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Roe v. Wade is overturned

Started by Dark Sexy Dangerous, June 24, 2022, 03:32:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Quote from: flotemysost on June 29, 2022, 06:25:39 PMThis is properly cracking me up I'm afraid. I went to a secular school tbf but I've never heard that one before, even on unhinged online comments sections etc.


I never saw it have the desired effect. Usually someone would just ask "what if it was an expensive holiday?"

There were babies in bins videos too but all the blood and thunder was preserved for premarital fumbling and [deep breath] AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDS.

Blumf

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 28, 2022, 11:46:29 PMIn Catholic school I was told abortion was a "slippery slope" issue...

Hummm... similarly you could make a 'slippery slope' argument that reducing a person's bodily autonomy in the case of pregnancy would eventually lead to forced organ harvesting for the greater good (I know there's been some philosophers who've put that kind of reasoning to the test, similar to the trolley problem™)

Could somebody whip that half formed thought into a cogent argument and test it on some right wing religious nut jobs please.

bgmnts

I suppose it does involve a slipper slope if you're having sex at an angle.


Bernice

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 28, 2022, 11:46:29 PMIn Catholic school I was told abortion was a "slippery slope" issue
To be fair, this is why they advise you not to go on the slide for at least a day after.

Rich Uncle Skeleton

my catholic school either fast forwarded any parts of the sex education videos that talked about contraception or skipped entire episodes. definitely stopped condoms from existing.

flotemysost

Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but Dominic Raab has suggested that UK abortion rights will not be enshrined in law in the new British Bill of Rights.

Not really a shocker, tbh.

Kankurette

Oh, fucking hell, I know the Tories have a forced-birther contingent but they're not seriously going to make it illegal here too, are they? Because if they are, I'm getting sterilised.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Whether or not a foetus has personhood or even importance is up to the person who is pregnant. There are pregnant people for whom a miscarriage is a relief. There are people who aborted a badly-wanted pregnancy because the foetus had a condition that was incompatible with life. People who have abortions shouldn't have to justify themselves and all the bullshit about "oh they'll abort it to go on holiday" shows a fundamental mistrust of women.

flotemysost

Quote from: Kankurette on June 29, 2022, 09:12:04 PMOh, fucking hell, I know the Tories have a forced-birther contingent but they're not seriously going to make it illegal here too, are they? Because if they are, I'm getting sterilised.

The Bill of Rights stuff is terrifying for all sorts of reasons, but yeah this one hits home. They've already tried to roll back the legislation that allows people to have medical abortions entirely at home following a video or phone consultation (which was originally brought in during the first 2020 lockdown, but has proven to help countless people to access safe abortion - especially those in abusive relationships, or less physically able to get to in-person appointments). I absolutely won't be underestimating the contempt they have for basic human rights to safe healthcare for one instant.

It's hard not to feel incredibly anxious and despairing about it all. I'm keeping an eye on any relevant organisations/charities/new sources for updates of any campaigns or ways to support but it's hard to say how things might go.

Love to anyone feeling a bit shit about the whole thing anyway, you're not alone.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 29, 2022, 09:47:18 PMWhether or not a foetus has personhood or even importance is up to the person who is pregnant. There are pregnant people for whom a miscarriage is a relief. There are people who aborted a badly-wanted pregnancy because the foetus had a condition that was incompatible with life. People who have abortions shouldn't have to justify themselves and all the bullshit about "oh they'll abort it to go on holiday" shows a fundamental mistrust of women.

Yup. Access to safe abortions is vital healthcare, and the circumstances around any individual case is absolutely no one's fucking business except the person who needs an abortion. None of this should be up for debate.


#holibobs

bgmnts

Quote from: Kankurette on June 29, 2022, 09:12:04 PMOh, fucking hell, I know the Tories have a forced-birther contingent but they're not seriously going to make it illegal here too, are they? Because if they are, I'm getting sterilised.

As if they'll let you.

flotemysost

Out of interest re: sterilisation - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/female-sterilisation/

Sounds alright to me. Although

QuoteYou may be more likely to be accepted for the operation if you're over 30 and have had children.

Yes Dr, that's right, I don't have children. I would like things to stay this way forever please, that's precisely why I am here.

Kankurette

Quote from: bgmnts on June 29, 2022, 10:19:33 PMAs if they'll let you.
I'm pushing 40. Hardly a spring chicken.

Zero Gravitas

Quote from: Kankurette on June 29, 2022, 09:12:04 PMbut they're not seriously going to make it illegal here too, are they?

It's not formally a free personal choice here either though is it?

Quote from: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/37/section/37#commentary-c271685Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith—

(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or
(d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Arguably America had, and in some locales still has, a much more permissive view of abortion as a right of the woman with limits rather than our legal framing of it as being situationally allowable.

A large reduction of the availability of abortion in the UK would seem to depend on the judicial winds rather than law, or in the case of Northern Ireland a virtual practical impossibility due to the lack of clinics.

We've seen all to well how traditionally American brain worms can drift over the pond with covid conspiracy and vaccination panic, so it's not unthinkable.

Dex Sawash

Quote from: Astronaut Omens on June 29, 2022, 05:02:47 PMThere's been a mistake and some kind of heavy vehicle is speeding down train tracks towards a place where 10 workers are on the track. If you do nothing all 10 workers will be killed.
You can save them by pulling a lever which will divert the train onto another track. On this track there's 1 person working. That worker will be killed if you pull the lever.

What's the right thing to do and why? What's wrong with doing nothing? Do you have a duty to pull the lever? If you pull the lever does that make you more responsible for the 1 workers death than it would be if you just let the 10 workers die?

It's a series of debates around that abstract situation and others like it intended to help people express what they believe about intervening and not-intervening in life and death situations, and about the life of 1 versus the life of many.


What if it is ten baby hitlers v one anne frank?

Ferris


Zero Gravitas

Quote from: Ferris on June 30, 2022, 01:58:20 AMGood article on all this

Cute how it frames it as an insincere rightist ab-use of document cobbled together by tax evaders.

Not a whif of half a century of lack of legal enshrinement that was begged for as the court teeted over, although it was promised and repeatedly fundraised on (a huge reported spike in democratic party donations after the draft was leaked and Biden promised legal changes).

Interesting if they're actually going to do anything to protect the other rulings grounded in due process, currently they're happy to claim "abortion is a unique act" but one is inclined to believe that about as much as their claims that Roe was 'settled law', particularly with the very profitable fund-scaring the dems can wring out of it, and the insane-contingent cheers the reps can win from quashing them.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Astronaut Omens on June 29, 2022, 05:02:47 PMThere's been a mistake and some kind of heavy vehicle is speeding down train tracks towards a place where 10 workers are on the track. If you do nothing all 10 workers will be killed.
You can save them by pulling a lever which will divert the train onto another track. On this track there's 1 person working. That worker will be killed if you pull the lever.

What's the right thing to do and why? What's wrong with doing nothing? Do you have a duty to pull the lever? If you pull the lever does that make you more responsible for the 1 workers death than it would be if you just let the 10 workers die?

It's a series of debates around that abstract situation and others like it intended to help people express what they believe about intervening and not-intervening in life and death situations, and about the life of 1 versus the life of many.

Thanks. Turns out I have heard of this problem. I'd forgotten that this kind of vehicle is an example of a trolley:



The trolley problem I'm more familiar with is the problem of balancing while putting my underwear on in the morning.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Blumf on June 29, 2022, 06:58:15 PMHummm... similarly you could make a 'slippery slope' argument that reducing a person's bodily autonomy in the case of pregnancy would eventually lead to forced organ harvesting for the greater good (I know there's been some philosophers who've put that kind of reasoning to the test, similar to the trolley problem™)

Could somebody whip that half formed thought into a cogent argument and test it on some right wing religious nut jobs please.

I was wondering about this when I was reading the violinist thing, which is needlessly convoluted and contrived. Surely, it's a much more straightforward argument to suggest that if we don't have bodily autonomy, then it's the moral thing to compel people to give up that second kidney they don't really need to save the life of a child on dialysis.

steve98

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 30, 2022, 07:09:40 AM

The trolley problem I'm more familiar with is the problem of balancing while putting my underwear on in the morning.

Do you know what part of a train (Or trolley on rails) is always moving in the opposite direction to the direction of travel? (I'll let you think about it.)

idunnosomename

Quote from: flotemysost on June 29, 2022, 09:10:06 PMNot sure it's been mentioned yet, but Dominic Raab has suggested that UK abortion rights will not be enshrined in law in the new British Bill of Rights.

Not really a shocker, tbh.
wish someone would abort dominic raab and flush his body down the toilet

Ferris

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on June 30, 2022, 02:23:52 AMCute how it frames it as an insincere rightist ab-use of document cobbled together by tax evaders.

Not a whif of half a century of lack of legal enshrinement that was begged for as the court teeted over, although it was promised and repeatedly fundraised on (a huge reported spike in democratic party donations after the draft was leaked and Biden promised legal changes).

They sort of touch on it - the democrats didn't think it would actually be abolished until it was because they're laughably out of touch and assume everyone is going to respect "tradition" for absolutely no reason. I'd hate that to be the only barrier between the GOP and my rights.

See also: not abolishing the senate's filibuster rules to get shit done. The democrats won't do it because it's not bipartisan and against tradition. Republicans will do it day one that it becomes an option.

Re: enshrining abortion in federal law, I don't think that's an option now is it? The judicial branch has explicitly said it's not a right so surely it would be struck down and *nudge nudge wink wink* "returned to the states" the second it was challenged.

Zero Gravitas

Quote from: Ferris on June 30, 2022, 11:05:30 AMRe: enshrining abortion in federal law, I don't think that's an option now is it? The judicial branch has explicitly said it's not a right so surely it would be struck down and *nudge nudge wink wink* "returned to the states" the second it was challenged.

Now, no, but in more balanced times a prohibition against state governments preventing access to medical care, and preventing them from requiring medically unnecessary steps to obtain medical care, would have been  effective against the tick tock tactics of recent years.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: steve98 on June 30, 2022, 09:31:00 AMDo you know what part of a train (Or trolley on rails) is always moving in the opposite direction to the direction of travel?

I don't. I have a feeling it depends very much on your interpretation of the phrase 'direction of travel', though.

Quote(I'll let you think about it.)

Thanks.

Ferris

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on June 30, 2022, 11:36:05 AMNow, no, but in more balanced times a prohibition against state governments preventing access to medical care, and preventing them from requiring medically unnecessary steps to obtain medical care, would have been  effective against the tick tock tactics of recent years.

I suppose the other thing is that the legislative branch of government is slow to react to anything.

When the judicial branch of gov can change overnight comparatively (3 new justices in a few years), it is far more nimble and can outmaneuver everyone else before Congress has time to even assess the threats.

Example: they should be nailing down election law now. They will regret the fact that they didn't, but they're so fucking slow that proactive legislation is beyond them.

Kankurette

For some reason, Spotify thought that looking for a Missy Elliott song meant I wanted to listen to a podcast called 'cancel me' which, as you can guess, is run by a Republican who's also antivaxx, antigay, anti-mask and...you guessed it...a forced-birther. I looked at it to see if it was as awful as its name suggests and...well, here's his bio (note the irony of quoting Martin Luther King):
QuoteI just graduated from college with a degree in Business and consider myself an Independent at the moment. When I was in my university I felt I was being indoctrinated, I was being put into identity boxes and told to fall in line, or face being excommunicated socially. Eventually, I had enough and had to start standing for diversity of thought, and common sense. I support FUNDING the police because I come from a military family, and I know the struggle of having my dad put his life on the line for our freedom. I support FREEDOM OF SPEECH and am against censorship because this is the United States of America, not China. I support border walls because I'm an immigrant and I know firsthand the struggles of immigrants coming here legally to provide a better life for their families, and a country with no walls is not a country. I support a limited government because I believe people should be able to make their own decisions which is why I'm against vaccine and mask mandates. I want our youth to be EDUCATED in the ranks of China and other developed nations, our youth due to lockdowns and activist teachers are being taught to hate themselves if they're white, and consider themselves oppressed if they're black. Inflation, gas prices, the border crisis, foreign policy failures, and crime are plaguing our nation due to horrible policies put into place by the Biden administration and radical District Attorneys all across the country. I know I'm not the only one waking up to all of this, there are many in my shoes who are afraid to speak out because they don't want to be canceled, and I will be a voice for them.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." –Martin Luther King, Jr.
The reason I mention this here is because his latest episode has the following blurb:
Quotetoday we will be discussing the unraveling of American society into a godless society of abortions and rainbow cults.
So basically, the government shouldn't be allowed to make people have vaccines or wear masks, but it should be allowed to prevent women from having abortions. It sums up the Libertarian mindset to a T. They don't want restrictions for themselves, but people they don't like can go hang. (Also, forced-birthers and antivaxxers have some overlap, which is pretty ironic considering that refusing to get vaccinated is arguably more dangerous than abortion, but then vaccines don't have the satisfaction of punishing the sluts.)

touchingcloth

QuoteI support FUNDING the police because I come from a military family

I wonder if he realises what that sounds like.

bgmnts

These turds always unironically quote that part of the MLK speech, it's amazing.

touchingcloth

Reagan wanted to use Born in the USA as his campaign song.

bgmnts

Quote from: touchingcloth on June 30, 2022, 09:15:06 PMReagan wanted to use Born in the USA as his campaign song.

I tell you what though if came out to it and did this:



To the bit where it said "go and kill the yellow man", I would have voted Reagan.