Arseholes and "Van Life"

[TrenterPercenter]

Some well-meaning but naive freedom rant

Of course no-one disagrees that people should work less and have more freedom but ideologies that extoll the virtues of freedom above all else and eschew practical ways to bring this about i.e. liberalism have both historically and contemporarily done nothing to reduce working hours.  The biggest argument for the rightwing is the argument of freedom because the free market and the upholding of individualism above everything else maps really nicely into capitalist competitive mindsets where people use their advantages to game the system to achieve their freedom. 

No one today believes "freedom is something you earn" even the despots just think it something they decide, people think that earning enough money will give them access to freedom at a future date.  Silly to mix those things up.  What's more it's their freedom to do it, just like it's their freedom to screw other people over in the process, freedom, freedom, freedom.

I've not said that working hard as a virtue is a good thing (I just missed that JF said it), as mentioned several times (each time ignored) it was the people in the fucking van that did this, so banging on about the individualist right to freedom with a scant nod to people that work in "virtuous" (ha) industries, yes we also need them also, is pretty much the definition of when Cameron said we are all Thatcherites now. Also what do you think people are doing in virtuous industries other than working hard to try a bring about a better world for others to exist in?! That is exactly the hard work I'm referring too.

The question has always been how do you balance personal freedom with collective societal duty - communes were not full of people doing nothing, they worked, for each other, unions don't exist on apathy, it is work that underwrites the collective freedom, not the other way round.  This again in the van couples example is a far cry from this as it is communally disembodied and provides little in the way of giving other people back their own slice of freedom, it is all about sustaining their lifestyle - now you could say good for them, good to look after yourself, focusing on the individuals wants above societal needs is to be promoted then sure but there was someone else that said this (pssst it wasn't Corbyn).  If you want to actually discuss how people in "virtuous" work can actually be supported then possibly consider why a couple of wedding photographers wanking on about the virtues of their hard work might be annoying to them.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Just searched for metro stories about travellers/ gyspies. Literally all of the ones I found were positive or condemning the prejudice travellers face. Also I've never met a traveller who wasn't "hwite" so what the *fuck* are you on about?

The Metro isn't the only publication in the whole entire world. "Van life" as a trendy lifestyle that's so freeing and cheap and easy is a story that's pushed by quite a few of them. And society views middle class white people very differently from Travellers. That's what "the *fuck*" I'm on about.

[Kankurette]

Already posted this in the Snooker thread but there are some wonderfully deso turns of phrase in this. Gwaaarn Ronnie O'Sullivan Sr:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/ronnie-osullivans-67-year-old-26233222.amp

If Ronnie is the Rocket, is his dad the Rocket Launcher?

Fnar fnar fnarrr

[Mobbd]

Working hard as a virtue in its own right is pre protestant work ethic propaganda. If you can achieve what you want with the minimal of effort then you're doing it right. Work hard < work smart < do feck all and still get what you want.

Strong agree. Sorry Trenter.

A reduction in workload and exploitation is a classic demand of the Left.

[TrenterPercenter]

Strong agree. Sorry Trenter.

A reduction in workload and exploitation is a classic demand of the Left.

I feel like you've not really read my post(s) as I don't disagree with this.  There appears to be a lot of projection going on into an argument that never existed despite me, what 2, 3, 4 times now? pointing it out.

I'll try again.

Whether hard work exists or not relatively, is different from whether individuals should work hard (as a virtue alone) and be subject to exploitation.  This seems incredibly obvious.  If, in reality and not a disingenuous extrapolation of what I said, you think a junior doctor working 60 hours a week works as hard as a wedding photographer working 12 then be my guest, but it sounds pretty idiotic to me and I doubt you could prove it convincingly.

My egregious comment on the van-life couple was that they professed they worked hard for their idyllic life, not anyone else, again something that keeps being ignored alongside the obvious reality that some people do of course work harder than others, not because they desire too but because they have to or their job requires them too, not because they see it as a virtue, or something to aspire to, or whatever, they just do.

I think if you can't appreciate that then your Leftometer is pretty fucked.

[Mobbd]

I feel like you've not really read my post(s) as I don't disagree with this.  There appears to be a lot of projection going on into an argument that never existed despite me, what 2, 3, 4 times now? pointing it out.

I'll try again.

Whether hard work exists or not relatively, is different from whether individuals should work hard (as a virtue alone) and be subject to exploitation.  This seems incredibly obvious.  If, in reality and not a disingenuous extrapolation of what I said, you think a junior doctor working 60 hours a week works as hard as a wedding photographer working 12 then be my guest, but it sounds pretty idiotic to me and I doubt you could prove it convincingly.

My egregious comment on the van-life couple was that they professed they worked hard for their idyllic life, not anyone else, again something that keeps being ignored alongside the obvious reality that some people do of course work harder than others, not because they desire too but because they have to or their job requires them too, not because they see it as a virtue, or something to aspire to, or whatever, they just do.

I think if you can't appreciate that then your Leftometer is pretty fucked.

Always someone else's fault, isn't it? We just never read your posts properly.

[TrenterPercenter]

Always someone else's fault, isn't it? We just never read your posts properly.

What a load of petty, diversionary bollocks.

Show me the fucking bit in my posts that explains this utterly pathetic response.

Here is just one of the times I clarified it for you but you ignored it ya twerp.

Now I'd put to you and Mobbd (bgmnts also) two lines of thought, do you think that a couple of weekend wedding photographers work harder than a junior doctor? a care worker? and if you like yes a miner? also do you think it matters regarding the outputs of your work, and if you are doing work for your own personal convenience and gain or whether there is any civic value to your labour?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

VAN LIFE EH

[Blue Jam]

If Ronnie is the Rocket, is his dad the Rocket Launcher?

Fnar fnar fnarrr

Probably sold a Rocket Launcher in one of his shops.

[Donnas Cakes]

Wasn't Sir James Savile a pioneer of this van-life thing? I don't see the attraction of it myself but he is proof that it can work for some.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Wasn't Sir James Savile a pioneer of this van-life thing? I don't see the attraction of it myself but he is proof that it can work for some.

And DJing

[TrenterPercenter]

He worked hard as a DJ to get that peado-wagon

[Martin Van Buren Stan]

The Metro isn't the only publication in the whole entire world. "Van life" as a trendy lifestyle that's so freeing and cheap and easy is a story that's pushed by quite a few of them. And society views middle class white people very differently from Travellers. That's what "the *fuck*" I'm on about.

Do you view middle class white people very differently from travellers? Because in your post earlier you were saying you wanted a couple of "middle class white people" dead.

[Kankurette]

He worked hard as a DJ to get that peado-wagon

He didn't choose the van life, the van life chose him.

[The Mollusk]

Do you fuck a house from the inside or outside? I can see equal merits to either really.

Hammering the arse off the tiled hearth of a decorative fireplace area.

Going at it like knives on a glass balustrade overlooking the garden.

Scissoring the everliving fuck out of a fully flush white corian worktop, great.

Emptying your bollock yoghurt all over a small heavily weathered outdoor tap, incredible.

TWO THUMBS UP to shitting on the largest of a nest of glass tables solely for the pleasure of one of the smaller glass tables immediately below it.

Fisting the hole of an old air brick ventilation fitting whilst screaming up into the midnight rain Shawshank Redemption style? Don't mind if I do!

Flicking the bean of a small motion sensor for the light on your medicine cabinet until you both reach a shuddering climax, yes!!

Squatting down on a small adjustable halogen garden light in your compost bedding and tossing yourself to oblivion all over the knackered old gas meter box! GET IN!!!

So in conclusion I think both are  probably good.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Do you view middle class white people very differently from travellers? Because in your post earlier you were saying you wanted a couple of "middle class white people" dead.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were an idiot.

[tourism]

anyone remember on the simpsons when the hardest working man in show business fucked a bandstand to bits? must be one of those 'yank' things

[Twit 2]

Do you fuck a house from the inside or outside? I can see equal merits to either really.

Hammering the arse off the tiled hearth of a decorative fireplace area.

Going at it like knives on a glass balustrade overlooking the garden.

Scissoring the everliving fuck out of a fully flush white corian worktop, great.

Emptying your bollock yoghurt all over a small heavily weathered outdoor tap, incredible.

TWO THUMBS UP to shitting on the largest of a nest of glass tables solely for the pleasure of one of the smaller glass tables immediately below it.

Fisting the hole of an old air brick ventilation fitting whilst screaming up into the midnight rain Shawshank Redemption style? Don't mind if I do!

Flicking the bean of a small motion sensor for the light on your medicine cabinet until you both reach a shuddering climax, yes!!

Squatting down on a small adjustable halogen garden light in your compost bedding and tossing yourself to oblivion all over the knackered old gas meter box! GET IN!!!

So in conclusion I think both are  probably good.

Don't overthink it, just fuck the house. Yes, a bit of imagination  wouldn't go amiss, but what's wrong with simply standing on the porch with your knob in the letter box? This is where our country has gone wrong. Youngsters don't understand a bit of foreplay, bit of stroking the door bell, they're straight into slapping the pebbledash and spitting in the guttering. I blame Llewelyn-Bowen, warping kids minds, that stuff's just fantasy.

[Flatulent Fox]

I once existed in a Mk 3 Transit for 11 days.It was how I'd imagine a Submarine must be.Was all fun and games until a bottle of vegetable oil was spilt on the floor.I would summarize the whole affair as Smelly.My brother visibly melted when opening a door to said vehicle on our return.

On the plus side it was nice to be able to scan up at all and any time of the day or night on the move.Mostly Fried egg rolls,Fried Bacon rolls,and to mix it up a bit,Fried Egg and Bacon rolls.

[Twit 2]

An apt username.

[willbo]

I bought a £7 big hardback book from the Works about Van Life years ago. It's got epic photography of (I think all British, but in different places around the UK and the rest of the world) van life people, with interviews with them beside the photos. I love the pictures, but they all sound like the blandest "wealthy boring person on never-ending gap year trip" types. I still love the idea of having a VW van to take out on trips on the weekends, but I don't think I'd wanna live in one. I like a kitchen, warmth in the winter, space to do yoga/fitness etc.

[mippy]

If, in reality and not a disingenuous extrapolation of what I said, you think a junior doctor working 60 hours a week works as hard as a wedding photographer working 12 then be my guest, but it sounds pretty idiotic to me and I doubt you could prove it convincingly.

Wedding photography isn't a life or death job, sure, but there's a 12hr day shift during the event itself, plus the prep work involved beforehand, plus the post-processing afterwards (which takes fucking ages) plus the cost of your equipment (£5k for a body, £2k for each of the lenses most commonly used, Photoshop sub, having to own and run your own car because a lot of venues are in the middle of nowhere) plus, being self-employed, having to deal with your taxes,do your own promotion, and if you're in the US, cover your own health insurance, and have fun trying to get a mortgage when self-employed.

[mippy]

I live in a small flat that costs 999999999£ in rent, I could live in a van as long as there was space to stand up.

[TrenterPercenter]

Wedding photography isn't a life or death job, sure, but there's a 12hr day shift during the event itself, plus the prep work involved beforehand, plus the post-processing afterwards (which takes fucking ages) plus the cost of your equipment (£5k for a body, £2k for each of the lenses most commonly used, Photoshop sub, having to own and run your own car because a lot of venues are in the middle of nowhere) plus, being self-employed, having to deal with your taxes,do your own promotion, and if you're in the US, cover your own health insurance, and have fun trying to get a mortgage when self-employed.

One of my good friends is a wedding photography.  I do know how it works.

On average I work about 50 hours a week (I finished work at 9:52pm last night) for the NHS desperately trying to help young people with mental health conditions, 14 of those hours are unpaid, during the two years of Covid I worked all of my holidays bar one week due to demands, I've had one week off since Sept 2021, over the 12 years I've worked in the NHS I've taken a 11% pay cut and had my pension fucked - I'm also reminded constantly in the press about how "lucky, lazy and well paid we are" (lol).

I know lots of self-employed people (my partner for example) who take the work because it suits them, they generally get paid much more than me for doing equivalent work, doing your taxes every year is not comparative.  This idea that self-employed workers are carrying the country is a Tory myth go and look at what people do in NHS and the third sector on a daily basis compared to what self-employed photographers do.

I'm not moaning, I love my work, despite it physically and mentally killing me and I agree work as a virtue is destructive but in my game its absorb the shit that gets thrown on us in the NHS or let people suffer, and eventually let tories rob us all of it.  Can we not just have a modicum of dignity here in that we work harder than a wedding photographer and that we might not be making that case just to be an arsehole.

EDIT: Oh sorry I made a mistake a 10% cut we got 1% back, and some claps.

[TrenterPercenter]

https://leftfootforward.org/2020/07/nhs-staff-working-11-unpaid-hours-a-week-before-pandemic/

PS - I'll add again I'm not having a go at this couple or wedding photographers I'm not accusing them of "slacking", or even belittling the work that they do, I'm saying they are tone deaf feeling the need to tell us they are working hard - fair play to them otherwise.

[Goldentony]

I'm not accusing them of slacking!

[TrenterPercenter]

get back to work worm!

[BigotsShouldWheest]

"VanLife" influencers were huge before Covid, and the reason the Metro is only covering them negatively now is the trend has started to die down, and so it's time to give them all a subtle kicking via encouraging a good old British Sneer at them.

The thing is though, like all Influencers, the lifestyle really isn't being reported on accurately. It's much, much harder than people assume. There's a great video of a young lady who does live in her own van, discussing the actual reality of it here;

I've not done the "VanLife" thing, but I did have to live in my car for a few weeks when I first left a violent home life, and the unexpected issues are indeed there still. In particular, unless you want to be constantly moved on, often by the police who've received a call from some curtain twitching blue rinser, you need to find somewhere safe which allows all night parking; in the UK, that'll usually mean service stations, which pushes your bills up elsewhere as you'll be far from cheap food and fuel. And you need fuel to recharge the battery which is running all your other essentials; this is slowly changing with the rise of electric vehicles, but even now you don't have as much battery as you might think, and you're recharging it by burning your own fuel.

Meanwhile think of how much rubbish you generate per day. All that has to go somewhere. Unless you're going to shamelessly fly tip, that starts taking up your precious cosy space. Water can be drained off, but urine and solid waste needs responsibly disposing off. Do you know somewhere within range of where you're currently parked? A lot of the information online is out of date or deliberately deceptive and there may be hidden charges when you arrive, and it's now too late to go elsewhere... the author of the above video points out the dangers inherent in being a single girl alone on darkened roads, but I have memories of being woken up in my car by pissed off people who resented you being near their house, and I was just on the streets for a short time.

Then, unless you've gone for a £50,000 pre-built and can maintain it, you've all the fun of maintaining the vehicle which probably wasn't built with the idea of someone living and breathing and condensing and pooping in it for 24 hours at a time; parked by a lovely beach, then find the seashells have shredded your road tyres? Better hope you have AAA cover too... Those road seats aren't really comfortable to sleep in, so you're folding out and putting away a special mattress etc every single day; spill the bucket of poo on it, and now that has to be disposed of and replaced...

I could go on. And on. Listen to the video above, it touches on so much you HAVE to know about doing this for sort of long term. The only people who can and at least claim to be glamorous are the kind of Guardian reading middle class lovies who consider Glamping with all the accessories and a well paid job they can take a lot of time off from, and will still be waiting when they come back to it.  That's not to say anyone doing it are like that; but the honest ones will tell you it's incredibly hard work and requires enormous sacrifices.

Me, I was glad to get back into rented property again...

[TrenterPercenter]

Great post.

Two things

The only people who can and at least claim to be glamorous are the kind of Guardian reading middle class lovies who consider Glamping with all the accessories and a well paid job they can take a lot of time off from, and will still be waiting when they come back to it.

I think this (obviously) is what posters were pointing out not trying to sneer at people having to live in vans.

That's not to say anyone doing it are like that; but the honest ones will tell you it's incredibly hard work and requires enormous sacrifices.

Right, so it's "hard work" living in a van so why do it? The couple in the OP say their life is idyllic but they work hard for it and had the money to buy a custom made vehicle.  You are describing something very different i.e. living in a van because you have to (shout out as when I found myself effectively homeless I didn't have a car to sleep in but absolutely sympathise with anyone without a home).  If it is so terrible and such hard work living in a van (I'm sure it is) then it is hardly an idyllic lifestyle (you've described some of the reasons that I was alluding to).

This is the whole point of what PBGC was saying about travellers vs people with expensive custom made vans - why not just buy an actual camper van or why do it at all if you don't have too? Saying I've escaped the rat race by not getting a job that allows me to rent a place or getting council flat by living in a van I which the reality is living in your own shit and really hard work to maintain....isn't escaping the rat race. 

It seems to me that their perception of an idyllic life is one they have crafted around their wedding photography - nowt wrong with that - but in my book that isn't as hard work as going "I can't really live off wedding photography, I might have to thinking about doing some more/different work in order to survive" it is a decision someone makes to "craft" the life they want.  That is very different from people forced to live in a van because they are homeless.  Those two things should never of been conflated in the first place.

[badaids]

I've driven my van inside my home so now I have the idyllic best of both worlds.