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March 28, 2024, 10:42:55 AM

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A thread for moaning on and on about how the Marvel films are shite

Started by Mister Six, November 04, 2021, 11:46:31 PM

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Quote from: colacentral on November 05, 2021, 10:19:30 AM
If you had people going into the wrestling threads or the doctor who threads saying "they still making this shit yeah? You know this isn't art, right?" they'd rightfully be considered a cunt.

Wrestling and Doctor Who are still essentially subcultural, so it's not really a 1:1 comparison in terms of cultural prominence and industry influence. As bad as the WWE studios films are, they don't take up half the screens at my local multiplex for half the year.

phantom_power

Quote from: Kermit the Frog on November 05, 2021, 09:31:59 AM
I take the rest of what you've said as fair comment, but this is where you're wrong. These films do not require, nor benefit from being defended on the internet. They already have the wide cultural acceptance and global success that completely displaces any need to mount a larger campaign to defend them at the grassroots level. Any defence must be taken up with the knowledge and acceptance that you've already won, ten times over, and that there's nothing more to gain.

Sorry, I didn't think it actually required a defence, but that it could seem like it did from fans who keep seeing criticisms of things they like online

phantom_power

Quote from: madhair60 on November 05, 2021, 09:55:28 AM
happy to be considered a snob when I'm getting called pretentious for expressing disinterest in Captain America

I don't think anyone sensible is saying it is snobbish to not be interested in comic book films. There is a certain attitude that people who do like them are somehow not true film fans, as if you can't like Marvel and Tarkovsky and see that they serve different purposes. Not all Marvel criticism is guilty of this but it can be hard to differentiate sometimes and I think some fans get over-defensive at this perceived inferiority

samadriel

Quote from: Dex Sawash on November 05, 2021, 10:20:39 AM
Any point in seeing Logan if I haven't seen any other X-people things/dgaf about superfilms?

You might get additional enjoyment by watching the first two X-Men movies first, if you're completely unfamiliar with the premise (all the others are shit apart from First Class, and even that is pretty irrelevant). Maybe just read their wiki articles if that's too much of an investment. Logan is fucking terrific, and not weighed down by continuity at all; it's not too much to ask that you be familiar with the basic premise of the X-Men, they've been around since the 60s.

Chedney Honks

It's actually great to have another thread about Marvel because every other thread in this subforum is a million pages per Marvel film or Bond or whatever, plus threads by me about a wide range of other films which get three replies. 😂😂😂

purlieu

Quote from: Old Nehamkin on November 05, 2021, 09:31:11 AM
Are threads about specific Marvel films only allowed to contain positive comments, then? That doesn't seem to apply to any other film that gets discussed on here but if that's the new rule then OK.
Not quite the case though, is it? I'm happy to say I thought Black Widow was pretty crap, despite enjoying a lot of MCU films and shows. But going into a Marvel film thread with the express purpose of complaining about the MCU in general, without having seen the film, without actually having a genuine interest in it or desire to enjoy it, is effectively little more trolling, and it ends up in arguments that disrupt the thread for people who are actually interested in discussing the film itself. Nobody's saying you're 'only allowed' to make positive comments, but a thread like this does allow for discussion about what people hate about the MCU franchise in general without it rolling over to every single thread about every film and TV series.

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: purlieu on November 05, 2021, 11:41:14 AM
Not quite the case though, is it? I'm happy to say I thought Black Widow was pretty crap, despite enjoying a lot of MCU films and shows. But going into a Marvel film thread with the express purpose of complaining about the MCU in general, without having seen the film, without actually having a genuine interest in it or desire to enjoy it, is effectively little more trolling, and it ends up in arguments that disrupt the thread for people who are actually interested in discussing the film itself. Nobody's saying you're 'only allowed' to make positive comments, but a thread like this does allow for discussion about what people hate about the MCU franchise in general without it rolling over to every single thread about every film and TV series.

I think this kind of thing happens to some extent in most active movie threads, though. Just on the front page right now, the threads for The French Dispatch, Last Night in Soho and Old all feature some posts from people criticising and commenting generally on the relevant filmmakers and their bodies of work without necessarily having seen the film in question or even showing an interest in seeing it. I don't doubt that there are some people who go into Marvel threads with the main intention of winding folk up a bit, but I think you also need to keep in mind that these films are a very major cultural and commercial force, are marketed very aggressively and press their influence on the wider worlds of cinema and television in a number of tangible ways. I don't think that anybody should be insulted or shamed for simply enjoying these films, but I think it's fair enough for people who aren't fans to still feel an interest in discussing them in general or broad-scale critical terms.

Quote from: purlieu on November 05, 2021, 11:41:14 AM
Nobody's saying you're 'only allowed' to make positive comments, but a thread like this does allow for discussion about what people hate about the MCU franchise in general without it rolling over to every single thread about every film and TV series.

I think it's only two properly Marvel-related threads that have been derailed (and one of these was called 'Shiternals', so it's not like it started off well) and the rest of the negativity comes from the threads that were purposely started as an outlet for such negativity? It seems, from a glance, that most of the Marvel threads about the films and TV specifically have been pretty much undisturbed. So the phrase 'every single thread', which has come up a couple of times I think, reads as another example of the oversensitivity I was referring to upthread.

Butchers Blind

I like the ending of these films where everyone flies around in the air fighting the big bad.

kngen

Totally bought into the MCU and watched all of them in 'the correct order' (and even some of the affiliated TV programmes), as that's what I needed at that time of my life. Enjoyed most of them, and was incredibly impressed how they managed to tie all the threads together, while other major franchises (included Star Wars, the biggest one of all) were making an absolute arse of it. But Endgame really drew a line under it all for me. I'm done; it's done - it needs to go away now and stop taking up so much cultural space.

I can't help but feel that Lady Thor with Natalie Portman has all the hallmarks of a major flop, and Marvel can just retreat back under the wings of Disney Plus and stream a few new films there for the diehards every few months, and leave the rest of us alone. Wishful thinking, I know.

Replies From View

One thing that bugs me about Thor is why isn't he just called Maxwell?

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Replies From View on November 05, 2021, 12:24:45 PM
One thing that bugs me about Thor is why isn't he just called Maxwell?

Cos his surname is House.  Would be embarrassing.

peanutbutter

Sam Raimi seems like a good fit for Dr Strange, right? Have to imagine Disney are kinda viewing that character as a bit of a write off for future sequels and will let Raimi have quite a bit of freedom to see if it can be revitalised a bit, he's also experienced enough that he'll know how to tell the execs to piss off.



Looking at Phase IV the real mistake so far seems to be that they didn't have something like that a bit earlier in instead of committing so hard to their co-opting of critically acclaimed newer directors, or just use one of the bigger names in the middle. The real concern now from Disney's side is if people have gotten jaded will it be hard to get them back on board. These things were running on a decade long chain of hype, breaking that could be pretty harmful.

The next 4 are Spider Man, Dr Strange 2, Black Panther 2 and Thor whatever, presumably at least 2 of those are going to do extremely well. If not then that's the point they should start being concerned.

Midas

no one should be bullied for liking these films, but i don't think it's unfair to describe marvel fans as offal-swilling carrion

greenman

Quote from: kngen on November 05, 2021, 12:21:06 PM
Totally bought into the MCU and watched all of them in 'the correct order' (and even some of the affiliated TV programmes), as that's what I needed at that time of my life. Enjoyed most of them, and was incredibly impressed how they managed to tie all the threads together, while other major franchises (included Star Wars, the biggest one of all) were making an absolute arse of it. But Endgame really drew a line under it all for me. I'm done; it's done - it needs to go away now and stop taking up so much cultural space.

I can't help but feel that Lady Thor with Natalie Portman has all the hallmarks of a major flop, and Marvel can just retreat back under the wings of Disney Plus and stream a few new films there for the diehards every few months, and leave the rest of us alone. Wishful thinking, I know.

Not sure I see that, I think it will probably anger the angery bro market but really thats not large enough to be significant and Ragnarok seems to be one of the best thought of MCU films.

Really it does feel like the franchise is on a bit of an extended hitatus in terms of very significant films, the Loki series was a bit more significant I spose but it feels like the Spiderman film will be the first really big Marvel since End Game.

I did feel like the main positives of the franchise were the Russo's films and the "cosmic" ones like Guardians and Ragnarok, the former especially did I think manage to inject some quite adult drama into the franchise rather than the typical power fantasys and redemption arcs. Its honestly why I look at something like Dune as being talked up as weighter and I'm not really sure its true, its setting is deadly serious but really is the film itself much more than another action blockbuster power fantasy?

I'd say part of Disney's dominance is really built on them realising that the existing studio setup was very stalel, too many decisions being made by execs with limited vision and arguebly more focus on power struggles between execs than sucess. They could see Marvel and Pixar were much fresher ground were there hadnt been time for that kind of situation to emerge. Basically picking out studios that looked like they were going to be winners anyway and exploiting that.

kngen

Quote from: greenman on November 05, 2021, 01:23:09 PM
Not sure I see that, I think it will probably anger the angery bro market but really thats not large enough to be significant and Ragnarok seems to be one of the best thought of MCU films.

Yeah, Ragnarok is great. Definitely one of my favourites. But isn't the funny and charismatic Chris Hemsworth fucking off with the GotG crew, and being replaced by Natalie Portman (who is neither of those things. Taiki Waititi will have his work cut out getting a tune out of her) for Love and Thunder. I know Hemsworth is listed in the cast, but I've seen Smokey and the Bandit III, and they're not conning me like that again, the bastards.

I've no doubt the angry bro contingent will be out in force. Maybe they'll do as a good as job as scuttling this as they did with Captain Marvel (which, means, yes, contrary to what I said before, Love and Thunder will probably be a massive hit).

phantom_power

Portman has got some form for being able to do comedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS8bma7LRX4

and I am sure Waititi wouldn't promote that character without knowing she could handle it. It remains to be seen if LadyThor is just for this film or an ongoing concern

madhair60

Ragnarok was my least favourite of the lot. Joke after joke and not a single one landed for me. Huge things happened and I felt nothing, no stakes at all, by design. Also lacked any of the fish-out-of-water fun of the first one.

kngen

Quote from: phantom_power on November 05, 2021, 01:44:31 PM
I am sure Waititi wouldn't promote that character without knowing she could handle it. It remains to be seen if LadyThor is just for this film or an ongoing concern

Fair point. Just can't say I'm excitedly counting the days till its release, but then I've already established my Marvel fatigue, so I should probably just shut up now.

phantom_power

I think End Game was such a culmination and what has followed has been relatively stand-alone that it hard to get excited about any of them. Shang Chi was pretty good I thought. Black Widow was shit and The Eternals doesn't interest me at all. It is only when the multiverse stuff kicks off properly with Spideman and Dr Strange that my interest is piqued again. I love Waititi so I am also looking forward to Thor

purlieu

Quote from: Kermit the Frog on November 05, 2021, 12:03:05 PMSo the phrase 'every single thread', which has come up a couple of times I think, reads as another example of the oversensitivity I was referring to upthread.
I might have just wandered into the wrong threads then, but every time I've seen a Marvel thread it's had a lot of said negativity. But I don't check them all that often (usually because I end up seeing stuff months after it comes out and I don't want spoilers), so I might have ended up with an exaggerated version of it all, in which case apologies.
Quote from: Old Nehamkin on November 05, 2021, 12:01:09 PMI don't doubt that there are some people who go into Marvel threads with the main intention of winding folk up a bit[...]I don't think that anybody should be insulted or shamed for simply enjoying these films
Yeah, I suppose it's this kind of thing I'm generally referring to, which there definitely is some of in whichever threads it is I've had a look at. Just a bit too much "lol imagine being an adult and thinking this is good" bullshit which just makes the thread inherently unpleasant.

bgmnts

I think it was Albert Newton who said that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

So presumably in terms of physics, the negative reaction should be stronger and more vociferous because the positive reactions is so overwhelming. Even if you consider the negative to most things is going to be a minority, it rises and falls with the positivity.

dissolute ocelot

The Fast and Furious films are better than Marvel, yet we don't have 800 threads about Vin Diesel looking old and decrepit and getting his ass kicked by Dwayne Johnson or people making puns about Hobbs and Shaw. Transformers are much much worse, and there are no threads at all about them (excluding 80s Transformers which is proper art.) Maybe the Marvel films are just the right amount of greedy low-effort franchise film-making, tolerable enough to watch, bad enough to hate.

peanutbutter

Quote from: dissolute ocelot on November 05, 2021, 05:05:57 PM
Transformers are much much worse, and there are no threads at all about them (excluding 80s Transformers which is proper art.) Maybe the Marvel films are just the right amount of greedy low-effort franchise film-making, tolerable enough to watch, bad enough to hate.
Totally incomparable on a zeitgeist level; there's been 6 Transformer films in 15 years, the last one was almost 3 years ago and several of the most recent ones done quite poorly in the English speaking world. Even beyond that there's practically no debate on whether they're considered good.

sevendaughters

Pirates of the Caribbean is the worst franchise, absolutely fucking interminable shit

sevendaughters

best one probably Alien I guess but still, diminishing returns

madhair60

Can people stop praising the Marvel movies in this thread, please? op stated it is solely for calling them shite.

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: greenman on November 05, 2021, 01:23:09 PM
it feels like the Spiderman film will be the first really big Marvel since End Game.

Amusingly, there's BEEN a Spider-Man film since Endgame. Feels like so long ago now. I didn't realise I'd been as fatigued by these films as I probably have, now I come to reckon.


Mister Six

Quote from: madhair60 on November 05, 2021, 05:26:21 PM
Can people stop praising the Marvel movies in this thread, please? op stated it is solely for calling them shite.

Genuinely why I haven't responded to people in here until now