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March 28, 2024, 03:46:22 PM

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Ricky Gervais: SuperNature

Started by Blue Jam, July 29, 2018, 02:09:02 PM

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checkoutgirl

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 09:45:42 AMI dare say if it was a subject close to my heart then sure, I'd have felt it was terribly mocking and re-inforcing stereotypes.

I don't have any dog in the fight either and I'm uncomfortable with any subject being off the table per ce. But there are some issues that irk with Gervais.

1. His repeated visiting his same old cliches, AIDS, atheism etc, some well over a decade old.
2. No new twist on same.
3. A lack of cleverness or funniness.
4. A lack of balance, punches easy targets with nothing from the other perspective.
5. Did I mention I'm a millionaire? Yes Ricky, for the last decade.
6. Explaining what irony is and what way the audience should be understanding everything. Good comedians don't need to do this.
7. Audience people guffawing at just the mere mention of minorities.

I'm personally happy for a comedian to joke about a gay, religious, transexual, African Jew with AIDS with poo on their head in a toilet that is also poor and not a rich as Ricky Gervais. On paper that's fine. But come on man, you're going to have to work very hard to make the joke funny, which is not something Gervais is prepared to do. Well the product is inferior then. 

It's like he does just enough to extract the money and not a tap more and he can't believe this scam is still working on Netflix and audiences. He's almost directly mocking you for paying him money.

The Mollusk

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 29, 2022, 11:33:30 AMHe did a long joke about having sex with a "lady boy" too. About how it's convincing until they orgasm and sound like a man. Pretty bizarre really, and I'm pretty sure it was the finishing joke of one of his DVDs

It was, on the "Sean Lock Live" tour/DVD. I always remember to switch it off before that bit closes the show as it's an otherwise brilliant set, which I think is fairly indicative that he can be forgiven for it. I don't recall him ever making larger stand-up diatribes or panel show yarns or even sitcom scenes* about these subjects and so those couple of jokes can be written off as unfortunately of-their-time and should just be overlooked, if possible.



* There was the one scene on 15SH where a bloke greets his new neighbour who is very androgynous in appearance, and awkwardly asks them if they are a man or a woman because "if we ever get into a fight, I want to know whether I can punch you or not". Though I would say that this is much more a joke on the man asking the questions and making himself look needlessly foolish about such a trivial thing that only exists in his own insecure mind. The other person isn't the butt of the joke at all in that scene.

Stigdu

I just got back from church. After the priest asked for prayers for a) the people of Ukraine, b) the people of Sri Lanka, and c) people involved in the Uvalde school shootings, he gave a last option (as he always does) for a moment's silent prayer for anything we want, so I prayed for oppressed minorities, including transgender folk.

It certainly helps with my Catholic guilt.

I've not heard of any of these other comedians people are recommending (apart from Sean Lock), so I'll check them out.

On another note, is it just me, or are specifically-named targets of jokes harder to take than blanket gags about a group of people? To whit: show me a comedian telling a joke about black people, gay, short, fat etc and I'll more than likely laugh (although given what I've read over the past few pages, I'll certainly try to be more considerate about hateful jokes that incite or promote oppression), but when a comedian tells a joke about a specific person, then I do think that's too near the knuckle.

Frankie Boyle (who I love) and Harvey Price springs to mind, as does Anthony Jeselnik and Conor Clapton.

Ron Superior

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 29, 2022, 11:33:30 AMHe did a long joke about having sex with a "lady boy" too. About how it's convincing until they orgasm and sound like a man. Pretty bizarre really, and I'm pretty sure it was the finishing joke of one of his DVDs

Ooh yeah, I'd forgotten about that bit. Not great. But I would argue that if it came down to it and he had to justify it as being just a joke, it would be easier to accept that argument from Sean Lock as a great deal of the rest of his material wasn't also about the dangers of accepting them.

Or maybe I'm just justifying those jokes cos I like Sean Lock. But then I used to like Ricky Gervais, and only stopped because the quality went down as the amount of lazy material about the same groups went up.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 09:45:42 AMI think it's difficult to say why we find a joke funny, just like it's difficult to explain why we like the taste of something.

Maybe that's true. Also maybe it's more difficult if you haven't spent much time analysing these things with like minded people on a website?

If people who like Gervais's stuff have substantial explanations for why they do then that's worthwhile and interesting and gets a debate going.

There's less value in people getting aggressive or just saying I liked/hated it, dunno why, regardless of which side you're on.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: The Mollusk on May 29, 2022, 12:03:04 PM* There was the one scene on 15SH where a bloke greets his new neighbour who is very androgynous in appearance, and awkwardly asks them if they are a man or a woman because "if we ever get into a fight, I want to know whether I can punch you or not". Though I would say that this is much more a joke on the man asking the questions and making himself look needlessly foolish about such a trivial thing that only exists in his own insecure mind. The other person isn't the butt of the joke at all in that scene.

That sounds like it came from Mark LeMuur, a known thug and puncher of heads

The Mollusk

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 12:11:06 PMOn another note, is it just me, or are specifically-named targets of jokes harder to take than blanket gags about a group of people? To whit: show me a comedian telling a joke about black people, gay, short, fat etc and I'll more than likely laugh (although given what I've read over the past few pages, I'll certainly try to be more considerate about hateful jokes that incite or promote oppression), but when a comedian tells a joke about a specific person, then I do think that's too near the knuckle.

This is a result of not wanting to acknowledge accountability, since it's far more guilt-free on the conscience to make fun of a faceless group than it is to target one specific person whose thoughts and feelings you are far more likely to consider. It is nevertheless no more acceptable to do so, in my (and certainly a lot of other people's) opinion.

chip

So is the prevailing CaBthink here that a (presumably privileged on any which axis) comedian making a joke about trans people ideally has to make it so they are the butt of the joke, every time? Seems very limiting. I would personally like the trans person to be the butt of the joke about half the time; no-one is above being made fun of.

(Also, wasn't asked, but just so I'm coming across clearly: I think Ricky is a very poor comedian, and this new special was more tedious than anything else.)

BritishHobo

I think James Acaster's analogy sums it up well. If you're driving past a school and see a bully beating up a smaller child, it's not balance to stop the bully and then also call the victim a piece of shit.

phes

#669
Quote from: chip on May 29, 2022, 12:42:46 PMSo is the prevailing CaBthink here that a (presumably privileged on any which axis) comedian making a joke about trans people ideally has to make it so they are the butt of the joke, every time? Seems very limiting. I would personally like the trans person to be the butt of the joke about half the time; no-one is above being made fun of.

(Also, wasn't asked, but just so I'm coming across clearly: I think Ricky is a very poor comedian, and this new special was more tedious than anything else.)

As he's said himself, over and over again: don't mistake the subject of a joke for the target. He needs to take his own advice. There's plenty of things in Supernature that's lazy and hackneyed and maybe offensive but you could at least attempt to argue they're within a broader joke (punching disabled kids, using dwarves to ween paedophiles off kids etc). The trans stuff is just pointing and laughing, it's just Barrymore doing a Ching Chong Chinaman face to whoops of delight

The Mollusk

Quote from: chip on May 29, 2022, 12:42:46 PMSo is the prevailing CaBthink here that a (presumably privileged on any which axis) comedian making a joke about trans people ideally has to make it so they are the butt of the joke, every time? Seems very limiting. I would personally like the trans person to be the butt of the joke about half the time; no-one is above being made fun of.

There isn't a prevailing CaBthink.

My opinion however is that if you haven't experienced the vast swathes of deeply traumatic mental and physical abuses that come with being part of a marginalised or minority race or gender/sexuality group then you shouldn't be making fun of those people at all, because you don't have the right as a privileged and relatively worry free individual to poke fun at people who in the current climate are still being systematically trodden into the shit from many angles on a daily basis. It's not okay.

Stigdu

I remember making a joke about non-binary people at the end of last year. It was after I'd read an article online that said how annoyed a minority of non-binary people were that *their* represented day of the year was sandwiched between the women's and the men's days.

My joke:

International Women's Day was on 8th March this year, and International Men's Day was 19th November. I hear a small minority from the non-binary community are upset that International non-binary Day is right between them, on 14th July.

Imagine how pissed off they'd have been if it was on the 10th!



chip

Quote from: The Mollusk on May 29, 2022, 01:02:18 PMThere isn't a prevailing CaBthink.

My opinion however is that if you haven't experienced the vast swathes of deeply traumatic mental and physical abuses that come with being part of a marginalised or minority race or gender/sexuality group then you shouldn't be making fun of those people at all, because you don't have the right as a privileged and relatively worry free individual to poke fun at people who in the current climate are still being systematically trodden into the shit from many angles on a daily basis. It's not okay.

Okay. I definitely think people at Rick's level of influence should take more care; front-loading most of the trans material in the special did just seem like he was gleefully and wilfully stoking the Twitter Trending fires with what he maybe deemed was the most likely to be "cancellable" stuff. And bingo, he was right. And of course, NONE of it was funny - which as a stand-up special is its predominant failing.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I'm just one of those bores that doesn't think anyone should be 'off limits', regardless of personal traumatic experiences (which not even every trans or GNC person even goes through). And that talented stand-up comedians do have that right, even as privileged and relatively worry-free individuals themselves. (But then aren't all comedians depressed sad-clowns anyway?)

Quote from: mr. logic on May 29, 2022, 01:33:48 PMI don't get it.

Me neither.

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 01:12:09 PMImagine how pissed off they'd have been if it was on the 10th!


Ferris


QDRPHNC

#676
Quote from: chip on May 29, 2022, 01:35:32 PMAnd that talented stand-up comedians do have that right

What about Ricky Gervais though?

Joking aside, do only talented comedians have that right? The untalented (like Ricky) do not then? If he is rich enough and famous enough and on TV enough, does a stand-up move from untalented to talented? How does this work?

Or - more simply - any comedian has the same right as anyone else to say whatever they want, and then they have to deal with the consequences same way anyone else would. Has anyone here said that Ricky shouldn't be allowed to say the things he's saying?

Quote from: chip on May 29, 2022, 01:35:32 PMI'm afraid I'm just one of those bores

Yeah I'm sorry, but it does make you kind of a bore. I can find that opinion on any boomer facebook group. Like Stacy Tigdu up there, comedy exists in some magical vacuum where it's a binary, funny or unfunny and nothing else matters.

Blue Jam

@Stigdu — the 10th would piss off non-binary peeps because 10 is a binary number?

You've actually just given us a perfect example of making a joke while staying within the constraints of not punching down or mocking anyone or being cruel- you've seen this as a challenge, gone off on a maths tangent, and come up with something original! Which is better than anything Ricky Gervais could manage now!

Admittedly I didn't laugh but I did go "Ahhhh, that's pretty good."

Jumblegraws

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 01:12:09 PMI remember making a joke about non-binary people at the end of last year. It was after I'd read an article online that said how annoyed a minority of non-binary people were that *their* represented day of the year was sandwiched between the women's and the men's days.

My joke:

International Women's Day was on 8th March this year, and International Men's Day was 19th November. I hear a small minority from the non-binary community are upset that International non-binary Day is right between them, on 14th July.

Imagine how pissed off they'd have been if it was on the 10th!


I think I actually get this and I'm pretty sure it's only cos I'm not sober. Because 1 and 0 are the symbols in binary code?

ETA: Blue Jam beat me to it

Stigdu


Blue Jam

Here's a trans joke I like: The Globo-Chem ad pitch from Mr. Show (at 4:15):


Alright, people don't use the word "transexuals" much anymore but the idea of trans people being a lucrative target market because "they buy and spend for two"- as well as just being an absurd bit of logic, this isn't "Trans people- weird and gross, huh?" but "Trans people- hmmmm, how can we make money out of them?". Again, it's staying within the constraints of not being cruel or punching and doing something much more original- and funny.

Incidentally, a lot of "wokeism" is really just businesses realising they can make more money if they target a broader section of society- Mr. Show really was ahead of its time.

Another trans joke I like: from Alan Partridge: Stratagem (spoiler tagged for those who are yet to see it):

Spoiler alert
"I'd like to offer an extra warm welcome to any women or non-binary people. Not to white men though, because you come to my shows anyway."
[close]

Yes, it was self-deprecating and the joke was on Alan, but it was also a self-demonstrating joke:

Spoiler alert
The queue for the ladies' was refreshingly short, the queue for the gents' was (I'm told) horrendously long.
[close]

AIDS is a weird one, because AIDS was a big scary thing in the 1980's, which is why it was the subject of playground jokes of the time. Now, in the developed world at least, people don't really die of AIDS anymore, they get put on antiretrovirals and live a normal life. I know SuperNature was written two years ago so it would be unfair to expect Ricky to have thrown in some. monkeypox material, but on top of everything else, AIDS jokes are just so dated.

Here's an AIDS joke I like: Glaswegian stand-up Scott Agnew was diagnosed with HIV a few years ago and, after taking a break and considering quitting stand-up altogether, he decided to just be open about it and do material on it, to highlight the fact that for people on antiretrovirals the virus is at undetectably low levels and ubtransmissable, and to try and help wipe out the stigma. Anyway, I saw him do a joke about breaking the news of his diagnosis to an elderly relative:

"I told him 'It's alright, I just have to take one pill a day' and he went 'I'm on 20, son! One pill a day? There's fuck-all wrong wi' ya!'"

A more up-to-date joke and one that gives a bit of hope and positivity instead of making the world worse for a marginalised group.

Blue Jam

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 01:48:15 PMYes, you're both correct.

What, all 10 of us?

*b-dum-tish*

Has anyone done a "There are only 10 genders" joke yet?

"I believe there are 10 different genders, but that's only because I use the binary numeral system. And I'm a TERF."

Would be easy to do callbacks too: "I decided to go back to the decimal system after I ordered a quattro formaggio pizza and it was a bit too cheesy." (apologies to Harry Hill).

Christ I'm a nerd, sorry.

Stigdu

Quote from: Blue Jam on May 29, 2022, 02:07:58 PMWhat, all 10 of us?

*b-dum-tish*

I like it, sir.

My favourite AIDS joke (that sounds weird) is about the man who goes to a doctor and asks if he can catch AIDS from a parrot. The doctor looks at him incredulously and says "no, but you can from a cockatoo."

Blue Jam


Old Thrashbarg

Quote from: Stigdu on May 29, 2022, 02:10:58 PMI like it, sir.

My favourite AIDS joke (that sounds weird) is about the man who goes to a doctor and asks if he can catch AIDS from a parrot. The doctor looks at him incredulously and says "no, but you can from a cockatoo."

See I think that one's exactly the sort of joke Gervais would repeat because it's stigmatising homosexual sex. i.e. laughing at the gays for their disgusting lifestyle choices that cause HIV/AIDS to spread. So inaccurate, damaging and the wordplay isn't funny enough to make up for it.

Change the man to a woman and I don't think it changes how funny the joke is (if you rework the parrot bit), with the wordplay remaining the same, but it gets rid of the othering and the nasty stereotyping.

phes

You wouldn't hear Gervais say

Dr, can I get cervical cancer from a Parrott... No, but you can from a cockatoo

Because it doesn't explicitly involve gay people, or an illness he associates with them

Blue Jam

Yeah, that joke's in Peep Show, where Super Hans asks Mark's mother if she's ever owned a parrot. It's funny because it's cheeky and inappropriately flirty, and Mark's mother enjoys it (to the chagrin of Mark, who is an uptight miserable get, and his father, for the same reason plus she cheated on him).

It takes a little work to write jokes within constraints, but the extra effort shows.

superthunderstingcar

Netflix: "Please, there must be something, my subscribers would be so pleased, they're going to leave if I keep talking about the transphobia, but I know I'm right, and I am sure there's something you could do for twenty million dollars an hour."
Gervais: "For what..? For..?"
Netflix: "Twenty million dollars an hour, couldn't you do a transphobia for two or three hours, at twenty million dollars an hour?"
Gervais looks at camera.

JaDanketies

Can't think of any good AIDS jokes or gay jokes. I can think of some racist jokes where the punchline is the racist, and I think those still work, but I can't think of the equivalent for gay jokes. Maybe there's a general humour in inserting things into your arsehole and there's a Venn diagram with some gay jokes too although I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm sure when I first heard Careless Wispa as a punchline it was funny although I'm not sure what preceded it. Perhaps there's also some humour in being homophobic but engaging in homosexual sex acts and then making obviously poor justifications as to why it's straight, too.

Stigdu

Quote from: JaDanketies on May 29, 2022, 03:10:55 PMCan't think of any good AIDS jokes or gay jokes. I can think of some racist jokes where the punchline is the racist, and I think those still work, but I can't think of the equivalent for gay jokes. Maybe there's a general humour in inserting things into your arsehole and there's a Venn diagram with some gay jokes too although I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm sure when I first heard Careless Wispa as a punchline it was funny although I'm not sure what preceded it

Well, there's the one about the fella who's about to get on board a bus when the other fella tells him not to and ends up saving his life. My dad told me that one many years ago and I thought it was most amusing back then.