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March 28, 2024, 01:20:37 PM

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Wheesht 17: Alt-right, Alt-right, Glinner's Nearly Alt-Right (Deep Deep Down)

Started by Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse, March 28, 2022, 12:37:09 AM

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YouCantWriteTearsJimmy

Quote from: Ex_GC on May 03, 2022, 08:59:55 AMNot gonna lie, the term 'birthing bodies' is awful. Parents/ people fine, but bodies? Nah

Gives them an easy way to pivot the conversation of abortion to transwomen too. They're going to try to do that anyway "oh you said women, i thought you couldn't define women, Hmmmmmmmmm, ?!curious?!". I really don't know how modern non-batshitwing political PR can cope with this. Strike back with the same bad faith takes, you're going to lose, try to seriously answer with nuance and caveats, you're going to lose, etc.

Sonny_Jim

Just looking through Oliophs tweets and noticed something.  Very rarely do they actually respond, it's usually 'drive-by' '''sick burns'''.  Then that led me to thinking, he likes arguing with people about gender because he's memorised all of his attack moves and it's all he does every single day, like some kind of TERF otaku.

I think the reason why he never engages with the people taking the piss is because he knows he can't just memorise a set of words, he actually has to be creative and come up with something funny.

Zetetic

The use of obtuse language is one of those weird counterproductive things that:
a) Rarely seriously improves inclusivity.
b) Frequently undermines accessibility.
c) Often makes statements less accurate, under the guise of pseudo-precision.

Supports idea that there is a "powerful trans lobby" - which there kind of is, so long as you except that the power of this lobby extends exactly as far as doing a bunch of pointless shit in the name of visibility and absolutely nothing to actually help trans people.

Zetetic

If your support for access to safe abortion extends beyond rhetorical questions about troubled ex-funnyman Graham Linehan's behaviour, then you could consider donating to the ASN:
https://www.asn.org.uk/

pigamus


PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on May 03, 2022, 09:22:47 AMJust looking through Oliophs tweets and noticed something.  Very rarely do they actually respond, it's usually 'drive-by' '''sick burns'''.  Then that led me to thinking, he likes arguing with people about gender because he's memorised all of his attack moves and it's all he does every single day, like some kind of TERF otaku.

I think the reason why he never engages with the people taking the piss is because he knows he can't just memorise a set of words, he actually has to be creative and come up with something funny.

He memorised all of Seinfeld, and for a while, that was enough

Then he memorised all of mumsnet, and for a while that was enough

2025, a local character, walking the streets of Norfolk in a corduroy suit and a purple wig, barging into people and responding the same words to any attempt at interaction: I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I?!

did you know he used to be a writer or something

Zetetic

Quote from: pigamus on May 03, 2022, 09:59:23 AMIsn't visibility quite an important thing in its own right?
Some forms might be. Half-arsedly find-and-replacing "women" out for "people assigned female at birth" or "birthing bodies" is up there with painting flags on roads.

Kankurette


shoulders

Quote from: Zetetic on May 03, 2022, 09:50:40 AMThe use of obtuse language is one of those weird counterproductive things that:
a) Rarely seriously improves inclusivity.
b) Frequently undermines accessibility.
c) Often makes statements less accurate, under the guise of pseudo-precision.

Supports idea that there is a "powerful trans lobby" - which there kind of is, so long as you except that the power of this lobby extends exactly as far as doing a bunch of pointless shit in the name of visibility and absolutely nothing to actually help trans people.


Are we including 'cis' in this, a phrase I would perhaps sloppily estimate a majority of people in the UK

- Have heard of, know what it means but don't use either in reference to themselves or others
- Have heard of but don't know what it means
- Have barely heard of outside of an anti-woke 'PC brigade' type joke
- Have never heard of

Perhaps the further letters and symbols added onto LGBT also qualify here (particularly as the T, and accompanying alliance with transpeople seems to be frequently forgotten or worse, disputed)

Zetetic

Maybe. However, I feel I generally only encounter "cis" in fairly specific contexts where you'd expect to encounter gender-identity-related jargon.

madhair60


shoulders

Quote from: Zetetic on May 03, 2022, 10:34:04 AMMaybe. However, I feel I generally only encounter "cis" in fairly specific contexts where you'd expect to encounter gender-identity-related jargon.

Isn't the point though that cis is being promoted to become in common usage in replacement for existing language that is in common rather than academic use, provoking dispute, culture wars, etc and hitting some of your below points* (as I understand them, at least) in that people find it challenging and obstructive, sometimes also displacing and oblique, rather than helpful.


*
a) Rarely seriously improves inclusivity.
b) Frequently undermines accessibility.
c) Often makes statements less accurate, under the guise of pseudo-precision

George Oscar Bluth II

"Birthing bodies" absolutely sucks I'm afraid. As does any use of "bodies" when "people" will do.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure the tiny number of transgender men who give birth will be that upset if the catch-all term "mothers" continues to be used? Just feels like a very, very easy stick for the Glinner tendency to pick up to use against us.

Barry Admin

@shoulders Promoted where and by who? And which terms is it seeking to replace?

Zetetic

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on May 03, 2022, 10:47:22 AMTo be honest I'm not entirely sure the tiny number of transgender men who give birth will be that upset if the catch-all term "mothers" continues to be used?
This touches part of the problem - the actual intended referent isn't "people who've given birth" it's (something like) "people who are capable of getting pregnant, now or in the future".

Capturing this precisely is difficult, so you're probably better off choosing a vague and ambiguous term whose meaning can be sharpened by the context (which is "abortions") - in this case, probably "women".

(Edit: Which you can then expand on, given space.)

Zetetic

Noting that "mother" is also a very tricky term in the context of terminations anyway - not everyone who has given birth to something living would like to be called a "mother" (and some people consider themselves mothers despite pre-natal deaths of their child) and the sensitivities here are extreme and not uncommon.

shoulders

Quote from: Barry Admin on May 03, 2022, 10:47:47 AM@shoulders Promoted where and by who? And which terms is it seeking to replace?

I am concerned this suspicious set of questions carry a suggestion I am entering the conversation with an ulterior motive or try to push some tendentious point, which I'm not, so we should at least establish basic, agreed upon starting points.

https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-does-it-mean-to-be-cisgender-103159

It's uncontroversial and widely acknowledged that the term cisgender was coined and in doing so many of its users since are seeking to spread awareness not only of its meaning but its practical everyday usage. Why wouldn't they? No-one invested wants to see something fall into obscurity. Just like most other new terms, that takes some proselytising and marketing to reach critical mass. That doesn't necessarily mean it is bad or good, that can be neutral or some of one and some of the other.

In terms of the second question, its purpose as I understand it is to avoid the conflation between sex and gender which occurred through previous terms being used, (otherwise it would have been a more redundant creation).

I replied to Zetetic because of the point regarding the effect of terminology, and so far I haven't seen sufficient evidence that cis is going to surpass the status of a 'trench term' that some people use and others go out of their way not to use. I'm not criticising its meaning or the motives behind promoting it, more the word itself, the sound it makes, the effect it has on people who previously used a term they felt defined a crucial part of their identity, and exploring whether a word with a less obtuse assortment of letters, with recognisable cultural ties would catch on and not sink into trench terminology.

Dr Rock

'Everybody who gets pregnant deserves protection' sounds better. Anyway, let's not get away from the fact that Floorsharter seems to only care about this awful situation if she can score 'sex matters' points.


George Oscar Bluth II

Quote from: Dr Rock on May 03, 2022, 11:09:32 AM'Everybody who gets pregnant deserves protection' sounds better.

Indeed.

Quote from: Dr Rock on May 03, 2022, 11:09:32 AMAnyway, let's not get away from the fact that Floorsharter seems to only care about this awful situation if she can score 'sex matters' points.

Yes. Her allies have come for trans rights in the US but they've moved on already to abortion rights, will same sex marriage survive?

shoulders

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on May 03, 2022, 11:11:31 AMIndeed.

Yes. Her allies have come for trans rights in the US but they've moved on already to abortion rights, will same sex marriage survive?

Also interesting to observe the similarity in that many anti-abortionists, like anti-trans activists consider themselves 'the true progressives' and that is the position they confect to conceal their inherent conservatism and desire to move backwards.

Liberals have mistaken the last few decades as a change of heart from many conservatives when we're waking up to the fact it was a tactical retreat to regain power, reshape the agenda, and move back to how it was before.


Ex_GC

Quote from: Dr Rock on May 03, 2022, 11:09:32 AM'Everybody who gets pregnant deserves protection' sounds better. Anyway, let's not get away from the fact that Floorsharter seems to only care about this awful situation if she can score 'sex matters' points.



You're not wrong but that also doesn't take away from the fact that 'birthing bodies' sounds awful. I'm all for inclusive language but honestly, language like birthing bodies is one of the reasons how people end up down a GC rabbithole

retsuza

Quote from: trabuch on May 03, 2022, 02:59:55 AMI'm sure the king of women will be all over this. But of course he won't because there is so much going on.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/02/us/politics/roe-v-wade-abortion-supreme-court.html

Well a quick check on his dispered internet presence for even the mere mention of this news:

@Oliophi ❌
@grahamlinehan7 ❌
gettr Graham ❌
SGB ❌
Graham on FB ❌

Think he's just not go to it yet though tbh, it's only noon after all and he could still be in bed. How on earth do you commit to being a woman's rights crusader and not talk about this, especially when he has a history of pro-choice activism.

If I had to guess he'll probably just let JL or someone else write a thing about it for the blog while he's too pre-occupied with something more important (fake outrage story of the day like Microsoft Word 'censoring' the phrase pregnant women or something).

Zetetic

Quote from: shoulders on May 03, 2022, 10:41:02 AMIsn't the point though that cis is being promoted to become in common usage in replacement for existing language that is in common rather than academic use
I'm not sure what existing language you're referring to, but I think that's partly tied up with other problems with convincing people to use "cis" of themselves (i.e. that it's picking out a novel concept, and one mostly characterised by absence of experiences - more so than "straight" or "white" or "man" ever were).

(We might need to consider another thread?)

Pimhole

Quote from: Better Midlands on May 03, 2022, 08:37:39 AMNot true, they're on it




Argh shut the fuck up Maya, the grown ups are talking about important stuff.

Some more US-based abortion support funds:

https://linktr.ee/teafund
https://www.yellowhammerfund.org/

retsuza

On his Facebook he is celebrating a guy being banned (I thought this was cancel culture / against free speech, Graham?) and he fucks up Allison Bailey's surname:



This was from five days ago and all the comments are correcting him on her name and he hasn't edited his post or made a reply acknowledging the mistake.

I get his brain being mushy banana being a factor in not being able to remember basic facts about other people but at least have the decency to correct yourself.


Dr Rock

All black women have interchangable surnames to him? That's racist.

Barry Admin

Quote from: shoulders on May 03, 2022, 11:03:13 AMI am concerned this suspicious set of questions carry a suggestion I am entering the conversation with an ulterior motive or try to push some tendentious point, which I'm not, so we should at least establish basic, agreed upon starting points.

Lol, okay. Bailing from the rest of your post there mate.

Sonny_Jim

Quote from: retsuza on May 03, 2022, 12:07:29 PMhe hasn't edited his post or made a reply acknowledging the mistake.
That's incredible.  Is he going to pretend he only checks Facebook once a week?

wrec

Quote from: retsuza on May 03, 2022, 12:07:29 PMThis was from five days ago and all the comments are correcting him on her name and he hasn't edited his post or made a reply acknowledging the mistake.

I get his brain being mushy banana being a factor in not being able to remember basic facts about other people but at least have the decency to correct yourself.

Somehow, he is right about this and therefore no correction is required. Shut UP! Fuck OFF!