Manchester

[xxxx xxx x xxx]

The Bearded Feeder in Piccadilly Gardens food market does the best cheeseburgers in the world, sue me if I'm wrong.

[no_offenc]

Lived there for a year and a half around 2009. Nah.

[shoulders]

Without wanting to pull this whimsical, DSMO thread into true tangential horror, I do want to point out that weird thing people do after a tragedy. Post-Arena bombing, there was so much "we're Manchester, we will get through this - this City will not be defeated, it's the way we do things up here, etc"

People getting on with their lives a few hours after a bombing isn't really a sign of strength, in my view. It's just capitalism, the need to work to eat, and an increasing disconnect with things that do not affect us directly.

Isn't it just a way of rationalising that things beyond your control and power have to be put in a certain place in order to carry on - but let's do so in a way that makes us feel like we're clubbing together.

[Kankurette]

What else are we supposed to do when a terrorist attack happens? Or a disaster?

Having just moaned like piss about Oasis, I went to the Liam Gallagher show at the Ritz the week after the Ariana Grande bombing. I can't stand him or his music, but my mate offered me a freebie and I was keen to have a drink and observe the spectacle. The environment at the end of the show was utterly toxic, and felt like an EDL rally or Nuremburg. An entire sense of these Stone Island rotters whipping themselves into an incoherent rage - directed nominally towards 'terrorists'. Really strange atmosphere, and one I was keen to leave as soon as possible. 

Ariana Grande annoys me BUT I have some respect for her because of how she conducted herself after the bombing. She didn't jump on the anti-Muslim train.

Was Urbis the museum of a city or something like that before they robbed Deepdale?

I think the Michael Jackson statue from Fulham is supposed to be being stored under one of the stands still because M/C dont seem keen on displaying it for some reason.

I think so. I never went but Manc friends used to hang out there, it was popular with moshers.

[shoulders]

What else are we supposed to do when a terrorist attack happens? Or a disaster?

Terror attack: cum
Disaster: cum

This may seem flippant but orgasm > pain. Prove me wrong people. Prove me wrong.

[sevendaughters]

Can recognise some essential truth to all the positives and negatives here. When the council started to prey on the reputation generated by organic artsy spaces like Affleck's - whilst trying to push out Affleck's - was definitely a step away from some of the heart of the place and more towards a generic city.

That said I've always felt the soul of the city lies in the varying suburbs and outerlands more than the hubriszone of the centre. During Euro 2021 I walked from the centre out to my mate's in Stockport, roughly following the tram line to East Didsbury. It was a nice day and it definitely had the flavour of a colourful, multicultural, spiritually alive place, with different tones and contrasts between centre, student areas, Rusholme, Withington, near the Christie, just all great in a strange accumulation of energies. Bit wanky, I know, but I rated it.

Obviously you're always within 50 yards of a prat and the centre and certain parts have flaws, I think there's more good than bad in the regeneration. Levenshulme in the 00s was a hole: now it is reasonably nice. You can walk through Moss Side and it will be fine. I fail to see what places in this country of comparable size are definitely better. Glasgow? That's probably it.

[poodlefaker]

There's a band called Affleck's Palace now, you can kinda guess what they're like. Reminds me of this awful bandwagoneering from BITD:

[The Culture Bunker]

During Euro 2021 I walked from the centre out to my mate's in Stockport, roughly following the tram line to East Didsbury. It was a nice day and it definitely had the flavour of a colourful, multicultural, spiritually alive place, with different tones and contrasts between centre, student areas, Rusholme, Withington, near the Christie, just all great in a strange accumulation of energies. Bit wanky, I know, but I rated it.

But the tramline goes nowhere near Rusholme or Withington (despite the latter being a tram stop, it's a good mile or so from the actual location). It heads West to Trafford, then swings round Chorlton South East to Didsbury.

It's a nice walk from East Didsbury to Stockport, though, starting off on the old trainline then moving to the path by the Mersey. If you're a sad get like me, you can enjoy seeing bits of the old railway bridges across the river.

[sevendaughters]

roughly = in the last couple of miles

[Capt.Midnight]

I lived and worked in Manchester city centre about 10/15 years ago, and the development since then is utterly insane.

Returning for an ill-advised Taco Festival, I found the regenerated area between Manchester Victoria and Blackfriars quite cool. I think Manchester does best at the edges, or the fringes. The areas of market street up to piccadilly just feel claustrophobic and pointless (unless you like SHOPPING).

[Minami Minegishi]

Isn't it just a way of rationalising that things beyond your control and power have to be put in a certain place in order to carry on - but let's do so in a way that makes us feel like we're clubbing together.

Well yes, I agree it's an entirely invented concept that might help people heal after trauma in a communal way. I don't have a problem with it so much (I mean, who would?) it's just a response that the media loves to parrot as if it has any substance. As someone who very much does not belong to any single place, I find regional thinking in this way quite odd I suppose. 

[The Culture Bunker]

The areas of market street up to piccadilly just feel claustrophobic and pointless (unless you like SHOPPING).

Part of the problem it faces, of course, is that people increasingly don't. I guess whoever runs the Arndale has something of the right idea by trying to make it more places to eat out and play daft games like 'virtual mini golf' (whatever that is, though I admit I'm curious to try, as a lifelong shit crazy golf player).

[holyzombiejesus]

I'm sure Manchester is lovely if you live in Didsbury or visit Levenshulme Market or go for sunny walks through generally affluent or well-funded areas. As I said, it's fine if you're comfortably off or visiting for drinks and shopping. Unfortunately, huge parts of it are an unmitigated shithole with the very worst outcomes for the people living there. Life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, mental health issues, housing, ACEs; they're all shamefully poor for those who live north of Ancoats. Manchester can pat itself on the back and praise it's "New York skyline" and chuck shitloads at a completely laughable new venue but all this "we're Manchester, we do things differently" is just bullshit.

Outside London, it must have the widest disparity in the haves and have nots, and the city seems so relaxed about it. I know the housing crisis is a national problem but it's now got to the point where people who aren't working can't afford to live in fucking Moston. Doesn't help that the city's social housing is so dilapidated and rotten and they've done fuck all (and continue to do fuck all) to remedy that. Pat Karney wanting a chufty badge 'cause they're building 20 new houses in Collyhurst ("some of which will be earmarked for the elderly!" or somesuch bollocks) when the council are giving away buildings to private developers to sell on to the extremely wealthy is, well, disgusting.

[BJBMK2]

I'm sure Manchester is lovely if you live in Didsbury or visit Levenshulme Market or go for sunny walks through generally affluent or well-funded areas. As I said, it's fine if you're comfortably off or visiting for drinks and shopping. Unfortunately, huge parts of it are an unmitigated shithole with the very worst outcomes for the people living there. Life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, mental health issues, housing, ACEs; they're all shamefully poor for those who live north of Ancoats. Manchester can pat itself on the back and praise it's "New York skyline" and chuck shitloads at a completely laughable new venue but all this "we're Manchester, we do things differently" is just bullshit.

Outside London, it must have the widest disparity in the haves and have nots, and the city seems so relaxed about it. I know the housing crisis is a national problem but it's now got to the point where people who aren't working can't afford to live in fucking Moston. Doesn't help that the city's social housing is so dilapidated and rotten and they've done fuck all (and continue to do fuck all) to remedy that. Pat Karney wanting a chufty badge 'cause they're building 20 new houses in Collyhurst ("some of which will be earmarked for the elderly!" or somesuch bollocks) when the council are giving away buildings to private developers to sell on to the extremely wealthy is, well, disgusting.

Seeing that slogan (from 24 Hour Party People? Unless that was pilfered from somewhere else), used to make me cringe my back out, every time.

[The Culture Bunker]

I suppose the irony is that Manchester didn't really do things differently - the horrendous poverty was there when it became a place of note, hence Engels doing his work on the matter.

And as mentioned, there's the aspect of Liverpool pushing as their icon(s) the lads who made up one of (if not the) most popular bands of all time, while in Manchester it's the man who presented the local news. I mean, 10cc made a pop song nobody else had thought of, why not stick Graham, Eric, Lol and Kevin's mugs all over the city?

[Sebastian Cobb]

I'm sure Manchester is lovely if you live in Didsbury or visit Levenshulme Market or go for sunny walks through generally affluent or well-funded areas. As I said, it's fine if you're comfortably off or visiting for drinks and shopping. Unfortunately, huge parts of it are an unmitigated shithole with the very worst outcomes for the people living there. Life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, mental health issues, housing, ACEs; they're all shamefully poor for those who live north of Ancoats. Manchester can pat itself on the back and praise it's "New York skyline" and chuck shitloads at a completely laughable new venue but all this "we're Manchester, we do things differently" is just bullshit.

I guess that is one of the things Manchester has done a little differently to other former industrial cities like Birmingham or Glasgow, which I think are still places that would be a bit shit for a day out unless you're chaperoned by a local who knows where your things of interest are or you do a fair bit of research.

That's not to say that either of those places aren't also getting gentrified and having horrid glass boxes thrown up everywhere either, mind.

[holyzombiejesus]

And as mentioned, there's the aspect of Liverpool pushing as their icon(s) the lads who made up one of (if not the) most popular bands of all time, while in Manchester it's the man who presented the local news. I mean, 10cc made a pop song nobody else had thought of, why not stick Graham, Eric, Lol and Kevin's mugs all over the city?

I'm not sure I know many people in Manchester who give the slightest fuck about Wilson. I worked in the Northern Quarter for a few years and djed and stuff like that and I can't remember anyone having ever mentioned him, certainly not with any regard. I'm not sure this idea of him as some kind of Mancunian icon is one based in reality. I guess that the people pushing that are the media types he worked with or were connected with them.

[The Culture Bunker]

I'm not sure I know many people in Manchester who give the slightest fuck about Wilson. I worked in the Northern Quarter for a few years and djed and stuff like that and I can't remember anyone having ever mentioned him, certainly not with any regard. I'm not sure this idea of him as some kind of Mancunian icon is one based in reality. I guess that the people pushing that are the media types he worked with or were connected with them.

I'm an immigrant, so to speak (arrived in 2004) and when I was a regular in the NQ - rehearsing, playing gigs or general dossing around - around 2005-10, it's true that the Factory fetishism hadn't quite taken hold. Pretty much all the bands we knew were aping Oasis or the Roses (while we were hopelessly out of step by loving the Chameleons and Psychedelic Furs). I think you had that 'Control' film with the Joy Division documentary coming out not long after, combined with Wilson himself rolling a seven, that acted as a springboard for that vein of extreme nostalgia. Just my casual observations, of course, which are quite likely well off the mark.

[shiftwork2]

For those not familiar with Wilson he worked with the defining names of punk / post-punk

[kalowski]

There's lots I love about it: some great pubs up in the Northern Quarter and down near Oxford Road (worth it for the Pevrill of the Peak alone). Also some fantastic music venues across the city, from Night and Day up to the Apollo (nothing bigger than that, please).
But equally I hate the mythology of Factory like nearly all of us. Never liked the Hacienda when I could go to the sticky floor dives of First Avenue or The Venue. Liked Affleck's Palace when I was a kid and then one day I went and it was full of ceramic paintings saying "And God created Manchester".
But still like it as a city and love taking the kids there.

[kalowski]

I'm sure Manchester is lovely if you live in Didsbury or visit Levenshulme Market or go for sunny walks through generally affluent or well-funded areas. As I said, it's fine if you're comfortably off or visiting for drinks and shopping. Unfortunately, huge parts of it are an unmitigated shithole with the very worst outcomes for the people living there. Life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, mental health issues, housing, ACEs; they're all shamefully poor for those who live north of Ancoats. Manchester can pat itself on the back and praise it's "New York skyline" and chuck shitloads at a completely laughable new venue but all this "we're Manchester, we do things differently" is just bullshit.

Outside London, it must have the widest disparity in the haves and have nots, and the city seems so relaxed about it. I know the housing crisis is a national problem but it's now got to the point where people who aren't working can't afford to live in fucking Moston. Doesn't help that the city's social housing is so dilapidated and rotten and they've done fuck all (and continue to do fuck all) to remedy that. Pat Karney wanting a chufty badge 'cause they're building 20 new houses in Collyhurst ("some of which will be earmarked for the elderly!" or somesuch bollocks) when the council are giving away buildings to private developers to sell on to the extremely wealthy is, well, disgusting.

There's a difference of ten years in life expectancy between Didsbury and Gorton - 5 miles apart.

[madhair60]

never been to manchester. the thought holds little appeal.

[holyzombiejesus]

I'm an immigrant, so to speak (arrived in 2004) and when I was a regular in the NQ - rehearsing, playing gigs or general dossing around - around 2005-10, it's true that the Factory fetishism hadn't quite taken hold. Pretty much all the bands we knew were aping Oasis or the Roses (while we were hopelessly out of step by loving the Chameleons and Psychedelic Furs). I think you had that 'Control' film with the Joy Division documentary coming out not long after, combined with Wilson himself rolling a seven, that acted as a springboard for that vein of extreme nostalgia. Just my casual observations, of course, which are quite likely well off the mark.

I'm not sure the Factory fetishism ever did actually take hold. Maybe there's an older generation of people who lionised him but, as I said, I think it's a huge construct. What do you think @buzby ?

[Kankurette]

Madchester passed me by. I was still living in Brighton when it was a thing, I was in primary school. When I came up here, I remember seeing a photo of Tony Wilson on the old BBC building, and of course you have the Hacienda flats. There does seem to be a bit of a revival with the Joy Division art but that's it.

[Minami Minegishi]

I was obsessed with The Other Side of Midnight, where Wilson introduced me to tons of culture I had either not heard of, or wanted to know more about. Regardless of how much of a nob he was, and how bad some of his decisions were, and the way that the city suddenly reveres him post-mortem, I do think he is a good egg.

When I saw Control, Hook did a Q&A afterwards, and whilst he noted that (the still living) Wilson paid him (sometimes) for hourly sound and roadie work at the Factory at the peak of New Order's fame, he also positioned him as a vital figure whose mainstream profile smoothed the way for all sorts of things that I like about Manchester (pre-Madchester).

[The Culture Bunker]

I'm not sure the Factory fetishism ever did actually take hold. Maybe there's an older generation of people who lionised him but, as I said, I think it's a huge construct. What do you think @buzby ?

Not the same way it has in Liverpool with the Beatles - but in the last 15 years, I'm sure Factory related stuff around the city has sprung up. Paintings on walls of Wilson and even Peter Saville, the Joy Division pub, there's a bit outside Affleck's that has Hannett and Rob Gretton painted on it. Peter Hook has certainly pushed it well enough, I assume his Fac 251 place is still going. Maybe fetishism is overstating a bit, but I do find it all very tedious. I'd be more impressed if there was a mural for Freddie and the Dreamers around the place.

[BJBMK2]

I was indoctrinated at an early age. My mum was friendly with Shaun Ryder and that whole circle at some point. So she had anecdotes a-plenty. The time she refused Tony Wilson entry into a club, on account of not recognizing him, despite his name being on some wanky guest list, remained a favourite.

[holyzombiejesus]

When I saw Control, Hook did a Q&A afterwards, and whilst he noted that (the still living) Wilson paid him (sometimes) for hourly sound and roadie work at the Factory at the peak of New Order's fame, he also positioned him as a vital figure whose mainstream profile smoothed the way for all sorts of things that I like about Manchester (pre-Madchester).

Did he go in to any detail about this? I'm intrigued as to what he facilitated.

[pancreas]

I am working there despite living in Newcastle which I rate higher by an order of magnitude. I hated Manchester to start with. But as long as you keep to the north-east—ancoats and above—then there is good. Plus the bridgewater plus a positively evolving Chinatown. Plus the RNCM. I could go on.

Manchester university is part of the problem. It is being run into the ground by incompetent sociopaths at a vast rate of knots. Absolutely astonishing what's going on.

[shoulders]

There's a district called "Besses O' Th' Barn" apparently. Evidence that the darkest mire can foster a jocund sprout.