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Graham Linetransexclusionary

Started by ieXush2i, March 08, 2018, 12:12:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ieXush2i

Having a quick butcher's at the old Twitter and this popped out at me in a thread about TERFs:

QuoteNo, seriously, why is that their hill to die on?  Why is the creator of Black Books afraid of strangers' identities? How does it affect his life in any way?

Is Dylan Moran in the news, I thought? A google later revealed it was Linehan, and my memory of that very dodgy IT Crowd ep was jogged, further so by this article from 2016:

https://medium.com/@AlexaEphemera/its-time-to-call-out-graham-linehan-s-ugly-transphobia-30b15be317a5

QuoteOf course, people familiar with Linehan's body of work will not be at all surprised by this. In 2009 he penned a particularly transphobic episode of the IT Crowd called "Fight" in which the character of Douglas Reynholm starts dating a woman. Early on in the episode, she informs him that she is trans, but he mishears her, leading her to wrongly conclude that he accepts her for who she is. For the rest of the episode we see her fulfil numerous male stereotypes such as enjoying action movies and drinking pints of beer which leads Douglas to believe that he has found the perfect woman. The "comedy" concludes with Douglas learning the truth and the titular "Fight" plays out.

The alarming thing is, he genuinely holds the opinion that trans women aren't real women (and won't respond in good faith when asked if trans men aren't real men) to the extent that this is his pinned tweet:

https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/971430912297783297
QuoteGraham Linehan Retweeted H Brunskell-Evans

I was going to stay out of this but fuck it, I can switch off my replies for another few days. This open letter, especially the last few paragraphs that begin "in conclusion", is where I stand on the matter of trans issues.

which links to this, an Open Letter from TERF Dr. Heather Brunskell-Evans, who lost her elected position within the Women's Equality Party for her views. What strikes me about her is the similarity to people who claimed they weren't homophobic, but were against same-sex marriage - a homophobic position.

I didn't know this was an issue Linehan was invested in enough to take the erasure side, but I can't help but wonder if it's all a defensive position he took up in response to criticism from that IT Crowd ep.

DeGrise

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 12:12:33 PM
I didn't know this was an issue Linehan was invested in enough to take the erasure side, but I can't help but wonder if it's all a defensive position he took up in response to criticism from that IT Crowd ep.

If only there was some way of asking him.

Lots of women have very real and sensible concerns about how self-identifying trans people's rights have been forced together with their own rights. Surely you can see that people could have legitimate concerns about people with penises in women's toilets? Or that self-ID trans women are allowed onto AWS that women have fought for years to get?

If the Labour party was serious about trans rights, and about getting trans people into parliament, it could have set up all trans shortlists. But it didn't. And any dissent for this policy has led to exclusion from the party, rather than thinking that perhaps this policy is poorly thought out.

Nobody I know that has stood against this is against trans rights. They all believe trans rights are important. It's about how these rights are being implemented.

Beagle 2

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 12:12:33 PM

The alarming thing is, he genuinely holds the opinion that trans women aren't real women (and won't respond in good faith when asked if trans men aren't real men) to the extent that this is his pinned tweet:

https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/971430912297783297
which links to this, an Open Letter from TERF Dr. Heather Brunskell-Evans, who lost her elected position within the Women's Equality Party for her views. What strikes me about her is the similarity to people who claimed they weren't homophobic, but were against same-sex marriage - a homophobic position.

Is it that alarming? A comedy writer holds an opinion on a complicated issue - and if it aligns with what Dr. Brunsell-Evans outlines in that letter then it's a thoughtful and valid one. That's it really. If you are alarmed that anybody might publicly say things that don't 100% match up with what you believe the 'right' thing to be, you are easily alarmed.

I haven't watched the IT Crowd episode because the IT Crowd is shit, but it sounds misjudged and distasteful in retrospect, but even that short amount of time ago was probably culturally seen as fair game for comedy. Writers operate within those parameters.

lankyguy95

Someone holds a different opinion to you on complex gender issues. Whatever next...

ieXush2i

Quote from: DeGrise on March 08, 2018, 12:29:55 PM
If only there was some way of asking him.

He's not taking questions, as his pinned tweet explains.

Do I have to burn my Father Ted dvd's? Should I save up and do one quarterly or as each issue comes to light?

Captain Z

It gets worse. He once wrote a whole set of a Catholic priest characters who often expressed behaviour that befitted typical stereotypes. It's no wonder you never see that mentioned any more.

madhair60

That doesn't appear to be his pinned tweet?

Danger Man

Quote from: Captain Z on March 08, 2018, 12:49:53 PM
It gets worse. He once wrote a whole set of a Catholic priest characters who often expressed behaviour that befitted typical stereotypes. It's no wonder you never see that mentioned any more.

Even worser, he co-wrote a show which appeared to make fun of the early stages of dementia in an old man......that's ok, actually.

ieXush2i

Quote from: DeGrise on March 08, 2018, 12:29:55 PM
If only there was some way of asking him.

Lots of women have very real and sensible concerns about how self-identifying trans people's rights have been forced together with their own rights. Surely you can see that people could have legitimate concerns about people with penises in women's toilets? Or that self-ID trans women are allowed onto AWS that women have fought for years to get?

If the Labour party was serious about trans rights, and about getting trans people into parliament, it could have set up all trans shortlists. But it didn't. And any dissent for this policy has led to exclusion from the party, rather than thinking that perhaps this policy is poorly thought out.

Nobody I know that has stood against this is against trans rights. They all believe trans rights are important. It's about how these rights are being implemented.

Again, I refer you to the "I'm not homophobic, but..." bullshit smokescreen employed by people who didn't want to be perceived as homophobic despite holding an intrinsically homophobic position.

What is this sensationalist (and yes, transphobic) nonsense about penises in toilets by the way? Unisex toilets have existed for ages. Akin to "you can't have gays in football/the military because they'll be looking at all the men in the showers" crap of the recent past.

ieXush2i

Quote from: madhair60 on March 08, 2018, 12:51:47 PM
That doesn't appear to be his pinned tweet?

Just checked and it still is, has been for the past 20 hours.

ieXush2i

Quote from: Captain Z on March 08, 2018, 12:49:53 PM
It gets worse. He once wrote a whole set of a Catholic priest characters who often expressed behaviour that befitted typical stereotypes. It's no wonder you never see that mentioned any more.

Yes, that seems totally equivalent.

madhair60

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 12:54:37 PM
Just checked and it still is, has been for the past 20 hours.

Soz, cache hadn't cleared or something.

Kelvin

I read the first part of that article (the bit about the National Geographic cover) and thought it was being a bit harsh on Linehan. He didn't appear to be expressing a position of malice or callousness, just missing the point a bit, and being inadvertently, "casually" transphobic. It's the sort of thing that should be pointed out and explained, but without being too harsh on the person making the error.

...


And then I watched the clip from the IT crowd.

Holy fuck.

madhair60

Just read the open letter and yes, I think I agree with her on this. Not sure why it's even a controversial position.

DeGrise

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 12:53:16 PM

What is this sensationalist (and yes, transphobic) nonsense about penises in toilets by the way? Unisex toilets have existed for ages. Akin to "you can't have gays in football/the military because they'll be looking at all the men in the showers" crap of the recent past.

Just because you aren't concerned about it, doesn't make other people not concerned about it.

It's women that are being impacted by it, and women that are being forced to go along with it.

I don't believe that considering other people's valid concerns is transphobic. And I think saying that any dissent is transphobic is bellendery of the highest order. But I guess I'm wrong and you're right because you used a false comparison.

You've certainly won me over.

purlieu

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 12:53:16 PM
What is this sensationalist (and yes, transphobic) nonsense about penises in toilets by the way? Unisex toilets have existed for ages.
Yes, it's a bit daft given the complete lack of any cases of trans women sexually abusing cis women in women's toilets in the first place. The alternative, of course, is having people who present as female going into men's toilets, which strikes me as a much more dangerous option.

Eh, Linehan's stance is a bit old fashioned, but I've been disappointed by his attitude towards a lot of things now so it's not the biggest deal for me. The IT Crowd scene is one of those which in its own vacuum is excusable - Douglas is written a fairly horrible bigot, so his attitude fits his character - but basically it plays a man wanting to beat up a woman for being trans for laughs, which is just fucking horrible. But there are also episodes which run the fine line of homophobia and ableism too. So I'm not surprised.

The real issue with the open letter - which is, to be fair, well worded and not particularly hateful - is the suggested idea that trans women who are physically pre-op shouldn't yet class as women. It's the association of 'penis = not woman', as if the removal of one organ suddenly changes a person. Gender and biological sex are different, as the letter points out, but then it also gives this idea that one has to change one's physical condition to be allowed into the female club.

jobotic

What's with all the "so now I have to burn my Father Ted dvds do I? DO I?" replies?

Where has (Ex poster) said anything of the sort?

ieXush2i

Quote from: madhair60 on March 08, 2018, 12:58:36 PM
Just read the open letter and yes, I think I agree with her on this. Not sure why it's even a controversial position.

I like the way she backs up her position with examples, evidence and all that good stuff.

ieXush2i

Quote from: jobotic on March 08, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
What's with all the "so now I have to burn my Father Ted dvds do I? DO I?" replies?

Where has (Ex poster) said anything of the sort?

People are disingenuous fuckers, see

Twed

glinner is a TERF piece of shit.

Can't believe there are multiple people here with the North Carolina right-winger attitude towards bathrooms.

Twed

QuoteThe more 'the progressive left' enshrines in its constitutions and policies its belief that transwomen are women, and that boys who do not conform to gender stereotypes are girls, and compels its party members and officials to faithfully adhere, the greater the need for women to resist such authoritarianism and to continue their historical struggles for bodily, intellectual and political freedoms.
Because "somehow"

Also "actually things should all just be the way I think they should be, because authoritarianism is bad" when it's other people's authoritarianism.

Quote

The IT Crowd definitely existed to be a serious vehicle for Linehan's thoughts on binary sexuality and transgender issues...

He sneaked it past us with the superficially comical exterior, in order to air his hateful views on trans people. For shame.

ieXush2i

Quote from: Twed on March 08, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
Because "somehow"

Also "actually things should all just be the way I think they should be, because authoritarianism is bad" when it's other people's authoritarianism.

Her open letter implies that her expulsion was solely for the Moral Maze appearance, and not for her outspoken twattery like

Quote"There's something very dark going on. People who were male are now in the Women's Equality Party, dictating what the party spokeswoman should say on issues affecting women and girls. You could not write this.

The cowardliness of institutional response is more than reprehensible. No one will speak out. Good people are standing back, doing nothing, as others get pilloried.

Swap a few words and it's the same victim card shit peddled by anti-SJWs, MRAs, InfoWars fans etc

ieXush2i

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 01:27:10 PM
The IT Crowd definitely existed to be a serious vehicle for Linehan's thoughts on binary sexuality and transgender issues...

He sneaked it past us with the superficially comical exterior, in order to air his hateful views on trans people. For shame.

Bernard Manning and Roy Chubby Brown's jokes on race, women, immigration and the like are merely jokes, I see now. It is all so clear.

Trans people with experience of assault (an alarmingly high amount of them), shut up and laugh!

Serge

I've always had a problem with that episode of 'IT Crowd' because of the absolute fucking lameness of portraying a trans woman as still being into lager & football & all that blokey stuff, because it's basically humour on the level of, 'Because she's still a bloke underneath it all, geddit?'

I don't think it's a simple as Linehan being transphobic, though the fact he would let it out like that shows that he certainly does have issues to deal with on that score, it's more that by that point he was 'legendary comedy writer Graham Linehan, creator of Father Ted', and was allowed to get away with so much shoddy writing, that the idea of even trying to create a nuanced portryal of a trans character would have been beyond him. Going slightly off topic, but there is a reason, in the script book for 'Father Ted', he makes a big thing about the joke where Tom covers Ted & Dougal in gallons of shit being an obvious and hackneyed joke being the point of the joke, which at that point, he probably could just about get away with. His writing on 'IT Crowd' got lazier and lazier to the point where he could let shit like that just be the joke on its own, so we get the horrific scenes in that episode. It's made even more obvious by the fact that the pay-off is that Douglas thinks she said "I was born in Iran" which doesn't even work as a fucking joke in any way. And it would have been more in keeping with Douglas's character that he wouldn't give a shit that she was transsexual anyway. But then Linehan wouldn't have been able to do all those hilarious football and lager gags, obviously.

DeGrise

It's not the trans part that's concerning.

It's the self-ID part.

Surely you can see that this is a legitimate concern for women? And that being concerned does not make you transphobic?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Beagle 2 on March 08, 2018, 12:44:13 PM
If you are alarmed that anybody might publicly say things that don't 100% match up with what you believe the 'right' thing to be, you are easily alarmed.


This.

bgmnts

I think it was just a bit of shit comedy. Move on.

ieXush2i

Quote from: bgmnts on March 08, 2018, 01:49:32 PM
I think it was just a bit of shit comedy. Move on.

It's easy to say that if you've not experienced trans violence.

Interesting how comedy all of a sudden is reduced to being somehow context-free and apolitical (small p) in this thread.