Watchmen (super hero graphic novel from the 1980s)

[Magnum Valentino]

The Courtyard is pretty minor stuff - the comic wasn't written by Moore but was based on a short story he wrote pretty early on (the mid 80s I think?) and was just your usual Lovecraft riffs really.

Neonomicon is a Moore-scripted follow-up that has some pretty nasty stuff in it (Moore has said he was going through a rough patch when he wrote it) but it's a horror story so... fair enough I guess? Moore hasn't written many duds and this isn't one of them.

Providence is basically Moore's attempt at creating a unified Lovecraft Cinematic Universe, so it really helps a lot to know the stories he's referencing. But even if you don't, there's plenty of decent creepy moments throughout and it builds to a convincingly Lovecraft-ian conclusion. Good mix of horror sequences and ideas that linger and get more disturbing the more you think about them.

This site is pretty handy as far as following up all the references goes: https://factsprovidence.wordpress.com/

I'm going to go ahead and call it, Neonomicon is a dud. It's fucking disgusting.

Is there much rape in Providence because I'll not bother, if so.

[bgmnts]

Why is murder okay in literature (and comic books) but rape isn't?

[Magnum Valentino]

Just not dying about rape boss, would happily avoid it in all consumed fiction the rest of my life if possible.

[Vodkafone]

I'm going to go ahead and call it, Neonomicon is a dud. It's fucking disgusting.

Is there much rape in Providence because I'll not bother, if so.

There's some disturbing sexual stuff in Providence but it's all so unreal that it didn't come across as repugnant to me.

[Mister Six]

Why is murder okay in literature (and comic books) but rape isn't?

Murder victims don't tend to read many comics.

[13 schoolyards]

Back in the 80's I used to pick up the occasional independent comic on my monthly Cerebus-collecting comic shop visits and accidentally managed to buy all the chapters of The Bojeffries Saga. They were published as backup stories for various titles (Dalgoda, A1) and it was always an absolute joy to discover that I'd just got another.

I did audio versions of the first few chapters on CaB Radio, but got stumped on the Festus' Day Out which has no dialogue and so would have just been 8 minutes of sound effects. In retrospect, that shouldn't have been a problem, really.

Anyway, there should be more love on here for Bojeffries, a very rare series where Moore was just having a laugh, with no obscure, arcane knowledge behind it or deeply-thought message to impart to the cognoscenti. Just a bunch of weirdos in Northampton (where else?) dealing with their absurd, everyday problems.

Firm agree. Moore is one of the few comic writers (in contrast to writer / artists) who is actually intentionally funny. I mean, he has his failures there too, but his comedy material has a pretty good strike rate compared to a lot of others. No-one's splitting their sides reading a Neil Gaiman comic

[Mister Six]

Gaiman can be pretty funny. I read A Game of You a couple of weeks ago, and some of the dialogue from Wilkinson got a laugh out of me.

[13 schoolyards]

Yeah, I was possibly being a bit harsh there - some of the side characters in Sandman are (as you point out) pretty funny at times. It's more that he's never really gone all-in with broad comedy in the way that, say, Garth Ennis has.

Circling back to Watchman, all those segues and juxtapositions in the page transitions are exactly the kind of thing you'd expect in a comedy - they're just used in Watchman for ironic effect rather than to get laughs. I used to think it was crap when people said the closest thing in comics to Watchman was the old Kurtzman-era Mad magazine superhero parodies (and Moore himself has said they were a big influence on him), but the more I think about it the more it's spot on.

[elliszeroed]

Was Miracleman that ground-breaking in how it portrayed a superhero- in terms of politics and global effects? I'm sure there must be earlier examples, but can't think of any.


You know, reading the Marvel collections, the whole Kid Miracleman bit seemed silly- he destroys London once, and then again, so Miracleman kills him, and decides to take over the world. Like he isn't the problem.

Not sure why his big plan wasn't "I should fuck off".

[Mister Six]

MiracleMan isn't really supposed to be a hero, though, is he? I think we're supposed to feel a bit unsure about what happens to the planet once he takes over....

Yeah, I was possibly being a bit harsh there - some of the side characters in Sandman are (as you point out) pretty funny at times. It's more that he's never really gone all-in with broad comedy in the way that, say, Garth Ennis has.

Not in comics, although he never did that many comics compared to his peers, did he? But Anansi Boys is a straight-up comedy novel (albeit one with a very obvious and massive debt to Terry Pratchet... but if you're going to draw inspiration, you might as well do it from the best).

He wrote a snivelling butler character in one of his Spawn issues who was very funny, too.

[13 schoolyards]

Was Miracleman that ground-breaking in how it portrayed a superhero- in terms of politics and global effects? I'm sure there must be earlier examples, but can't think of any.


You know, reading the Marvel collections, the whole Kid Miracleman bit seemed silly- he destroys London once, and then again, so Miracleman kills him, and decides to take over the world. Like he isn't the problem.

Not sure why his big plan wasn't "I should fuck off".

Kid Miracleman's plan was basically "kill Miracleman". I don't think we're told whether KM figured out his past was fictional, so it's probably in character that his evil scheme is just to punch on. MM himself during the fight even says something like "what's the point? where can you go from here?"

The fact that he trashes London just to get MM's attention was a nicely comic note I thought, especially as MM is off hanging out with his mates on the moon at the time. You had one job...

[samadriel]

MiracleMan isn't really supposed to be a hero, though, is he? I think we're supposed to feel a bit unsure about what happens to the planet once he takes over....

That's one of the things I really like about Miracleman, and now that you mention it, it reminds me of what I really liked about V for Vendetta -- You might agree with quite a lot of what V does, but he's anything but a squeaky clean hero, considering what he does to Evey.

[letsgobrian]

Gaiman can be pretty funny. I read A Game of You a couple of weeks ago, and some of the dialogue from Wilkinson got a laugh out of me.

The success of his comics career eclipsed his early rep as the biggest Douglas Adams fan. Though it is crystal clear on that Good Omens TV adaptation.

[Ferris]

Neil Gaiman was very nice to me when I was a beleaguered 20 your old and I saw him in Edinburgh and awkwardly asked for his autograph with my floppy haircut and duffel coat.

He cheerfully accepted and drew me a little sketch, completely unasked for and sent me on my way with a friendly handshake and a wave. The sketch is framed on my wall as I type this.

I suppose he had/has a lifetime of dealing with awkward comic book nerds and I'm far less awkward now (from a distance you might even confuse me with a normal person) but I've refused to hear criticism of him since.

[Deskbound Cunt]

I'm presently rereading Swamp Thing which is my fave Moore. I treated myself to the gorgeous oversized new Absolute editions which look amazing.

I've got the new Marvelman omnibus coming from Father Christmas. I read it originally in Warrior magazine and it blew my teenage mind away. I'm not expecting the same reaction now. Stuff that breaks new ground rarely stands up as it becomes cliche but my Christmas reading all the same.

Plus Illuminations is ready on my Kindle. I read a scathing review on a comic nerd site last week slagging off the story in which Moore blasts the comic book industry. Which makes me want to read it even more.

I've gone Moore mad. Jerusalem can fuck off though.

[Pink Gregory]

I loved Jerusalem.  Every little bit of it. 

[Magnum Valentino]

I'm also reading Absolute Swamp Thing at the minute and have read five of the eight Illuminations stories I intend to read (not doing the annotated beat poetry one, cba cigs)

[Mister Six]

I loved Jerusalem.  Every little bit of it. 

I loved probably half of Jerusalem, but it really felt like Moore's ambition outstripped his ability. Which is unfortunate, because when you're as able as Alan Moore, that means you end up with a 1,200-page monster of a thing.

I loved almost all of the stuff with the ghost kids, and the bits that connected directly to that thread, but reckon the book would have been stronger if all the Northampton Tourism Board bits had been spun off into their own book. The chapter where the kids go and stand around listening to William Cromwell have a conversation with his mate for no reason other than Alan Moore discovered that Cromwell had been near Northampton for a bit was a particular low. Even the last oh-so-clever metafictional chapter more or less admits that Moore let the book get away from him.

It was a bit overwritten too. Every sentence seemed to have a contrived simile or metaphor in it, sometimes two or three.  Felt like a sophomoric work, which I suppose it literally was, but Voice of the Fire managed to be challenging and creative in its use of language and imagery without ever seeming quite so ostentatious.

[Deskbound Cunt]

Neil Gaiman was very nice to me when I was a beleaguered 20 your old and I saw him in Edinburgh and awkwardly asked for his autograph with my floppy haircut and duffel coat.

He cheerfully accepted and drew me a little sketch, completely unasked for and sent me on my way with a friendly handshake and a wave. The sketch is framed on my wall as I type this.

I suppose he had/has a lifetime of dealing with awkward comic book nerds and I'm far less awkward now (from a distance you might even confuse me with a normal person) but I've refused to hear criticism of him since.

That's sweet. I met Alan Moore in similar situation. It was at a comic con just as Watchmen #1 came out. He signed my copy which I subsequently lent to a mate and never saw again. Doh.

My abiding memory of that con was seeing Marvel creators and DC creators sat in the canteen together chatting away. Poor innocent me- I was 28 at the time- was still under the belief that everyone at the two companies hated each other.

[bgmnts]

I loved Jerusalem.  Every little bit of it. 

I wimped out and i'm still trudging through the audiobook and I have just the 37 hours left. I'm incredibly functional in my art and there is no story in Jerusalem, so it is hard going at times. I enjoyed the description of what passes for the afterlife though (with the ghost kids as Mister Six mentions).

Way too big though.

[Pink Gregory]

I wimped out and i'm still trudging through the audiobook and I have just the 37 hours left. I'm incredibly functional in my art and there is no story in Jerusalem, so it is hard going at times. I enjoyed the description of what passes for the afterlife though (with the ghost kids as Mister Six mentions).

Way too big though.

The edition I have is divided into three books - the first one is mostly vignettes of different people throughout time, the second is mostly the ghost kids, the third is kind of a mix of both, it has the infamous 'Finnegan's Wake' chapter quite early on.

It's a small step, and I read them one after the other anyway, but I think it helped.

[Magnum Valentino]

Sacked another two of the stories in Illuminations in this afternoon, can't be fucked TRYING to read something.

[bgmnts]

The edition I have is divided into three books - the first one is mostly vignettes of different people throughout time, the second is mostly the ghost kids, the third is kind of a mix of both, it has the infamous 'Finnegan's Wake' chapter quite early on.

It's a small step, and I read them one after the other anyway, but I think it helped.

Ah okay. Again, to be fair I did enjoy a lot of those vignettes and the colour and character of that little area of Northampton Moore obviously cherishes is charming. He tried hard to make this Vernell/Warren family eccentric and interesting when they aren't that much. I quite liked the character who goes mental painting a church and seeing into the ether and Black Charlie wandering round the town over the years, and the notion of reality being at the whim of some people playing billiards or whatever. I also quite liked the story of the woman who loses a child and then becomes a "deathmonger" and becoming bitter and hard in old age.

There are lots of good ideas there I am just getting lost in the vastness of it. 

And almost all of Moore's work is massive, at least in my experience, in its completed form. Reading the entirety of Watchmen or From Hell were also daunting tasks but they went down so much easier compared to this. Maybe it's because it is a novel rather than a comic book who knows.

[Mister Six]

The one-volume edition of Jerusalem still splits them into three "books" IIRC.

The ghost-kid volume rattles along for the most part, and I got a real second wind at that point, but struggled again through bits of the third. Didn't even bother with the Finnegans Wake chapter, even after I found out that it's got the river-monster in it. Just couldn't be arsed.

I also thought that for all the talk of "justice above the street", it didn't do a very good job of explaining how

Spoiler alert

there is any kind of "justice" or righteousness in a predetermined universe, especially one in which several souls end up apparently tortured for eternity (the diabolist smoked by the Devil as a pipe and the poor souls who get caught and flensed by the river monster being the ones that stood out).

[close]

[Ferris]

Rewatching the Snyder version of Watchmen.

I really, genuinely think it's brilliant. A few dodgy decisions maybe, but tonally I think it's absolute bang on and Rorschach isn't idealized any more than he is in the comic.

(Which tbh has a difficult relationship with him anyway - he's obviously a bad and mental bloke, but a lot of the narration is from his perspective and he has the same sort of "edgy outsider" and a cast-iron set of morals is lauded as much as it's decried for being mad.)

Quite a lot if it is shot for shot - if this isn't a good comic remake, I don't know what is.

[13 schoolyards]

I noped out of Snyder's Watchman after the first fight, where the "superheroes" all had awesome Matrix-level physical powers rather than just being regular tough guys who knew how to throw a punch.

If you're adapting Watchmen and you make the heroes cool and awesome rather than a bit pathetic and crap, you've missed a big part of the point - which doesn't necessarily make it a bad movie (though I think it is), but the realism of Watchmen seemed to me to be a big part of the point and idealising the heroes throws that in the bin.

Also, the guy playing Ozymandias was... not good at playing Ozymandias

[Deskbound Cunt]

Rewatching the Snyder version of Watchmen.

Quite a lot if it is shot for shot - if this isn't a good comic remake, I don't know what is.

By not doing it shot for shot? That was my problem with the film; it was so literal in it's adaptation (bar the ending).

Tbh, I don't know how you'd adapt it though Terry Gilliam was attached to it at one point which would have been fascinating.

[bgmnts]

By not doing it shot for shot? That was my problem with the film; it was so literal in it's adaptation (bat the ending).

Tbh, I don't know how you'd adapt it though Terry Gilliam was attached to it at one point which would have been fascinating.

Yeah I remember Moore saying he talked with Gilliam about why it can't be adapted and that turned him off the project.

Here it is from Gilliam.

https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2021/09/terry-gilliam-and-that-watchmen-movie.html?m=1

[Mister Six]

I noped out of Snyder's Watchman after the first fight, where the "superheroes" all had awesome Matrix-level physical powers rather than just being regular tough guys who knew how to throw a punch.

If you're adapting Watchmen and you make the heroes cool and awesome rather than a bit pathetic and crap, you've missed a big part of the point

Yes, exactly. It's an object lesson in how to slavishly recreate a comic while totally failing to understand what made it work. Because Snyder is a fucking moron, god bless him. Just extremely thick. It's interesting to see how someone really dense interprets the work, though.

[Ferris]

I still liked it, come at me