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July 14, 2024, 11:53:50 PM

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Python Wars

Started by Keebleman, February 11, 2024, 12:38:14 AM

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daf

Quote from: madhair60 on February 11, 2024, 03:19:07 PMi could have sworn they put these out. maybe on the R1 DVDs?

You're right - there seems to be a few region 1 DVDs available on ebay (though they look a bit "grey market" - PIDAX anyone?) - and, oddly, an Australian release. Where's the sodding UK version, though - is it a rights nightmare or something?

lauraxsynthesis

Quote from: markburgle on February 11, 2024, 01:31:44 PMI'm sure most of us could've made the money Idle got from the 50th anniversary shows (£2.2 million, supposedly) last for at least half a lifetime. He's just forgotten how to not live expensively (or is unwilling to try).

Idle says it went to that Holy Grail producer who successfully sued them for Spamalot royalties. That does seem likely and would explain why they all did the show in spite of previous refusal and Jones being ill.

Bad Ambassador

I think they're both on Netflix.

Idle reminds me a bit of Pete Campbell from Mad Men. A total snake when it comes to business and routinely tries it on with female subordinates despite being married to Alison Brie, yet he's quietly appalled by the casual racism in the office and openly cries when MLK is shot.

Ferris

Quote from: markburgle on February 11, 2024, 01:31:44 PMI'm sure most of us could've made the money Idle got from the 50th anniversary shows (£2.2 million, supposedly) last for at least half a lifetime.

£2.2m at 8% a year in an index fund is £176k per year. That's £154k a year after tax (capital gains rate rather than income tax), for doing absolutely nothing.

The average FTSE global return rate for the past 10 years is actually 1.75x the 8% I've assumed there so one could theoretically live on a £2.2m at a rate of £270k per year after tax, every year, forever, without ever touching the principle. Then you leave that £2.2m to the next generation and they do the same. With some not very complex planning, it's more or less foolproof and requires no effort at all.

You could spend your life doing whatever you wanted. Earn more if you wish, go traveling, stay in bed watching snooker, whatever you like and it boggles my mind that rich people don't do this. I have no sympathy for Idle who had his chance at this for the millionth time in his life to do this and didn't, as I'd kill for the opportunity to live a life of endless leisure.

Quote from: lauraxsynthesis on February 11, 2024, 03:29:06 PMThat does seem likely and would explain why they all did the show in spite of previous refusal and Jones being ill.
Terry Jones hadn't actually been diagnosed with FTD at the time of the O2 shows. He had trouble remembering the occasional line, but it was joked about at the time.

bgmnts

Quote from: lauraxsynthesis on February 11, 2024, 03:29:06 PMIdle says it went to that Holy Grail producer who successfully sued them for Spamalot royalties. That does seem likely and would explain why they all did the show in spite of previous refusal and Jones being ill.

They openly admit in a doc for the show that they did it for money due to being sued by that bloke.

Even a decade ago Python wasn't earning much money.

dead-ced-dead

Quote from: markburgle on February 11, 2024, 01:31:44 PMI'm sure most of us could've made the money Idle got from the 50th anniversary shows (£2.2 million, supposedly) last for at least half a lifetime. He's just forgotten how to not live expensively (or is unwilling to try).

Idle was also in a dozen or so Hollywood films across the 90s (Casper being the highlight, which I still really like). He must have earned a few million across that time.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: DrGreggles on February 11, 2024, 10:24:29 AMThat's famously untrue. They were Lennon/McCartney for 30 years.
I think Neil finally got a Lennon/McCartney/Innes credit, but not back royalties.

At one talk with Innes I went to, he touched upon this, I think he said the arrangement was that the Beatles's rightholders (at that time, Lou Grade's ATV) should get 50% and him, the other 50%. However, pretty sure he also said that he's never received anything. In Jem Roberts' Fab Fools, he's quoted as saying that an offer was made that could have the copyright but only 10% of the royalties, which he refused and it was increased to 50%.

Innes said that the expert for t'other side claimed one his Rutles tracks was based on Twist and Shout... so obviously, he had been ripping off The Beatles. His publishers hired a musicologist (which I think, Innes ended up paying) and thought they would win a court case - but because they were worried about winning but not being awarded costs as well, they didn't want to fight it.

Idle was very critical over ATV about this IIRC but it's a shame he didn't modify his own approach.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Sinister Josef Fritzl looking cunt

Ignatius_S

Quote from: daf on February 11, 2024, 02:57:41 PMI'm still waiting for Rutland Weekend Televison, plus the two Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus Specials to be released - WHERE ARE THEY??


The latter had been released at least twice on DVD, although don't think there's been a UK one.

With the former, Idle had been pretty dismissive about its quality.
Personally, I've felt he's leery about something where Innes was so integral (again).

Icehaven

Quote from: Ferris on February 11, 2024, 03:41:43 PM£2.2m at 8% a year in an index fund is £176k per year. That's £154k a year after tax (capital gains rate rather than income tax), for doing absolutely nothing.

The average FTSE global return rate for the past 10 years is actually 1.75x the 8% I've assumed there so one could theoretically live on a £2.2m at a rate of £270k per year after tax, every year, forever, without ever touching the principle. Then you leave that £2.2m to the next generation and they do the same. With some not very complex planning, it's more or less foolproof and requires no effort at all.

You could spend your life doing whatever you wanted. Earn more if you wish, go traveling, stay in bed watching snooker, whatever you like and it boggles my mind that rich people don't do this. I have no sympathy for Idle who had his chance at this for the millionth time in his life to do this and didn't, as I'd kill for the opportunity to live a life of endless leisure.

But that's nowhere near enough for the lifestyle to which they either are or were accustomed or believe they should be. 2.2 million couldn't get you a substantial home or homes in high demand locations, and even if you didn't need property a measly 270k a year wouldn't cover all the luxury goods, cars, travel, restaurants etc. that they consider a normal part of life. It's like the other extreme of when Tories etc. say it's easy to live on minimum wage or benefits, we can't possibly understand what it's like to think an income of a quarter mill a year isn't very much.

Mister Six

#41
Quote from: Ferris on February 11, 2024, 03:41:43 PMI'd kill for the opportunity to live a life of endless leisure.

Me too, but our idea of endless leisure is different to Idle's, because he's got all these celeb mates with big swimming pools and new flash cars and he wants his big swimming pool and new flash car, dammit. The sense of entitlement is ridiculous. "Ooh, I have to work at 80!" No you don't - sell your property and buy a nice bungalow in the suburbs, like most other English pensioners.

markburgle

Quote from: lauraxsynthesis on February 11, 2024, 03:29:06 PMIdle says it went to that Holy Grail producer who successfully sued them for Spamalot royalties.

Quote from: bgmnts on February 11, 2024, 03:43:59 PMThey openly admit in a doc for the show that they did it for money due to being sued by that bloke.

The thing I saw (admittedly just the first result on Goggle) said £2.2m each "after paying off their creditors".

Needing to pay off the lawsuit may have been the motivating factor, but it's not to say they didn't make far in excess of that. The award to that producer was only £220k.

Ferris

Re: him thinking it's not enough - I agree but tough shit, he's on the breadline with the rest of us so doing zero work for six figures every year is the way it goes.

The sense of entitlement he presumably feels by not doing this is why I feel zero sympathy.

He could live a quality of life superior to a medieval king, and get paid more than I earn getting out of bed every day too early, going to an office for 8 hours running around like a blue arsed fly, working and getting shit done to deadlines, organizing childcare, commuting and all that bollocks. He has to do nothing, and complains about it.

Fuck him, basically.

markburgle

Quote from: Ferris on February 11, 2024, 03:41:43 PMI have no sympathy for Idle who had his chance at this for the millionth time in his life to do this and didn't, as I'd kill for the opportunity to live a life of endless leisure.

Exactly. He's a fucking boneheaded twonk like all rich people, lacking the basic awareness to see that hey, if a Porsche didn't cure your inadequacy, a Lambhourghini isn't the answer

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: Elderly Sumo Prophecy on February 11, 2024, 04:17:08 PMSinister Josef Fritzl looking cunt
haha fuck

also I just did some sums and 270k/your works out at nearly 5200/week, 7 times what I make right now. I want 2.2 million so I can live off the interest.

Pranet

If my premium bonds come up my working days are over.

DrGreggles

Quote from: Ignatius_S on February 11, 2024, 04:07:42 PMAt one talk with Innes I went to, he touched upon this, I think he said the arrangement was that the Beatles's rightholders (at that time, Lou Grade's ATV) should get 50% and him, the other 50%. However, pretty sure he also said that he's never received anything. In Jem Roberts' Fab Fools, he's quoted as saying that an offer was made that could have the copyright but only 10% of the royalties, which he refused and it was increased to 50%.

Innes said that the expert for t'other side claimed one his Rutles tracks was based on Twist and Shout... so obviously, he had been ripping off The Beatles. His publishers hired a musicologist (which I think, Innes ended up paying) and thought they would win a court case - but because they were worried about winning but not being awarded costs as well, they didn't want to fight it.

Idle was very critical over ATV about this IIRC but it's a shame he didn't modify his own approach.

Twist and Shout wouldn't come under the same agreement anyway.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


Elderly Sumo Prophecy

I read a quote from Cleese that Idle never really knew who he was, he never had a strong sense of identity. So he'd go away to spend time with George Harrison (who Idle is fucking OBSESSED with. I'm sure they were secretly bumming) and come back speaking like the fifth Beatle.

Jerzy Bondov

I love Gilliam's films and his animations and demented performances in Python but there are too many reports of him acting the cunt on film sets, particularly to women. Now, is it worth it to have a film like Brazil? Who can say. Not me. I'm just a humble poster online.

superthunderstingcar

I love The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, but it isn't the fact that Gilliam was a cunt to Sarah Polley that makes it good. I can't see how that improved the movie in any way, though I admit that a callous disregard for Health & Safety may have made it quicker and/or cheaper to film.

Quote from: Memorex MP3 on February 11, 2024, 03:18:06 PMI remember about 15 years ago there was a crash in the value of Elvis memorabilia between all the collectors either dying or needing the money for healthcare. Considering comedy tends to age out a lot more than most other artforms surely Python's just done as a major money maker.


Not necessarily. The problem the Pythons have is that they keep selling the rights to the highest bidder. Whilst this obviously nets them the maximum money available at the time, the work becomes fodder to bulk out a catalogue, rather than being cherished and celebrated.

UKTV's recent "celebrations" of Blackadder, Dad's Army, Hancock, etc. with lost episodes, colourisations and documentaries, might not net the rights holders maximum cash, but it keeps the works in the public eye. People are watching and talking about those shows, whereas Python has all but vanished.

The only time anyone ever speaks about Cleese's work is when he's moaning on that the BBC wont show them, even though he (or the people who do these things for him) has put deals in place that mean they literally can't.

Ant Farm Keyboard

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on February 11, 2024, 07:51:41 PMI love Gilliam's films and his animations and demented performances in Python but there are too many reports of him acting the cunt on film sets, particularly to women. Now, is it worth it to have a film like Brazil? Who can say. Not me. I'm just a humble poster online.

"My hard won advice: never get into an elevator alone with Terry gilliam" (Ellen Barkin, 2018)

Keebleman

Quote from: DrGreggles on February 11, 2024, 05:45:31 PMTwist and Shout wouldn't come under the same agreement anyway.

Yeah, The Beatles didn't write that one.

Kankurette

Quote from: bgmnts on February 11, 2024, 01:30:09 AMI admire Gilliam's continued anger and contrarianism even at that ripe old age. Idle does seem like someone who does like the money but that Hollywood lifestyle must be very expensive.

Thank fuck Jones and Palin had other hobbies and interests and just used that vast Python capital to do loads of really cool interesting things. There are loads of Jones and Palin shows, films and books outside of Python I can say I love, but I can't think of anything for Eric Idle or John Cleese.
Always loved Jones' kids' books. I've got a book of poetry by him - The Curse of the Vampire's Socks, I think? I liked his short stories and Erik the Viking as well.

DrJ

Gosh I hate to summon up the word "boomer" but there's a lot of entitlement in Eric's posts yesterday. 25 years ago it would have been an excellent position to have been in: owning most of your content and IP. Very prudent. But as we all know the reality is that the bottom has fallen out of physical media sales - in music we are at 4% of the physical sales of 2000. DVDs have crashed, walk into CEX and pick up a Python movies box for a fiver. Giant paydays for a day doing an advert or a V.O. are long gone.

Owning content/rights used to be a great way of earning passive income, but anyone thinking of earning passive income off rights is actively cultivating new audiences.  Abba, Elton, Queen, all of them investing in holograms and movies to stir up their popularity. Spamalot was a good business move - Python should have been managed from that point to transcend its creators.  However I can imagine that dealing with the key members is a nightmare, no one wants to cede control, and so nothing happens.  There was money to be made after the O2 but Palin didn't need all that. Good for him - lives within his means, never got divorced, and actually found a profitable career that wasn't Python-dependent. [I still find it hard to believe that they didn't know Jones was sick in 2014. I went to one of the shows and it seemed obvious to me.]  It does seem strange that as Spamalot's  primary writer, Idle still has to work, when the musical is still playing around the world. 

It's different for comedy, comedy dates faster than music, and even if Friends has made it to 25 years, most things have not, and I doubt it'll be as big in another 25 years.  Friends has generated ancillary profits through licensing and merch. Python has always seemed to me to be very as hoc about licensing its IP.  Of course it's a roll of the dice as to what pop culture to bet on for the future: stocks in Justin Timberlake are very low while Talking Heads have never been more profitable.

Final thought: I wonder should Python sell everything? Queen are likely to announce. £1B+ sale of their rights & catalogue very soon.  Apparently the metric is 25x the annual earnings.  I don't think MP could generate a billion, but $50-75million?

Video Game Fan 2000

this all honestly reminds me of the Syd Little thing "those repeats were [my] pension pot" in terms of being out of touch

who on earth would think Monty Python would be a big money spinning machine on the 2020s? Idle seems to think "the Beatles of comedy" was more literal than anyone ever intended it to be. does he think zoomers are going around saying "shrubbery" and singing Always Look On the Bright Side of Life. might as well complain that Man about the House is never repeated on Tiktok

just be happy to have made something weird and good that acquires a few new hardcore fans every year

Mr Trumpet

Quote from: Kankurette on February 11, 2024, 09:07:44 PMAlways loved Jones' kids' books. I've got a book of poetry by him - The Curse of the Vampire's Socks, I think? I liked his short stories and Erik the Viking as well.

Erik the Viking and Nicobobinus had a bigger impact on me growing up than any of the Python stuff.

Pranet

Apparently Palin did insanely well from the books and the VHS releases of things like 80 Days and Pole to Pole. When I was a kid it seemed that I'd go into the living room of my friend's houses and they'd all have either the book or the VHS box set of 80 days (most of my friends were middle class).

And his diaries did well, plus he co-wrote Time Bandits.

Admit I find the financial stuff fascinating.

I have a memory of reading in the early nineties that Idle said he got about £20000 a year from Python. Now this might well be a false memory so this is entirely worthless but that is about £47000 now. Suppose that figure would go up and down a lot depending on what was happening.

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