The Abyss: Fancy new version BANNED in the UK

[Rev+]

Ultra high wankervision versions of three James Cameron films are being released, but 'The Abyss' will not be surfacing on these shores (assuming you're a UK reader).

This is due to the scene involving a rat.  The BBFC are all like 'just drop that scene you prick, it's obvious animal cruelty', and Cameron is all like 'nah mate, my vision and that'.

Thing is, the reporting about this makes it sound like the scene has always been cut in the UK.  When I saw it on release, there was definitely a scene in which they 'trained' a rat with the pink water.  Differently edited, quite possibly, but very distressing.  I've only ever seen the film the once, so has that whole bit been removed from subsequent versions?

The only other vivid memory of the film I have is it confirming the limits of a new rating:  yes, you can say 'fuck' in a 12 rated film, but probably just the once.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I think I might've seen that scene in a tv cut before, not 100% sure though, I've definitely scene it but can't 100% remember the source.

[JesusAndYourBush]

I saw the film earlier this year and noticed the scene was mostly cut. You see the rat momentarily but most of the rest of that bit was cut.

I've seen it a couple of times before and the scene wasn't cut.

[Blumf]

Deffo remember the rat being dropped in the pink stuff and thrashing about a bit. Haven't bothered with the film since it came out on VHS though.

Will they be demanding the cow sacrifice be cut from Apocalypse Now?

[JesusAndYourBush]

Ok after seeing the full scene on youtube I think the version I originally saw was shortened. You saw it in the water but for not as long.

[Jim_MacLaine]

Apparently the filming of the movie was a complete shitshow but I enjoyed the final result.

The filming stress also proved too much for Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio, who had a breakdown on set. Ed Harris also admitted to bursting into tears on a drive home. He said: "We were guinea pigs, in a way; Jim wasn't quite sure how this was all gonna go down."

He added: "[I was] screaming at [Mastratonio] to come back and wake up, and I was slapping her across the face, and I see that they've run out of film in the camera — there's a light on the camera — and nobody had said anything. And Mary Elizabeth stood up and said, 'We are not animals!' and walked off the set. They were going to let me just keep slapping her around!"

[mjwilson]

Deffo remember the rat being dropped in the pink stuff and thrashing about a bit. Haven't bothered with the film since it came out on VHS though.

Will they be demanding the cow sacrifice be cut from Apocalypse Now?

This gets away with it because it (supposedly) wasn't staged for the film, they just happened to be killing a cow that day and they turned up and filmed it.

[Theoretical Dentist]

This gets away with it because it (supposedly) wasn't staged for the film, they just happened to be killing a cow that day and they turned up and filmed it.

Although it wasn't staged for the film, according to Coppola, the buffalo was part of the payment to locals for filming on their land, so presumably wouldn't have been killed if they hadn't been filming there:

Part of the production deal struck with locals to film on their land included trading animals, including chickens and pigs, for slaughter, Coppola said. Two water buffalo were also promised.

"That was a big part of their compensation," he said.

After his wife, Eleanor, a documentary filmmaker, captured the locals' first water buffalo sacrifice, he decided to film the second, equally bloody and brutal slaughter for the final scenes of "Apocalypse Now."

"I did not direct it or anything, that was the way they do it," said Coppola, noting that he refused an offer to keep an extra water buffalo on standby if the first shoot didn't go to plan. "I'm not going to kill an animal for a movie; I'm not going to kill anything for any reason."

[The Bumlord]

Seems it was cut in the UK but has slipped into a few streaming versions.

Distressed rat analysis:

https://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=465781

[greenman]

Deffo remember the rat being dropped in the pink stuff and thrashing about a bit. Haven't bothered with the film since it came out on VHS though.

Will they be demanding the cow sacrifice be cut from Apocalypse Now?

Its still in the versions released on UHD recently.

Didnt Coppola claim that the cow sacrifice was a local event he filmed rather than something done expressly for the film, perhaps that changes things?

[idunnosomename]

thought this going to be because of nunchucks

[madhair60]

who cares its a rat. fuck it up

[Terry Torpid]

Some of my favourite films include animal cruelty, like the aforementioned Apocalypse Now. I love Herzog's Nosferatu, but they couldn't find black rats, so they just got white rats and dipped them in die. A lot of them didn't make it. There's a bit in Come and See where a cow gets shot, so they simply, well, shot a cow. I think the rationale was that it was going to be killed anyway, like all cows in the end.

It's upsetting, but no more than seeing leather shoes, or shelves and shelves of corpses in the supermarket. The really annoying part is people hypocritically criticising a film for killing an animal, while paying for many more to be killed every day.

The real crime is the terrible mess Cameron makes of his 4K remasters.

[Goldentony]

have they thought about banning the other nine hours of this aswell

[thenoise]

In 2011 notorious animal-cruelty video nasty Cannibal Holocaust was released in the UK with only 15 seconds of cuts, with nearly all of the animal death and (post-mortem) mutilation intact. Following a review of the law they basically decided that it was suffering not death that was illegal - citing Apocalypse Now as an example, it us a good clean kill so it remains, whether it was 'staged' or not.

From what I have read about the Abyss (and Titanic for that matter), Cameron's a bit of a cunt. Glad he is just making computer animated cartoons now, hopefully he won't get carried away and kill anyone.

[dontpaintyourteeth]

no smurfs were harmed in the making of this movie

[Mister Six]

These 4K releases are done with AI and look like shit, so no great loss.

Like James Cameron couldn't find a 35mm print and scrape up the cash to get a decent transfer done. Fucking hell.

[Sebastian Cobb]

My stance on this is 'probably shouldn't have done it in the first place tbh' and don't really feel too strongly as to whether the scene is cut or not because it's not integral, but appreciate it might be distressing for others. My main takeaway is we have a legal framework that has ensured in a stalemate we've got the worst possible outcome.

And yes, it seems a bit inconsistent with what the BBFC let slide.

This isn't a big problem in this case, but sometimes with cuts and edits I feel concerned about whitewashing past badness. There's an argument 'you can still find old versions' which seems a bit shortsighted, as people throw out their optical media and increasingly rely on digital libraries they have no ownership over. I don't even think the cuts are bad over rubbing unnecessary bad stuff in people's faces that might offend, but maybe it should be that the uncut versions are archived somewhere (even for a nominal fee) for preservation of what was considered ok in the past? I'm thinking more about someone writing a paper on how casual racism was prevalent in media rather than satiating boomers who are upset they can't hear all of Major's epithets now. I don't think it being morphed and disappeared by big corps is the way to go.

[madhair60]

james cameron elbow drops a rat, ooh can't have that. Super Mario jumps on a tortoise "oh that's fine". just nuke the planet.

[Mister Six]

What if we have a bloke dressed as a rat drown James Cameron for a bit, and then run it over the credits?

[Theoretical Dentist]

One thing I thought the BBFC might be thinking about with the Abyss scene is the risk of imitation by viewers – that's generally a consideration with dangerous behaviour. The rat scene would be quite easy to imitate since a lot of people (including children) have access to rats or other small animals, it doesn't really need specialist equipment, and you could do it discreetly on your own, in a child's bedroom for instance. The Apocalypse Now scene is probably less likely to be imitated since it's more obvious and more organisational hassle to get a bunch of people together to hack a cow to death with machetes.

But looking at the BBFC guidelines I suspect the actual reason is the Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act 1937, which makes it 'illegal to show any scene "organised or directed" for the purposes of the film that involves actual cruelty to animals'. It only makes it illegal to show such scenes in cinemas, but the BBFC applies the same standard to home video releases. If the BBFC is totally refusing to allow The Abyss to be released with the scene, rather than demanding a higher rating, that's probably the reason. It has to be actual cruelty so if the drowning was simulated it could be allowed even if the end result looks identical.

Apocalypse Now would escape if they accept the explanation that the buffalo scene wasn't 'organised or directed' for the film, but I suspect it might also not be considered cruelty. The act is very short and its only description of what's prohibited is 'the cruel infliction of pain or terror on any animal or the cruel goading of any animal to fury'. I guess there's other legislation and/or case law defining what's cruel, but I suspect that anything close to the way animals are routinely slaughtered wouldn't be considered cruel. At least the law surely wouldn't consider it cruel to slaughter an animal in a way that would be legal in the UK (even though a lot of people would say it's cruel), and maybe that protection would extend to common cultural practices in other countries.

[Sebastian Cobb]

The rat isn't actually drowning though as it is actually breathing in the liquid. I mean, it's still going to be very distressing and cruel.

[Theoretical Dentist]

I assumed the breathable liquid was fictional and they filmed it with water (just not submerging the rat long enough to be fatal), but I see from Wikipedia that it's a real thing and the scene was filmed for real. So it's interesting if the BBFC did consider it illegally cruel, since it must be quite close to real experiments performed to test breathing fluids.

It might make it worse (in the BBFC's eyes) in terms of imitation, since anyone imitating the scene would probably be using water (and maybe think that was what was used in the production) and the consequences would be more severe than what's shown in the film.

[Theoretical Dentist]

I found the minutes of a BBFC meeting from 2017 (PDF) which confirm that the scene was cut because of cruelty, on the advice of the RSPCA:

THE ABYSS

5. In 1989, following advice from the RSPCA, the BBFC cut a sequence from THE ABYSS in which a rat is submerged in liquid and forced to take that liquid into its lungs. The film is currently available in an uncut and unrated version on Netflix. Mr Mashiah showed the scene from The ABYSS for the consideration of the Board.

6. The issue for consideration was whether in the Board's view, the sequence contravened The Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act 1937. Specifically whether it was "organised or directed" for the purpose of the film in a way that involved cruelty to the rats (five of which were used in the sequence). The RSPCA's advice was that it did contravene the act.

7. The Board considered the legal test and concluded that it could not waive the entirety of the 1989 cut, but that the extent of the cuts could be reduced.

Action: Compliance Managers to create a new draft cut for consideration

[dead-ced-dead]

From what I gather, filming on The Abyss was quite a torturous experience for most of the cast and James Cameron can be quite cruel and uncaring about suffering provided he gets the shot.

I may be misremembering, but I think Ed Harris nearly drowned and when the shot was done and he was back breathing air, Harris punched Cameron.

[Johnny Textface]

Has he removed the film grain? If so, yes it should be banned.

[dissolute ocelot]

From what I gather, filming on The Abyss was quite a torturous experience for most of the cast and James Cameron can be quite cruel and uncaring about suffering provided he gets the shot.

I may be misremembering, but I think Ed Harris nearly drowned and when the shot was done and he was back breathing air, Harris punched Cameron.

I'm never sure what the factual basis is for IMDb, but it sounds pretty bad:

During underwater filming, Ed Harris almost drowned a few times. One time was while filming the scene where he had to swim without a suit at the bottom of the submerged set, and the safety diver took very long to hand him a breathing regulator. However, the closest call came during the descent into the Abyss. Harris was wearing a helmet filled with liquid, and had to hold his breath while he was towed along a set. When he ran out of air, he gave the signal for oxygen, but his safety diver got hung up on a cable and could not get to him. Another crew member gave Harris a regulator, but it was upside down and caused him to suck in water. Underwater cinematographer Al Giddings saw what happened, ripped the upside down regulator, and gave him his own in the correct orientation. Later that evening, Ed broke down and cried.

During the rigorous and problematic shoot, the cast and crew began calling the film by various derogatory names such as "Son Of Abyss", "The Abuse" and "Life's Abyss And Then You Dive". Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio reportedly suffered a physical and emotional breakdown because she was pushed so hard on the set, and Ed Harris had to pull over his car at one time while driving home, because he burst into spontaneous crying.

Very few scenes involved stunt people. When Bud drags Lindsey back to the rig, that's really Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio holding her breath. When the rig is being flooded and characters are running from water, drowning behind closed doors, and dodging exploding parts of the rig, those are all actors, not stunt people.

James Cameron has joined in the fun by claiming he also nearly died: they were filming 10 metres underwater and the cast were assigned safety divers to keep an eye on them, but Cameron didn't have a safety diver for some reason (I'm guessing he refused one because he's such a great diver), and nearly ran out of oxygen.

We were working 30 feet down. For me to be able to move the camera around on the bottom I wore heavy weights around my feet, no fins, a heavy weight belt around my waist.

When the tank gets low, you get a warning that you're about to run out of air. Well, this thing had a piston servo regulator in it, so it was one breath... and then nothing. Everybody's setting lights and nobody's watching me. I'm trying to get [underwater director of photography] Al Giddings attention on the p.a. but Al had been involved in a diving accident and he blew out both eardrums so he was deaf as a post, and I'm wasting my last breath of air on an underwater p.a. system going 'Al... Al...' and he's working away with his back to me.

The safety diver gets to be about 10 feet from the surface and he sticks a regulator in my mouth that he didn't check. It had been banging around the bottom of the tank for three weeks and had a rip through the diaphragm — so I purged carefully and took a deep breath... of water. And then I purged it again, and I took another deep breath... of water.

At that point it was almost check-out point and the safety divers are taught to hold you down so you don't embolize and let your lungs overexpand going up. But I knew what I was doing. And he wouldn't let me go, and I had no way to tell him the regulator wasn't working. So I punched him in the face and swam to the surface and therefore survived.

[buzby]

It should be noted that altough the rats (there were 5 used for the scene) were immersed in oxygenated PFC fluid, they was still effectively 'drowning'. The medical use of oxygenated PFC fluid requires it to be forced into the lungs (either by gravity or pumped at a carefully-regulated pressure and flow), and also to be 'sucked' from the lungs as the muscles that operate the diaphragm cannot sustain the effort to 'exhale' the more dense liquid.

Also, once cycled through the lungs, the oxygen in the PFC liquid is replaced by CO₂, so unless the fluid is constantly recycled, the CO₂ scrubbed from it and reoxygenated, the subject will eventually asphyxiate (if it doesn't drown from exhaustion of trying to exhale the liquid first). The lungs also do not have the capacity to dissolve the all the CO₂ in the blood back into the PFC liquid, so on every 'exhalation' of the liquid the subject will be gradually suffocating (in medical uses, the patient's blood supply is run through a separate CO₂ scrubber to mitigate this issue).

All these factors have relegated liquid breathing techniques to niche medical uses that require very complex equipment to perform and constant monitoring and supervision (which is why it has never been developed for diving applications). None of this was present on the set of The Abyss, and the stress on the animals (they would defecate themselves in panic shortly after immersion) is why 5 rats were requried to shoot the scene. One rat suffered a cardiac arrest during it's shot, and was allegedly CPR'ed back to life by Cameron.

Two crabs were also killed in takes of the shot of the dead submarine crewman (played by Cameron's brother). He was required to hold his breath 25 feet underwater and have a crab crawl out of his mouth. On two of the takes, Cameron took too long before calling action, forcing his brother to crush the crab before getting air from a safety diver.

The American Humane Society rated the film as 'Unacceptable', but they only found out about the rat scene after the film was released as the producers (i.e. Cameron and Hurd) lied to them about using animals.

Before The Abyss began filming, American Humane sent two letters to the producers asking if they would be using animals. When there was no response to either letter, we phoned the producer's office and were told there were no animals in the film. Therefore, AHA was not aware of the scene involving the rat and was not on the set.

[Dr Rock]

I'm all for drowning rats, but I don't want to see it thanks.

[Mr Trumpet]

In Oldboy your man eats a live octopus. How is that alright but waterboarding a rodent isn't?