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March 28, 2024, 09:48:01 AM

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Prosecco Stormfront [split topic]

Started by Kankurette, April 26, 2022, 08:11:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

bgmnts

Yeah that "walking on eggshells" language is very reminiscent of your bog standard old racists isn't it?

greencalx

Why do right-wingers cast themselves as the victims and underdogs all the time, when they've been on top for at least the last 40 years, if not, forever.

Kankurette

They'll never be satisfied until every single person agrees with them.

phantom_power

Quote from: greencalx on April 30, 2022, 09:21:52 AMWhy do right-wingers cast themselves as the victims and underdogs all the time, when they've been on top for at least the last 40 years, if not, forever.

GB News viewers are saying Anne Diamond and Eammon Holmes are lefties so they seem to be confused about what "they" actually are

Kankurette

And of course they have to make the Roe vs Wade nightmare about trans people. "One side's trying to take abortion away from us but the other side uses the phrase 'birthing bodies', what do?"

But at least Republicans know what a woman is.



Just because someone reads the Daily Mail and votes Tory doesn't mean they're right wing.

Kankurette

Yeah, you're not right-wing at all, you just spout right-wing talking points, agree with right-wing papers, call everything remotely left-wing 'woke', post threads about how Tucker Carlson/Lawrence Fox/Tommy Robinson has a point, and vote for a right-wing party despite knowing full well they will continue to fuck you over. I mean, I don't exactly like Keith but that doesn't mean I'm going to vote for the fucking Tories.

Single-issue voting is so fucking privileged. Mumsnetters would vote for Attila the Hun if he said he hated trans people. Plenty of them supported Trump even though Trump's misogyny is visible from space.

bgmnts


Pink Gregory

If they're ambivalent about the rights for women that are under threat from the right wing body politic, then it begs the question what they actually want?

Do they want women's rights in the workplace, reproductive rights etc to be means tested?  Gatekept by a very specific type of woman?

They get something out of the means (posting) but what do they want out of the actual ends?

Kankurette

They always make a big show of calling the Daily Mail the Daily Fail/Heil/Wail and apologise for posting links, and it's so annoying. Just admit you read it, you cowards.

Dr Rock

If the one issue you care about eclipses everything else, and your position on that issue makes you a fascist*, you might be right wing.


*terfism fits most of Umberto Eco's fascist checklist

''Eco reduces the qualities of what he calls "Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism" down to 14 "typical" features. "These features," writes the novelist and semiotician, "cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it."

1  The cult of tradition. "One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements."
2  The rejection of modernism. "The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism."
  3  The cult of action for action's sake. "Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation."
  4  Disagreement is treason. "The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge."
  5  Fear of difference. "The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition."
  6  Appeal to social frustration. "One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups."
  7 The obsession with a plot. "Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged."
  8 The enemy is both strong and weak. "By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."
  9  Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. "For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle."
  10 Contempt for the weak. "Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology."
  11 Everybody is educated to become a hero. "In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death."
  12 Machismo and weaponry. "Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
  13 Selective populism. "There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People."
  14 Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. "All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning."

Kankurette

I'll go through the checklist Dr Rock posted point by point, as a lot of it applies to Mumsnet. Apologies for broad generalisations.

1  The cult of tradition. "One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements."
Despite its seemingly liberal nature, Mumsnet is deeply reactionary at heart. They are obsessed with class, and I don't mean class analysis. More like 'is it common to do/have X?' They also have a longing for the past as things were better then - see Eco's next point.

2  The rejection of modernism. "The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism."
A lot of Mumsnetters hark back to the Good Old Days ('50s-'70s) when wokeness didn't exist, when people were more stoic and resilient, when you could say what you want without offending anyone, when men and women dressed neatly, when kids were more polite, etc. Nostalgia is huge on there. This even includes the '90s, and as someone who grew up in the '90s, I had to laugh at people claiming kids played outside and there were no screens. There was a LOT of handwringing about video games and kids sitting on their fat bums watching telly instead of playing outside (my mum did it a lot).

  3  The cult of action for action's sake. "Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation."
I'm not sure how big Mumsnet is on action, but the TERF crowd with the dinosaur suits, leaflets etc. certainly are. See Glinner/JKR threads.

  4  Disagreement is treason. "The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge."
Try posting in FWR that you believe trans women are women. It will go down like a lead balloon. You'll be called 'woke', a 'handmaiden', 'dick panderer' etc. Mumsnetters claim that the other side are intolerant to others' opinions, which is just a wee bit rich. AIBU is absolutely horrific.

  5  Fear of difference. "The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition."
Mumsnetters are very sneery about tattoos, dyed hair, piercings, and 'alternative' looks. 'Blue hair' is used as an insult for stereotypical right-on queer types. Style & Beauty is extremely conservative - they're very big on Parisienne fashion, whatever the hell that is. They also really, really hate fat women. They disguise it in concern trolling about the NHS but it's bullshit, they find fat women ugly and repulsive, and fat men even more so. (Conservatives, incidentally, also really hate fat people. Despite Trump and Johnson not exactly being thin themselves.)

  6  Appeal to social frustration. "One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups."
Blaming trans people for everything wrong with society, for a start. Labour won't get in because they're too pro-trans, not because, IDK, Starmer has the charisma of a wet dishrag and is moving Labour to the centre. Mumsnet is also predominantly middle-class, to the point where working-class posters feel alienated.

  7 The obsession with a plot. "Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged."
Not quite as bad as your average 'wharblgarbl THE JOOZ DID IT' fascist type, but there is a vocal antivaxx/conspiracy theorist contingent on there.

  8 The enemy is both strong and weak. "By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."
Trans women are an example. They're both violent, bigoted perverts and psychos who ID as women so they can get into shelters, toilets, changing rooms etc. and rape cis women, yet they're also easily offended wimps who wouldn't survive a war (like your average Mumsnetter would) and get offended if you so much as breathe on them.

  9  Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. "For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle."
There is a vocal contingent of Mumsnetters who obsess about how this generation wouldn't survive a war, not like the strong silent men of WW2, and have a positive boner for the war years. Were we in the 1910s, they'd be handing out white feathers. When the war in Ukraine broke out, there were plenty of threads about the war maybe coming here and how useless Brits are and how they're too snowflakey to fight, or how we can't have conscription because the wokes would ban it, or whatever. I'm sure they'd all be happy for their kids to be cannon fodder, right? It makes you wonder why they don't just fuck off to Syria if they like fighting so much.

  10 Contempt for the weak. "Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology."
See above points. Lots of sneering about 'snowflakes', people being easily offended (this from a site where users shit themselves about drag queens, black people in ads, and so on), and kids not being resilient enough. There is an obsession with resilience, which in Mumsnet world means 'acting like a robot'. Mumsnet is also shockingly ableist. If a man behaves badly, posters will ask if he's autistic or mentally ill, not to mention the sheer contempt for people who were shielding during COVID.

  11 Everybody is educated to become a hero. "In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death."
Not sure about this one, but some Mumsnetters have an inflated idea of their own badassery. No, being menopausal is not going to turn you into Nancy Wake or Ludmila Pavlichenko.

  12 Machismo and weaponry. "Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
There's a depressing amount of 'pick me, I'm one of the good ones' types on Mumsnet. There's a female trucker called EightWheelGirl who regularly talks about how much she hates feminism and how weak women are, and there's others who think ANY criticism of men is 'misandry'. They're pretty down on sex workers - not just genuine concerns about abusive pimps and trafficking, they hate sex workers in general because they find the idea of a woman selling her body 'immoral'. Mumsnet also is pretty fucking homophobic, to nobody's surprise. I don't care if FWR has lesbian regulars, the majority of women on there are straight and you can tell.

  13 Selective populism. "There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People."
Hmmmmm. Sound familiar? "At least X knows who a woman is, he has my support."

  14 Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. "All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning."
Not exactly an impoverished vocabulary, but TERFs, especially the Mumsnet ones, have stock responses. There's 'biological facts', 'denying biology', 'at least X knows what a woman is', 'what is a woman?', 'cis is a slur', 'adult human female', 'sophistry', 'women's rights', 'blue hair', 'wokery', 'if you don't respect my sex, you won't get my x', 'I am Spartacus', and so on.

Kankurette

Perfect example of point 1 from a thread about school uniform: claiming uniform encouraged kids to be more 'moral'. And attacking parents for picking their kids up in onesies or PJs. The horror!

greencalx

God yeah the uniform fetishism. Usually accompanied by some guff involving that godawful phrase "the world of work". The fact that all the research shows that uniforms are mostly a gimmick, and many countries manage to educate kids without them, would just be met with "but the world of work".

Re point 3, I remember in the politics threads people being very smug about the Brexit protest marches they went on, and whinged endlessly about the fact it never got reported on the news. Seemed never to have encountered the concept of news values. Bunch of people walked down a street in London, shouted a bit, went home again doesn't really cut it.

Kankurette

They were the same about the antivaxx protests. Complaining that the BBC didn't cover them. As if a bunch of cranks deserve attention.

Not everyone on there is pro-uniform BUT there are definitely vocal posters who are because it saves time deciding what to wear (which is fair enough when you're a busy mum, I guess), because it prepares kids for the world of work (as you said, a lot of jobs DON'T wear suits or uniforms - in my last office job it was smart/casual for admin workers), it teaches kids morals, it's an equaliser and it means kids won't be bullied (this is bullshit, I went to a school that had uniform and I got bullied over my coat, hair and the way I carried my bag), it makes kids look smart, and no/lax uniform means poor academic performance. And lots of longing for the Good Old Days when you got bollocked for eating in the street with your blazer on.

Aren't all these newfangled academies very big on uniform? And pulling kids up for having the wrong-coloured socks on or whatever.

dissolute ocelot

I'm sure a lot of the uniform-mania is harking back to a mythical past where everyone was well-behaved and did what they told and knew their place, not like today with kids with blue hair claiming they're all non-binary. If you're in a country that never had school uniform, the only appeal they have is fetish and British TV/film.

Uniform seems to put as much pressure on parents as non-uniform. It's "Is there a clean white shirt?" and "Where's my tie? I spilt my lunch on it!" vs "Mum where's my top I want to wear?"

But this idea that people need to learn to shut up, follow orders, and wear a uniform, so they can join the world of work, only really applies to a subset of jobs. If you want your child to do something that is satisfying or pays more than minimum wage, you need to teach them other values.

greencalx

Super strict uniform mandates seem to be quite popular these days. Along with homework, it's an easy and visible (and hence superficial) thing that managers can do to improve the look of a school, and your "you just have to do what you can to help your children get ahead in life" types just lap it up. (Actually at secondary level homework has some value, but at primary it's main value is a vehicle for parents to have a clue about what's going on in school, as kids apparently rarely learn anything from it).

Occasionally our local high school has a non uniform day and I find the kids tend to look smarter then than in their shabby school clothes. But that's probably because they're putting in some effort that one day. We had our own thread on here about the values or otherwise of uniform - I think we were fairly split on the issue. There's pros and cons to both, but as you say, a lot of the supposed advantages (making people's financial backgrounds less obvious) are a bit bogus as there are almost always other dimensions along which one can deviate and discriminate.

At my school there was a lot of freedom around PE kit, particularly footwear, as well as bags, so of course these were the things used to decide what was cool and what was not.

Juan K Perros

My school didn't have a uniform and I turned out alright.

(Actually I didn't, I'm typing this from prison)

Dr Rock

I was forced to wear a school uniform and ended up stealing a bus (and a torch). Makes you think.

JaDanketies

#79
Uniform is for dickheads. Hated my school uniform policy and still feel that same visceral repulsion 20 years later. And our uniform wasn't even that bad, no ties or blazers.

People still knew what shoes meant you were poor.

Kids missed out on a day of education and parents had to find emergency childcare because their socks had a white stripe on. Kids hit by cars on the way home because coats must be a dark colour. Even the worst employer lets you pick your own socks and coat.

Kankurette

The socks thing is pure control freakery. And 'I wore my uniform with pride'. Maybe I'm biased because I hated my school but why would you be proud of your school unless you're a Girls' Own character?

I don't get the horror of people who go out in pyjamas either.

Fambo Number Mive

I'm surprised that no political party has proposed regulating how much schools can demand parents spend on their uniforms. It seem ludicrous to me some of the reports I've read of school uniform costs and how specific parts of the uniform have to be. I reckon some schools are involved in dodgy deals with their uniform suppliers to try and make parents pay as much money as possible.

I agree about the pyjamas as well. I remember reading about a Tesco store which banned people in pyjamas and the manager was quoted as saying something like "we don't want customers who can't be bothered to get dressed".

greencalx

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 08, 2022, 08:29:25 AMI'm surprised that no political party has proposed regulating how much schools can demand parents spend on their uniforms. It seem ludicrous to me some of the reports I've read of school uniform costs and how specific parts of the uniform have to be. I reckon some schools are involved in dodgy deals with their uniform suppliers to try and make parents pay as much money as possible.

This.

I thought about this a bit more after my last post (shocking, I know) and wondered if it's primarily a device to scare away pupils who are (statistically) harder to teach and get yourself up those all-important league tables. You might not be able to charge a fee, but you can do it by stealth with ludicrous uniform restrictions. When I read about schools punishing kids, or sending them home, for minor uniform infractions (wrong stripe direction or some wankery like that), I find myself wondering about their statutory duty to provide an education. Frankly the schools should be fined for doing this. I can understand that you don't want them showing up in T-shirts with obscene slogans, or whatever, but this level of control is obscene.

One of the few benefits of living in an economically diverse area is that the local schools are very sensitive to the cost of things, and the uniform policies are very down to earth. Yes you can go online and buy the jumper with the school logo (which is actually reasonably attractive) embroidered into it, but you can also wear a plain supermarket own-brand version as long as it's in roughly the right colour (of which there is a choice of two, but everyone defaults to the darker one so you don't have to wash them as often). The parents' association also takes in outgrown uniform for recycling, so you could probably clothe your kids in second hand gear at no cost if you wanted to. I rate the fact that the kids at the school are generally polite and look out for each other far above being turned out in fucking blazers and straw hats.

Kankurette

The Johnny Depp apologists are out in full in AIBU. I should be surprised, but I'm not. Misogynistic men get a pass if they're hot and white.

Also, on another note, there's a thread by a woman who's dating a Liverpool fan and can't understand why said Liverpool fan is mad at her for not wanting to talk football. He was trying to explain why Liverpool drawing to Spurs was bad and when she made it clear she couldn't care less, he got upset. And several posters were saying that OP should make efforts to get into his hobby and understand it and 'just go to one match, you'll end up enjoying it', and I don't know why but it pissed me off (no, not because he happens to be a Liverpool fan, he could be a Northampton or Peterborough fan and I'd feel the same). How about no. Like, my stepdad is a Chelsea fan, I'll be watching the women's FA Cup final with him, and he gets a cob on when they lose but he knows Mum isn't arsed about football anymore and he doesn't get mad at her for not watching it or caring about it. Same with cricket. He loves it, she's not arsed. Why should the OP have to make herself like something she has zero interest in? She's made it clear that she doesn't like football, if he can't deal with that then he needs to get a girlfriend who does. I mean, what if it was the other way round? Like OP was a fan of BTVS and got mad about Anya dying or whatever, and her boyfriend clearly wasn't interested? Would the posters suggest buying him a Buffy box set?
Quote from: greencalx on May 08, 2022, 10:54:34 AMThis.

I thought about this a bit more after my last post (shocking, I know) and wondered if it's primarily a device to scare away pupils who are (statistically) harder to teach and get yourself up those all-important league tables. You might not be able to charge a fee, but you can do it by stealth with ludicrous uniform restrictions. When I read about schools punishing kids, or sending them home, for minor uniform infractions (wrong stripe direction or some wankery like that), I find myself wondering about their statutory duty to provide an education. Frankly the schools should be fined for doing this. I can understand that you don't want them showing up in T-shirts with obscene slogans, or whatever, but this level of control is obscene.
Possibly. I mean, Michaela is one of those super-strict schools where they even monitor what the kids talk about at lunch and have them walking around reciting poetry, and apparently - I'm not sure how true this is, mind - while they don't explicitly say 'no SEN kids', they do try and nudge them out. Can't have them letting the side down, not to mention their headmistress is a massive fucking Tory and we all know what they think of SEN kids.

The uniform obsession also means girls getting penalised for showing too much skin because they might be putting the boys off their work. Which is insulting to boys AND girls, frankly. And insisting that girls wear skirts. Some schools even have boys in short trousers until a certain age, which I thought went out with the '50s.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 08, 2022, 08:29:25 AMI'm surprised that no political party has proposed regulating how much schools can demand parents spend on their uniforms. It seem ludicrous to me some of the reports I've read of school uniform costs and how specific parts of the uniform have to be. I reckon some schools are involved in dodgy deals with their uniform suppliers to try and make parents pay as much money as possible.

I agree about the pyjamas as well. I remember reading about a Tesco store which banned people in pyjamas and the manager was quoted as saying something like "we don't want customers who can't be bothered to get dressed".

Way back in the 50s, my dirt-poor uncle was recognised as smart and gifted, and was offered a place at a good school. In the end he couldn't go because the family couldn't afford the uniform.

greencalx

Quote from: Kankurette on May 08, 2022, 11:28:48 AMI mean, Michaela is one of those super-strict schools where they even monitor what the kids talk about at lunch and have them walking around reciting poetry, and apparently - I'm not sure how true this is, mind - while they don't explicitly say 'no SEN kids', they do try and nudge them out. Can't have them letting the side down, not to mention their headmistress is a massive fucking Tory and we all know what they think of SEN kids.

I guess it would depend on the type of SEN. I can imagine some forms of neurodiversity being very compatible with the existence of clear rules whereas for others, it would be a complete fucking nightmare. Ultimately a school like this is going to end up self-selecting for rule-followers, and one imagines that rule-following will translate to good exam performance where exams are based on Gove-like principles that favour factual recall and executing rehearsed routines over creative thinking.

Mrs Michaela was in the news recently for saying that girls' pea-sized brains couldn't do physics. The fact that her teaching methods don't redress the gender imbalance in subjects like physics is one of the pieces of evidence that it's a complete load of fucking baloney and she shouldn't be allowed to practice as a teacher. (Even less the Tory social mobility tsar).

greencalx

Urghh, I just remembered something from my brief flirtation with prostofro, namely a "Business Casual" dresscode that is apparently imposed at some sixth forms. I have no idea what this means. My best guess for boys is a cheap, shiny, ill-fitting suit, which is an act of barbarism as no teenager ever looked good in a suit. God knows what it means for girls. I'm guessing that trousers'n'blouse combo that works for the office, pubbing, clubbing, weddings, funerals, and Ted Talks.

Dr Rock

In the fifth form of my grammar school the uniform was still mandatory but I just turned up first day in all grey trousers and a grey jacket and a grey tie instead of the school tie and nobody said a thing for the whole year. So any 15 year olds reading who hate their school uniform, try that.

Dr Rock

I liked grey, I was into Ultravox.

Quote from: Kankurette on May 08, 2022, 11:28:48 AMThe Johnny Depp apologists are out in full in AIBU. I should be surprised, but I'm not. Misogynistic men get a pass if they're hot and white.

It seems to be AIBU mostly pro JD, Feminism (chat) 50/50, Feminism (S&GD) mostly pro AH.

As a parent who's children have been to uniformed and non-uniformed schools having to wear a uniform is 100x easier for many reasons.