

MGS3 probably needs a full remake at this point tbf; isn't there a bunch of variance between the original release, subsistence, the hd version and the 3DS version?


And yeah 1 doesn't really work remade because it'll have the same issues as twin snakes or be a totally different game. 1 is really closer to the original metal gear games than the ones that came after. Kinda surprised I've never seen a full demake done for the msx cos it could be very close to the same

[Magnum Valentino]

MGS3 probably needs a full remake at this point tbf; isn't there a bunch of variance between the original release, subsistence, the hd version and the 3DS version?


And yeah 1 doesn't really work remade because it'll have the same issues as twin snakes or be a totally different game. 1 is really closer to the original metal gear games than the ones that came after. Kinda surprised I've never seen a full demake done for the msx cos it could be very close to the same

Subsistence is just Snake Eater with a free camera and extra game modes. The HD version is Subsistence in HD. Haven't played the 3DS version.

I thought the same thing as the above poster about the music in Spider-Man. There was a period where every single black wrestler working for WWE had to have music like that.

[Mister Six]

They couldn't just remake MGS1 with the same controls/camera but new models, textures, particle effects etc?

I thought the same thing as the above poster about the music in Spider-Man. There was a period where every single black wrestler working for WWE had to have music like that.

Again, Miles is a black teenager from Brooklyn. He would 100% listen to hip hop. Why not put that in the game? Actual American black kids playing the game are going to expect it...

[Magnum Valentino]

They couldn't just remake MGS1 with the same controls/camera but new models, textures, particle effects etc?

Again, Miles is a black teenager from Brooklyn. He would 100% listen to hip hop. Why not put that in the game? Actual American black kids playing the game are going to expect it...

I'm happy to be schooled on this - I'm white, male. See myself in everything.

But when Peter is cutting about, the score is generic action/hero music. Soon as Miles takes over, hip hop beats are laid over the same music.

If the music that plays when Peter is in control isn't culturally relevant, why is that the case with Miles? Doesn't that mark him as 'other'?

[Mister Six]

I'm happy to be schooled on this - I'm white, male. See myself in everything.

But when Peter is cutting about, the score is generic action/hero music. Soon as Miles takes over, hip hop beats are laid over the same music.

If the music that plays when Peter is in control isn't culturally relevant, why is that the case with Miles? Doesn't that mark him as 'other'?

What culturally relevant music would you play over Peter? Mumford and Sons?

I guarantee you that 99% of black American kids either do not care or like this. And the other 1% are just pretending so people will reblog them on Tumblr.

EDIT: okay maybe a chunk of those black kids are punks or metalheads or indie kids or into house or something and might roll their eyes, but this is a molehill > mountain situation.

[Magnum Valentino]

That's my point - does Miles have to have culturally relevant music play over his gameplay section, or does it just serve to distinguish him as "the black/hispanic one".

I'm not complaining that he "gets" something his white counterpart doesn't.

I'm also not arguing that he wouldn't listen to hip hop, but he's not sitting in his dorm, he's swinging over the city being scored by a videogame programmer.

Can I just ask - what's the "mountain" here?

[bgmnts]

And yeah 1 doesn't really work remade because it'll have the same issues as twin snakes or be a totally different game. 1 is really closer to the original metal gear games than the ones that came after. Kinda surprised I've never seen a full demake done for the msx cos it could be very close to the same

Same music, voice acting, design etc just in the fox engine. Tweak a few boss fights to incorporate the over the shoulder camera.

Can't be that hard can it?

[Mister Six]

Or just keep the exact same camera. Why not?

That's my point - does Miles have to have culturally relevant music play over his gameplay section, or does it just serve to distinguish him as "the black/hispanic one".

I'm not complaining that he "gets" something his white counterpart doesn't.

I'm also not arguing that he wouldn't listen to hip hop, but he's not sitting in his dorm, he's swinging over the city being scored by a videogame programmer.

Can I just ask - what's the "mountain" here?

It's useful to differentiate characters by music, and since Miles is a teenage African-American from Brooklyn, hip hop music makes sense. Not least because that's the kind of soundtrack that the (hugely popular with black Americans) Spider-Verse movies had.

I guarantee you that if they'd just used a different cinematic score, black bloggers would be up in arms about how Miles's cultural heritage was being ignored.

This isn't a problem, please stop trying to make it into one.

And there is no mountain - that was supposed to be "turning a mountain into a molehill", not "choosing a molehill over a mountain", but I can see now how it might have appeared.

[JamesTC]

Yes, Twin Snakes giving alternative gameplay options while retaining the same objectives is what broke the game.

Any remake should either overhaul the entire game or stick with the same gameplay.

To be honest, MGS2 is the one I have trouble with camera wise. It never felt like it was designed around then older style POV. MGS3 struggled with this too, which is why it has the free camera added for the Subsistence version onwards.

[Magnum Valentino]

Or just keep the exact same camera. Why not?

It's useful to differentiate characters by music, and since Miles is a teenage African-American from Brooklyn, hip hop music makes sense. Not least because that's the kind of soundtrack that the (hugely popular with black Americans) Spider-Verse movies had.

I guarantee you that if they'd just used a different cinematic score, black bloggers would be up in arms about how Miles's cultural heritage was being ignored.

This isn't a problem, please stop trying to make it into one.

And there is no mountain - that was supposed to be "turning a mountain into a molehill", not "choosing a molehill over a mountain", but I can see now how it might have appeared.

My point is, it's not even a molehill. It's not a problem. You're running hot over this, I think. What this is is an observation.

There would be no issue running another piece of generic "hero" music regardless of who's onscreen. We're not talking leitmotif character association here - Leia's theme when Darth Vader is talking, or something - we're talking about music that moves from purely functional for the white character to deliberately relevant for the black character. The "normal" Spider-Man gets superhero music, the "black" Spider-Man gets the same music..."but black". An embellishment of the established. Not unique, only changed. Dependent. Subsidiary, even.

I suppose what I'm making, though apparently not clearly, which I accept, is the observation that "with extra hip hop beats" is a lazy shorthand employed by musicians working in gaming and wrestling that confuses character ethnicity with actual character.

[bgmnts]

Or just keep the exact same camera. Why not?

Fair. Counter would be that a far away birds eye view wouldn't showcase the engine and graphics as well as a third person view.

But a proper good remake would probably give players the choice.

I assume most would agree the free camera third person makes MGS3 much better as well.

[Mister Six]

My point is, it's not even a molehill. It's not a problem. You're running hot over this, I think. What this is is an observation.

There would be no issue running another piece of generic "hero" music regardless of who's onscreen. We're not talking leitmotif character association here - Leia's theme when Darth Vader is talking, or something - we're talking about music that moves from purely functional for the white character to deliberately relevant for the black character. The "normal" Spider-Man gets superhero music, the "black" Spider-Man gets the same music..."but black". An embellishment of the established. Not unique, only changed. Dependent. Subsidiary, even.

I suppose what I'm making, though apparently not clearly, which I accept, is the observation that "with extra hip hop beats" is a lazy shorthand employed by musicians working in gaming and wrestling that confuses character ethnicity with actual character.

The whole thing started off with the line "Am I racist or are Sony racist?", which does suggest a problem on someone's part.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's something that actually matters, and seems like reaching for a hot take. At worst, they were lazy and should have written an entirely new score for Miles. 🤷

EDIT: Sorry, it is a decent observation, I think the phrasing of OP around racism overstated its severity a bit, and I was responding on that level. I don't think it's really that significant though.

Fair. Counter would be that a far away birds eye view wouldn't showcase the engine and graphics as well as a third person view.

Does it have to? Especially when it's presumably the same engine used in the other games. I think the important thing is making sure that the game is as good as it can be, and if adding first-person aiming or whatever fucks with that (I never played Twin Snakes, so don't know) then just don't do it.

[Memorex MP3]

Same music, voice acting, design etc just in the fox engine. Tweak a few boss fights to incorporate the over the shoulder camera.

Can't be that hard can it?

The quality of the voice recordings was deemed unusable in 2004, not a chance of them being reused 20 years later

Over the shoulder camera would immediately make a lot of the level layouts require redesigns from the fixed perspective designed. You could do something Link's Awakening style and avoid all this but I doubt they'd want to waste their MGS remake potential on something as modest as that


A straight up redo in the Fox Engine isn't a very appealing prospect to me. Even if it wasn't as broken as Twin Snakes it'd still be just as charmless  and weird of a tangent. Not sure who it'd even be for

[Magnum Valentino]

The whole thing started off with the line "Am I racist or are Sony racist?", which does suggest a problem on someone's part.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's something that actually matters, and seems like reaching for a hot take. At worst, they were lazy and should have written an entirely new score for Miles. 🤷

EDIT: Sorry, it is a decent observation, I think the phrasing of OP around racism overstated its severity a bit, and I was responding on that level. I don't think it's really that significant though.

Does it have to? Especially when it's presumably the same engine used in the other games. I think the important thing is making sure that the game is as good as it can be, and if adding first-person aiming or whatever fucks with that (I never played Twin Snakes, so don't know) then just don't do it.

If the two of us were sitting at a table in a cafe I don't think you would tell me you thought I was reaching for a hot take. Fine - we aren't - but this sounds like a statement unique to online communication and I can't be bothered if you consider it a performative discussion.

[oggyraiding]

Do you think it'll be Sutherland or Hayter doing the Snake voice? I hope they get Hayter back, he's iconic.

[Ignatius_S]

John Paesano, who scored the music for the last two Spiderman games (and the one for the upcoming one) has been interviewed about his approach for both games in the past - such as https://gizmodo.com/spider-mans-composer-on-crafting-miles-morales-melodic-1845776678 - worth a read as it explains what he was trying to go for.

[bgmnts]

Not sure who it'd even be for

Just me it seems, and I'm okay with that.

I just have absolutely no faith in Konami to do it justice in any way whatsoever. Or any modern game company to be fair.

They redid Shadow Moses Island for MGS4 if I recall correctly, so that asset design or the general layout is there I presume.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Is Twin Snakes tied up in rights or something? It's never been reissued since its lone outing on GameCube

It's a bit like Bayonetta 2 onwards in that Nintendo own it, even though it's someone else's property.

Considering how poorly it was received, I doubt Nintendo will ever let it back out of the vault and I'm sure Konami are happy to let it stay that way.

[JamesTC]

Do you think it'll be Sutherland or Hayter doing the Snake voice? I hope they get Hayter back, he's iconic.

Hayter. They've confirmed the original cast are back. Not sure if they are literally using the old audio.

[JamesTC]

Just me it seems, and I'm okay with that.

I just have absolutely no faith in Konami to do it justice in any way whatsoever. Or any modern game company to be fair.

They redid Shadow Moses Island for MGS4 if I recall correctly, so that asset design or the general layout is there I presume.

Was going to mention MGS4. Fuck, I love Act 4 of that game. Culminating in the Rex vs Ray fight. Never have I fallen for nostalgia bait harder.

I think MGS4 proved that there is scope to keep the basic layout but use more modern mechanics. The game wouldn't be too long... which is why it should be a remake of Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid together.

[Mister Six]

If the two of us were sitting at a table in a cafe I don't think you would tell me you thought I was reaching for a hot take.

I would, but I honestly don't mean to upset or offend.

It's more like... I think this is something that is notable only in a very small, very theoretical and academic way. I can see how it would seem like (and maybe does indicate) the diminishment or subordination of Miles to "the other Spider-Man" rather than raising him up as an equal co-star with Peter. In fact, maybe that was intentional, since Peter is the OG Spider-Man and Miles has only been around since the 2010s. If so, whether that's justified or a wise idea is up for debate.

But I think it's also... not something that really matters. It's not something that I think is going to upset or offend people, and I don't think it's out of keeping with Miles's "actual character", any more than it was in Spider-Verse (it wasn't there either, I would say). I also think that if hip hop elements weren't present in the score at all (especially having been present in the Miles solo game), people would view it as ignoring an aspect of Miles's character and world.

(Also, does Miles not get his own score, just a reworked version of Peter's? IIRC in the Spider-Man: Miles Morales game he had his own soundtrack. I just scrubbed through the gameplay video but couldn't tell - although I'm a bit rushed. If they actually have their own separate scores, except one of them has trap beats over the top or something, then I really think that's fine.)

And again, all of this is in the original context of a choice between OP being racist or Sony being racist. I don't think it's racist to give a black American teenager a hip hop-infused score, and the suggestion that it is just seems really, really silly to me. I don't even think it's "problematic", as the kids say. Only if Miles gets an exact copy of Peter's score with hip hop beats/trap hi-hats layered over it, and even then only in a way that seems abstracted and obscure and distant from real life. If he gets his own score then I see no problem at all.

[Goldentony]

Miles Morales is a big fan of Phil Minton in the comics

[bgmnts]

Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid together.

Actually, yes, this is the obvious and correct answer, and there is a lot of scope for the first two thirds of that game as they're hardly iconic.

Would LOVE to see Machine Gun  or Coward Duck rendered in glorious 4k etc, see what they'd come up with.

[Mister Six]

Coward Duck

Ugh, can't escape Marvel anywhere.

[JamesTC]

Actually, yes, this is the obvious and correct answer, and there is a lot of scope for the first two thirds of that game as they're hardly iconic.

Would LOVE to see Machine Gun  or Coward Duck rendered in glorious 4k etc, see what they'd come up with.

I've always thought that Running Man could have a great modern 3D equivalent.

[Memorex MP3]

Considering how poorly it was received, I doubt Nintendo will ever let it back out of the vault and I'm sure Konami are happy to let it stay that way.

Nintendo Switch Online release some random month in 5 years time to help promote some other Metal Gear thing coming out

[Pink Gregory]

Do you think it'll be Sutherland or Hayter doing the Snake voice? I hope they get Hayter back, he's iconic.

I liked Sutherland Snake and I wouldn't want that, plus he was probably only in MGSV because Kojima sought him out, I doubt Konami would spring for a celebrity VA.  Especially considering how badly they've treated their voice talent in the past.

The quality of the voice recordings was deemed unusable in 2004, not a chance of them being reused 20 years later

Over the shoulder camera would immediately make a lot of the level layouts require redesigns from the fixed perspective designed. You could do something Link's Awakening style and avoid all this but I doubt they'd want to waste their MGS remake potential on something as modest as that


A straight up redo in the Fox Engine isn't a very appealing prospect to me. Even if it wasn't as broken as Twin Snakes it'd still be just as charmless  and weird of a tangent. Not sure who it'd even be for

I'd love to see an MGS demake, or a remaster/upgrade of Ghost Babel