Schradenfreude is..

[Hornet]

seeing Germany fail to qualify for the knock-out round of Euro 2004

[skibz]

No 5-1s this time eh?

[Neil]

Hooray!!  Another thread about football!!  WOOHOO!!!  YAYAY!!!11

[Jet Set Willy]

Hooray!!  Another thread about football!!  WOOHOO!!!  YAYAY!!!11

There have been as many threads about the football as there have been about Tony Blackburn's dismissal from 'Classic Gold'.

[Neil]

Hooray!!  Another thread about football!!  WOOHOO!!!  YAYAY!!!11

There have been as many threads about the football as there have been about Tony Blackburn's dismissal from 'Classic Gold'.

Two?  

There have been more threads about the football, than there have been about Big Brother, which lasts about 10 weeks...  

Can people not at least give suitable thread titles so that we don't have to click into an interesting-sounding thread only to find it's about foot-bloody-ball?

[Partridge's Love Child]

There's a whole new forum dedicated to Wimblemong.  Not everyone is interested in that.  Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't necessarily mean that others won't want to discuss a subject and see fit to start a new thread to discuss a different facet of it.  (Although, this thread is not a particularly good example on which to argue the toss, as I personally can't see why it couldn't have been posted in the other thread, and now I run the risk of looking like I'm having a go at Neil for the sake of it.)

Anyway, in an attempt to turn the this into something other than just another football discussion, I was interested by the brief discussion about Germany's failure on Fantasy Football last night.  Either Baddiel or Skinner asked Dermot O'Leary, who supports Ireland, if his reaction to Germany's failure was the same gleeful enjoyment that England fans were experiencing.  His response was that it was, and that their footballing past had been such that it's always nice to see the perennial stubborn success story finally have it up 'em.

However, I'm not satisfied that O'Leary is sufficiently removed from English feeling and English culture to give an objective viewpoint on this.  Despite his national footballing persuasion and his bogtrotter moniker, he's an Essex geezer and an Arsenal fan.  I've not looked into his life story, but I would suggest that the majority of his life has been spent in England.  Does he really hold a true Irish viewpoint?

And so, and this is the crux of this post at last, is our enjoyment of Germany's footballing failure based soley upon footballing past (World Cup 1970: West Germany 3 England 2, World Cup 1990: West Germany 1 England 1 [4-3 on penalties], Euro '96 Germany 1 England 1 [5-4 on penalties], World Cup Qualifier 2000 [last ever game at the old Wembley stadium] Germany 1 England 0), or is there a deeper dislike of all things Jerry which is entrenched within our national consciousness?

Naturally the obvious answer to this is that we fought them in two World Wars, but is that sufficient reason anymore to dislike the nation?  I dare say there's not a single person on this forum who was alive during World War II, or indeed World War I.  I was born 31 years after Hitler did his Kurt Cobain impression, and have never known anything other than peace between major nations in western Europe.  It is 15 years since David Hasselhoff helped bring down the Berlin Wall, and Germany was reunified not long after.  It is nearly 30 years since John Clesse goose-stepped around a fictional hotel in mockery of Germanophobia, but yet we still dislike them as a nation, nationally.

So, what makes Germany such a target of dislike for the English - and is it English and not British?  Is it sporting disappointment, or is the image of an Austrian with stupid facial hair still to iconic for us to bury the hatchet?  Or, inded,  is it something else?  Perhaps image and iconography has something to do with it, and perhaps latter 20th Century history has something to do with it.  We spent years at war with the likes of Spain and France, but we don't see them as "the enemy" as much as Germany - perhaps partly because those battles were recorded in ink and paint and not on celluloid, and partly because we've not had an enemy that actually threatened our borders since 1945.

[skibz]

I'd be inclined to state that, If we hadn't faced (and beaten) Germany in 1966, our attitude towards them would probably be slightly different. Think about it, what other years can you think of that England have won the World Cup? The fact that this was against the Germans means that, whether we win or not, if we do manage to do better than Germany it somehow seems to relate to that World Cup Final. I always enjoy a good match against Germany, probably because alongside France they are (in my opinion) part of the cream of Europe, and as such doing better than them does give England supporters a feeling that 'if we can beat them, why not the rest?'.

If you will, seeing England go further than Germany is practically seen as the litmus test to whether we can win the cup.

[Hornet]

I am glad that my thread has encouraged such an erudite reply PLC!

I could have posted on the Euro 2004 thread, but it was far too good an opportunity to use the word "schadenfreude" in a prominent place - I could not resist the temptation.

My reply was based purely with sporting history in mind, and specifically 90 World Cup (when I thought we could have won the trophy that year) and again in 96.  It seemed that once again, no amount of british (or english) pluck could overcome the ruthless efficiency of our teutonic neighbours.  But even that cannot escape the context of 39-45 where it could be argued that british pluck did (along with many others) win the day.

Personally, I love Germany, I used to live there, my daughter has just recently completed a year at a German uni as part of her studies and I am a huge fan of their beer and wurst!

Historically though, Germany did dominate the first half of the 20th century which had a direct conseqence on what happened during the latter half.  For some people, it is still fresh as the D Day celebrations just a couple of weeks ago demonstrated.  And unfortunately, the ideas propogated by Hitler and his ilk still form the basis of the opionions and political beliefs of many.

Anyway, at the risk of being flippant "For you Fritz, ze Euro 2004 is over"

[butnut]

I'm not going to go into the football side of things, as I know fuck all about that, but I'm a huge supporter of Germany as a country. I've been there a few times and really enjoyed myself.  Their attitude to art and culture is far better than the majority of people's over here, and they spend a huge amount of their money on such things compared to us. Every town has at least one opera house! Imagine that here. "Hmm, I'll go to the Reading opera house tonight to see Tristan and then maybe I'll go along to the Bracknell one tomorrow to see their new production of Zimmerman's Die Soldaten - but it might be sold-out-en!" (sorry)

Some of the best books I've ever read are German (and Gunter Grass is one of my favourite authors) and, get this, some of the funniest books are German too (again Gunter Grass).

[Mediocre Rich]

we've not had an enemy that actually threatened our borders since 1945.

For gods sake don't let Kilroy hear you say that.

I for one am not arsed either way about Germany going out or staying in.  I see European rivalry as being similar to a sibling one.  We all argue and have a pretence of rivalry and competition but underneath we basically all share similar goals and ideals.

I think it's more of a laugh to see the "Bloody Germans" going out, as it would have been to beat the "Bloody" French than a real hatred (although the cunts in our local that were asking people menacingly on the door to the toilets if they were French after Zidanes puke/penalty and then went out and hit a Thai student may disagree).

Saying that when I did go to Germany a few years ago for the first time I had a deep sense of foreboding when leaving Frankfurt airport seeing large black yellow and red Bundesflagge fluttering.  Very oddly intimidating.  Then getting into the back of a tanned leather Mercedes taxi it felt that at any moment the driver would turn round with a monocle and a scar and stick in a Luger in my face.  I put that down to too many war films though.

A few years ago when we played Argentina we were in a pub and this guy (presumably a veteran) started getting very hot under the collar screaming "You weren't even there, you don't fucking know!" at the TV.  Very odd, and embarrassing for his friends who were trying to keep a lid on it.  I remember thinking at the time how irrational it was to equate the footballers playing a game to the people who he had presumably fought against (I don't mean this as any disrespect to the guy, god knows what he had been through, and I think your allowed a bit irrationality if you've seen your mates guts flying around).

So to sum up, I'm not really sure the point I'm trying to make.  Basically our "hatred" of the Krauts is not any more real than our celebration of the Golden Jubilee.  More a national past time than a real fundamental dislike.

[Garfield And Friends]

"Schradenfreude" .... is that some kind of pun on a player's name or something?

[Evil Knevil]

Is is just me, or is Shweinsteiger the most hilarous footballing name evaarrr?

Oh and Ballack.

shweinsteiger means in German "one who mounts pigs". No joke.
Ballack literally means bollock/testicle.

[hoverdonkey]

No, that'll be Stefan Kuntz - from the early-mid 90's. Commentators didn't play the game and pronounced him 'Koontz'