Daniel Tosh Heckling 'Shitstorm'

[Mark Steels Stockbroker]

It is possible that other people appreciate Sadowitz in a different way to the interpretation I offered. It may even be that the case that this is the prevailing consensus in CaB. All I can say is that I'm not in it, I'm a splinter group, happy to welcome new members.

As for who the audience might be: nobody gets to choose their own fans. See the Cobain/"Polly" business (quite relevant here).

[chand]

No, the cruciual dimension with Sadowitz is the magician act, and the idea that this is a trad performer gone truant and deranged. There is pain and sadness in the whole performance. Which is a completely different deal from some wankstain who looks like he was stood next to a student uni bar, reciting stuff designed to be unironically appreciated by other wankstains stood next to bars.

Sorry, you're right. Sadowitz's metaphorical wallet is overflowing with so many figurative free passes I forget which ones we've all agreed on.

[a big egg]

People can have whatever opinions they want, but the performer doesn't have to justify him/herself to the audience.

I agree that he's not obliged to justify himself, but the conclusion you quoted was: "and thus no one can hold anything against him?", which they obviously can, whether he justifies himself or not.

[SockPuppet]

I think we are getting into a rather pedantic discussion about how much 'people' can 'hold things' against a performer.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion.

Meanwhile, Richard Herring seems to be getting into a 'twitterspat' with that dreadful Penny Red even as we speak

http://twitter.com/Herring1967

Richard said 'Rohypnol' and therefore hates 50% of the planet (or something)

[Jackson K Pollock]

While I do agree that absolutely anything can potentially be the subject matter for comedy, I think that if "shock" comedians go around saying outrageous things purely to get a reaction, they shouldn't be surprised when they get one every now and again.

Freedom of speech works both ways, surely.

[Unoriginal]

Laurie Penny, Johann Hari, Owen Jones, George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee have done more damage to the cause of the 'left' in this country than many right-wingers. They may act as if they want to help change things for the better, but a group of middle-class Oxford graduates exuding arrogance in every article and TV appearance have no chance of converting people who disagree with their views. To be honest, I think they are happier to feel that they are smarter and more informed than others even though they are not really radical in their political views at all. Only the funny and friendly middle-class social democrats such as Josie Long manage to make you forget about the fact that discussing politics is merely a hobby rather than a necessity for these people.

...

Sorry for the rant that has nothing to do with the thread, but they are a horrid lot.

[Thursday]

There's a world of difference between what Sadowitz does, and pisspoor careerist shitbag imitators like Frankie Boyle, or redundant US careerist shock-comics who should just piss off back to law school as fast as possible. If you can't see that then you shouldn't have gouged your eyes out and cut your ears off before you saw Jerry performing.

But that isn't what you said. Where did I defend Boyle or Tosh in this thread? I specifically said attitude and approach is important, which you seem to be ignoring.

What you said, suggested people here used to think some topics should be off-limits. When what you meant was 'hacky shock-comedy is shit.' Which nobody on here is arguing with anyway.

[Dead kate moss]

I hate pretty much all heckling, I don't think it's supposed to be an interactive medium unless the comedian is encouraging feedback or banter from the crowd (as some do). If they are not of this type I don't really want the comedian to have to do this tired old heckler-humilaiation stuff, because it's very rarely funny and now comes with all these dangers of where you can and can't go. There are some comedy clubs where you will be asked to leave if you heckle, right? That suits me. Same goes for talking loud, I think it's the management's job to tell these people to shut up, not the person on stage trying to do his act.

I have no idea who Daniel Tosh is btw.

[Famous Mortimer]

I have no idea who Daniel Tosh is btw.

His standup is good and his TV show is occasionally excellent - imagine a smarter, less shouty Dane Cook and you're close to the mark.

[tookish]

But...I mean, rape isn't funny, is it?

I honestly struggle to see what could possibly be funny about it. What's funny about someone being forced into sex, possibly violently, being most probably injured, almost definitely traumatised and altered for life? I see these 'jokes' all the time and it makes me wonder who is writing them, and who is laughing at them. It really confuses me.

Either way, I think it's disgraceful to suggest that it would be funny to gang-rape someone who is obviously already incensed or upset by the subject. It's a seriously sensitive subject. Maybe it's one of those ones you can make light of safely in a certain group of friends, knowing they'll all probably be okay with it.

But whenever you make them to a packed comedy club there will be victims of rape and sexual abuse standing there not knowing whether they'll draw attention to themselves by not laughing. Just doesn't seem worth the risk to me. It's so easy to be funny without having to hurl abuse!

[futilitarian]

But...I mean, rape isn't funny, is it?

I honestly struggle to see what could possibly be funny about it. What's funny about someone being forced into sex, possibly violently, being most probably injured, almost definitely traumatised and altered for life? I see these 'jokes' all the time and it makes me wonder who is writing them, and who is laughing at them. It really confuses me.

one might wonder the same thing about America's Funniest Home Videos or the entire slapstick genre.

[futilitarian]

But whenever you make them to a packed comedy club there will be victims of rape and sexual abuse standing there...

jokes about people being fat or ugly or stupid are as common as fat and ugly and stupid people.

...not knowing whether they'll draw attention to themselves by not laughing.

how terribly self-centered.

[tookish]

one might wonder the same thing about America's Funniest Home Videos or the entire slapstick genre.

I've never seen America's Funniest Home Videos, but I gather it's much the same as You've Been Framed, in which case it's people sending in their own videos of times they fell over while trying to dance at a wedding or blow out the candles on a birthday cake. In which case there's no sexual violence (unless AFHV is drastically different to YBF) presumably a very limited possibility of trauma, and...yeah, not really much in the way of comparison.

how terribly self-centered.

As I said, joking about rape doesn't seem worth the risk to me anyway, but even if you considered it self-centred to respond on a deep emotional level to a deep emotional issue like sexual abuse, responding to the direct suggestion that it would be funny if you were gang-raped is quite understandable, I think.

I think that the seemingly aptly-named Tosh should feel embarrassed and guilty for making such a remark.

[Jerzy Bondov]

I've never seen America's Funniest Home Videos, but I gather it's much the same as You've Been Framed, in which case it's people sending in their own videos of times they fell over while trying to dance at a wedding or blow out the candles on a birthday cake. In which case there's no sexual violence (unless AFHV is drastically different to YBF)

Isn't this a joke about rape? I laughed at it anyway. What's funny about the idea of a person sending in a video of a sexual assault to You've Been Framed? Well it's the person sending the video, not the person who was sexually assaulted. They would also be sent to prison, so this laugh is totally guilt free! This demonstrates that there are funny jokes that can be made around the subject of rape.

I don't think the Tosh thing is one of them though.

[remedial_gash]

But...I mean, rape isn't funny, is it?

I honestly struggle to see what could possibly be funny about it. What's funny about someone being forced into sex, possibly violently, being most probably injured, almost definitely traumatised and altered for life? I see these 'jokes' all the time and it makes me wonder who is writing them, and who is laughing at them. It really confuses me.

Either way, I think it's disgraceful to suggest that it would be funny to gang-rape someone who is obviously already incensed or upset by the subject. It's a seriously sensitive subject. Maybe it's one of those ones you can make light of safely in a certain group of friends, knowing they'll all probably be okay with it.

But whenever you make them to a packed comedy club there will be victims of rape and sexual abuse standing there not knowing whether they'll draw attention to themselves by not laughing. Just doesn't seem worth the risk to me. It's so easy to be funny without having to hurl abuse!

Wearing a clown suit?

No. Victims of rape are kind of low - 22.6 per 100,000 according to thingypaedophiliki - perhaps if an order of magnitude above were raped, it would still be a small number.

The guy sounds like a total twat, but the heckle was shouted down fairly in my not remotely humble opinion.

Gash
x

[Petey Pate]

"I can prove that rape is funny. Picture someone mailing a rape video to You've Been Framed".

In fact that does remind me of the "God's Biggest Boners" sketch in Wonder Showzen, which I found hilarious in spite of the fact they were showing real footage of starvation and conflict.

[Kishi the Bad Lampshade]

Wearing a clown suit?

No. Victims of reported rape are kind of low - 22.6 per 100,000 according to thingypaedophiliki - perhaps if an order of magnitude above were raped, it would still be a small number.

Gash

Fixed that for you. Can you link the stat actually because it might be convicted rather than reported, in which case the stat drops even further from the truth. The figure usually bandied about is one in four women in the US and one in six here, though I can't verify this or even necessarily trust it (stats on this subject being notoriously difficult to estimate what with so many victims never coming forward or not having their case brought if they do) but I'd be inclined to think it's closer to that end of the scale than the other.

I wrote a big thing here but it got obliterated, so basically: I really want to see some comedy about rape/sexism that's actually fucking thoughtful, and interesting; if the standups who do rape material actually had some dedication to their comedy they might do so rather than resort to HUR HUR SANDWICHES, GONNA RAPE YOU HUR HUR. I don't think they really consider, if they're doing this material with irony, how unironically considered raoe actually is; even among well educated people it's still obfuscated by myths and studies show that even maybe a majority of people still subscribe to them. Using them in comedy without doing something interesting with it only contributes to this ill-educated state of affairs, not to mention the fact that the jokes are usually unimaginative and shit anyway. Also got to bear in mind that if you're touring, or doing material on TV, what is taken for irony in an LA club where you're the support act for Yo La Tengo is not necessarily going to be taken so in Squiddlydit, New Jersey. It's a state of affairs which makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable, doubly so since if you try and talk about it you're a humourless feminazi who needs a good lay, apparently. It makes me think of the scene in Louie where the gay comedian talks about the word 'faggot' and ends his bit by saying you can use the word by all means, but now you understand what it actually means to say it. I wonder if the male comedians who talk about rape know how 50% of the population has their mind on constant 'rape alert' any time they walk home by themselves after nine at night, or how they feel fear when a guy is behind them who may be following them or may just be walking the same way as you, or to have a male friend express dodgy views about women and feel ever so slightly unsafe in their company from then on. I so want to see some comedy about this, but it seems like we're just continuing to get the same old shit.

[chand]

No. Victims of rape are kind of low - 22.6 per 100,000 according to thingypaedophiliki - perhaps if an order of magnitude above were raped, it would still be a small number.

That's recorded rape though, and rape is a notoriously under-reported crime. None of the women I know who've been raped went to the police.

EDIT: or what Kishi said.

[tookish]

Wearing a clown suit?

No. Victims of rape are kind of low - 22.6 per 100,000 according to thingypaedophiliki - perhaps if an order of magnitude above were raped, it would still be a small number.

The guy sounds like a total twat, but the heckle was shouted down fairly in my not remotely humble opinion.

Gash
x

Even if the victims of rape are relatively few (although as others have pointed out, this is based on recorded crimes) I was referring, as stated, to both the victims of rape and sexual abuse.

Fairly shouted down? Sure, maybe heckling is generally bad form and people should be told not to be so rude. But the idea that it's ever fair to silence someone with the threat of sexual violence - even in the guise of 'humour' - is beyond me.

*EDIT* Well said, Kishi.

[Noodle Lizard]

But whenever you make them to a packed comedy club there will be victims of rape and sexual abuse standing there not knowing whether they'll draw attention to themselves by not laughing. Just doesn't seem worth the risk to me. It's so easy to be funny without having to hurl abuse!

Imagine the number of subjects that might offend any single individual and multiply that by the number of people in any given audience. Subtract all those topics from any given comic's set list and what do you get? Mime.

[Dead kate moss]

My dad was raped by a mime.

[QDRPHNC]

Anything can be comedy fodder, but saying, "wouldn't it be funny if she was gang raped right now?" about a person sitting in the audience is beyond the pale.

At what point does your humanity - or let's say your sense of decency - kick in?

[Thursday]

what is taken for irony in an LA club where you're the support act for Yo La Tengo is not necessarily going to be taken so in Squiddlydit, New Jersey.

But Yo La Tengo are from New Jersey, there's a fairly strong alternative comedy and music scene there as it's near New York. I think this is the most important part of your post to focus on.

[Dead kate moss]

Anything can be comedy fodder, but saying, "wouldn't it be funny if she was gang raped right now?" about a person sitting in the audience is beyond the pale.

Essentially I have to agree, context or not.

[tookish]

Agree with the above.

For me, rape is a no-go area for lots of reasons, and if my favourite comedians included rape jokes in their sets then I would have to stop going to their show. But even leaving the content of the set aside, even if we say that it is acceptable to joke generally about rape, why is it acceptable for the comedian to have targeted an individual with such an abusive comment?

[Noodle Lizard]

Anything can be comedy fodder, but saying, "wouldn't it be funny if she was gang raped right now?" about a person sitting in the audience is beyond the pale.

At what point does your humanity - or let's say your sense of decency - kick in?

Once again, we haven't seen the incident.  What we know is that he was talking about why bad things, even rape, can be funny.  She gets up and says "No, rape is never funny", and he comes back with "Wouldn't it be funny if she was raped right now?"  It's not great, but that little bit of ironic context does make more sense of it.

Nobody's mentioned this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNRNCk3YwqE

[Dead kate moss]

The only response to hecklers I find funny is something world-weary like Stewart Lee saying 'can you be quiet? You're ruining it.' (not actual quote) or a simple 'Just be quiet you idiot or I'll get you thrown out.' Making it a battle where the comedian feels they have to assert authority by any means necessary, in this age of rape being what they all seem to want to joke about these days (exaggeration), and we end up with this, or the Michael Richards incident, or Herring's current hot water (same joke as pickle), and is that good? I dunno, probably not. Or maybe it's great. But the heckling and the responses don't make me laugh and at the end of the day that's what's most important. Me.

[QDRPHNC]

Once again, we haven't seen the incident.  What we know is that he was talking about why bad things, even rape, can be funny.  She gets up and says "No, rape is never funny", and he comes back with "Wouldn't it be funny if she was raped right now?"  It's not great, but that little bit of ironic context does make more sense of it.

The context makes it worse, in my opinion. The fact that she had a strong reaction to the rape material makes it quite plausible that she or someone close to her has had experience of rape or sexual abuse.

To not only double down on the material at this point, but to direct it at her personally, is revolting.

It's not great, but that little bit of ironic context does make more sense of it.

Of course, why couldn't the woman who'd been singled out with the suggestion of gang rape appreciate the wonderfully ironic context?

[Kishi the Bad Lampshade]

But Yo La Tengo are from New Jersey, there's a fairly strong alternative comedy and music scene there as it's near New York. I think this is the most important part of your post to focus on.

I'm talking about the more backwards bits of New Jersey, of which there are many. I was going to say Mississippi or somewhere but I feel maybe the south gets too picked on, so I went for a less-enlightened bit of the northeast instead.

[Noodle Lizard]

The context makes it worse, in my opinion. The fact that she had a strong reaction to the rape material makes it quite plausible that she or someone close to her has had experience of rape or sexual abuse.

To not only double down on the material at this point, but to direct it at her personally, is revolting.

Was it also acceptable for the heckler to scream at Doug Stanhope on stage for joking about ecstasy when her brother had died due to it recently?  Again, any topic has the potential to offend anyone - it doesn't give that person a justification to try and ruin the show for others just because they don't like it.

Okay, what would you suggest he had done?  Broken character, broken the mood and said "Oh, I'm sorry.  Yeah, it's not really funny, but I'm gonna carry on with it, so you may want to leave".  More importantly, what did she think was going to happen by interrupting the show and shouting her opinion at him?