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Deep Red (Profondo Rosso)

Started by Crenners, January 20, 2022, 08:32:23 PM

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Crenners

I love Suspiria, I really enjoyed Demons but I have yet to enjoy any other gialli that I've seen. There were plenty of relevant suggestions in my arthouse erotic slasher type thread, albeit Deep Red didn't feature. I've had it for ages and several times found the first forty-five minutes pretty boring and aimless.

I've now watched it and I feel like there's clearly some great stuff in there but fundamentally, it's not something I can see myself wanting to watch again. I love the kill sequences cinematography, the music and the object fetishism (rather Borowczyk) but most everything else is a chore. Almost every time Hemmings appeared, it felt like a different quite shit film.

Is that kind of thing part of the charm? Is the 'bad acting' some of the appeal for giallo fans? The humour and goofiness reminds me of some daft BBC 2 70s sitcom. Again, maybe that's part of why people like these films.

I'll keep going with Argento and I'll eventually get through the Bava stuff I have but I'm struggling a bit. Any thoughts?

Small Man Big Horse

I watched it in November and wasn't a huge fan, and posted this in the non-new films thread:

Deep Red (1975) -  I think there's a great eighty minute movie here, but at two hours seven minutes there's an awful lot of filler, and some quite dodgy acting and weak dialogue. To start off with the positives, Argento ramps up the tension really effectively in some scenes, the lead up to a violent act is almost always gripping, and some of the imagery is unforgettable and the violence is brutal and horrendous, and I really liked the jazzy soundtrack. On the downside, and unfortunately it's a pretty big one, I could not stand David Hemmings's character, I presume we weren't meant to given his tedious and blatant sexism, but to spend so long following him around and listening to the crap he came out with really frustrated, and him taking an ice age to solve the mystery was extremely annoying.
Spoiler alert
I also didn't really get on with journalist / love interest Gianna, and presumed she must be the killer as her finding him attractive despite his constant shitty behaviour suggested she was suffering from a severe mental illness,
[close]
and some of the acting from supporting characters was also hammy as hell. 6.4/10

I've seen Suspiria and The Bird With The Crystal Plumage and only really enjoyed the former, I've heard that Phenomena is the one other film Argento directed that is highly praised so may give that a go at some point this year, but if I don't get on with it I'll mark him down as a director that I just don't click with.

madhair60


Crenners

@Small Man Big Horse

I feel like I'm on exactly the same page as you there. It's a weird one because whenever that amazing soundtrack kicks in and the camera starts panning or zooming and something grisly happens, I'm completely on board. The next, it kicks back to Hemmings snooping around ineffectually without much happening or some pretty chronic dialogue.

As a kaiju fan, I'm well used to building a tolerance in the wait for the good bits but there's rather a lot of flab here. I also found it fairly difficult and illogical to follow but that may have been that I tuned out during some key exposition.

I plan to watch Tenebrae next, I haven't got anything else by him but there's a lot on the Arrow Player. It's slightly disappointing because I do adore Suspiria.

petercussing

For the love of god, how many times, man, watch Phenomena next instead, it will tick all you boxes super hard and is not remotely boring, it's absolutely insane and is a very similar film to suspiria, i reckon personally. Tenebrae is good but could potentially put you off others i think.

RE: the acting in these, it's not even something i notice that much any more, obviously there's super funny bits of odd acting, there's a funny bit in Terror at the Opera where a lady decides all of a sudden to unmask the killer she's knocked out in a really ott fashion, but it doesn't bother me. About 30% of my film collection are Italian films so i guess i like it, but watch enough of these and you won't give a fuck about it. I've been watching them since i be teenaged and now i'm old man.

Half the issue is them doing a film in a foreign language and the fact they are dubbed (largely by the same 5 ppl).

I guess i'm saying yes, you get used to it and when it's glaring is often funny enough to be enjoyable.

Deep Red is a bit boring and probably about 20 mins too long, but i like it, it took me a couple of goes.

I would also add that it took a long time for Argento to click for me, with me just enjoying Suspiria so i think he might be something that is an acquired taste. I now think he's the best horror director.

I guess i'm also saying you need to be tough with big muscles, and cool and clever to like him and only puny, drooling babies don't like him and his objectively good films that cool people like.

zomgmouse

Suspiria is my favourite Argento (and horror) and I loved Deep Red maybe my second-fav of his. So make of that what you will.

phantom_power

I find the bad acting and dubbing just adds to the dream-like quality of his films, and giallos in general, plus the weird combinations of people originally speaking in either English or Italian before they are dubbed

Glebe

Watched a 1080p copy of it streaming online awhile ago, hadn't seen it for years. Stylish, scary and great music.


petercussing

^^^^^^^^ These guys are all cool and clever and are tough with big muscles, you'll note, Crenford.

greenman

Deep Red(especially the longer Italian cut) does spend quite a bit of time on the comedy between Hemmings and Nicolodi so how you react to that is I spose a significant factor.

The whole thing does seem to be playing quite a lot on Blow Up, basically knocking down Hemmings persona from that film. That does I think work quite well as he isnt some over the top macho caricature having his masculinity threatened.

thenoise

Watch Inferno next (thematic sequel to Suspiria). Its flawed as is all Argento, but doesn't threaten to turn into a terrible Italian Sex Comedy for half its running time.

I rented the VHS as a teen (on the Redemption label) not knowing what it was. I do remember that it was so badly cropped that there were long dialog scenes where neither of the characters were on screen. God I loved the music though. Held up my cassette recorded to the TV speaker to get a copy of it, I did. What a cool dude.

greenman

Although really if you can stomach 80's Golden Harvest comedy I'd say this is significantly milder with Hemmings not really that cartoonish.

That a not very imposing jazz pianist has his macho hangups does I think make them rather more amusing.

sevendaughters

From what I can tell the only Argento I really go for is Crystal Plumage bcs it's basically a modern Hitchcock and really tight. Everything else just doesn't really grab me in the same way.

Egyptian Feast

Quote from: thenoise on January 21, 2022, 06:08:40 PMI rented the VHS as a teen (on the Redemption label) not knowing what it was. I do remember that it was so badly cropped that there were long dialog scenes where neither of the characters were on screen. God I loved the music though. Held up my cassette recorded to the TV speaker to get a copy of it, I did. What a cool dude.

I did that too! I was especially keen to get the music playing while Hemmings explores the house and the synth freak out when he does something ill-advised and nearly falls to his death.

I had the Redemption VHS too and was amused to see how badly it was cropped when I eventually saw it on DVD. That conversation between Hemmings and Carlo the pianist at opposite sides of the frame looks ridiculous when it's just a fixed shot of a statue for ages.

Crenners

Quote from: greenman on January 22, 2022, 04:32:48 AMAlthough really if you can stomach 80's Golden Harvest comedy I'd say this is significantly milder with Hemmings not really that cartoonish.

That a not very imposing jazz pianist has his macho hangups does I think make them rather more amusing.

You're right, I do have the stomach for much sillier stuff. I think it's probably a question of expectations. It often felt jarring to me but I can see that it's part of the appeal for fans. Maybe I'll enjoy that stuff more on a rewatch down the line.

Gonna watch Tenebrae perhaps today based on the posts here, especially cussin.

Big Mclargehuge

Quote from: madhair60 on January 20, 2022, 09:09:25 PMfuckin TENEBRAE mate

This mate! FUCKIN TENEBRAE. it's my favourite Argento movie and a DAMN good Giallo/Slasher movie.

Deep Red to me feels like Suspiria but with non of the fun/weird/charming bits. barring the weird scene with the clockwork dummy and the opening sequence the whole film could best be summerised as "Man walks around and occasionally gets startled." I think it's a film thats been able to coast a lot on the Goblin soundtrack (which is insanely well done) and a couple of scenes that are pretty fun to run through. but on the whole...I didnt enjoy it as much as I'd have wanted to having come to it off the back of "Suspiria" and "Inferno"

But yeh...definitely check out Tenebrae. its surprisingly good fun.

zomgmouse

i would say don't go in to Tenebrae expecting a horror film. go in expecting a mystery thriller and you'll enjoy it more (i went in expecting a horror film and was a bit disappointed)

Crenners

Re: Tenebrae

Yessss this is more like it for me. A bit weirder, bloodier, less goofy, more violent, erotic, angular 80s lines, more vibrant characters, soundtrack is immense. I'm only halfway but having an intermission.

greenman

Its much more a real giallo I would say really were as Deep Red is mostly an exercise in style and social commentary shoehorned into a typical murder mystery.

Crenners

Quote from: greenman on January 23, 2022, 11:18:31 AMIts much more a real giallo I would say really were as Deep Red is mostly an exercise in style and social commentary shoehorned into a typical murder mystery.

I'll definitely give Deep Red another chance, I think my expectations were a little in the way.

As for Tenebrae, I loved it. I didn't find the resolution necessarily very satisfying but it worked well enough and pretty much everything along the way hit the spot for me. I definitely enjoy a little eroticism with my stylised murders and this had plenty of both, quite playful and a little sleazy, spectacularly beautiful performers. I also found the cinematography gorgeous, especially capturing the weird dated futuristic houses and those clean 80s lines of staircases and windows and furniture. Soundtrack is probably my favourite of the Argento I've seen, also realised how much of a giant sample/rip-off Justice's Phantom track was fifteen years ago.

Hope Arrow manages to do a 4K remaster. I'd be there day one.

greenman

Quote from: Crenners on January 23, 2022, 03:25:46 PMI'll definitely give Deep Red another chance, I think my expectations were a little in the way.

As for Tenebrae, I loved it. I didn't find the resolution necessarily very satisfying but it worked well enough and pretty much everything along the way hit the spot for me. I definitely enjoy a little eroticism with my stylised murders and this had plenty of both, quite playful and a little sleazy, spectacularly beautiful performers. I also found the cinematography gorgeous, especially capturing the weird dated futuristic houses and those clean 80s lines of staircases and windows and furniture. Soundtrack is probably my favourite of the Argento I've seen, also realised how much of a giant sample/rip-off Justice's Phantom track was fifteen years ago.

Hope Arrow manages to do a 4K remaster. I'd be there day one.

I'm guessing it might well be the next inline for a UHD from Arrow, there putting out Phenomena in a couple of months although its not had a 4K mastered HD release so far like most of the others did a few years ago.

I get the feeling with Argento from his era that really the starting point for the films seems like its the architecture. Tenebrae does really feel like a harsh modernist yuppie giallo to go with the builings in it.

petercussing

Yeeeah, i knew you were clever and cool, regardless, but i didn't realise you had such big muscles and were so tough, Crensley, perhaps cos i always imagine you in such baggy clothing it really covers them up, I'm only imagining you in speedos and a short crop top now. I was worried that Tenebreezy would be tough for you to lift after the struggle with lifting Deep Rot, but fears unfounded!!!!!!

Did you like the twist at the end? The ends of his films usually do superficially seem to fizzle a smidge, like "here's a crazy thing and now i'm not sure how to end it", but i like the style of them now.

Quote from: greenman on January 23, 2022, 04:19:33 PMI get the feeling with Argento from his era that really the starting point for the films seems like its the architecture. Tenebrae does really feel like a harsh modernist yuppie giallo to go with the builings in it.

Oh, this is a good point i've not thought of, it really does, doesn't it. You could even extend that to the theatre in Demonds to a degree.

Tenebrae is supposed to be set in the near future isn't it but they chose not to lean into it as far as i remember. It's totes early 80s in the best way.

Crenners

Quote from: petercussing on January 23, 2022, 06:53:29 PMDid you like the twist at the end? The ends of his films usually do superficially seem to fizzle a smidge, like "here's a crazy thing and now i'm not sure how to end it", but i like the style of them now.

I certainly didn't see it coming so I didn't process it or the reasoning, I was more just into the tension and shock of the sequence. I'll look forward to unpicking it a bit more next time and seeing if it's hinted at earlier.

Also, I started Deep Red again and already enjoying it much more for seeing Hemmings rather as the butt of the joke. I listened to the Projection Booth episode on it and I realise I was coming at it with expectations of supernatural Suspiria fairy tale dreaminess and it's going for something different.

Also, this evening I watched Bava's Blood and Black Lace which I'd tried and bounced off a couple of times. I really enjoyed it this time, taking it purely as a stylish whodunnit rather than a horror. I loved the colours and lighting and costumes and sets. The seedy side of 60s psych. I think I'll have to watch more Bava now, plus the earlier Argento gialli.

It's nice when something new clicks.

zomgmouse

Quote from: Crenners on January 24, 2022, 10:18:20 PMAlso, this evening I watched Bava's Blood and Black Lace which I'd tried and bounced off a couple of times. I really enjoyed it this time, taking it purely as a stylish whodunnit rather than a horror. I loved the colours and lighting and costumes and sets. The seedy side of 60s psych. I think I'll have to watch more Bava now, plus the earlier Argento gialli.

It's nice when something new clicks.

Would be interesting to see what you make of his 1960 Black Sunday with Barbara Steele - certainly a more straightforward horror and it's in B&W so none of the colour flourishes but it's truly astoundingly atmospheric.

Shit Good Nose

It tends to be forgotten amongst the Argentos, Bavas, Lenzis and Martinos, but I can HIGHLY recommend Luigi Bazzoni's The Fifth Cord.  Imagine a giallo directed by someone like Alan J Pakula.

It's also sponsored by blinds.com rather than J & B.

madhair60

Blood and Black Lace is a looker for sure, a beautiful film

petercussing

Yeah, you could easily imagine Audrey Hepburn emerging at the start of BABL, proper old fashioned hollywood looking film there.

Hey, A Bay of Blood is Bava, Crenstein and is from 1971 so would be a good 'un to pump up them muscles(obviously after you watch Phenomena and then Terror at the Opera, this sentence is very overt neurolinguistic programme and you can't see it).

Crenners

Thanks for all the Bava chat and recs, folks. I'll be investigating soon. I bet there's some on the Arrow Player or similar. Black Sunday sounds particularly intriguing.

As for Deep Red, well, I enjoyed it an awful lot more on the rewatch. I ordered the Arrow UHD release because it was on offer and it's a gorgeous transfer, even better than the excellent Blu-ray.

I actually really enjoyed the romantic comedy elements, they're so good for puncturing Hemmings' puffed-up Hardy Boys shtick. Daria Nicolodi is excellent and I like all the gender role playfulness and chat, especially knowing the identity of the killer. I also enjoyed it much more watching it as a mystery thriller kind of thing, seeing the various hints and symbols and enjoying the dialogue, punctuated by some spectacular death set pieces. Soundtrack also gets better and better, possibly my favourite from an Argento film.

Glad I started the thread and cheers for the various perspectives.

Crenners

Thinking back on some of the bits I most enjoyed second time around and the highlight is Hemmings exploring the abandoned house.

It could have been a gradual build up of tension, over the shoulder camera type of thing, wondering what's round each corner. Bollocks to that. Constant variety, little dolly movements, range of fixed angles, from overhead to floor level, doors opening towards the screen, close ups, slow winding pans up stairs. It's so visually engaging and the groovy music makes it feel like a proper cool, mysterious vibe, like it's a bit of fun, a sort of game - which it is to Hemmings.

And then suddenly, the shots get narrower and more claustrophobic and the music cuts out to the heartbeat thump and he starts to shit himself and goes back outside. Hmm...real shift in the tone. Thump thump. Thump thump. He's got to go back, though. Can't help himself. Thump thump. The window creaking shut gives us reason to start shitting ourselves, too. That broken pane foreshadows a violent end. Thump thump. He creeps back through the house, eyes wide and then he sees it. The flash of red behind the plaster! Immediate drop into the main theme and it's gone from a mysterious whodunnit to horror.

I think that's an amazing scene, does so much despite almost nothing of note happening.