Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => General Bullshit => Topic started by: BlodwynPig on October 07, 2020, 06:42:38 PM

Title: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 07, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
for Buelligan.

Continue.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 07, 2020, 08:02:02 PM
To get the ball rolling I just want to reiterate my hope that Keir Starmer dies soon.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 07, 2020, 08:11:51 PM
To get the ball rolling I just want to reiterate my hope that Keir Starmer dies soon.

Finally something that unites us.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 07, 2020, 08:20:40 PM
To get the ball rolling I just want to reiterate my hope that Keir Starmer dies soon.

Unlikely, but he may be bereft of true friends as he is ideas.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 07, 2020, 08:23:02 PM
Unlikely, but he may be bereft of true friends as he is ideas.

I get the impression that won't bother him in any way.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 07, 2020, 10:00:53 PM
I was surprised given the competent adults are back in the room, ready and willing to calmly administer the next set of scything neoliberal reforms to the winnowed beleagured mixed economy of the UK, that they would send out a mail on behalf of the Labour Party that read, (sender and subject):

Keir Starmer
Holding Britain Back
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 07, 2020, 10:06:52 PM
I was surprised given the competent adults are back in the room, ready and willing to calmly administer the next set of scything neoliberal reforms to the winnowed beleagured mixed economy of the UK, that they would send out a mail on behalf of the Labour Party that read, (sender and subject):

Keir Starmer
Holding Britain Back

Got a screenshot?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 07, 2020, 10:08:49 PM
i hope his haircut becomes prime minster. common sense will prevail.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 07, 2020, 10:10:16 PM
i hope his haircut becomes prime minster. common sense will prevail.

I reckon he'd lose his powers if it turned out to be a syrup. It'd be like Milliband's sandwich.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 07, 2020, 10:19:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/iMtCp8h.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 07, 2020, 10:22:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/iMtCp8h.png)

ta!

A quick look and a handful of people are talking about it on twitter. Imagine of Crobbins or Abbott made this bungle? We'd not have heard the end of it for weeks... Russell Howard would do a bit and everything. Boils my piss.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 07, 2020, 11:05:21 PM
there isn't a "fuck off" button
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 07, 2020, 11:32:04 PM
Thanks hog.  Thog.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 07, 2020, 11:56:24 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/iMtCp8h.png)
I thought the first line (also often shown in preview UIs) added to it quite nicely:

"YOUR NAME, I've tried to be constructive..."
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 07, 2020, 11:58:29 PM
Also, it's clear it was written for England Labour, and Welsh Labour got to insert a few "So you should be grateful you live in Wales!" bits so it didn't seem completely nonsensical.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 08, 2020, 12:02:16 AM
i am listening to fairly obscure Thin Lizzy song "Fighting My Way Back" now and it's been ruined forever by me realising you can sing that shitty subject line to the refrain
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 08, 2020, 01:50:24 AM
Speaking of Abstaining:
(https://i.imgur.com/WPIH1et.png)

And it looks like people are taking Unite cutting their Labour contribution by 10% well:
(https://i.imgur.com/xTyy2tk.jpg)

and a thread of utter gronks being happy that this is happening, amazing stuff these people loving that a Union is stepping away from supporting THEIR PARTY:
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1313545269036879874 (https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1313545269036879874)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on October 08, 2020, 07:36:55 AM
Christ. That Mitch Ben tweet is one for the desolation thread.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 08, 2020, 08:23:24 AM
Mitch Benn is one of the desolation thread
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 08, 2020, 08:26:23 AM
Hi I am, according to this profile anyway, a musical current affairs 'satirist'. My dream is for David Miliband to impose austerity measures on the working class for a decade. Cheers
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on October 08, 2020, 08:39:18 AM
What is a "Little-Ponder"? Does Mitch Benn have a massive pond and he is critical of people who don't?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 08, 2020, 08:54:36 AM
Please, Miliband, put your willy in my hand
I'll cup your glans and we'll come to understand
That this is a land unlike Norway or Finland
Our economy's unplanned let's watch it now expand


Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 09:37:40 AM
Christ. That Mitch Ben tweet is one for the desolation thread.

In this thread https://twitter.com/NickKehoe01/status/1313727604302778368?s=20

Someone posted

Quote
Starmer has avoided being dragged into the 'culture war' cummings is desperate to ignite. He's shown johnson is unfit to govern. He faces a corrupt tory junta with an 80 seat majority. He's been in post for 6 months and has destroyed a 26% poll lead. Just what else do they want?

And I got called an 'arsehole' for replying 'wilfully ignoring their mismanagement of a pandemic is it 😂'
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 08, 2020, 09:40:00 AM
A fucking inanimate carbon rod could make this government look stupid in this pandemic. Surely we should be asking a little bit more
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 08, 2020, 10:07:00 AM
Mitch Benn is pretty deso because something happened with him as he completely dropped off the BBC doing his poor comedy songs on the Now Show to become a full-time horny centrist dad who cracks one off over EU Supergirl posing Brussels and hates trade unions for blocking David Milliband's premiership
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 10:19:28 AM
A fucking inanimate carbon rod could make this government look stupid in this pandemic. Surely we should be asking a little bit more

I replied with

Quote
He's level pegging with one of the worst, most incompetent governments failing to handle a pandemic. A potted plant could've 'destroyed' a lead in that scenario.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 08, 2020, 10:26:57 AM
from the old thread:

Ash Sarkar getting stick for saying she was "crucified" over her support of Corbyn. These cunts and useful idiots know no depths
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 08, 2020, 11:10:35 AM
Attenborough talks about capitalism and says greed doesn't lead to joy (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54268038).  Wise words.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 08, 2020, 11:44:42 AM
A Life On Our Planet is heart-wrenching. Here's a man in his early 90s who could have retired comfortably half a century ago agitating for change to improve a world that he won't see. Everyone should see it. It's absolutely stonking.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 08, 2020, 12:04:07 PM
I don't think it's available outside the UK is it?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 08, 2020, 12:10:54 PM
I don't think it's available outside the UK is it?

https://uk.pcmag.com/encryption/4328/the-best-free-vpns
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 08, 2020, 12:19:16 PM
I've thought about it, I must admit. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 08, 2020, 01:08:39 PM
A Life On Our Planet is heart-wrenching. Here's a man in his early 90s who could have retired comfortably half a century ago agitating for change to improve a world that he won't see. Everyone should see it. It's absolutely stonking.

He was responsible for several species being wiped off the Earth in his early days.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 08, 2020, 01:15:16 PM
Ben Stokes Conservation™ will direct 5% of donations to selected NGOs overseeing upskilling and placement enhancement projects for nominated low-income groups* in Malawi.

''This endeavour is a deeply personal one for me''

*Low income defined by Ben Stokes Conservation™ as earnings of between $35-70,000 per annum
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 08, 2020, 01:30:55 PM
Mitch Benn is pretty deso because something happened with him as he completely dropped off the BBC doing his poor comedy songs on the Now Show to become a full-time horny centrist dad who crack one off over EU Supergirl posing Brussels and hates trade unions for blocking David Milliband's premiership
The fucker never stops tweeting, either. I was looking for that union one, so I could call him a cunt voice my disagreement and there were hundreds of "hilarious" observations about that fly on Mike Pence's head.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 08, 2020, 02:49:58 PM
He was responsible for several species being wiped off the Earth in his early days.

Weren't we all
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 08, 2020, 03:18:38 PM
Weren't we all

I don't like him, I don't trust him, I don't know him.

Not in my name!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: AllisonSays on October 08, 2020, 04:11:20 PM
Have youse seen Angela Rayner's tweet about Clare Fox?

"I am absolutely disgusted that @BorisJohnson has stood by and let IRA apologist Claire Fox be elevated to the House of Lords. His failure to block her appointment is an insult to the victims of terrorist atrocities and people in Warrington and the NW.He should be ashamed."

Obviously Claire Fox is a dick, but I'm not sure about this line from Labour at all. She's apologised several times for (implicitly, unless I'm wrong) supporting the Revolutionary Communist Party's position on Northern Ireland. This seems like a transparent attempt to distance themselves from the Corbyn leadership; a transparently unconvincing attempt to turn the old Tory attack on Corbyn back onto the Tories; and a further instance of the conflict in NI and its legacies only being of interest to the British parties when they can use it as a means to take wee digs at one another. It's infuriating, but it also seems like bad triangulation or strategising, a dual tendency which seems to characterise Starmer's time leading the party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 08, 2020, 04:24:41 PM
Yep, it's grovelling awful shit. We can't lay all of this on Keith either. Who is his Cummings/Milne?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 08, 2020, 04:38:13 PM
What if this is the actual best we can do as a species, though? What if we have hit our peak of compassion, equity and justice. Very little has fundamentally changed with humans in the past few thousand years has it, our instincts still rule us.

The idea that this is literally the best we can do - and we should do our best to deal with that - is a bit depressing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: AllisonSays on October 08, 2020, 04:53:17 PM
No harm to Angela Rayner but I don't think she's humanities' peak of compassion, equity and justice. Maybe she's Stockport's peak of compassion, equity and justice, but I wouldn't even bet on that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 08, 2020, 04:55:18 PM
Yeah but she probably is, as a human.

We've stood on the precipice for decades and nothing really has changed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 08, 2020, 06:10:50 PM
Make sure you vote in Zands' world cup of sensible centrist comedians on twitter. (https://twitter.com/DrRobertZands/status/1313976037731176448)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 06:21:30 PM
Yep, it's grovelling awful shit. We can't lay all of this on Keith either. Who is his Cummings/Milne?

Claire Ainsley is his strategist, the one behind this 'new working class' guff, rebuilding trust by espousing 'british values' and not having any tangible policies.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 08, 2020, 07:25:03 PM
Make sure you vote in Zands' world cup of sensible centrist comedians on twitter. (https://twitter.com/DrRobertZands/status/1313976037731176448)

fuck me
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 07:50:06 PM
Make sure you vote in Zands' world cup of sensible centrist comedians on twitter. (https://twitter.com/DrRobertZands/status/1313976037731176448)

I nominated iannucci on that right out the gate.

(https://i.imgur.com/IoSz5g1.png)

Not sure boyle deserves to be in there, even if seeing him dunk on Corbyn about antisemitism then get that prick Baddiel on after.

Baddiel and Schneider in the same group is a tough choice.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 08, 2020, 07:55:33 PM
I nominated iannucci on that right out the gate.

(https://i.imgur.com/IoSz5g1.png)

Not sure boyle deserves to be in there, even if seeing him dunk on Corbyn about antisemitism then get that prick Baddiel on after.

He's edgy enough to talk about the Queen having herpes or something, but not edgy enough to support Corbyn against fascism. I think he can probably go fuck himself.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 07:57:19 PM
He's edgy enough to talk about the Queen having herpes or something, but not edgy enough to support Corbyn against fascism. I think he can probably go fuck himself.

I got the impression that when speaking as himself (on twitter etc) he did support, or at least tacitly support Corbyn. Less so on telly, which I guess makes him a hack more than anything. Maybe I'm being too charitable.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 08:05:32 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej0Sw3oXcAI8XxN?format=jpg&name=medium)

Looks like the only people who think he's doing an acceptable job of holding the gov't to account are people that would already vote for him.

These helmets are the ones that tell the left that they don't matter and he's focusing on winning people back aren't they?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 08, 2020, 08:09:22 PM
I'm afraid, Sebastian, that I am fast coming to the conclusion that all these people are cunts.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 08, 2020, 08:42:54 PM
I just found this. A glimpse of Britain under Corbyn Rule

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXB3ZiOsnw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXB3ZiOsnw)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: cosmic-hearse on October 08, 2020, 09:36:09 PM
I nominated iannucci on that right out the gate.

(https://i.imgur.com/IoSz5g1.png)

Not sure boyle deserves to be in there, even if seeing him dunk on Corbyn about antisemitism then get that prick Baddiel on after.

Baddiel and Schneider in the same group is a tough choice.

Group C, with David Baddiel, Mitch Benn, Eddie Izzard & David Schneider, is the Group Of Death
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 08, 2020, 11:31:06 PM
i fucking wish
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 08, 2020, 11:36:48 PM
lmao

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ejzf2sNWoAIzKjN?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 09, 2020, 12:30:15 AM
lmao
fuck me that's amazing. why is that so funny? it's the background. and the names. actual sore sides. it has come to this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 09, 2020, 12:52:36 AM
i actually voted for the genuine best comedian in each group, but judging by Ayesha Hazarika's lead most people are voting for the biggest melt
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 09, 2020, 01:12:42 AM
I've thought about it, I must admit.
Link here  (http://www.mediafire.com/file/y729ex3cox4gh5d/David.Attenborough.A.Life.On.Our.Planet.2020.720p.mp4/file)on mediafire if people want it, hopefully OK for you Buelligan
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 09, 2020, 01:14:29 AM
i actually voted for the genuine best comedian in each group, but judging by Ayesha Hazarika's lead most people are voting for the biggest melt

Are you supposed to do that? I voted for the biggest turncoat cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jamiefairlie on October 09, 2020, 03:36:47 AM
. Very little has fundamentally changed with humans in the past few thousand years has it, our instincts still rule us.
.

That's a bit of a stretch goal for evolution to be fair.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 09, 2020, 08:56:16 AM
Have youse seen Angela Rayner's tweet about Clare Fox?

"I am absolutely disgusted that @BorisJohnson has stood by and let IRA apologist Claire Fox be elevated to the House of Lords. His failure to block her appointment is an insult to the victims of terrorist atrocities and people in Warrington and the NW.He should be ashamed."

Obviously Claire Fox is a dick, but I'm not sure about this line from Labour at all. She's apologised several times for (implicitly, unless I'm wrong) supporting the Revolutionary Communist Party's position on Northern Ireland. This seems like a transparent attempt to distance themselves from the Corbyn leadership; a transparently unconvincing attempt to turn the old Tory attack on Corbyn back onto the Tories; and a further instance of the conflict in NI and its legacies only being of interest to the British parties when they can use it as a means to take wee digs at one another. It's infuriating, but it also seems like bad triangulation or strategising, a dual tendency which seems to characterise Starmer's time leading the party.

Just seen this. It's going to be a race to the bottom where they try and fail to out-Tory the Tories on cheap digs innit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 09, 2020, 09:25:03 AM
Can't wait til Keir Starmer has a pop at Priti Patel for virtue signalling in the commons, absolute scenes.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 09, 2020, 11:46:36 AM
I think part of the problem is that the properties that are required to be a successful politician aren't necessarily the same ones for being a caring, empathic human being. In fact some are mutually exclusive. Just look at Corbyn. He is clearly a caring, compassionate man, and that was part of what stopped him playing the political game to curry favour when he was the leader. He could have blanded out the message in order to get elected but he valued honesty over spin
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 09, 2020, 12:09:59 PM
Rayner's point might have made sense when Johnson accused Starmer of being a Remainer IRA sympathiser in PMQs weeks ago but now its dispiriting.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 09, 2020, 12:12:22 PM
I think part of the problem is that the properties that are required to be a successful politician aren't necessarily the same ones for being a caring, empathic human being. In fact some are mutually exclusive. Just look at Corbyn. He is clearly a caring, compassionate man, and that was part of what stopped him playing the political game to curry favour when he was the leader. He could have blanded out the message in order to get elected but he valued honesty over spin

This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy I reckon. Centrists often use it to justify politicians being morally bankrupt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 09, 2020, 12:32:52 PM
I think part of the problem is that the properties that are required to be a successful politician aren't necessarily the same ones for being a caring, empathic human being. In fact some are mutually exclusive. Just look at Corbyn. He is clearly a caring, compassionate man, and that was part of what stopped him playing the political game to curry favour when he was the leader. He could have blanded out the message in order to get elected but he valued honesty over spin

I disagree. His honesty was what made him stand out. People don't want more of that centrist crap that has failed us. Unfortunately, the only political force with any power that have realised this is the right and they are exploiting the hell out of it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 09, 2020, 12:56:36 PM
Absolutely true, IMO, on both counts.  The right are stoking up a culture war and the centrists are saying let's do beige to catch the imagination and interest of the people, you'd think they were stupid if you couldn't see the agenda.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 09, 2020, 09:00:20 PM
This is good.

https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1314618895865647104?s=20
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 09, 2020, 09:31:16 PM
But no pancreas, no, it is because he is Clever Man With Plan, not like the failure of opposition when Corbyn concertedly opposed every bad idea the government had and inflicted the most commons defeats on any sitting government.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 09, 2020, 09:47:59 PM
This is good.

https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1314618895865647104?s=20

She's a great bunch of lads isn't she?

Sad to see the drubbing she got over a bit of what looked on the face of it quite necessary and justifiable online-panhandling.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 10, 2020, 12:19:50 AM
She's a great bunch of lads isn't she?

Sad to see the drubbing she got over a bit of what looked on the face of it quite necessary and justifiable online-panhandling.

She is. What drubbing?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 10, 2020, 08:09:26 AM
This is good.

https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1314618895865647104?s=20

In fairness, working man Keith is making a stand on the issue of pub closing times. Could we expect a cockney accent next?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 10, 2020, 12:44:53 PM
She is. What drubbing?

Stuff like this, I think there was a bit of a pile on at one point: https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1264792849905856512
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 10, 2020, 02:24:31 PM
In fairness, working man Keith is making a stand on the issue of pub closing times. Could we expect a cockney accent next?

This 'stand' is absurd anyway, half of England are going to end up with full pub closures soon and Sleepy Keith is bollocksing around with moral outrage about an hour, an imminent moot point.

Labour's strategy on covid is becoming completely inconsistent. It was easier when Keith just had to say 'We support the government'. They are trying to triangulate but when the pieces are in flux, this is close to impossible without being internally contradictory. Reopen schools, repeal 10pm pub closures, oh wait back to 100s of daily deaths, well done you spineless cretin.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 10, 2020, 02:29:23 PM
He's a useless melt. A gravestone in a suit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 10, 2020, 03:02:20 PM
He's a useless melt. A gravestone in a suit.

He and his ilk are the biggest danger to Britain at the present time and going forward...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 10, 2020, 03:09:54 PM
He and his ilk are the biggest danger to Britain at the present time and going forward...

Yep, tories gonna tory but he's a far greater obstacle to anything vaguely left-wing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 10, 2020, 03:47:25 PM
Stuff like this, I think there was a bit of a pile on at one point: https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1264792849905856512

Thanks. I got confused. I thought we were talking about Zarah Sultana, who is also a great bunch of lads.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 10, 2020, 03:52:21 PM
This 'stand' is absurd anyway, half of England are going to end up with full pub closures soon and Sleepy Keith is bollocksing around with moral outrage about an hour, an imminent moot point.

Especially since there's a pretty good compromise idea floating around which is to let pubs stay open late on the condition they only let people in up to 10pm.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 10, 2020, 06:29:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54492682

Disagree with the bloke in terms of Covid safety but Burnham is pretty comfortably outdoing Keith (and Khan) for 'leadership'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thursday on October 10, 2020, 07:26:20 PM
"Mayor of the Norf" Andy Burnham.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jamiefairlie on October 10, 2020, 08:22:52 PM
Especially since there's a pretty good compromise idea floating around which is to let pubs stay open late on the condition they only let people in up to 10pm.

Not a compromise though is it? That's just fiddling about on the periphery of the problem without addressing the core issue. The basic problem is that to curtail the spread of this we need everyone to be as socially responsible as possible and follow the rules, that is not compatible with drinking booze. Closing pubs is the least that should be done.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 10, 2020, 08:39:40 PM
And probably schools too. That they haven't done this, combined with the suicidally stupid "Eat out to help out" madness demostrates that the government are only interested in propagating this pandemic in a massive human eugenics experiment.

They're criminals. But their crimes will be paid for by us.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 10, 2020, 09:00:41 PM
And probably schools too. That they haven't done this, combined with the suicidally stupid "Eat out to help out" madness demostrates that the government are only interested in propagating this pandemic in a massive human eugenics experiment.

They're criminals. But their crimes will be paid for by us.

Ladies and Gentlemen, your next President of the United Kingdom, Mr. Suicidally stupid himself, Dishy, Rishi....Sunak!!!

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 10, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Not a compromise though is it? That's just fiddling about on the periphery of the problem without addressing the core issue. The basic problem is that to curtail the spread of this we need everyone to be as socially responsible as possible and follow the rules, that is not compatible with drinking booze. Closing pubs is the least that should be done.

I agree that a full lockdown is what is really needed but at least the entry only up until 10pm idea has some logic to it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 11, 2020, 12:11:15 AM
I agree that a full lockdown is what is really needed but at least the entry only up until 10pm idea has some logic to it.

Does it?

Peak times appear to be 6-9. It chops off the end of football, and seems to be a good way to make sure people go back to someone's house afterwards (especially in scotland where 'carry outs' are also shut at 10, so that's a deadline you don't want to miss and will ensure you don't, versus accidentally missing it and staying in the pub like I've done many a time).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 11, 2020, 12:12:23 AM
we need it but we can't afford it, because the tory cunts the Ayesha Hazarikas of the world got to ultimate power absolutely fucked everything. hooray.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 11, 2020, 01:05:26 AM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-11_0-54-0-png.189063/)

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2020/09/30/largest-covid-19-contact-tracing-study-date-finds-children-key-spread-evidence

no ifs, no buts

On another forum, me and a couple of other lefties had a several week argument over the fact the schools probably shouldn't be opening. With a couple of vocal centrists insisting that kids didn't spread it, or were affected by it in any way. When shutdowns happened they started performing mental gymnastics that it was spread outside schools, and children couldn't pass it between each other in schools, for some reason. We pointed out schools weren't just full of children, and the people teaching them were at risk, they didn't give a shit, the teachers were being 'difficult', of course so was RLB and it was good she was replaced.

Funnily enough, as things go from bad to worse there's a lot of 'I never said that' going on. The forum does have a slightly better search function than here so it's easier to 'this you?' people.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 11, 2020, 10:43:47 AM
Blodwyn's Razor

of course, everyone is an expert now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 11, 2020, 11:44:07 AM
It's not only the anti-maskers who are being over-simplistic about this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 11, 2020, 11:58:16 AM
It's not only the anti-maskers who are being over-simplistic about this.

I know which simpletons I'd trust.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 11, 2020, 02:23:15 PM
It's not only the anti-maskers who are being over-simplistic about this.
Not an overly hard call on which group to be more sympathetic to though is it
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 11, 2020, 02:25:35 PM
Takes as hot as Bootsy’s trousers.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 11, 2020, 05:33:32 PM
Since this has all polarised tediously like everything fucking else in the world right now, it's become impossible to have a grown-up discussion about acceptable levels of risk. And to risk bringing this back on topic, maybe that's what Keith should be doing instead of supporting the Tories' prioritisation of hospitality over healthcare and education.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 11, 2020, 06:46:09 PM
Since this has all polarised tediously like everything fucking else in the world right now, it's become impossible to have a grown-up discussion about acceptable levels of risk. And to risk bringing this back on topic, maybe that's what Keith should be doing instead of supporting the Tories' prioritisation of hospitality over healthcare and education.

What is an acceptable level of risk? serious question
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 11, 2020, 06:47:54 PM
I have finally realised what the left need to do. The answer's been around for about 30 years and I never understood what it meant. But now the right have their boogaloo movement, everything is clear...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oy7krobW78
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 11, 2020, 09:45:14 PM
Have we done 'Labour friends of concentration camps' yet?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-peer-concentration-camps-asylum-seekers-immigrants-admiral-lord-west-b966337.html
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 11, 2020, 10:08:59 PM
https://twitter.com/RPCorpIntl/status/1315388579632168960
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 11, 2020, 10:09:28 PM
Have we done 'Labour friends of concentration camps' yet?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-peer-concentration-camps-asylum-seekers-immigrants-admiral-lord-west-b966337.html

People who lost their shit over Crobbins looking at a mural and mispronouncing a nonce's name wrong are very quiet on this one.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 11, 2020, 10:11:09 PM
https://twitter.com/RPCorpIntl/status/1315388579632168960

lol was just coming here to post this.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkE0-qBWsAEw3Xd?format=jpg&name=large)


Truly an all-timer.

(for context, the guy in the quoted tweet is Felix Biederman, a Brooklyn-based podcaster and sometime writer best known for co-hosting Chapo Trap House.)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 11, 2020, 10:13:21 PM
Weetman's in there doing the same thing, lol.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 12, 2020, 09:10:44 AM
I think NEC ballots won't be emailed out until next week, so i'll repost this then, but just as a heads-up: the Grassroots Voice candidates are trying to get the most out of the new STV voting system for the NEC by getting people to vote according to which region you live in.

Type in your postcode here (https://futureweneed.com/preference/) and it will recommend an order to select them in.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 12, 2020, 10:29:08 AM
I think NEC ballots won't be emailed out until next week, so i'll repost this then, but just as a heads-up: the Grassroots Voice candidates are trying to get the most out of the new STV voting system for the NEC by getting people to vote according to which region you live in.

Type in your postcode here (https://futureweneed.com/preference/) and it will recommend an order to select them in.

Quote
Here's the Grassroots Voice ballot for Yorkshire and The Humber.

Please fill your ballot in as follows:

Nadia Jama
Laura Pidcock
Ann Henderson
Mish Rahman
Yasmine Dar
Gemma Bolton

I don't think we need to be putting Pidcock 2nd, she's pretty much assured of a place isn't she?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 12, 2020, 10:53:18 AM
I don't think we need to be putting Pidcock 2nd, she's pretty much assured of a place isn't she?

I think it's some combinatorics stuff, they all get a place on each position:

Quote
Preference Orders

Please find below a list of the regions we have allocated preference lists to, and the respective orders we recommend for each.

Northern and South West

  • Laura Pidcock
  • Ann Henderson
  • Mish Rahman
  • Gemma Bolton
  • Nadia Jama
  • Yasmine Dar

Scotland, Wales, and East

  • Ann Henderson
  • Nadia Jama
  • Yasmine Dar
  • Laura Pidcock
  • Gemma Bolton
  • Mish Rahman

Yorkshire & the Humber, East Midlands, West London

  • Nadia Jama
  • Laura Pidcock
  • Ann Henderson
  • Mish Rahman
  • Yasmine Dar
  • Gemma Bolton

North West, N Ireland, and International

  • Yasmine Dar
  • Gemma Bolton
  • Laura Pidcock
  • Nadia Jama
  • Ann Henderson
  • Mish Rahman

West Midlands, North & East London

  • Mish Rahman
  • Yasmine Dar
  • Gemma Bolton
  • Ann Henderson
  • Laura Pidcock
  • Nadia Jama

South East, South London

  • Gemma Bolton
  • Mish Rahman
  • Nadia Jama
  • Ann Henderson
  • Yasmine Dar
  • Laura Pidcock
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 12, 2020, 11:05:06 AM
I don't think we need to be putting Pidcock 2nd, she's pretty much assured of a place isn't she?

Not if everyone thinks as you do.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 12, 2020, 11:11:22 AM
I don't think we need to be putting Pidcock 2nd, she's pretty much assured of a place isn't she?

Not necessarily - it could depend on if people voting for her put her in their 1st or 2nd slot, or further down. The GV recommendations are to make sure all our 2nd, 3rd choices etc get maximised effectively so that the whole slate gets over the line.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 12, 2020, 11:16:46 AM
What is an acceptable level of risk? serious question

Indeed it is a serious question, although its value is primarily rhetorical, since any direct answer can only take the form "the level that society accepts". Whilst cute in the context of a philosophy essay, it has limited practical utility.

The basic issue is that even if we can quantify risk in terms of probabilities, the space of outcomes is multi-dimensional and there are tradeoffs where an action that decreases one risk may increase another. Therefore there is no unique optimum, unless you reduce to a single dimension. One way to do this is to weight the different risks and combine into a single number that you can then optimise (actuaries do this, and denominate in pounds). Alternatively you can throw away all but one of the dimensions and attempt to minimise that risk. This latter I think is what many people are guilty of in popular discourse. It also needs to be acknowledged that all actions (including no action) have some risk associated with them: therefore "zero" is not a credible answer to the question of what an acceptable risk level is (but what a rhetorical question seems loaded towards provoking),

To speak more specifically about the issue of schools being opened or closed. Opening has the risk of increasing community transmission and in school staff in particular being more exposed than they would otherwise be. Closing has the risk of adverse mental health consequences for children stuck at home with nothing to do (everything else that they would otherwise do being also closed) and widening inequality as the educational gap between rich and poor increases.

The question then is how you weight these outcomes. The difficulty is that there are many unknowns in both of them; and also because we have limited previous experience in dealing with this particular balancing act, we can't simply look to the past to provide some guide to the future. I think it is the latter that ultimately normalises risks within a community to the point where they become "acceptable".

One can look to numbers... in the 9 weeks that Scottish schools have been open, I believe there have been around 300 attested cases among primary kids (population ~390k) and about twice that number among secondary kids (population ~320k). If the infectious period is around 2 weeks in duration, that's about 60 live cases across the country's primary schools at any one time. The key questions then are (i) can you rapidly identify and isolate those cases to prevent secondary infections; and (ii) how many cases are there that we don't know about (e.g., asymptomatic infections) that might also put people at risk? I think (i) is in principle achievable, but the answer to (ii) is much murkier and needs to be taken into consideration.

Even less well understood is what the long-term impacts of a prolonged absence from school (and, importantly, other activities that serve to enrich children's lives) are. These may be less serious than the risk of death from covid, but there are potentially many more children who are exposed to this risk than those exposed to the life-threatening consequences of a covid infection. So how do you balance that?

The easy way out is to simply ignore one of the risks: apart from anything else it saves one from the moral dilemma of having to answer the question. But to do so is intellectual cowardice, in my view. I feel uneasy about weighting my child's long-term mental health and wellbeing over the life-chances of their teacher; and doubtless others who've arrived at the opposite weighting feel similarly. (Some don't seem to give a shit about children though: they can fuck off). It's a difficult problem.

As I've noted before, about the only pragmatic option is to approach things very cautiously: I would argue, with more caution than has actually been applied thus far. I still don't get the rush to reopen pubs, restaurants, cinemas, etc ahead of schools. I would have thought that reinstating routine medical appointments and (school) education would have been obvious things to prioritise above everything else. With a robust testing system in place in these areas, it ought to be possible (given the numbers quoted above) to maintain a reasonable level of control; at least it would become obvious if there was a problem and more caution is needed. A problem we have is that by reopening many things at the same time, it becomes harder to figure out where the increasing cases are coming from. Some will be coming from schools: but how much? We don't seem to know.

It's also worth noting that there aren't many other options on the table, at least for primary-age kids. One thing that became abundantly clear during lockdown is that Zoom-based educational or social activities do not work for this age group. They are literally stuck at home with nothing to do, and the effects of that escalate quite quickly. Purely anecdotal, but there does seem to have been quite a big (detrimental) change in behaviour at school this term: I do believe this is an issue.

Personally, I think the risks to life (both pupils and staff from covid) are broadly comparable with those of being involved in a car accident on the way to/from school. Since we have decades of experience of managing these risks (e.g., through road safety education, speed limits, crossing wardens etc) people seem to find them acceptably low. (The 1.4m people killed in road accidents worldwide each year might disagree though). If the hardcore indefinite-total-lockdown enthusiasts were being intellectually honest, they would also campaign for a complete ban on motorised transport. They should probably have disposed of their fridge following the Grenfell fire. Gas appliances and pressurised hot water systems should be given the time of day as well. Sex, too, is super-risky, as is childbirth. Dispensing with those would certainly solve all our problems in the fullness of time.

[Incidentally any further discussion, if you've not already lost the will to live, probably belongs in another thread as otherwise we might derail important NEC considerations]
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 12, 2020, 11:23:07 AM
I don't think we need to be putting Pidcock 2nd, she's pretty much assured of a place isn't she?

I think it's worth taking the advice given and not second guessing, as this is a make-or-break vote for the left of the party. I'm trusting that they know the best way to maximise the impact of these 6 candidates. If this all fucks up, as did the last vote for NEC, due to people not focussing their votes, then there's not going to be much reason to stay with Labour.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 12, 2020, 12:08:36 PM
Quote
hardcore indefinite-total-lockdown enthusiasts

Who are those, exactly? Even the most cautious accept that without concerted action internationally, a lockdown is simply delaying the inevitable.

If everyone globally was sensible we could have sorted this in 4-6 weeks in April and May with a UN mandated co-ordinated lockdown, isolating returning essential workers, managing that on an overlapping rota. It wouldn't have killed the virus out completely (civil disobedience, fecklessness, etc) but would have reduced transmission points to a number so low as to allow normal activity to resume in earnest. It looks like the virus was around as far back as September 2019, so it took 7 months until it took off. This time around we would be more vigilant too, and have better treatments and experience of managing it.

Right now, with complex regularly changing restrictions having limited effect, a balance isn't being reached and I have read zero persuasive arguments why we should ease up on restrictions, and very few persuasive arguments in defence of this, I believe, doomed effort to try and make covid, normal economic life and a functioning health service and education sector co-exist.

Even if you accept a level of deaths are tolerable/inevitable (as your argument suggests), there is still the collapse of the health service and education which will happen if the virus is unleashed. Co-ordinated 4-6 week global lockdown now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 12, 2020, 01:11:50 PM
Wait, what is the point of the Lib Dems now?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 12, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
Wait, what is the point of the Lib Dems now?

15p bag tax now!!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 12, 2020, 02:10:09 PM
Holy shit even a spineless floppy worm has more spine
(https://i.imgur.com/tT9s6GI.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 12, 2020, 02:15:51 PM
Keir-A-Knightly is driven overwhelmingly by fear above any form of conviction. A veritable weathercock.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 12, 2020, 02:19:22 PM
Holy shit even a spineless floppy worm has more spine
(https://i.imgur.com/tT9s6GI.png)

He reminds me of an overly serious law student acquaintance who wouldn't put a foot wrong for fear of it jeopardising their as yet, unattained law degree. Gaveuup smoking weed out of cautiousness as an undergrad, used to panic in their bar job as the landlord bent the rules. Total cleanshirt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 12, 2020, 02:19:33 PM
I'm sure the American electorate couldn't give a fuck what the Labour leader thinks at all, which is one reason not to give an endorsement, but Trump thrives off establishment politicians saying they don't like him so I can understand Starm's thinking here.

And no right minded person would think he would endorse Trump anyway.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 12, 2020, 02:24:05 PM
He is Aaron Burr in Hamilton.

Talk less, smile more.
Don't let them know what you're against or what you're for
You want to get ahead?
Fools who run their mouths off wind up dead
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 12, 2020, 02:25:49 PM
^^No right minded person would mistake him for a socialist either (but many mistakenly trusted his lies anyway).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 12, 2020, 02:42:47 PM
Personally, I think the risks to life (both pupils and staff from covid) are broadly comparable with those of being involved in a car accident on the way to/from school. Since we have decades of experience of managing these risks (e.g., through road safety education, speed limits, crossing wardens etc) people seem to find them acceptably low. (The 1.4m people killed in road accidents worldwide each year might disagree though). If the hardcore indefinite-total-lockdown enthusiasts were being intellectually honest, they would also campaign for a complete ban on motorised transport. They should probably have disposed of their fridge following the Grenfell fire. Gas appliances and pressurised hot water systems should be given the time of day as well. Sex, too, is super-risky, as is childbirth. Dispensing with those would certainly solve all our problems in the fullness of time.

People are terrible at assessing risk, so what they think about the risk of driving means very little regarding the risk of C19. In fact, their attitude to the risk of climate change suggests we should address the risks one by one rather than by comparing their attitudes towards other risks.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 12, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
Not if everyone thinks as you do.

But not everyone does, there will be lots of people who aren't focussed on getting all 6 of the left slate on to the NEC who will vote for Pidcock as she's relatively well-known. That's what I think anyway. You only need to look at the CLP noms to see how she's pretty far ahead of everyone else.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 12, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
Who are those, exactly? Even the most cautious accept that without concerted action internationally, a lockdown is simply delaying the inevitable.

If everyone globally was sensible we could have sorted this in 4-6 weeks in April and May with a UN mandated co-ordinated lockdown, isolating returning essential workers, managing that on an overlapping rota. It wouldn't have killed the virus out completely (civil disobedience, fecklessness, etc) but would have reduced transmission points to a number so low as to allow normal activity to resume in earnest. It looks like the virus was around as far back as September 2019, so it took 7 months until it took off. This time around we would be more vigilant too, and have better treatments and experience of managing it.

Right now, with complex regularly changing restrictions having limited effect, a balance isn't being reached and I have read zero persuasive arguments why we should ease up on restrictions, and very few persuasive arguments in defence of this, I believe, doomed effort to try and make covid, normal economic life and a functioning health service and education sector co-exist.

Even if you accept a level of deaths are tolerable/inevitable (as your argument suggests), there is still the collapse of the health service and education which will happen if the virus is unleashed. Co-ordinated 4-6 week global lockdown now.

"Co-ordinated 4-6 week global lockdown now has COVID-19 on the floor, COVID-19 looks done and dusted, but wait SINISTER MORE DEADLY VIRUS IS WAITING FOR THE TAP...HE'S COMING IN...HE'S COMING INNNNN!!! Referee Starmer is crouched close to the tap AND HE DID NOTHING...HE DID NUTHIN'"

(https://411mania.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Kurt-Angle-vs.-Shawn-Michaels-WrestleMania-21-645x370.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 12, 2020, 04:54:52 PM
Keir-A-Knightly is driven overwhelmingly by fear above any form of conviction. A veritable weathercock.

As soon the 2017 election result came in, Corbyn should have done everything possible to get open selection of MPs and full CLP recall through the NEC. Brexit would have acted as cover for some of the rancour that would have come from the PLP.

Look at the state of it, even now there are only 9% of the PLP with the guts to stand against the whip on basic humanitarian issues that should not, cannot be abstained on.

They were too afraid, but the Labour right fucked us over anyway even when we were playing nice. They knew it would happen, they knew they wouldn't go quietly and they knew a Brexit election ran the risk of wiping out Corbynism before it got started.

They get more sympathy as they were so under the cosh, but it, and lots of other strategy by at the top of Labour after 2017 has proven mistaken and costly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 12, 2020, 06:19:36 PM
People are terrible at assessing risk, so what they think about the risk of driving means very little regarding the risk of C19. In fact, their attitude to the risk of climate change suggests we should address the risks one by one rather than by comparing their attitudes towards other risks.

That’s true, and consistent with the broader point about “acceptable risk” being a rhetorical rather than a practical consideration in a complex situation. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 12, 2020, 06:42:47 PM
As soon the 2017 election result came in, Corbyn should have done everything possible to get open selection of MPs and full CLP recall through the NEC. Brexit would have acted as cover for some of the rancour that would have come from the PLP.

Look at the state of it, even now there are only 9% of the PLP with the guts to stand against the whip on basic humanitarian issues that should not, cannot be abstained on.

They were too afraid, but the Labour right fucked us over anyway even when we were playing nice. They knew it would happen, they knew they wouldn't go quietly and they knew a Brexit election ran the risk of wiping out Corbynism before it got started.

They get more sympathy as they were so under the cosh, but it, and lots of other strategy by at the top of Labour after 2017 has proven mistaken and costly.


I was really talking about now, but yes, Corbyn should have been tougher on these cunts.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 12, 2020, 06:44:28 PM
I was really talking about now, but yes, Corbyn should have been tougher on these cunts.

Hindsight is a horrible thing. Although some on here were calling for it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 12, 2020, 10:21:55 PM
wrong thread
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 12, 2020, 10:25:55 PM
If you were a hardcore gamer that liked gaming on a laptop and wanted to see all the latest games run on the highest settings then i'd say go for it. I could see how it really could make you happy.

But i suspect you are not that gamer Blodwyn. So what exactly is your motivation? Wonky buttons doesn't cut it mate, is it to impress the big boys at work?

Wrong thread, but i’ll bite. I do a lot of computationally heavy modelling that requires fairly high spec, not enough to justify top of the range. Previously i was a bioinformatician in the early days before cloud computing, so needed 32 GB memory and multiple cores.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 12, 2020, 10:26:47 PM
bite in the other thread mate
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 12, 2020, 10:53:39 PM
Forensic.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1315699279302922241
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 12, 2020, 10:56:44 PM
Just for Kelvin.

https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1315406169284980736?s=20

It genuinely brings me no joy. We sink deeper, is all.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 12, 2020, 10:58:38 PM
bite in the other thread mate

Oi, you started it
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 12, 2020, 11:11:32 PM
no, you did
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 13, 2020, 08:28:33 AM
no, you did

Vote Starmer
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 13, 2020, 08:48:40 AM
Just for Kelvin.

https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1315406169284980736?s=20

It genuinely brings me no joy. We sink deeper, is all.

Yeah, no excuses. It's pathetic and really quite sinister.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 13, 2020, 09:29:09 AM
Labour are to vote against the overseas operation bill if they fail to get amendments - but not the licence to kill bill, which should be waved through regardless.

https://labourlist.org/2020/10/exclusive-starmer-says-labour-should-not-vote-down-spycops-bill-even-if-unamended/?amp&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR2nRCmY32DE5FrLTKaShoZ4gSDaB7r3IRjPSsDL0LmX-4C8pkXhl_5MNVA

Quote
Critics said they had doubts over the argument that the bill would be tempered by the Human Rights Act as the Tories are “reviewing” it, and were worried about sex offences not being specifically prohibited in the bill.

Baroness Chakrabarti was “impressive” when speaking against the leadership position, one source said, and Labour peer John Hendy QC told the meeting: “As a lawyer, I just cannot accept that the state has prior approval to commit crimes.”

Other MPs expressed support for Starmer’s stance, including home affairs committee chair Yvette Cooper, intelligence and security committee (ISC) member Diana Johnson and frontbenchers who were not allowed to speak at the meeting.

Judith Cummins, MP for Bradford South, told LabourList: “Keir demonstrated that he can make really difficult decisions if he were Prime Minister. He was very clear, convincing and really showed his expertise beyond anyone else’s on the call.”

Shadow railways minister and Slough MP Tan Dhesi had planned to vote against the bill, but has said he was persuaded by Starmer tonight to abstain instead. Dhesi said he was “impressed” by the “detailed response” offered.

“I trust his experience, as well as the integrity with which he put the message across,” Dhesi told LabourList, concluding: “I’d rather have things on statute whereby the police or undercover agencies would be held to account by the ISC and lawmakers.”

It doesn't take much creativity to imagine the possible abuses, sexual, civil, and political. MI5 are working with an informant. They nod in the direction of an inconvenient agitator. The informant kills him. MI5 get to claim (to the oversight of internal authorities) that the crime was committed to preserve the informant's cover, in the service of national security.

You don't have to look very far back through history to see similar actions.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 13, 2020, 09:39:33 AM
One source said "I was impressed by the detail with which he justified the right of the state to murder citizens. It was very forensic." Fucking idiots.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 13, 2020, 09:57:32 AM
Worried about sex offences not being specifically prohibited.

OK with murder though.

Optimistically speaking, a lot of psychopaths are going to find themselves with new career opportunities.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 13, 2020, 05:42:22 PM
Hold the front page: Starmer has taken a position on something!

He's calling for a 2-3 week circuit break lockdown in England. Puts him on the same side as scientists and divides the Tories. It'll probably have to happen anyway so at least he can look ahead of the curve.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 13, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
Ah good, well then I take the opportunity to applaud him, he has done the right thing.

Maybe his phrase "No ifs, no buts" is still reverberating internally.

I assume the feedback from his EDL focus groups came back positive for the idea.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 13, 2020, 06:35:43 PM
Ah good, well then I take the opportunity to applaud him, he has done the right thing.

Maybe his phrase "No ifs, no buts" is still reverberating internally.

I assume the feedback from his EDL focus groups came back positive for the idea.

ALL IS FORGIVEN.

Fuck that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 13, 2020, 09:51:26 PM
Felt like a bit of an open goal, but yeah sensible move for once.

I've emailed my (abstainer) MP telling him to amend the fuck out of Spy Cops or vote to send it fucking packing.

I fully anticipate a reply in six weeks retrospectively justifying why he voted for the unamended legislation.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 13, 2020, 10:22:11 PM
Hold the front page: Starmer has taken a position on something!

He's calling for a 2-3 week circuit break lockdown in England. Puts him on the same side as scientists and divides the Tories. It'll probably have to happen anyway so at least he can look ahead of the curve.

On the same side as the scientists, just 3 weeks later.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 13, 2020, 11:11:31 PM
On the same side as the scientists, just 3 weeks later.

TBF the SAGE minutes were only published a day or two ago.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 08:12:32 AM
TBF the SAGE minutes were only published a day or two ago.

I think he knew the advice. He could have sought his own advice and led the debate as well.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 14, 2020, 08:28:50 AM
Or used common sense, which have been of better use back when he was pushing for schools to reopen (now clearly seen as the danger it so obviously would become; children being the worst [silent] kind of spreader of covid-19) and sacking RLB so they could replace her with somebody to "get tough" on the teachers' union. They could have asked me and my best guess (based on what we know about how covid-19 spreads) would have been better than what has been allowed to unfold.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 12:44:55 PM
Anyone still got the gif of this by any chance?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQpfBReXYAANy01.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 14, 2020, 12:59:44 PM
Now THAT'S what politics ought to be. True affection between proper people. Tear to eye. Boner to pants.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
Two cheeks of the same arse.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 14, 2020, 03:51:49 PM
Just got an email from Keith telling me to get on twitter and facebook to tell everyone to pressure the government about a lockdown. Clearly rushing all the kids back to school and "getting the country back to work", as he directly urged the government to do, isn't working out so well.

This "circuit breaker" bollocks is not going to help either; lockdown needs to be maintained until we no longer need one, otherwise it will surge back or at best pave the way for the third wave. These people are truly stupid.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 04:14:23 PM
Just got an email from Keith telling me to get on twitter and facebook to tell everyone to pressure the government about a lockdown. Clearly rushing all the kids back to school and "getting the country back to work", as he directly urged the government to do, isn't working out so well.

This "circuit breaker" bollocks is not going to help either; lockdown needs to be maintained until we no longer need one, otherwise it will surge back or at best pave the way for the third wave. These people are truly stupid.

close all threads, this post sums it up perfectly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 14, 2020, 04:46:09 PM
Just got an email from Keith telling me to get on twitter and facebook to tell everyone to pressure the government about a lockdown. Clearly rushing all the kids back to school and "getting the country back to work", as he directly urged the government to do, isn't working out so well.

This "circuit breaker" bollocks is not going to help either; lockdown needs to be maintained until we no longer need one, otherwise it will surge back or at best pave the way for the third wave. These people are truly stupid.

He's not even reversed his position on schools, which are clearly the biggest factor in the recent rise. He's suggesting the "break" happens over half term, so he's not even trying to prevent the most obvious opportunity for spread.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 05:17:50 PM
Another staffer has quit over Duffield being a terf. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/10/14/rosie-duffield-mp-labour-transphobia-row-staffer-quits-resignation-canterbury/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bazooka on October 14, 2020, 06:31:07 PM
Just nipping out for a massive circuit breaker,back in 10.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 07:15:11 PM
Just nipping out for a massive circuit breaker,back in 10.

disease. part of the problem. traitor.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 07:24:37 PM
He's not even reversed his position on schools, which are clearly the biggest factor in the recent rise. He's suggesting the "break" happens over half term, so he's not even trying to prevent the most obvious opportunity for spread.

He wanted children back in school "no ifs, no buts".

Well done for painting himself in to that corner, the master strategist. Adults back in the room.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 14, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1316443729452990464

Quote
Labour has appointed a former aide to Tony Blair, Nita Clarke, to look at the "culture of the party" and help build "election winning organisation"

Clarke was no fan of Corbyn or Brexit, saying it was "morally bankrupt" to back him for PM/imploring JK Rowling to set up new party

Fucking hell. Read another book, for fuck's sake.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
The exact quote was

"Kids. Get them back to school and down the mines. No IFS, No BUTS. If I U-turn on this, strip me, wrap me in nettles and chuck me in a mini-wicker man, to be burned on New Year's Eve".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 14, 2020, 07:29:09 PM
I doubt that he said the last bit (actually giving directions). Might affect his electability in the new year.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
Re: the statement on another Blairite appointment

When they talk about winning in 2024 are they actually serious? Have they seen the size of the swing that will be required? Even if we win 80 seats that won't do it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkT1yVBX0AANLIv?format=png&name=small)

'culture of the party' eh.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 14, 2020, 08:13:49 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkT-M4WWsAEJNOA?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 08:17:14 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkT-M4WWsAEJNOA?format=jpg&name=small)

I wonder what she makes of these abstentions.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkT5T_KX0AAVkuC?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 14, 2020, 08:19:49 PM
Re: the statement on another Blairite appointment

When they talk about winning in 2024 are they actually serious? Have they seen the size of the swing that will be required? Even if we win 80 seats that won't do it.

And the election will be fixed in a hundred obvious ways.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 08:33:03 PM
Nita Clarke's appointment, more evidence we've been mugged.

'Wait and see' say people being proven wrong with dramatic speed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 14, 2020, 08:38:21 PM
Yep.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkUBaALXsAYdNvD?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 08:39:41 PM
Nita Clarke's appointment, more evidence we've been mugged.

'Wait and see' say people being proven wrong with dramatic speed.

Blodwyn's Razor was never dulled in this regard.

"I'm calling upon..." etc etc. (ok, you'll retort with some sophistry).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 08:52:40 PM
Journey back to electorability says faction responsible for

2005 - 35.2%
2010 - 29.1%
2015 - 30.4%

For comparison:

2017 - 40%
2019 - 32.3%
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 14, 2020, 08:58:03 PM
Think this is the most despondent I've felt, politically. Even worse then the last election. Just cunts everywhere. I finished the Owen Jones book about the Corbyn years today and it's one of the most depressing things I've ever read. Even the first half ("Rise"), whilst giving me goose bumps also brought me very close to tears when I knew how such a decent man and that powerful, glorious feeling of hope were utterly fucked over by cunts and shitty circumstances. I hate continually looking back but it's not like there's anything to look forward to.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 09:11:17 PM
Often enormous crises force a new political reality upon those who  would not otherwise have accepted the need, ideologically or practically.

We have to fight tooth and nail for NEC representation, otherwise find leftwing but ostensibly cross-party causes to back like the environment, universal basic income, even something like assisted dying (not the DWP kind). The left need a trojan horse/wedge issue they can use. They also need a leader.

Sultana?

Either way, if there is even a hint of a charismatic left leader emerging I reckon the left have a narrow chance of toppling Starmer. Realistically we will probably wait til 2024 and find Starmer has done just enough to stay in the job.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 14, 2020, 09:22:22 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkUGaN_XkAEEF6-?format=png&name=small)

cooool
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 14, 2020, 09:33:28 PM
Ah, she's part of the Benn dynasty.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 09:44:25 PM
It gets worse. Zionist cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 14, 2020, 09:58:06 PM
It gets worse. Zionist cunt.

They all are these days.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 14, 2020, 10:02:27 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkUGaN_XkAEEF6-?format=png&name=small)

Just as well energy and transport policy don't relate to anything important like climate change. Or poor people stuck at home freezing to death. What is a priority? Keeping Rule Britannia?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 14, 2020, 10:13:03 PM
Oh look, a Duffield fan too.

https://twitter.com/simonk_133/status/1316447398047211521
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 14, 2020, 10:13:12 PM
there's no way hiring twitter nutcases is going to backfire...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pinball on October 14, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
Worst cohort of politicians (both main parties) for over a century? And here we are.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 14, 2020, 11:02:44 PM
Attacking Nandy from the right. My word.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkUiOv5XcAAPICs?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 14, 2020, 11:04:34 PM
The only person I previously knew who still responds to Iraq and geopolitics with 'So youd rather bad man was in' was John McTernan.

So Keir Starmer has hired someone on the extreme end of Blairism as his advisor.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 14, 2020, 11:07:50 PM
Saddam Hussein or his descendants? Were Iraqi presidencies like monarchies?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 14, 2020, 11:15:13 PM
I was chatting to a Portuguese man and a Sri Lankan today about UK politics, both, independently, said Britain is fucking itself and is run by idiots.

Think this is the most despondent I've felt, politically. Even worse then the last election. Just cunts everywhere. I finished the Owen Jones book about the Corbyn years today and it's one of the most depressing things I've ever read. Even the first half ("Rise"), whilst giving me goose bumps also brought me very close to tears when I knew how such a decent man and that powerful, glorious feeling of hope were utterly fucked over by cunts and shitty circumstances. I hate continually looking back but it's not like there's anything to look forward to.

I feel similar but the pain of watching Britain publicly ruining itself is galvanising the intention in me to never, ever, soft pedal again.  Not that I have that much but I'm determined, in any future that may still happen not to let these cunts, any cunts, have so much as a toe-hold and not to tolerate anyone who will.  Not even for a second.

I also think about that parallel universe where we stood by Corbyn and purged the Party.  Sometimes I go there, just for a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on October 14, 2020, 11:28:10 PM
The only person I previously knew who still responds to Iraq and geopolitics with 'So youd rather bad man was in' was John McTernan.

So Keir Starmer has hired someone on the extreme end of Blairism as his advisor.

She’s another of these who make you wonder why they ever joined the Labour Party to begin with. Unless it genuinely was an attempt to infiltrate and destroy from within? They seem to have no ideals, no opinions beyond how it will play to Sun and Mail readers, as if they’ll ever vote Labour. I always wonder what they would say if you asked them to describe their ideal society? If they could pass any pet policies through with no opposition, what hypothetically, would they be? All I can ever imagine them saying is, “basically the same as now, but forever”. That thing above about how now is not the time to be thinking about nationalising key industries, etc, just sums it up. Things like that are not seen as part of the solution, but needless distractions that could and should only ever be thought of as little bonuses, whilst retaining the status quo. No imagination, or ideology whatsoever. And our glorious leader is bringing people like this in as advisors? We are well and truly fucked, aren’t we?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 14, 2020, 11:35:13 PM
She’s another of these who make you wonder why they ever joined the Labour Party to begin with. Unless it genuinely was an attempt to infiltrate and destroy from within? They seem to have no ideals, no opinions beyond how it will play to Sun and Mail readers, as if they’ll ever vote Labour. I always wonder what they would say if you asked them to describe their ideal society? If they could pass any pet policies through with no opposition, what hypothetically, would they be? All I can ever imagine them saying is, “basically the same as now, but forever”. That thing above about how now is not the time to be thinking about nationalising key industries, etc, just sums it up. Things like that are not seen as part of the solution, but needless distractions that could and should only ever be thought of as little bonuses, whilst retaining the status quo. No imagination, or ideology whatsoever. And our glorious leader is bringing people like this in as advisors? We are well and truly fucked, aren’t we?

Ask yourself what moral imperative or urge to do good compels people to take jobs with KPMG or Edelman UK.  None.  There are people who see a career in politics as a stepping stone to power and nothing else, some but not all, of them join the Tories.

Yes, fucked.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 14, 2020, 11:48:09 PM
That's a good point SC. They hide behind the 'you can't do lefty stuff like that, the public won't accept it, we're just being practical and dealing with the hand we've been dealt' argument but really they don't actually want to do anything to change things.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a convenient excuse to carry on with the same old middle-of-the-road policies, mindset and ideas that simply delay the inevitable for slightly longer than The Tories' breakneck toboggan ride to oblivion.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 14, 2020, 11:52:37 PM
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8917321.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/labour-membership-card.jpg)

Wonder what "democratic socialist" policies she supports.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 14, 2020, 11:55:00 PM
Duffield should be writing for the daily mail, not being MP for canterbury. anyway, she's got a whole student population who utterly despise her, it wont end well for her
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 15, 2020, 01:24:11 AM
Len micturates on the moralising foetus. (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/10/len-mccluskey-i-had-high-hopes-owen-jones-s-book-corbynism-i-was-disappointed)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 15, 2020, 08:54:50 AM
Jonathan Cook has been airing his (longtime) problem with both Jones & Monbiot recently (worth reading):

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2020-10-10/criticising-monbiot-isnt-demonisation-its-a-first-step-on-the-path-to-reclaiming-our-minds/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 15, 2020, 09:25:44 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJpKJ67R/Undone.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 15, 2020, 09:33:03 AM
The adults are back in charge!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on October 15, 2020, 09:36:10 AM
When are the NEC ballots being sent out? Ta.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 15, 2020, 09:36:40 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJpKJ67R/Undone.jpg)

"Corbyn or Brexit"

Subtle positioning there.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 15, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
Len micturates on the moralising foetus. (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/10/len-mccluskey-i-had-high-hopes-owen-jones-s-book-corbynism-i-was-disappointed)

I'm reading This Land at the moment. I'm finding it useful and insightful - the chapter on Brexit in particular lays out with great clarity the competing factions within Labour, and the complicated impact they had.

Reading it, I don't think Jones is excessively harsh on Corbyn. Corbyn's flaws are picked over, yes (I didn't know he was so prone to going AWOL), but there are many earnest words from his supporters and friends, and there's an undercurrent sense throughout of the battles McCluskey is talking about. Indeed, they are detailed early in the book - from the actions of bad faith MPs to the sabotage of staffers at Labour HQ.

In the chapter on antisemitism, it does feel as though Jones wishes he could reach back in time and clip Corbyn round the ear for making some poor decisions (decisions that people like McDonnell were trying to discourage at the time, to no avail), but the chapter on Brexit is clearly sympathetic toward Corbyn's impossible position. And the former explores Corbyn's personal 'heartbreak' at being branded a racist despite his life of anti-racist campaigning. Len says Jones demonstrates 'no empathy', but it's not true.

Len also praises Stephen Bush's review of the book (https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/09/why-corbynism-failed) - but Bush is arguably harsher on Corbyn in his conclusions than Jones.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 10:16:26 AM
The adults are back in charge!

They'll spin this as 'listening', but the fact is they could've searched twitter rather than leaving it to people on twitter, if Corbyn flopped they'd be saying it's a shambles, of course.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 15, 2020, 10:58:02 AM
The Simply Marvellous and Sensible J.K. Rowling Party
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 15, 2020, 11:45:28 AM
That's a good point SC. They hide behind the 'you can't do lefty stuff like that, the public won't accept it, we're just being practical and dealing with the hand we've been dealt' argument but really they don't actually want to do anything to change things.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a convenient excuse to carry on with the same old middle-of-the-road policies, mindset and ideas that simply delay the inevitable for slightly longer than The Tories' breakneck toboggan ride to oblivion.

The thing is a lot of the policies in the last manifesto are not super-lefty and proved quite popular. They may have pushed their luck with the private schools thing and a couple of other ideas but generally they could have been sold to the public. Even more so now a pandemic has shown that everyone is a secret socialist when the shit hits the fan
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 15, 2020, 11:49:26 AM
I'm reading This Land at the moment. I'm finding it useful and insightful - the chapter on Brexit in particular lays out with great clarity the competing factions within Labour, and the complicated impact they had.

Reading it, I don't think Jones is excessively harsh on Corbyn. Corbyn's flaws are picked over, yes (I didn't know he was so prone to going AWOL), but there are many earnest words from his supporters and friends, and there's an undercurrent sense throughout of the battles McCluskey is talking about. Indeed, they are detailed early in the book - from the actions of bad faith MPs to the sabotage of staffers at Labour HQ.

In the chapter on antisemitism, it does feel as though Jones wishes he could reach back in time and clip Corbyn round the ear for making some poor decisions (decisions that people like McDonnell were trying to discourage at the time, to no avail), but the chapter on Brexit is clearly sympathetic toward Corbyn's impossible position. And the former explores Corbyn's personal 'heartbreak' at being branded a racist despite his life of anti-racist campaigning. Len says Jones demonstrates 'no empathy', but it's not true.

Len also praises Stephen Bush's review of the book (https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/09/why-corbynism-failed) - but Bush is arguably harsher on Corbyn in his conclusions than Jones.

I finished it yesterday and thought it was pretty good although that Left Out one was better. I thought you could tell he didn't like Milne at alland idolised Andrew Fisher, and Left Out has a far more balanced view of the two of them. There are some awful lines in it - that one about the Upside Down was terrible - but the jam anecdote more than made up for it.

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120203086_3365293640230791_2132930189839143848_o.png?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=XimIvbusSZUAX8fglnk&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=33990fe48be2e2028eb3cabd9098b717&oe=5FAC4248)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 15, 2020, 12:25:34 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill)

Wow. Principles. Remember them?

Quote
One ally of Carden suggested there could be more resignations in the days ahead over Labour’s stance on the bill, which has heightened fears on the left of the party that Starmer will not defend civil liberties robustly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 15, 2020, 12:29:46 PM
There are some awful lines in it - that one about the Upside Down was terrible - but the jam anecdote more than made up for it.

I was amused by how much extraneous information Owen provided when he used pop culture analogies like that. He references Black Mirror: Bandersnatch as a comparison at one point, which is fine (basically saying 'Brexit would've turn out badly whatever choices were made'), but for some reason he makes sure to give us the full name of the episode's main character.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 15, 2020, 12:33:10 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill)

Wow. Principles. Remember them?


I applaud his decision.  Absolutely.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Mantle Retractor on October 15, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
Seems like one of the few good ones.

Fantastic speech yesterday on Tory cronyism and profiteering:

https://twitter.com/DanCardenMP/status/1316450525114753024 (https://twitter.com/DanCardenMP/status/1316450525114753024)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 15, 2020, 12:45:25 PM
Excellent stuff. Or y'know, far-left marxist anti-semitic agitation.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: peanutbutter on October 15, 2020, 01:01:50 PM
Duffield should be writing for the daily mail, not being MP for canterbury. anyway, she's got a whole student population who utterly despise her, it wont end well for her
I’d say Duffield decided she wasn’t going to seek re-election in 2024 some time last November. She was possibly hoping she’d lose her seat this time around even. The second the election ended she became full on insufferable and has been endlessly doubling down since.

She used the enthusiasm of a minority of voters in the area to win a seat Labour shouldn’t be bothering their arses with. When she opts to not run again in 2024 labour should leave that one to the lib dems if the alternative is pooling a ton of resources to deal with someone like her within the PLP.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 15, 2020, 01:14:17 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill)

Wow. Principles. Remember them?

This is a despicable piece of shit bill that Tony Blair's wildest authoritarian fantasies couldn't have conceived.

A clear opportunity for Starmer to have made cheap appeasement to the left at no political loss by directing we oppose it, but instead could barely have sent a stronger signal that we on the left can all get fucked, including apparently, parts of his own cabinet.

I have gone from thinking he won't be as left wing as he is making out to thinking that this bloke is going to be as bad as Blair, if not worse.

His defenders on here become quieter every week.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 01:17:06 PM
Kier Starmer is a cop.


Made of ham.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 03:27:21 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/15/dan-carden-quits-labour-frontbench-over-failure-to-oppose-mi5-bill)

Wow. Principles. Remember them?

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-15_15-25-18-png.189289/)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 15, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
You can't blame it all on the government though.  Starmer should be fighting this tooth and nail, instead, he's setting out the tea cups and plating up the hobnobs.  He's a fucking cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 15, 2020, 03:41:29 PM
I think that's his point; Starmer is taking the Tory bait. They're exploring how far his triangulation will stretch.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 15, 2020, 03:46:50 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-15_15-25-18-png.189289/)

Written in the same style as Kinnock's speech denouncing Militant - nice
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 05:25:47 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/capture-png.189291/)

Is the plan to do little more than exist and hope the waiting pays off?

This hubris is very similar to that expressed by tig isn't it? That simply by being blariites they'll win just like he did.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 15, 2020, 05:34:37 PM
I thought the abstaining 'strategy' was to abstain at this stage but then make amendments - what is the thinking behind abstaining, rather than voting against, if it ends up UNamended?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 05:37:36 PM
I saw some centrists try and claim that they would be walking into 'elephant traps' laid by the tories if they abstained. But the first time they abstained the tories released a load of smears as if they'd voted against, and besides if Labour is so concerned about the tories saying nasty things now if they do the right thing because they think it might temporarily dent approval, with an election so far away, it is already morally and functionally paralysed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 15, 2020, 05:38:43 PM
I thought the abstaining 'strategy' was to abstain at this stage but then make amendments - what is the thinking behind abstaining, rather than voting against, if it ends up UNamended?
The thinking is, they have no policies of their own, being the beigest of the beige, and are desperately hoping that if they keep their heads down, in a few years they'll either get cushy directorships or the Tories will implode and they'll luck into being the government.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: George Oscar Bluth II on October 15, 2020, 05:46:43 PM
Also abstaining you still get the Tories saying "Labour didn't support our efforts to allow Are Brave Boys to commit Good Crimes while undercover protecting you". Did they learn from the benefits vote farce of 2015? Did they fuck. Fair play to everyone who quit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 06:06:06 PM
Also abstaining you still get the Tories saying "Labour didn't support our efforts to allow Are Brave Boys to commit Good Crimes while undercover protecting you". Did they learn from the benefits vote farce of 2015? Did they fuck. Fair play to everyone who quit.

The tories literally did this when they abstained a few weeks ago. If Starmer's actually playing 4d chess like centrists claim he is, he's fucking shit at it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 06:13:45 PM
The results are in, all amendments failed and the bill passed.

https://twitter.com/pmillerinfo/status/1316764123624075265

34 voted against this time.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkYmVFfX0AItkHY?format=jpg&name=medium)

Nav Mishara has also resigned.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 15, 2020, 06:26:29 PM
Good on you Baz.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 15, 2020, 06:31:12 PM
Am I being thick or are we genuinely entering the stages of a quasi-totalitarian regime?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 15, 2020, 06:40:52 PM
Clive Lewis managed to lay his hands on his soul in the end, i see.

The Labour MPs in that image above are the only members of the PLP who would've joined the resistance in Nazi-occupied territory.

The rest couldn't even be fucked to walk through a corridor to take a stand against state-sanctioned murder, rape, and torture.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 06:49:24 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-15_18-46-37-png.189294/)

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-15_18-47-19-png.189295/)

(https://frinkiac.com/img/S05E03/974489.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 15, 2020, 06:59:19 PM
So between this and the abstention on the Overseas Ops bill, that's pledges 4, 7, and 10 all gone. However Keir is adding an 11th pledge, i believe we will all be able to apply for co-ownership of a bridge he's selling.

Worse than Miliband.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: colacentral on October 15, 2020, 07:22:50 PM
Often enormous crises force a new political reality upon those who  would not otherwise have accepted the need, ideologically or practically.

We have to fight tooth and nail for NEC representation, otherwise find leftwing but ostensibly cross-party causes to back like the environment, universal basic income, even something like assisted dying (not the DWP kind). The left need a trojan horse/wedge issue they can use. They also need a leader.

Sultana?

Either way, if there is even a hint of a charismatic left leader emerging I reckon the left have a narrow chance of toppling Starmer. Realistically we will probably wait til 2024 and find Starmer has done just enough to stay in the job.

Replacing the House of Lords and a new campaign for PR would be popular with a broad range of people. Specifically "replace" not "abolish" as the checks and balances argument is always the obvious counter. They are the unelected corrupt elite that the EU was portrayed as.

Plus environmental concerns and animal rights - even Tories love their cats and dogs. I feel like most people find that a laughable suggestion but animals and animal cruelty are a unifier, and look at how damaging the issue of fox hunting was to Theresa May. It also ties in with the environment in an obvious way. If we're talking about grass roots local campaigns to win people over, appealing to pet owners on issues that they can't dismiss as unpatriotic or classiest would seem a good tactic.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 15, 2020, 07:27:56 PM
Alex Sobel on Labour's left.. Hmm.. Nope not convinced.

This is the bind though. If you relinquish power Starmer will fill it with some ghoul and the left are further diminished. If you abstain to stay in the cabinet you can't scrub your soul clean. Corbyn never did this, even on Brexit. Starmer is a bastard.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 07:47:45 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/43dcdb4f-409d-407b-872f-39e4a298091f-png.189296/)

Abstention still results in tory attacks as if they'd voted against. Doesn't seem good morally or tactically.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 15, 2020, 08:40:54 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkYtkuvX0AApUoT?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 15, 2020, 08:43:20 PM
Abstention still results in tory attacks as if they'd voted against. Doesn't seem good morally or tactically.
It's never worked as a political strategy. Spineless, worthless fucks, every one of them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 15, 2020, 08:49:50 PM
Have you learned nothing? The only way to fight fascists is to help them get everything they want and save your attacks for their enemies.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Consignia on October 15, 2020, 09:14:30 PM
I reckon Keith's learning his lessons from Nietzsche, "Beware that, when fighting facists, you yourself do not become a facist". By doing the opposite, he's the furthest thing from a facist.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 15, 2020, 09:16:02 PM
Quote
Starmer had wanted Labour MPs to abstain on the bill once their amendments were defeated, arguing that statutory regulation of informants’ conduct would have been necessary if the party had been in power.

What does that mean
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 15, 2020, 09:19:08 PM
So between this and the abstention on the Overseas Ops bill, that's pledges 4, 7, and 10 all gone. However Keir is adding an 11th pledge, i believe we will all be able to apply for co-ownership of a bridge he's selling.

Worse than Miliband.

You could also argue that numbers 1 (Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners), 5 (Common ownership), 6 (Defend migrants’ rights) and 9 (Equality) have gone.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on October 15, 2020, 09:22:59 PM
'Centrists' are gonna get us all killed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 09:26:07 PM
You could also argue that numbers 1 (Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners), 5 (Common ownership), 6 (Defend migrants’ rights) and 9 (Equality) have gone.

You could argue, they're all gone given they've basically been put out of sight in favour of vague platitudes about 'british values' and how the tories are 'holding the country back' and the only time they're ever mentioned at all is when a disgruntled leftie digs them out to point out he's reneged on yet another one.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 15, 2020, 09:37:39 PM
I'll be looking round my next Branch Committee meeting trying to work out which one us is actually from the Foods Standards Agency and has licence to rape and kill the rest of us.




no, its impossible to try and be funny about this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 15, 2020, 09:57:43 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-15_18-46-37-png.189294/)

On point 1 there, this does rather sound like they're letting all the Tories' worst legislation through in the hope that we'll have to elect Labour to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 15, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
Sunk cost fallacy now isn't it?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 15, 2020, 10:00:35 PM
They'll not get rid of it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 15, 2020, 10:11:50 PM
It's never worked as a political strategy. Spineless, worthless fucks, every one of them.

Abstention can be useful if there's a balance parliament. There were lots of relatively sophisticated chess plays during the Brexit votes, however this rather falls into the shade when compared to abstaining on basic matters of principle and human rights.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 15, 2020, 10:15:23 PM
Can anyone help out? Around the time of Starmer's leadership ascension there were articles about his connection to something called the Triennial Commission? Now I come to google/bing/ecosia it I appear to have completely fabricated this.

However, as that would be the first such instance in my entire life, I suspect this - or something very similar - is true and I did read a long article from a Labour blogger about them. Was it Triennial something else?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 15, 2020, 10:17:24 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilateral_Commission

No one is going meet every 4 months FFS, not even lizard people living by a subterranean calendar.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 15, 2020, 10:19:20 PM
Can anyone help out? Around the time of Starmer's leadership ascension there were articles about his connection to something called the Triennial Commission? Now I come to google/bing/ecosia it I appear to have completely fabricated this.

However, as that would be the first such instance in my entire life, I suspect this - or something very similar - is true and I did read a long article from a Labour blogger about them. Was it Triennial something else?

Trilateral Commission maybe? (http://trilateral.org/download/files/membership/EU%20LIST%204_18(3).pdf)

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 15, 2020, 10:44:02 PM
What does that mean

Starmer's iota of a sensible point is that due to the conduct of undercover operatives and informants being a legal grey area at the moment which the courts have picked up on, statutory regulation of such activity is necessary.

But his argument is that regardless of the amendments failing "at least it's now codified", despite the fact that the codification removes the grey areas for the worse, not the better.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 15, 2020, 10:52:08 PM
Kier Starmer is a cop.


Made of ham.
half man, half ham

all cop
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 11:43:15 AM
Cheers to Zetetic and bgmts for the trilateral commission info!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 16, 2020, 11:57:31 AM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-16_11-56-21-png.189318/)

Waving through legislation to allow the state to torture, rape and murder citizens to own the left.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 12:02:45 PM
The zombified Dung-droid Ben Bradshaw, the haematoma. Why do we have to share a political party with these utter ghouls, subdural pisslings from the ravaged Blairite wastelands?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 16, 2020, 01:18:20 PM
He's got a point about national security. To prevent harm from coming to British citizens, the security services and the Food Standards Agency need to be able to kill them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 16, 2020, 01:26:11 PM
Starmer's iota of a sensible point is that due to the conduct of undercover operatives and informants being a legal grey area at the moment which the courts have picked up on, statutory regulation of such activity is necessary.

But his argument is that regardless of the amendments failing "at least it's now codified", despite the fact that the codification removes the grey areas for the worse, not the better.

Right, so it's meant to say that 'even if it were Labour that were in power, they'd have wanted to bring forward some similar sort of regulation anyway'. It's just written badly, because it reads to me like they're saying that 'statutory regulation would have been necessary under a Labour government, but it's not needed under a Tory government, so we're abstaining' - which is gibberish, but maybe not Starmer's fault.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 16, 2020, 01:56:36 PM
The zombified Dung-droid Ben Bradshaw, the haematoma. Why do we have to share a political party with these utter ghouls, subdural pisslings from the ravaged Blairite wastelands?
You don't.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 02:53:30 PM
I thought it was the last leader who was the reincarnation of STALIN.

https://novaramedia.com/2020/10/16/keir-starmer-has-launched-an-unprecedented-crackdown-on-rebel-mps/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: colacentral on October 16, 2020, 02:54:22 PM
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1317067231763795968?s=19

Quote
NEW from @novaramedia

Keir Starmer has launched an unprecedented crackdown on dissenting Labour MPs.

In a significant change from party protocol even those who break a one line whip are now being sent written warnings > https://t.co/qRb3wT9YOO

How many mps needed for a leadership challenge? Is it totally unassailable? 

Edit: around 40 is it? 35 voted against the bill. There are others, like Sam Tarry and Cat Smith, who abstained but could be sympathetic to a leadership challenge. That has to be the priority now, he's shown his true colours even faster than anyone thought he would.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 05:01:46 PM
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/keir-starmer-not-leader-he-may-soon-lead-uk

Slightly muddy analysis by Oborne on this occasion.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 05:03:04 PM
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1317067231763795968?s=19

How many mps needed for a leadership challenge? Is it totally unassailable? 

Edit: around 40 is it? 35 voted against the bill. There are others, like Sam Tarry and Cat Smith, who abstained but could be sympathetic to a leadership challenge. That has to be the priority now, he's shown his true colours even faster than anyone thought he would.

He wants to provoke a challenge and to completely crush any challenger, indeed it will simply add grist to the mill.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 05:09:57 PM
It is vitally important that we don't rush to try and topple Starmer and fall into that trap they are setting as there is no way the Labour membership will agree switch leader this quickly, and Starmer would hold all the cards in such a contest and, completrly counter to our intentions by holding such a contest, in its aftermath.

Instead we must win a majority on the NEC, win all local battles and position a few clear credible vocal critics on the backbenches, get the unions to do some real hard hitting. Starmer can't sack them.

In the meantime whinge and whinge and whinge to your local party. It doesn't matter if its witless stream of consciousness dross, just fill their mailboxes with discontent.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 16, 2020, 05:28:12 PM
Powerful criticism of the government’s performance on COVID-19 and disability employment by Labour’s shadow minister for disabled people was significantly watered down by her own party, Disability News Service (DNS) can reveal.

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/labour-waters-down-criticism-of-government-by-its-own-shadow-disability-minister/ (https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/labour-waters-down-criticism-of-government-by-its-own-shadow-disability-minister/)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 05:52:00 PM
Wes fucking Streeting to shadow education.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
Is it true Nita Clarke has already been removed from Labour HQ?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 06:31:51 PM
Didn't even last a day.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 06:33:16 PM
Waiting for rubber stamp confirmation on that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 16, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Waiting for rubber stamp confirmation on that.

Hardly a victory in that cunt cabal.

LEAVE THE LABOUR PARTY. POLITICS IS BEREFT. UK IS BEREFT.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 07:45:58 PM
Hardly a victory in that cunt cabal.

LEAVE THE LABOUR PARTY. POLITICS IS BEREFT. UK IS BEREFT.

When is your next important meeting with Her Majesty's Plague Table?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 16, 2020, 07:55:33 PM
When is your next important meeting with Her Majesty's Plague Table?

Thursday. But I have on average 5 to 7 important meetings with underlings daily, often at short notice. Apparently I'm interviewing someone for a Government position next week, found out at 5pm today. No idea what is happening.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 09:38:45 PM
Centrists getting a bit baity about this, from the account that did the Spitting Image redubs the other week.

https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1317048456221949952
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 16, 2020, 09:41:41 PM
Ha that's great!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 16, 2020, 09:51:30 PM
Centrists getting a bit baity about this, from the account that did the Spitting Image redubs the other week.

https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1317048456221949952

excellent. I looked through their stuff and Farage Garage is a banger!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 09:57:49 PM
Cry some more, melt.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1317194618052726784
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 16, 2020, 09:59:42 PM
They're great.

Someone far more clued up and better than me pointed out "if you're not at least shitpost adjacent you're doing politics wrong" and that's very true of the centrists, I think pointing that out to them would annoy them too tbh.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 16, 2020, 09:59:47 PM
Quote
With Starmer pulling ahead of Johnson in the polls, it is clearly essential for the Left to step up their attacks on Starmer. As Johnson would agree.

Lol Labour just legitimately arent even close to left wing anymore.

So, so mental.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 16, 2020, 10:03:11 PM
I don't remember seeing those Starmer pulling ahead of Johnson polls.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 16, 2020, 10:03:50 PM
Lol Labour just legitimately arent even close to left wing anymore.

So, so mental.

Last I saw they were still behind. Tories lost 2 points, Lib-Dems claimed one of them and Labour got fuck all.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 16, 2020, 10:06:23 PM
Cry some more, melt.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1317194618052726784

These neoliberals are such prudes. Curtain twitching, loafer wearing, small-eyed fragile cowards.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 16, 2020, 10:13:45 PM
I don't remember seeing those Starmer pulling ahead of Johnson polls.

An interaction I had the other day.

(https://i.imgur.com/ALPNbRT.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MZg3i3p.png)

I didn't realise I'd been blocked until I looked it out, what a fanny.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 16, 2020, 10:20:50 PM
Centrists getting a bit baity about this, from the account that did the Spitting Image redubs the other week.

https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1317048456221949952

That's awesome and the Farage Garage is simply out of this world!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 16, 2020, 10:39:04 PM
An interaction I had the other day.

(https://i.imgur.com/ALPNbRT.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MZg3i3p.png)

I didn't realise I'd been blocked until I looked it out, what a fanny.

A quick slaying this time Cobb. Tougher opponents await.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 16, 2020, 10:41:38 PM
"Just what else do they want?"

Something even resembling socialism maybe?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 16, 2020, 10:47:07 PM
We need an absolutely dreadful council election. That needs to provoke a leadership challenge.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 10:48:49 PM
What is the message to the millions of youth voters who voted Corbyn in 2017, and the voters who haven't yet had a chance to cast their vote in a general election?

So far, it seems to be: You can get fucked, eat shit, human shit preferably, then crawl into a hole of your choosing to die.

This doesn't seem to be a great way to keep Labour afloat, or even draw attention to enthusiasm within the movement.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 16, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
We need an absolutely dreadful council election. That needs to provoke a leadership challenge.

NO

I will reprimand you at a later date.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 16, 2020, 10:50:11 PM
"Just what else do they want?"

To hold torturers to account maybe?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on October 16, 2020, 11:23:26 PM
"Just what else do they want?"

To hold torturers to account maybe?

Yeah, but, you’re never going to win a General Election with extremist hard-left policies like that. Get real.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 17, 2020, 02:54:37 AM
Cry some more, melt.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1317194618052726784
If a waste of fucking oxygen like Aaronovitch doesn't like you, you're definitely doing something right.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 17, 2020, 02:57:33 AM
What is the message to the millions of youth voters who voted Corbyn in 2017, and the voters who haven't yet had a chance to cast their vote in a general election?

So far, it seems to be: You can get fucked, eat shit, human shit preferably, then crawl into a hole of your choosing to die.

This doesn't seem to be a great way to keep Labour afloat, or even draw attention to enthusiasm within the movement.
You can organise and vote for an organisation that in any way agrees with your views and is fighting to help you and people like you. Those people put years of effort into the Labour Party, to get Corbyn elected and support him. What did all that effort achieve?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jamiefairlie on October 17, 2020, 06:44:44 AM
We need an absolutely dreadful council election. That needs to provoke a leadership challenge.

Here's a starter from Aberdeen:

Ellon & District by-election first preference result:

SNP 42.4% (+10.5)
Conservatives 41.7% (+0.8)
Liberal Democrats 10.2% (-9.5)
Labour 2.9% (-4.7)
Greens 2.8% (+2.8)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 17, 2020, 09:56:32 AM
Doesn't that just pass the baton from the Real C&UP to the Tartan Tories?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 17, 2020, 10:20:17 AM
You can organise and vote for an organisation that in any way agrees with your views and is fighting to help you and people like you. Those people put years of effort into the Labour Party, to get Corbyn elected and support him. What did all that effort achieve?

It exposed that the left probably can win a general election if they have real control over Labour.

It exposed that our so called comrades have no tolerance whatsoever for allowing that control.

Therefore the war is within until there is a final victor. As can be seen by everything Starmer is doing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 17, 2020, 11:13:46 AM
If a waste of fucking oxygen like Aaronovitch doesn't like you, you're definitely doing something right.
i like how he sat through of all of that but it was the criticism of the times' darling jess that really triggered him.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 17, 2020, 11:24:15 AM
And she’s another one who didn’t vote against Spycops.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 17, 2020, 11:28:52 AM
Of course she fucking didn't. Although you'd think as Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding, it may just fall within her purview.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 17, 2020, 11:33:07 AM
Cry some more, melt.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1317194618052726784

Howling at Yesno's responses in that. https://twitter.com/daverdavies/status/1317224046229135361

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 17, 2020, 01:19:10 PM
And she’s another one who didn’t vote against Spycops.

Like Rosie Duffield, who's convinced that women are under threat from men pretending to be women but not bothered about the actual threat from policemen pretending to be lovers.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 17, 2020, 04:37:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/q4hK9yh.png)

The 'yasssss qweeen'ing of Ardern from nobheads like Nandy has done my lid in, Corbyn was asking for less than what Ardern's manifesto promises and they fucking trashed it.

Another reason the adoration of Ardern's win from sensible white liberals is jarring is because it ignores how much Maori's are getting fucked over; poverty and homelessness are increasing for them and NZ is sliding down the rankings in that regard.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 17, 2020, 10:52:27 PM
Just a reminder regarding the necessity of a Left-led NEC to preserve any remnant of a foothold in the party.

Due to preference votes they have come up with a slightly different order of preference depending on what region you are in. You can make a note here.

https://futureweneed.com/preference/


MONDAY 19 OCT
The Labour party begins emailing out ballots.

THURSDAY 12 NOV
Voting closes.

FRIDAY 13 NOV
Results announced.

Get the vote in early when the emails arrive and don't leave/forget about this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 17, 2020, 11:00:36 PM
Dealing with politics and reminding myself how utterly fucked and deserving of obliteration most people are is VERY BAD for my fragile mental health so I don't keep up now but is there a reason why should we be bothering with the Labour party at this point?
Title: Jess Phillips is a cunt, even when she's not smiling
Post by: Buelligan on October 17, 2020, 11:28:03 PM
Cry some more, melt.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1317194618052726784

That was the best bit.  Thank you for posting these links Tubby, I'm tired as fuck and fucked off with everything and you made me laugh.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 17, 2020, 11:33:11 PM
Dealing with politics and reminding myself how utterly fucked and deserving of obliteration most people are is VERY BAD for my fragile mental health so I don't keep up now but is there a reason why should we be bothering with the Labour party at this point?

none
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on October 18, 2020, 06:04:22 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/q4hK9yh.png)

The 'yasssss qweeen'ing of Ardern from nobheads like Nandy has done my lid in, Corbyn was asking for less than what Ardern's manifesto promises and they fucking trashed it.

Another reason the adoration of Ardern's win from sensible white liberals is jarring is because it ignores how much Maori's are getting fucked over; poverty and homelessness are increasing for them and NZ is sliding down the rankings in that regard.

Its pretty standard tactics all across media and politics isn't it? have a much more left wing progressive view for whats going on elsewhere than they ever do for this country were anyone asking for the same will always have something wrong with them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 18, 2020, 07:52:33 AM
Lots of people in the comments pointing that out.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 09:40:27 AM
Lots of people in the comments pointing that out.

She doesn't read the comments.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 18, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
I need the biggest melt you have

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkmIP9OXEAAbk9x?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 18, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
Bullied out? They were delighted to play the victim, leave and receive as much media attention as possible whilst doing so. If leftwinger's were kicking up as much shit as those lot did right now he'd probably be going mental.

Ian Austin - one of the most loathsome cunts in politics. If I heard he'd fallen into a shark tank I'd be delighted. Gapes, the sentient hemorrhoid. Berger, I can't even remember anything about her.

These people have family member's who wouldn't even miss them, never mind the general public.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 12:19:09 PM
Joan Ryan, healing crystals and puppet strings.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 12:21:43 PM
Quote
David Hirsh is a lecturer in Sociology at Goldsmiths, University of London, and co-founder of Engage, a campaign against the academic boycott of Israel

Israel and their "friends' seem to be the common factor in the rot at the heart of the Labour Party. Prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 18, 2020, 12:24:29 PM
People who fervently support an ethnostate with compulsory military service trying to destroy the party of trade unions larry faint.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 18, 2020, 01:02:40 PM
Lots of people in the comments pointing that out.

Similar going on here as well.
https://twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/1317523095041822724

To be fair to Nandy I think she genuinely is quite stupid.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 18, 2020, 01:50:03 PM
I'm a bit ashamed that I was taught by David Hirsh, although this was before Corbyn came along and exposed how horrible these people's views are. I knew he was big into his Israel, but that topic seemed awfully complex so I never looked into it in any detail.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 01:53:41 PM
I'm a bit ashamed that I was taught by David Hirsh, although this was before Corbyn came along and exposed how horrible these people's views are. I knew he was big into his Israel, but that topic seemed awfully complex so I never looked into it in any detail.

when I read his page, you were the person who came into my mind's eye
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 18, 2020, 01:57:09 PM
He's a very big Arsenal fan, so I was always slightly suspicious of him.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 18, 2020, 02:39:01 PM
LOL Creasy leaked a letter to Pogrund and they're both too pigshit-thick to redact it properly.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EknL8omXIAI2mf9?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EknPnV3WAAAq6Hx?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EknPnhaXgAAMSaB?format=jpg&name=large)

She was policing randoms on twitter for not being deferential earlier, while swimming in the pool of one of the most right-wing newspapers in the country.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 18, 2020, 02:51:45 PM
that could be any mp named Ms Creasy!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 18, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
More gaffes. Oh Armando.

(https://i.imgur.com/5vucV2w.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 18, 2020, 04:04:34 PM
Even Grimesy probably knows the difference between right and write.  Though this cigar penis does give some insight into Armando's problems with the Left.  What a disappointing, pleased-with-himself, cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 18, 2020, 04:14:35 PM
Well if he's asking it’s because he doesn’t know. I’m not that hot on economics either. Don’t see why Dawn Foster has to be a twat about it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 18, 2020, 04:18:29 PM
Because Iannucci is a cunt and deserves a good public shoeing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 18, 2020, 04:19:55 PM
If only he’d shown similar humility when it actually mattered.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 18, 2020, 04:22:20 PM
Because Iannucci is a cunt and deserves a good public shoeing.

I'm more on this side of the argument, Foster strikes me as a great bunch of lads. Although a Centrist pal tried to claim she's the Dan Hodges of the left, which struck me as very unfair.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 18, 2020, 04:37:49 PM
It's completely unfair, Dan Hodges has no yin, it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 18, 2020, 04:53:51 PM
As i understand it, governments borrow by issuing bonds. A bond is a kind of IOU that traditionally pays interest to the bearer. While these bonds can be purchased by the governments of other countries they are also bought by private investors, pension funds and any institution that has cash to spare, e.g. charities.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 18, 2020, 04:59:24 PM
Interest rates for state borrowing are so low they can borrow it and let it sit on a shelf and it'll be worth more than the interest over time.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 05:10:00 PM
Interest rates for state borrowing are so low they can borrow it and let it sit on a shelf and it'll be worth more than the interest over time.

negative interests for a time? generally governments get very good rates of interest anyway, but they are historically low so its an open goal for Rishi, but he didn't take it and only James Meadway has talked about this that I have seen.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: colacentral on October 18, 2020, 05:29:32 PM
Even Grimesy probably knows the difference between right and write.  Though this cigar penis does give some insight into Armando's problems with the Left.  What a disappointing, pleased-with-himself, cunt.

Yeah, the pertinent point is that his level of ignorance on this explains a lot about his political opinions. He's a fraud. He's not a political satirist, he's a media satirist.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 18, 2020, 05:35:11 PM
Well if he's asking it’s because he doesn’t know. I’m not that hot on economics either. Don’t see why Dawn Foster has to be a twat about it.

Yeah, but you're not one of Britain's leading political satirists.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 05:48:27 PM
Yeah, but you're not one of Britain's leading political satirists.

but he is one of CaB's beigest centrists.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 18, 2020, 05:58:56 PM
Yeah, but you're not one of Britain's leading political satirists.

Yes.

And what's with asking that question faux-innocently on a public platform when it's something anyone could find out themselves through basic research.

It's like he wanted to make a point then checked himself and figured out how else to pitch it. Get off Twitter Almindo
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 18, 2020, 06:54:23 PM
"Hello Hugh, I was just wondering whatever happened to Armando Iannucci?"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 18, 2020, 07:16:34 PM
"Hello Hugh, I was just wondering whatever happened to Armando Iannucci?"

Oh, I'm stealing that :-D
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 18, 2020, 07:30:21 PM
Yeah, the pertinent point is that his level of ignorance on this explains a lot about his political opinions. He's a fraud. He's not a political satirist, he's a media satirist.

Yes, I suppose that's always been the case, but it wasn't necessarily clear before what the difference is.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 18, 2020, 07:41:34 PM
'It was called Third way politics back then, not Centrism, that came later'
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: peanutbutter on October 18, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
He's a good producer who likes to produce satire. He's good at thinking of broad concepts for other people to work on and finding the right people to work on them. The peak of his own comedic output is probably the Stewart Lee red button bits.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 18, 2020, 07:43:54 PM
The peak of his own comedic output is probably the Stewart Lee red button bits.

I'd say it's The Armando Iannucci Shows.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 18, 2020, 07:46:13 PM
Yes, with lots of stuff in between.

It is a good point the cognitive dissonance between his dissection of the media and political process, particularly his criticism in The Thick of It about politics reduced to administrative competency over values and his inability to possess seemingly any adventurous progressive political views whatsoever.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 18, 2020, 07:47:33 PM
Yeah, but you're not one of Britain's leading political satirists.

Fair enough, but I still don't think it's that weird to know a fair bit about politics but fuck all about economics. If he'd done PPE at Oxford like the politicians do, maybe, but he did English same as I did.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 18, 2020, 07:56:01 PM
I think it's remarkable how we, for example, all seem to know relatively unsophisticated economic concepts yet someone who has involved themselves so deeply, in fact surrounded himself with insiders and researches in the aim of producing political satire claims ignorance on the issue, but even further than that, cannot even be arsed researching this in private and is happy flaunting it on twitter in a faux ignorant 'not sure about this but cant be wrong surely' way. Looks an absolute tit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 18, 2020, 08:26:01 PM
"Hello Hugh, I was just wondering whatever happened to Armando Iannucci?"

(https://i.postimg.cc/T2LNXZ7f/hes-a-twat.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 18, 2020, 08:52:53 PM
Berger, I can't even remember anything about her.


I had a tiny smidgeon of sympathy for Berger, well more than the rest of the Change cunts anyway, until I read in Left Out how she only raised the issue of Corbyn's 'defence' of that anti-semetic mural the very day after a weekend retreat planning how best to launch that joke of a party.

As for Ian Austin, if I could get away with killing him I'd be so tempted to giving it a go. I think I hate him more than any tory, even Patel.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 18, 2020, 09:09:50 PM
As i understand it, governments borrow by issuing bonds. A bond is a kind of IOU that traditionally pays interest to the bearer. While these bonds can be purchased by the governments of other countries they are also bought by private investors, pension funds and any institution that has cash to spare, e.g. charities.

In this case, however, the money is mostly coming from quantitative easing, which means the government is borrowing from the Bank of England, which is creating the money out of nothing, as banks do whenever they lend. The Bank of England is owned by the government, so the government is essentially borrowing money from itself.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 18, 2020, 09:11:34 PM
Seeing Stella Creasy defending nominating Luke Akehurst on the grounds of hard work rather than political affiliation makes me wonder what fucking planet these people are on. Every iota of his hard work seems to be dedicated to realigning Labour towards everything they were hated for.

What the fuck do you think this person is there for? Any cunt who is able to climb the greasy pole to sufficient NEC nominations has displayed requisite hard work beforehand.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 18, 2020, 10:39:17 PM
Hello Hugh! I'm just here to talk to you about politics!

Well. What we used to, was gather around the ol' Joanna for a sing-song of Things Can Only Get Better. Then, sensibly, we waved miniature Union Jacks to celebrate the execution of Saddam Hussein. I remember that day, me mam gave me a delicious bun. "Things can only get butter!" she said. amusing, but I don't think butter was really a significant ingredient. Then, the day Gordon Brown bailed out the banks in 2008, we all played a rousing multiplayer game of LittleBigPlanet, and had a Tunnock's Teacake.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 18, 2020, 10:48:52 PM
I'd say it's The Armando Iannucci Shows.
Is there any other comedy show with such a combination of and massive gulf between really funny, imaginitive and original good bits, and absolutely toe-curling, cringeworthy, ill conceived and badly executed parts just railroaded through? Frasier?

eg

Great bits - the men attached to wardrobes, Hugh, the barber, scottish heaven, village sniper

Argh - specific amounts of bad things are good for you, pretending to like football, pie conversations, plane crash simulator

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 18, 2020, 10:49:31 PM
"I remember one day someone came in and said the high-altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success... so we all ran out and celebrated, by killing an ostrich."

^ as far as I'm concerned that line is in itself the most succinct and insightful piece of political comedy that Iannucci has ever come up with.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 18, 2020, 10:52:30 PM
Is there any other comedy show with such a combination of and massive gulf between really funny, imaginitive and original good bits, and absolutely toe-curling, cringeworthy, ill conceived and badly executed parts just railroaded through? Frasier?

eg

Great bits - the men attached to wardrobes, Hugh, the barber, scottish heaven, village sniper

Argh - specific amounts of bad things are good for you, pretending to like football, pie conversations, plane crash simulator

Three of your four "Argh" selections are some of my absolute favourite bits of the show! Each to their own, but I find it hard to understand how anyone could not like the plane simulator bit.

"This woman had always wanted to lose weight, so she started eating lots of salad."
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 18, 2020, 11:01:00 PM
Bit sexist.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 18, 2020, 11:15:13 PM
i love the football bit in the IAS. shame the man turned out to be an utter establishment arsehole.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 19, 2020, 12:19:51 AM
Three of your four "Argh" selections are some of my absolute favourite bits of the show!

Yes, absolutely, and it must be a different three for me because I've forgotten plane crash simulator.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thursday on October 19, 2020, 12:21:54 AM
Don't be too harsh on Armando, Stephen Mangan took his pie and now he doesn't know what to say.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 19, 2020, 01:45:08 AM
Three of your four "Argh" selections are some of my absolute favourite bits of the show! Each to their own, but I find it hard to understand how anyone could not like the plane simulator bit.

TBH I've not watched it in ten years, so I may be misremembering or confusing some bits. Another bit I loved was the man who gets lethal boredom, that's me at the moment. "Oh Christ, his eyes have started bleeding". Anyway, Armando OBE, best of luck to him, I'm sure his Dickens film is wickedly sharp and I do so look forward to a secret cinema screening in a recreated workhouse or some shit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 19, 2020, 08:22:16 AM
"I remember one day someone came in and said the high-altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success... so we all ran out and celebrated, by killing an ostrich."

^ as far as I'm concerned that line is in itself the most succinct and insightful piece of political comedy that Iannucci has ever come up with.

Mister Six has a compilation of all Hugh's bits on youtube. I watched them yesterday and the Ostrich one is a diamond in a treasure chest of jewels.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 19, 2020, 10:25:58 AM
In this case, however, the money is mostly coming from quantitative easing, which means the government is borrowing from the Bank of England, which is creating the money out of nothing, as banks do whenever they lend. The Bank of England is owned by the government, so the government is essentially borrowing money from itself.
Weirdly, there's a good explainer about government borrowing for Coronavirus (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/coronavirus-government-debt-an-explainer/) on the UK Parliament website. The Bank of England is spending £200 billion on government bonds and similar things. If only Armando knew how to Google. The government borrowed £35.9 billion in August (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/august2020), to give an idea of how that relates to total borrowing, so based on that the BoE could fund almost 6 months of borrowing. (Although of course all the money it's creating for Coronovirus could have been used for other purposes, even though it wouldn't have with the Tories or Keith in charge.)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 19, 2020, 11:19:55 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkoaZBzXEAAxIGm?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EknHm3AWAAEgiU9?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekn0tSaXYAchLMO?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekol7RIXIAA0J9m?format=png&name=360x360)

BONUS: let's have a look at this supposed stupid sexy nazi, one of the architects of the shoah, put on trial in israel and executed in 1962

(https://www.bard.edu/files/pr/main_news_image.php?id=15973)

HUBBA HUBBA! DOWN BOY!!!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 19, 2020, 11:21:40 AM
The banality of incredible good looks.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 11:37:19 AM
I thought we were doing 'zero tolerance' now? How come she's been allowed to slope off on her own apology whereas others haven't?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 19, 2020, 11:41:58 AM
In this case, however, the money is mostly coming from quantitative easing, which means the government is borrowing from the Bank of England, which is creating the money out of nothing, as banks do whenever they lend. The Bank of England is owned by the government, so the government is essentially borrowing money from itself.

Ah yes, i had a feeling my info was somewhat dated.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 19, 2020, 12:16:07 PM
Weirdly, there's a good explainer about government borrowing for Coronavirus (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/coronavirus-government-debt-an-explainer/) on the UK Parliament website. The Bank of England is spending £200 billion on government bonds and similar things. If only Armando knew how to Google. The government borrowed £35.9 billion in August (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/august2020), to give an idea of how that relates to total borrowing, so based on that the BoE could fund almost 6 months of borrowing. (Although of course all the money it's creating for Coronovirus could have been used for other purposes, even though it wouldn't have with the Tories or Keith in charge.)

Technically the BoE could fund any amount of government borrowing, without limit. The limit on government spending isn't how much money they have, because they can always QE more into existence - it's the effect that spending too much might have on the economy, i.e., excessive inflation. We are currently nowhere near that limit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: sevendaughters on October 19, 2020, 12:22:37 PM
didn't know whether to put this in here, make a special thread, or pure desolation

Starmer backs national two-minute doorstep silence for Remembrance Sunday
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/politicians-unite-behind-call-two-22866976
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 19, 2020, 12:46:08 PM
didn't know whether to put this in here, make a special thread, or pure desolation

Starmer backs national two-minute doorstep silence for Remembrance Sunday
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/politicians-unite-behind-call-two-22866976

He couldn't help himself, after hearing Johnson had backed it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 19, 2020, 12:47:40 PM
maybe we should have REMEMBERANCING 2020 MEGATHREAD.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 19, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
Standard jingoism schlock that's so asinine and tokenistic it would be petty to complain about it. So everyone supports it. Blackford supported it too.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 19, 2020, 01:17:05 PM
Standard jingoism schlock that's so asinine and tokenistic it would be petty to complain about it. So everyone supports it. Blackford supported it too.

I'm not going to complain about it. Not gonna do it either.
Title: This doesn't look good for Corbyn
Post by: Buelligan on October 19, 2020, 01:53:47 PM
I think I'll go and shit on Johnson's and write Starmer did a poo round it in beige washable crayon.

(https://i2.wp.com/newsfeeds.media/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/labour-party-group-forced-to-apologise-for-tweet-saying-leader-keir-starmer-did-a-poo.jpg?fit=634%2C846&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 19, 2020, 02:08:37 PM
Technically the BoE could fund any amount of government borrowing, without limit. The limit on government spending isn't how much money they have, because they can always QE more into existence - it's the effect that spending too much might have on the economy, i.e., excessive inflation. We are currently nowhere near that limit.
Indeed, I should have said 6 months on the current program (£200 billion). I've no idea how much more we could create without pushing inflation up, but given inflation is currently (August) 0.5%, which is 1.5% below the Bank of England's target of 2%, there's a lot of scope.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 19, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Voted. After the recommended top six grassroots choices for my region, i padded it out with the rest of the leftists. Immaterial i'm sure as my fifteenth preference is unlikely to be required.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 03:27:13 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkspsTkXgAMzLOh?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 04:40:30 PM
After the success of the blue-tick centrist brainworms tourney, there's now a worst labour mp tourney.
https://twitter.com/centristhacks/status/1318158501160550400
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 08:53:46 PM
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777 (https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777)

Quote
Former Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, tells
@lewis_goodall (http://'https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall')
she was suspicious of Keir Starmer when they were in the shadow cabinet together

This may upset the 'its just workplace banter' section of the Labour Party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 19, 2020, 09:19:26 PM
Former Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, tells
@lewis_goodall
she was suspicious of Keir Starmer when they were in the shadow cabinet together

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777 (https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777)

This may upset the 'its just workplace banter' section of the Labour Party.

The thing is … he's a fucking psychopath, isn't he?

I mean, au fond.

She was right to be suspicious of him. There is something desperately wrong with him.

It's not even Jess Phillips level of self-interest. There's something wrong.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 09:24:46 PM
I agree.

Also Abbott is amazing at responding to obvious trap questions with great doublespeak isn't she? 'you might say he's a clever man' lol.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 19, 2020, 09:40:59 PM
via jewdas of course, but. fucking hell

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0X8XgAAwJM1?format=jpg&name=900x900)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0X9XEAAB725?format=jpg&name=900x900)

imagine if crobbins had been "hmm, i'd love to have sex with that genocidal madman who was complicit in the murder of millions of Jews"

imagine
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 19, 2020, 09:44:31 PM
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777 (https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777)

This may upset the 'its just workplace banter' section of the Labour Party.

Can you scrape the twitter data from the replies. Looking to compile a black book of people to target for removal once the Communist Party of Pig Britain gets in power.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 19, 2020, 09:46:04 PM
via jewdas of course, but. fucking hell

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0X8XgAAwJM1?format=jpg&name=900x900)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0X9XEAAB725?format=jpg&name=900x900)

imagine if crobbins had been "hmm, i'd love to have sex with that genocidal madman who was complicit in the murder of millions of Jews"

imagine

These people are not Jews, are they. Their heritage maybe but like lapsed catholics, they are all sorts of wrong.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 09:50:01 PM
To be fair a lot of the Jewish people I agree with are just as unorthodox.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 19, 2020, 09:52:10 PM
Imagine if a left-wing jew cracked this banger

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0YHWkAQ28np?format=png&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 19, 2020, 09:53:10 PM
To be fair a lot of the Jewish people I agree with are just as unorthodox.

Depends on the subject I suppose.

I once had a big argument about mathematical notation with a Jewish woman (my PI in Canada).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 19, 2020, 09:53:57 PM
Imagine if a left-wing jew cracked this banger

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkuB0YHWkAQ28np?format=png&name=900x900)

Pretty offensive that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 19, 2020, 09:58:15 PM
The thing is … he's a fucking psychopath, isn't he?

I mean, au fond.

She was right to be suspicious of him. There is something desperately wrong with him.

It's not even Jess Phillips level of self-interest. There's something wrong.

Abbott can detect a careerist snake from a mile off.

Unfortunately for Keir, he can't muster that fatuous earnestness Cameron had, his conceit is so close to the surface as to be obvious. Of course, he doesn't have as high a bar to reach, he will win votes just by looking and sounding less of a cunt than Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 10:13:34 PM
Abbott can detect a careerist snake from a mile off.

Unfortunately for Keir, he can't muster that fatuous earnestness Cameron had, his conceit is so close to the surface as to be obvious. Of course, he doesn't have as high a bar to reach, he will win votes just by looking and sounding less of a cunt than Boris Johnson.

"government in watiing"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 19, 2020, 10:28:39 PM
Pretty offensive that.
mainly because it isnt funny
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 19, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777 (https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1318261069048139777)

This may upset the 'its just workplace banter' section of the Labour Party.

I'd dispute "He won the leadership election fair and square." To me, "fair and square" doesn't mean persuading people to vote for you by making pledges you don't intend to keep.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 19, 2020, 10:31:02 PM
don't want to say atodaso but it seemed like a wallet inspection at the time.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 19, 2020, 10:35:59 PM
Abbott can detect a careerist snake from a mile off.

This has just reminded me of that great time in the Commons when Keith Vaz started going on about what a great home secretary Alan Johnson would be, how well-suited he would be, all his experience etc. and a couple of rows behind him Abbott just started making slurping noises taking the piss out of his ass-kissing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 19, 2020, 10:37:43 PM
My CLP (Leeds West) suggested this:

Quote
Before ballots drop, I thought it might be helpful if I reminded you which candidates our CLP nominated, at the prior nomination stage.

1. Gurinder Singh Josan

2. Ann Black

3. Johanna Baxter

4. Luke Akehurst

5. Paula Sherriff

6. Yasmin Dar

7. Gemma Bolton

8. Nadia Jama

9. Laura Pidcock

Rachel Reeves making the suggestion of course. She can eat shit trying to get that neocon psoriasis incel cunt Akehurst on the NEC. No way I'm voting for Black or Baxter either.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 19, 2020, 10:38:59 PM
Quick reminder:

Quote
Election Timetable

Ballot distribution begins – Monday 19 October

Reissue requests open – Monday 26 October

Deadline to request postal reissue – Thursday 5 November

Deadline to request email reissue with the Labour Party – Monday 9 November

Deadline to request email reissue via self-service portal – Thursday 12 November

Close of ballot – Thursday 12 November, noon
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 20, 2020, 05:24:37 AM
I need the biggest melt you have

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkmIP9OXEAAbk9x?format=jpg&name=900x900)

David Hirsh has always been a mendacious cunt. His work is defined by deliberate misrepresentations of the statements and arguments of left-wingers and critics of Israel in order to defend the ethnostate and demonise the left as anti-semitic. His inane comments in this exchange are a good example:
https://twitter.com/DavidHirsh/status/1032900247536713728

And Ian Austin (and John Woodock) endorsed Boris Johnson in the name of anti-racism:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/07/former-labour-mp-ian-austin-urges-voters-back-boris-johnson
Anyone holding him up as a principled opponent of racism is a moron.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: EOLAN on October 20, 2020, 05:49:37 AM
If New Zealand was anyway significant on the world stage wouldn't the likes of Hirsch be calling out Ardern for some of her views on the Israel/Palestine situation.

Though not all the criticisms would  be directly related to that issue; but would influence his outright opposition.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 20, 2020, 08:13:54 AM
don't want to say atodaso but it seemed like a wallet inspection at the time.

Cobb's Razor
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jonnycuba on October 20, 2020, 09:19:51 AM
My CLP (Leeds West) suggested this:

Rachel Reeves making the suggestion of course. She can eat shit trying to get that neocon psoriasis incel cunt Akehurst on the NEC. No way I'm voting for Black or Baxter either.

Might want to send her this email from the GLU...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekt7C7OW0AIJzA6?format=jpg&name=large

Reeves has explicitly broken party rules doing that. Using her access to membership databases to canvas asymmetrically.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 20, 2020, 10:01:06 AM
Sure about that? Several Labour MPs have been promoting various NEC candidates.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 20, 2020, 10:15:28 AM
The question is via what medium. Jonny's saying that using emails from a CLP database to canvas is not allowed, rather than canvassing elsewhere.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 20, 2020, 11:28:09 AM
Yes, it looks pretty unequivocal.  You should dob her the fuck in.  Please dob her the fuck in.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 20, 2020, 12:04:41 PM
Dob her in. Dob her in up her motherfuckling ass.

Did anyone see Newsnight's piece about the party under Starmer last night. Really trashy bit where they had Peter fucking Mandelson hinting that the party should expel JC once the EHRC report comes out, and then just before they cut to Len, the presenter warns viewers that he is going to do an anti-semitism, and then Len says PM should just fuck off and count his gold. Starmer's PPS is a fucking dinner lady who thinks dying her hair purple and wearing colourful frames makes her a hit with the kids.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jonnycuba on October 20, 2020, 12:43:38 PM
Sure about that? Several Labour MPs have been promoting various NEC candidates.

Looks like a pretty clear breach to me. You can complain here:

ballots@labour.org.uk
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 20, 2020, 01:07:27 PM
Has everyone had their ballot yet? mine hasn't come through to my email..

Had a text from momentum advising who to vote for well in advance though thankfully
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 20, 2020, 01:12:55 PM
Has everyone had their ballot yet? mine hasn't come through to my email..

Had a text from momentum advising who to vote for well in advance though thankfully

Mine hasn't arrived yet. I emailed the ballot team and they said it can take a few days.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 20, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
I just received mine. Always check spam/junk folders obvs. You can request a reissue from Mon 26 Oct so best to wait till then for it turn up.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on October 20, 2020, 01:39:04 PM
Yep, got mine yesterday and voted.......[1]
 1. Now to decide whether to renew membership.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jockice on October 20, 2020, 02:55:28 PM
I've stopped paying subs, sent a reply to Starmer's begging letter saying the party will never get another penny from me as long as I live. And they've still sent me a voting form. Silly people.

New page everything I fucking post nowadays is a new page.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 20, 2020, 03:00:55 PM
Reposting that preferences link:

https://futureweneed.com/preference/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 20, 2020, 03:18:06 PM
Oh, and there's a treasurer position to vote on too. Any ideas?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 20, 2020, 03:24:53 PM
Holland will be returned for sure, because of union votes. Vote Giles.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 20, 2020, 03:48:38 PM
Ta, pancreas.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 20, 2020, 03:53:41 PM
https://twitter.com/LabLeftAlliance

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkrhQFMXgAMUWcw?format=jpg&name=medium)

Labour Left Alliance have a list of all the names people should nominate, although I personally prioritised the ones suggested by this link:

Reposting that preferences link:

https://futureweneed.com/preference/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 20, 2020, 04:32:38 PM
Yeah, that's how the last bunch of NEC elections got fucked for the left, because it diluted the vote. Definitely vote for the 6 candidates recommended by Momentum (Blumf's link), for the win (hopefully).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on October 20, 2020, 05:44:13 PM
Just voted for the 6 candidates recommended by Momentum. Went with pancreas'  recommendation for Treasurer.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 20, 2020, 07:18:14 PM
Have ignored the Labour Left Alliance and gone for Grassroots Voice + Wiseman 7th.

You can tell it's a crock of shit because it does dilute the vote. How could it not. The best chance for the left is to coalesce around the same 6 or 7 candidates, not disperse them around 20. Fucking hell. Does anyone think the right of the party are doing this? Come on.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 20, 2020, 07:33:29 PM
I just received mine. Always check spam/junk folders obvs. You can request a reissue from Mon 26 Oct so best to wait till then for it turn up.

Mine ended up in my gmail's Promotions folder.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 20, 2020, 07:35:33 PM
Yeah, that's how the last bunch of NEC elections got fucked for the left, because it diluted the vote. Definitely vote for the 6 candidates recommended by Momentum (Blumf's link), for the win (hopefully).

What the fuck are they playing at? If it wouldn't split the left vote, why is it important to rank your choices in a particular way?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 20, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
Does anyone think the right of the party are doing this?

I know it's not what you meant but I can't help but take a paranoid interpretation of this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on October 20, 2020, 08:25:54 PM
Yes seems massively misguided at best and a false flag op at worst.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 20, 2020, 08:27:32 PM
Yes seems massively misguided at best and a false flag op at worst.

Blodwyn's Razor has just been sharpened....

YUP, right wing interference. Nailed on.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 20, 2020, 10:52:32 PM
After the success of the blue-tick centrist brainworms tourney, there's now a worst labour mp tourney.
https://twitter.com/centristhacks/status/1318158501160550400

Have you seen the Rap Sheet with comments about the shittier of the MPs? The Kate Green one is quite good...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 20, 2020, 10:55:15 PM
Have you seen the Rap Sheet with comments about the shittier of the MPs? The Kate Green one is quite good...

nah link?

edit: found it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CG7gR1Z2kF3lk7JbHSurcE2hyDBIsnMx-yeO_Jg7KHA/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 20, 2020, 11:01:19 PM
Quote
"Chaired Owen Smith's 2016 leadership campaign
Personal friends with misogynistic Twitter danger @Falcon_Malteser"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 20, 2020, 11:02:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ukP3wdv.png)

lol
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 21, 2020, 07:09:24 AM
Quote
Attended a Shed Seven gig with Therese Coffey and Michael Dugher; attended a Liam Gallagher gig with Matt Hancock, taking selfies each time
Used Mrs Brown's Boys as a metric against which politicians' connections with the public may be judged
Allowed her staff to cheer Labour losses as they came in during the 2019 general election
Publicly endorses Luke Akehurst

There's no coming back from those first five words, is there?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 21, 2020, 07:23:39 AM
Surprised to see Nadia Whittome on there
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 21, 2020, 08:14:22 AM
Surprised to see Nadia Whittome on there

everyone is on there. Abbot, McDonnell, its all the MPs?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 21, 2020, 08:15:41 AM
Oh, I thought it was just the shit ones
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 21, 2020, 09:04:14 AM
There's no coming back from those first five words, is there?

And she called Momentum 'melts'. The fucking nerve.

Taking a selfie with Therese Coffey at a Shed Seven gig. Desolation.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 21, 2020, 10:20:52 AM
And she called Momentum 'melts'. The fucking nerve.

Taking a selfie with Therese Coffey at a Shed Seven gig. Desolation.

In a properly functioning democracy, it would've been a career ending moment.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 10:31:40 AM
Far worse than eating a sandwich badly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 01:28:27 PM
(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/screenshot_20201021-124456_firefox-png.189645/)

Turns out saying no to the tories and making them look unreasonable works quite well. Has Starmer tried this?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 01:33:53 PM
Imagine if Corbyn had been caught at a Shed Seven gig. Guardian would've torn him apart!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: monkfromhavana on October 21, 2020, 01:51:52 PM
Imagine if Corbyn had been caught at a Shed Seven gig. Guardian would've torn him apart!

Too edgy.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 21, 2020, 05:29:29 PM
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1318937847924076545

Any other leader...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 05:44:54 PM
This is what to expect from his supporters

Quote
I genuinely don’t think they would. 

To some extent, the leader is irrelevant in this, I would say it’s views on the party as a whole which are driving this

If they run out of evidence to show that loads of people like Keith, they will claim it's because he hasn't reformed the party image enough.

Of course, was it 'peoples views on the party as a whole' when Labour were polling 40% briefly? No, twas all Sir Keith then, England's Lion.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 06:34:42 PM
This is what to expect from his supporters

If they run out of evidence to show that loads of people like Keith, they will claim it's because he hasn't reformed the party image enough.

Of course, was it 'peoples views on the party as a whole' when Labour were polling 40% briefly? No, twas all Sir Keith then, England's Lion.

I had one claim that if the poor polling is a trend it's because the 'the constant sniping by corbyn loyalists is having an effect'. As if Corbyn supporters have any real platform from which to make their criticisms stick.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 21, 2020, 06:52:17 PM
Imagine if Corbyn had been caught at a Shed Seven gig. Guardian would've torn him apart!

Or given him a regular column in Observer Music Monthly about exciting cutting edge new sounds. If it still existed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 21, 2020, 07:01:55 PM
I had one claim that if the poor polling is a trend it's because the 'the constant sniping by corbyn loyalists is having an effect'. As if Corbyn supporters have any real platform from which to make their criticisms stick.

But that absolutely wasn't a factor when their lot were sniping at Corbyn. Oh no no no no no no.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 07:10:50 PM
I had one claim that if the poor polling is a trend it's because the 'the constant sniping by corbyn loyalists is having an effect'. As if Corbyn supporters have any real platform from which to make their criticisms stick.

It's desperate, isn't it?

When they spent all day every day 2015-2019 undermining Labour then throwing their hands up in mock outrage at Labour's polling (at points) it didn't seem to bother them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 07:20:30 PM
^ yep.

Anyway, more abstensions, this time in the lords.

https://twitter.com/natalieben/status/1318925096275398659 (https://twitter.com/natalieben/status/1318925096275398659)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on October 21, 2020, 07:38:24 PM
What the fuck are they playing at? If it wouldn't split the left vote, why is it important to rank your choices in a particular way?

Although you are expressing nine preferences, you are only casting one vote. So it would only dilute the vote if all nine of the candidates you express a vote for are eliminated. No one really knows the likelihood of this happening.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Although you are expressing nine preferences, you are only casting one vote. So it would only dilute the vote if all nine of the candidates you express a vote for are eliminated. No one really knows the likelihood of this happening.

Although if that were the underpinning factor, both the left and right factions wouldn't have fixed on a similar strategy which is based around ensuring their likely voters coalesce around a small number of candidates and championing regional voting to maximise their chances.




Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 21, 2020, 07:54:34 PM
I followed the momentum recommendations because this tactical voting lark only works if everyone follows the same recipe.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 21, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
I followed the momentum recommendations because this tactical voting lark only works if everyone follows the same recipe.

Doesn't have to be everyone, just lots.

How many seats are up for grabs? Will the 6 + disabled and youth rep be enough to get a majority?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on October 21, 2020, 08:20:34 PM
I followed the momentum recommendations because this tactical voting lark only works if everyone follows the same recipe.

Six different recipes in the correct proportions. That’s because you’re not casting six votes for who you want to elect, you’re casting one (up to nine prefs yes, but one vote). That’s the principal difference between this and the FPTP model. That the left and right are still putting up slates doesn’t change this, but it makes the result very hard to predict. Other than that a full house for either is unlikely.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on October 21, 2020, 08:28:13 PM
Doesn't have to be everyone, just lots.

How many seats are up for grabs? Will the 6 + disabled and youth rep be enough to get a majority?

Nine seats - momentum currently have 7.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 21, 2020, 08:40:38 PM
Six different recipes in the correct proportions. That’s because you’re not casting six votes for who you want to elect, you’re casting one (up to nine prefs yes, but one vote). That’s the principal difference between this and the FPTP model. That the left and right are still putting up slates doesn’t change this, but it makes the result very hard to predict. Other than that a full house for either is unlikely.

Couldn't they come up with some algorithm that tells momentum slate voters which one to put as top priority? This alternative left slate seems dumb as well, all of their blurbs were terribly written compared to the momentum lot also. Anyway, seems very likely that some cunts will get in. Staggered that odious cunts like Akehurst have any support at all.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 08:49:00 PM
It just shows you how valuable the soft left + the true Labour right think Akehurst is. He isn't just the vile warmongering piece of shit and laughable caustic psoriasis incel twitter persona but an incredibly passionate, highly organised, influential and hard working vile warmongering piece of shit and laughable caustic psoriasis incel. Imagine Falco transplanted into a viable host, man too hideous and socially stunted to ever even attempt to sexually harrass anyone.

The fact even relatively middle-brow PLP members like Stella Creasy are backing him should set off massive warning signs.

Stop the Shitty Bens from taking over Labour.

(https://i.imgur.com/rgGSK0K.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 08:53:32 PM
Stella Creasy is an utter shithouse.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on October 21, 2020, 08:55:56 PM
Couldn't they come up with some algorithm that tells momentum slate voters which one to put as top priority?

I don't know if they could, but it doesn't seem like they have. Both left and right seem to be fighting previous elections really. But who knows?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 08:59:14 PM
jermangy crozbigs
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 21, 2020, 09:43:12 PM
Quote
Woman on the news said, "MPs have voted down an attempt to provide children with meals over Christmas." My son said to me, "Mom did you vote it down or up."
Think that'd be a wake-up call, personally.

( https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1319006463470305280 )
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 09:45:06 PM
Apparently Angela Raynor called a Tory MP scum in the commons.

Apparently Keith had to rebuke her for calling for Matt Hancock's resignation so I suppose we should be thankful for Raynor's outbursts even if they are preventing Keith's Golden Path to election.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 21, 2020, 09:46:22 PM
Think that'd be a wake-up call, personally.

( https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1319006463470305280 )

Heh

Yes:

Quote
Tbh, I’d wonder what my son thought of my values if he had to ask which way I’d voted on this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 21, 2020, 09:47:59 PM
She cheered when they won.

There's a few "bless you Jess, you're so great" comments in there.

What the fuck is that about?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 09:52:16 PM
how it started
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/nintchdbpict000382529781.jpg)

how its going
(https://i.imgur.com/dgtDvzN.jpg)
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/896#noes


how its gonna go
(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fff4f0816-dc89-11e9-a836-b8a7068a08fb.jpg?crop=4907%2C7360%2C0%2C0&resize=1770)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 21, 2020, 09:58:50 PM
6 labour mp's abstained including Clive Lewis.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 21, 2020, 09:59:45 PM
Wait what? Pairing?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 10:07:01 PM
6 labour mp's abstained including Clive Lewis.
And Ed Davey!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 21, 2020, 10:16:43 PM
Wait what? Pairing?

Must be?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 10:18:26 PM
i mean to be fair whats even the point of voting when Boris's Brexit Bastard Battalion has a super-majority
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Consignia on October 21, 2020, 10:31:06 PM
i mean to be fair whats even the point of voting when Boris's Brexit Bastard Battalion has a super-majority

That's Keith's pledge for an electable Labour Party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 21, 2020, 10:47:56 PM
"We have to recognise that we voted too much during the last parliament. The public were often heard to be asking, there goes Labour, voting again, but where are the votes coming from? The british public need to be able to trust us to vote prudently, not to over-vote like we did in the run-up to the financial crash. We can't just vote our way back into power."
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 21, 2020, 10:49:05 PM
Welsh Government (grudgingly????) preparing to nationalise the Welsh train operating company.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 21, 2020, 10:51:01 PM
Proxy vote for Lewis from the landlord.

https://twitter.com/lloyd_rm/status/1319032647742640129
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 21, 2020, 11:00:36 PM
The lack of serious engagement with how Manchester shouldn't have to be begging Westminster for funds is fairly worrying. English party seems largely unable to escape hyper-centralised Anglo-British nationalism even at this point.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 21, 2020, 11:04:31 PM
i genuinely do want to go to my MPs surgery, ask him why he cares so much more about unborn babies to the point of asking questions about abortion in the commons over voting this down and then absolutely cave his fucking face in
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 21, 2020, 11:51:11 PM
....How.....how.....do you lot have a lord called "Baroness Hamwee"? I mean, that's in the "Why don't Americans have real names" thread, right?

(https://i.imgur.com/vYA8Pid.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 22, 2020, 03:15:12 PM
Something I know I keep forgetting, and hasn't been mentioned much in here recently as far as I can tell, it's that Keith's main selling point, above his pledges, above his perceived ability to resonate with the electorate and above his claims to put antisemitism to bed was sorting out party unity. At that he has failed miserably and I think it might be important to remind simps of this point where possible.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on October 22, 2020, 04:20:13 PM
Something I know I keep forgetting, and hasn't been mentioned much in here recently as far as I can tell, it's that Keith's main selling point, above his pledges, above his perceived ability to resonate with the electorate and above his claims to put antisemitism to bed was sorting out party unity. At that he has failed miserably and I think it might be important to remind simps of this point where possible.

As far as they are concerned, he has. Or is on the path to do so at least. He is achieving party unity by systematically removing all left wingers from positions of influence. Remember, 'ending factionalism' nearly always means 'by ensuring my faction wins'. Those simps will see a frontbench which all sing from the same hymn sheet, and believe that's what matters. And from a purely PR point of view, they may be right. Unless of course what's being said is totally unpopular in and of itself. Even if we (the left broadly) get a big win at the NECs, there will soon be no public facing representation of the left...left.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jockice on October 22, 2020, 05:02:28 PM
Is this a standardised letter or does 'Amber' really care?


Thank you for getting in touch. I am sorry that you would like to end your membership of the Labour Party, and I would like to thank you for all the support you have given previously.

Labour will be campaigning in Parliament and across the country for a society that works for everybody – not just a few at the very top.

 The central aim of the Labour Party is to speak up for everyone in fighting for social justice. With you on our side, we are stronger for this fight. Your experience, your passion, and your voice are vital for change – which is why I hope you will rejoin soon.

 
Our Party is more inclusive and democratic than ever before and every one of our hundreds of thousands of members has something special and unique to contribute. I hope you will consider changing your mind and decide you would like to stay so that you will be able to continue to help shape our Party’s future and hold this Tory Government to account.

 If you have been paying your membership by Direct Debit, please get in touch with your bank to ensure this payment has been cancelled.

 I can confirm I have processed your request to leave the Labour Party. Thank you again for all that you have done as a member. I hope that I can welcome you back as a member once again in the future.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 22, 2020, 06:07:57 PM
As far as they are concerned, he has. Or is on the path to do so at least. He is achieving party unity by systematically removing all left wingers from positions of influence. Remember, 'ending factionalism' nearly always means 'by ensuring my faction wins'. Those simps will see a frontbench which all sing from the same hymn sheet, and believe that's what matters. And from a purely PR point of view, they may be right. Unless of course what's being said is totally unpopular in and of itself. Even if we (the left broadly) get a big win at the NECs, there will soon be no public facing representation of the left...left.

That's true, when centrists speak of the 'broad church' days they mean 'lefties would give us their vote and not get uppity at getting nothing in return'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 22, 2020, 07:26:11 PM
Is this a standardised letter or does 'Amber' really care?


Thank you for getting in touch. I am sorry that you would like to end your membership of the Labour Party, and I would like to thank you for all the support you have given previously.

Labour will be campaigning in Parliament and across the country for a society that works for everybody – not just a few at the very top.

 The central aim of the Labour Party is to speak up for everyone in fighting for social justice. With you on our side, we are stronger for this fight. Your experience, your passion, and your voice are vital for change – which is why I hope you will rejoin soon.

 
Our Party is more inclusive and democratic than ever before and every one of our hundreds of thousands of members has something special and unique to contribute. I hope you will consider changing your mind and decide you would like to stay so that you will be able to continue to help shape our Party’s future and hold this Tory Government to account.

 If you have been paying your membership by Direct Debit, please get in touch with your bank to ensure this payment has been cancelled.

 I can confirm I have processed your request to leave the Labour Party. Thank you again for all that you have done as a member. I hope that I can welcome you back as a member once again in the future.

Good man. I am now excepting membership to the Blodwyn Razor Pig Party if you are interested.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 22, 2020, 07:29:53 PM
Remember Labour? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YYroSudUs&ab_channel=Muig)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: machotrouts on October 22, 2020, 08:31:20 PM
Is this a standardised letter or does 'Amber' really care?


Thank you for getting in touch. I am sorry that you would like to end your membership of the Labour Party, and I would like to thank you for all the support you have given previously.

Labour will be campaigning in Parliament and across the country for a society that works for everybody – not just a few at the very top.

 The central aim of the Labour Party is to speak up for everyone in fighting for social justice. With you on our side, we are stronger for this fight. Your experience, your passion, and your voice are vital for change – which is why I hope you will rejoin soon.

 
Our Party is more inclusive and democratic than ever before and every one of our hundreds of thousands of members has something special and unique to contribute. I hope you will consider changing your mind and decide you would like to stay so that you will be able to continue to help shape our Party’s future and hold this Tory Government to account.

 If you have been paying your membership by Direct Debit, please get in touch with your bank to ensure this payment has been cancelled.

 I can confirm I have processed your request to leave the Labour Party. Thank you again for all that you have done as a member. I hope that I can welcome you back as a member once again in the future.

This is the same phrasing of the email I got in April, except "rejoin" was "re-join", one of the "and"s was a comma, and "Amber" was "Claudia".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jockice on October 22, 2020, 08:45:50 PM
Good man. I am now excepting membership to the Blodwyn Razor Pig Party if you are interested.

I didn't say it was to me though. Anyway The Jockice Popular Front is the party of the future.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 22, 2020, 08:49:09 PM
I mean nobody expects a personalised email, but why make those pathetic attempts to personalise it? What sort of fuckwit is swayed by this.

I always feel like this is the weird stuff with centrism too - it's all vacuous lies and artifice and they argue for it with "Yes we know it's bollocks, but it's the right kind of bollocks!". Mate, the only people lapping this shit up is dozy cunts like you.

It's like that time I was in some shitty work global presentation and some of the biggest bullshitters were in awe lapping it up and the rest of us looked like we wanted to die.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 22, 2020, 08:58:50 PM
They were probably in awe of the bullshitting skills on show.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 22, 2020, 09:06:41 PM
They were probably in awe of the bullshitting skills on show.

I considered that of course, but if you're the only ones in awe, or paying attention, then you're just believing your own hype aren't you?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 22, 2020, 09:13:05 PM
No doubt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 22, 2020, 09:27:03 PM
I didn't say it was to me though. Anyway The Jockice Popular Front is the party of the future.

Sleepy Jockice is fake news, folks, fake news.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 22, 2020, 09:56:36 PM
HES NOT EVEN SCOTTISH REALLY.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 22, 2020, 10:33:08 PM
Quote
a society that works for everybody – not just a few at the very top.

Note the addition of 'just'.

Labour loves dirty money, tax dodgers and oligarchs again
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 23, 2020, 12:45:47 PM
Scottish votes are in the bag then

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/upload_2020-10-23_12-44-54-png.189768/)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 23, 2020, 12:49:56 PM
A man with his finger on the pulse.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 23, 2020, 12:51:26 PM
To be fair, I’m not sure what position a prospective PM of the United Kingdom should be taking on the dissolution of the United Kingdom.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 23, 2020, 12:53:18 PM
To be fair, I’m not sure what position a prospective PM of the United Kingdom should be taking on the dissolution of the United Kingdom.

Based on current polling (which obviously will change) its quite conceivable SNP get a landslide and Labour don't get a majority, but could form a coalition. At that point, SNP basically have him by the bollocks don't they?

Of course he probably wants to do better than that in Scotland, but I don't think telling Scots no outright will win them over.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 23, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
I think he should be supportive of a referendum but take no position on it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 23, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
He's usually good at taking no position on things.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 23, 2020, 01:04:40 PM
Thread's a good read and still being updated, he's gotten a grilling on Spy Cops and given some wet responses: https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1319604458263842816
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 23, 2020, 01:18:59 PM
Remember Labour? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YYroSudUs&ab_channel=Muig)
i enjoyed that
Title: Quick, circle the chairs
Post by: Buelligan on October 23, 2020, 03:25:34 PM
He's usually good at taking no position on things.

Except when it comes to second refs.  Then he can take a position (if it fucks the election prospects for the Party and enhances his own of leading it) and then forget all about it once he's leader.  Lest we forget.

I hope everyone giving him an easy ride over all the abstentions and fence-sitting, all the waving through Tory cuntitudes and smiling on the clapped out doorsteps, remembers exactly what it takes to get Starmer to take a stand.  Ambition for himself.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 23, 2020, 06:27:01 PM
David Graeber on the Extreme 'Centre': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9afwZON8dU
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 24, 2020, 12:27:09 AM
Absolutely superb, what a man!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 24, 2020, 12:38:16 AM
Shame that guy died the idiot
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 26, 2020, 10:25:00 AM
Finally some policies from Star... oh wait.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d15vl37ooch5of0/Winning%20The%20Future.pdf?dl=0

(leaflet from socialist campaign group on how to deal with rona)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 26, 2020, 10:26:05 AM
Is this the new Labour thread then.  I'm late to this new interview with James Schneider (adding his thoughts into the mix about what went wrong) but wanted to give my take as I hadn't listened to it and it was raised in the Contrapoints thread.

Seems like a nice guy (Schneider) and I enjoyed his take much more than the other two journos and to lesser degree Owen Jone's take.  There isn't any real disagreement with all three though, this wasn't the antidote to the more "damaging" interviews of Jone's et al.

Ostensibly you learn a few extra things (the gaps as Johnny YesNo pointed out);

The Corbyn team and wider Labour party/membership were horribly split over Brexit (and this precipitates problems between Corbyn and McDonnell).
The Corbyn team did not take control of the parties digital campaign or electoral campaign despite having the power to do so.
Under immense pressure from a hostile media, tempers frayed and McDonnell and Corbyn differed in approaches in how to manage this.

What you we are witnessing here across the interviews are intra-left factional takes on what happened, primarily those whose political (and don't forget careers) are aligned to either McDonnell or Corbyn.  Schneider of course is going to have a personal investment in not making a big deal out of Corbyn's failings as these are essentially his failings too (and of course the other journo's takes, which i felt were a bit miss at the time as they clearly were trying to push the McDonnell was the brains button bit too much).  He didn't mention it but we don't need anyone to tell us Corbyn did not like attending MSM interviews, these are his failings, it doesn't matter if they are hostile he should have been able to handle them better and attend.

That being said I think Schneider was much more balanced, notably on Bastani making allusions over Starmer organising "against the party", pointing out really that making the assertion that Starmer was working with outriders to progress policies he personally supports isn't a thing you can be critical of, its exactly what you (Bastani) do in your job day in day out ffs.  It's this kind of stupid politicking that needs to get in the grave, as it just makes people turn into jibbering idiots, you know who else "organised" against the party then? Diane Abbott, it's not just reactive lazy factional finger pointing that makes this the wrong thing to do, it's dangerous for the left, progressing an idea of stopping politicians disagreeing on policies from the party line and trying and influence them.  Everyone does this.  It is called politics.  Anyway fair play to Schneider for highlighting this was the case.  On Starmer he was concerned but fair, he mentioned how he would always only back 8 out of 10 statements and that not that he couldn't be trusted to deliver on his promises, but no politician should be trusted - this is a pretty decent appraisal of Starmer at this stage imo.

I was also encouraged by his vision going forward remarks towards the end saying the left needs to be more self confident in itself and look to build on what it has and look to translate and progress social policy into the country at local levels.........yes, I believe I was saying this a few months back which for some reason wasn't received to well. 

We lost the election and there were lots of mistakes, going forward you look to resolve and learn from those mistakes and grow what wins you did have, 30 MPs and a political landscape that whilst hostile to Corbyn is engaged in a lot more in leftwing issues. 

I've got a load of labour people I know that were hostile to Corbyn (for various reasons) that are now actively promoting leftwing causes.  In a large part the problem for these people was Corbyn never "belonged" to them as he "belonged" other people - this is one of a series of problems that come with focusing your campaign strongly around an individual.  Now you can go ahead and antagonise these people and tell them they were fucking stupid and selfish to not support Corbyn, call them centrist Tories, or you can be smart and get them more engaged in the leftwing politics they have an appetite for now (again this is complicated but a great thing Corbyn has done is create space for people to voice leftwing views, he had influence, massive influence in fact and this wave is still rippling, the MSM had to focus on Corbyn the individual to try and contain this is and now that foe has been vanished it is not as easy to then segway into all the stuff he was talking about as they said it was just about him - unless people keep going on about Corbyn and do their work for them).  This of course means stop talking about Corbyn and earnestly defending him (a lot of this being done by sniping at centrists and Starmer) as some kind of bulwark for the left as it is not useful because it directs energy and thought into the wrong areas.  The exact thing the anti-left collaborations want is the left to return to it's bunker mentality unable to reach anyone outside of themselves.

I take what Schneider says in being self-confident is start talking about progressive leftwing ideas in a positive and meaningful manner and stop fixating on the negative barriers to them.  You just move into a different mode of strategy that is all. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 26, 2020, 12:54:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/O3sYW7C.png)

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/playing-to-lose-who-funded-labour-2019-election-loss
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 26, 2020, 12:58:22 PM
😂😂😂
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 26, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Stunned by this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 26, 2020, 01:17:17 PM
Why?  Ian Austin, does it stun you that the man that did this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0paAee8HM) (SFW, does not include dogs) constorts with tories?  The man's a disgrace.  And Gapes, fucking hell.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 26, 2020, 01:18:38 PM
I was being ironic.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 26, 2020, 01:22:15 PM
I know you were.  I know who you are old love.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 26, 2020, 01:33:16 PM
[tag]Vladislav Surkov quietly funds thread and counter-thread[/tag]
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 26, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
I know you were.  I know who you are old love.

That sounds weirdly threatening yet soothing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 26, 2020, 01:35:57 PM
Just as I intended.  Buelligan wanders off whistling whilst casually burnishing her heated tongs.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 26, 2020, 07:55:08 PM
Kinnock shining a light on Starmer and Nandy's evil, whodofthunkit?

Starmer is pure rot. You need to leave Labour if you haven't left already. Annexing the Left and flogging off our souls.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 26, 2020, 08:35:36 PM
That Schneider fella says you shouldn't.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 26, 2020, 08:45:37 PM
That Schneider fella says you shouldn't.

The dead one from Kraftwerk?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ajsmith2 on October 27, 2020, 05:34:24 AM
Starmer involved in collision with cyclist:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-54701336
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 27, 2020, 06:23:21 AM
Shocking.

'And this is why I need a permanent chauffeur'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 27, 2020, 08:04:32 AM
Remember when some journalist scrumming around Corbyn's car got knocked by a door, and how that was all over the front pages as evidence of the thuggery of his entourage?

Media reaction to this is exactly the same.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 27, 2020, 08:08:19 AM
That Schneider fella says you shouldn't.

Yes, and he should know.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 27, 2020, 08:10:16 AM
More background:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/playing-to-lose-who-funded-labour-2019-election-loss

Quote
Playing to lose: who funded Labour’s 2019 election loss?
From straightforward second referendum groups such as Led by Donkeys to outrageously transparent Tory entities like Working 4 UK, SOLOMON HUGHES documents the range ‘non-party campaigners’ who invested in Corbynism’s failure
MAINSTREAM, the anti-Corbyn group led by former Labour MPs Ian Austin, Ivan Lewis and Mike Gapes, used Tory-led PR firm Public First to run its 2019 election activities.


Figures from the Electoral Commission on spending in the 2019 election released this month show Austin’s Mainstream spent £134,457 on campaigning and advertising in the election. That’s a lot of money for a “campaign” with no grassroots members.

They got a lot of bang for their buck, as even the most artificial public event with Austin got strong media coverage. Austin was rewarded by Boris Johnson for his turncoat campaigning with a place in the Lords.

Much of Mainstream’s election spending went on Facebook and newspaper advertising, but it also relied heavily on the Tory-oriented consultancy Public First, paying the company £23,000 for designing and running its campaign.

Receipts show Mainstream paid Public First for “strategy planning and advice,” “media relations” and “press conference support.”

Public First is run by Rachel Wolf, a former Gove adviser who co-wrote the Conservative Party’s 2019 election manifesto, and Dominic Cummings associate James Frayne.

Public First has also been rewarded with over £1 million worth of government communications contracts since the election.

Mainstream claimed to be “led by a group of people from different political backgrounds — designed to encourage a return to respectable and responsible politics and to banish extremism from British politics once and for all,” but was transparently a pro-Tory campaign, underlined by the involvement of Public First.

The Electoral Commission’s figures show a big increase in activity by “non-party campaigners,” who spent over £4m: a lot of these “campaigns” look shadowy and unaccountable, with a strong emphasis on undermining Corbyn’s Labour from all sides.

Overall spending by these “non-party campaigners” was £4,392,266. That’s greater than any of the past five elections and up 72 per cent on the 2017 election.

For context, the Tories spent around £16.5m on the 2019 election. Labour figures for 2019’s spending haven’t been registered yet, but in the 2017 election it spent £11m. So non-party spending is significant.

Typically, each of these “non-party” group’s spending involved a lot of money paid to Facebook, Google and YouTube for targeted advertising.

Campaigners also paid PR and advertising firms to help draw up their messages and polling firms to gauge their impact.

In that “third party” spend, there are two big wodges of undoubtedly pro-Corbyn money. Momentum spent £500,000, or about 20 per cent of the total, and the Real Change Lab, a short, crowdfunded campaign by Corbyn supporters to fund pro-Labour digital content in the election, spent £120,487.

But after that, many of the “third parties” are either outright unfriendly, or very unhelpful to Labour.

Alongside Mainstream’s £134,457, there was the Campaign Against Corbynism which spent £106,081 during the election.

Founded by Daily Express journalist James Bickerton, this was another “campaign” without a grassroots.

You can’t join it, or find its members busy in some community hall or above a pub; instead it spent money churning out Facebook and Twitter ads and offering comment to friendly media.

Bickerton claimed his campaign was a “cross-party group of activists,” but it was even less successful at mobilising bitter ex-Labour people than Austin’s Mainstream.

Another anti-Corbyn group, Working 4 UK Ltd spent £189,904, largely on Facebook ads, with a few grand for advertising on a pedicab and a boat trip.

Working 4 UK was founded by Suraj Sharma, who said it was “a voice for UK businesses against the impending threat of a far-left, anti-capitalist government led by Jeremy Corbyn.”

It pumped out scaremongering anti-Corbyn ads. Sharma is not just a “high-end residential developer” and “operator of Build to Rent assets,” he is also a Tory councillor, so this was a Tory-led campaign supposedly separate from the Tory Party.

Working 4 UK also used the same advertising firm — Untrodden Path Ltd — as the Campaign Against Corbynism.

Which brings us to the Brexit-related spending in the last election.

Multimillionaire Jeremy Hosking spent £484,248 on his Brexit Express campaign.

Hosking makes his money from running investment firms and is, according to the Sunday Times Rich List, the 351st richest person in Britain, with a net worth of £375m.

He was a Tory donor — giving the party £100,000 in the 2015 election. Hosking also funded the Brexit Party with £243,000 in donations.

However, with Johnson winning the Tory leadership and committing the party in the 2019 election to Get Brexit Done, Hosking’s campaign for Brexit became a campaign for the Tories rather than Nigel Farage’s party.

There were larger sums spent by second referendum campaigners.

Best for Britain — the “people’s vote” campaign led by ex-Labour minister Mark Malloch Brown, spent £422,498 on Facebook advertising.

PV Media Hub, also known as Vote for a Final Say, the breakaway second referendum group set up by Alastair Campbell, spent £156,919.

Gina Miller’s Centrum Campaign Ltd spent £199,581 on its Remain United campaign.

Scientists for EU spent £124,340. Referendum Facts Ltd (aka Infacts) spent £74,798.

Led by Donkeys, the crowdfunded “satirical” anti-Brexit campaigners, spent a very large £458,237.

That’s huge spending on Remain campaigns. Some of it comes from spontaneous, crowdfunded “remainiac” campaigners, like Led by Donkeys.

Some came from more millionaire-funded organisations, like Best for Britain or Campbell’s Vote for a Final Say group.

While all of it was “anti-Johnson” campaigning, it was not helpful for Labour: even though, thanks to a year of pressure by these campaigns, assisted by Labour MPs, Labour was the only national party in the 2019 election backing a second referendum, these groups did not fully support Labour.

Instead they all heavily promoted “tactical voting” websites, which often promoted Lib Dem candidates, even in constituencies where Labour was ahead of the Lib Dems.

They also undermined Labour in a broader way: Labour’s strategy was to support a second referendum, but to try and change the conversation away from Brexit to economic issues — social spending, the NHS, taxing the rich.

This may have been a compromised and muddy plan, but the big spending “remainiac” campaigns pushed the election back onto the second referendum vs Get Brexit Done issue, which Johnson’s Tories realised was the key to them winning the election.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 27, 2020, 08:18:19 AM
Remember when some journalist scrumming around Corbyn's car got knocked by a door, and how that was all over the front pages as evidence of the thuggery of his entourage?

I remember it well.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_u5jpyVwAAiA2N?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on October 27, 2020, 08:18:24 AM
Starmer involved in collision with cyclist:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-54701336

Quote
A spokesman for Sir Keir said he stayed at the scene until an ambulance arrived and reported the incident at a police station later that day.

In other words - he went down to see his mates so they could all get the story straight.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on October 27, 2020, 08:19:36 AM
Remember when some journalist scrumming around Corbyn's car got knocked by a door, and how that was all over the front pages as evidence of the thuggery of his entourage?

Media reaction to this is exactly the same.

If this was Corbyn there'd be at least two Panorama specials on this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 27, 2020, 08:19:51 AM
'A spokesman', tho :-)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 27, 2020, 08:21:32 AM
The cyclist shouldn't have been in the centrist reservation.


Starmer reaching out for the Clarkson fan vote?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 27, 2020, 09:13:35 AM
More background:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/playing-to-lose-who-funded-labour-2019-election-loss

What is the point of slapping a load of "remaniac funding" in on the end, what does it add, what has it got to do with the story? (I know they say because it wasn't good for Labour - are we suggesting people cannot protest Brexit now?)  Looks suspiciously like smear  by association by the Star there.

Ian Austin is a twat, and his campaign whilst somewhat (a couple of days) high profile was largely ridiculed at the time.  He could well have used a Tory PR company because Labour friendly ones generally aren't going to run campaign against the Labour Party regardless whether they like the leader or not because its bad for business somewhat. 

So the story really is men angry at Labour Party leader, leave party to attack it and used a Tory PR company to do it.

We all witnessed this at the time didn't we, it would only really be news if was a Labour PR Company. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 27, 2020, 09:28:18 AM
Starmer involved in collision with cyclist:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-54701336

(https://i.postimg.cc/65hxkf24/starmer-braking-distance.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 27, 2020, 09:32:00 AM
If only he'd been able to Steer Calmer as he passed that cyclist!!!!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 27, 2020, 09:35:31 AM
I know he wants the gammon votes but running over cyclists is taking it a bit far
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 27, 2020, 09:36:29 AM
This doesn't look good for Garmin.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 27, 2020, 09:39:15 AM
This doesn't look good for Garmin.

TomTomWatson
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 27, 2020, 09:50:15 AM
I heard starmer was signaling left but moving right.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 27, 2020, 10:26:45 AM
What is the point of slapping a load of "remaniac funding" in on the end, what does it add, what has it got to do with the story? (I know they say because it wasn't good for Labour - are we suggesting people cannot protest Brexit now?)  Looks suspiciously like smear  by association by the Star there.

It's about the dishonest tactical voting campaigns which suggested the Lib Dems were best placed in many constituencies to win and defeat the Tories and prevent Brexit, even when the Lib Dems were polling behind Labour. We all saw how that worked out, but it was pretty obvious at the time too that voting Lib Dem wasn't going to prevent Brexit. It all adds to the money spent campaigning against Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-news-latest-best-britain-brexit-vote-tool-lib-dems-a9179731.html
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 27, 2020, 11:28:59 AM
Thanks for posting that, spared me doing so.

The prize for disrupting and disarming Labour was

- All prominent remainer Tories removed from party or expelled to back benches
- 1 fewer Lib Dem MP from the already very small stock
- May removed and replaced by opportunist Get Brexit Done fathead.
- Overwhelming majority gained by the Tories Brexit at all costs party
- New Labour leader promising to not delay Brexit any longer, so basically a more pro-Brexit leader than Corbyn
- No Deal Brexit now most likely outcome in nearly exactly 2 months time.

What's the phrase.. 'That went well'?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 27, 2020, 12:17:37 PM
And don't forget the rebarbative extended experience of enduring all those people (including the present leader of the Labour Party) suddenly forgetting they had anything to do with facilitating this complete catastrophe.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: boki on October 27, 2020, 12:24:33 PM
I heard starmer was signaling left but moving right.

Bravo
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 27, 2020, 12:32:58 PM
If only he was even signalling left I could drown in his delicious lies and take him to court for dangerous driving
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on October 27, 2020, 02:17:37 PM
Thanks for posting that, spared me doing so.

The prize for disrupting and disarming Labour was

- All prominent remainer Tories removed from party or expelled to back benches
- 1 fewer Lib Dem MP from the already very small stock
- May removed and replaced by opportunist Get Brexit Done fathead.
- Overwhelming majority gained by the Tories Brexit at all costs party
- New Labour leader promising to not delay Brexit any longer, so basically a more pro-Brexit leader than Corbyn
- No Deal Brexit now most likely outcome in nearly exactly 2 months time.

What's the phrase.. 'That went well'?

I'd imagine several well paying directorships for prominent Lib Dems in the future.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 27, 2020, 03:39:08 PM
And don't forget the rebarbative extended experience of enduring all those people (including the present leader of the Labour Party) suddenly forgetting they had anything to do with facilitating this complete catastrophe.

https://youtu.be/LHlMOSQ38A4?t=57
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 27, 2020, 06:43:44 PM
The Starmer cultists have harassed journalist Jon Stone from Twitter, all for saying you don't really need an SUV in Kentish Town.

So much for a kinder, gentler politics.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 27, 2020, 07:50:24 PM
And don't forget the rebarbative extended experience of enduring all those people (including the present leader of the Labour Party) suddenly forgetting they had anything to do with facilitating this complete catastrophe.

where would one go to learn the word rebarbative. I don't fancy I have heard that word in a good 25 years and even then I never knew what it meant.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 27, 2020, 07:51:02 PM
The Starmer cultists have harassed journalist Jon Stone from Twitter, all for saying you don't really need an SUV in Kentish Town.

So much for a kinder, gentler politics.

Beige New Deal for the baby men in giant killing toys.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 27, 2020, 07:55:49 PM
where would one go to learn the word rebarbative. I don't fancy I have heard that word in a good 25 years and even then I never knew what it meant.

My mother used it quite frequently.  She put up with a great deal.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 27, 2020, 07:57:12 PM
My mother used it quite frequently.  She put up with a great deal.

"haddaway you rebarbative little so and so"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 27, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
I've been called rebarbative. Nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cold Meat Platter on October 27, 2020, 08:31:59 PM
Does anyone make rhubarb and ginger jam anymore? I used to like that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 27, 2020, 09:06:21 PM
I've been called rebarbative.

WHAT FUCKER SAID THAT
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 27, 2020, 09:39:26 PM
WHAT FUCKER SAID THAT

I CALLED HIM A REBARBATIVE AND NOW I'M CALLING YOU ONE.

REBARBATIVE!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 27, 2020, 10:26:18 PM
Lavery's been solid as a rock.

https://twitter.com/IanLaveryMP/status/1321152490633613318?s=20

Was some talk of him running for leader. Wouldn't have won. And there was some disquiet over him being paid loads of money by his union for a house. Dunno. I can tolerate a bit of moral quagmire, personally.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 27, 2020, 11:43:54 PM
The Starmer cultists have harassed journalist Jon Stone from Twitter, all for saying you don't really need an SUV in Kentish Town.

So much for a kinder, gentler politics.

Heard some of them try and say it's not technically an suv. I suppose it's really a subcompact luxury crossover, which just means 'European suv, because our roads aren't as big as the ones in America'.

Christ that's dull. It's an suv. And I'd encourage him to drive it to his donkey sanctuary and set fire to it while he's still inside it.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 27, 2020, 11:56:02 PM
Corbyn would drive a 1970s Lada. I know which one I'd like to be run over by.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blumf on October 28, 2020, 01:07:20 AM
Heard some of them try and say it's not technically an suv. I suppose it's really a subcompact luxury crossover, which just means 'European suv, because our roads aren't as big as the ones in America'.

Yeah, technically SUV is a US designation for tax and regulation reasons, but everybody uses it as a general term for oversized not-really off-roaders.

Here's a better question: Is it British made? Does Keir support British workers?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: MoonDust on October 28, 2020, 08:23:54 AM
Has anyone quit the Labour Party since Keir took the reins?

I'm still a member but my patience is wearing thin.

I'm not a Corbyn cultist who thinks he was the be-all and end-all of the Labour Party. Whether through old age or other means he wasn't going to be leader forever. One must look beyond and see the future of the party from a socialist perspective.

I was always sceptical of Keir but did give him the benefit of the doubt after he won. Party democracy and all that, let's see where this takes us.

I must admit I never expected it to be this abysmal. One of the major gripes I have is something Owen Jones pointed to, in that his line of attack as the opposition is attacking Boris Johnson, not the Tories in general. As if, what, things will be better if Boris Johnson wasn't PM but Tories were still in power?

His months of being timid and offering nothing concrete as an alternative whilst the Tories cock everything up is wearing thin.

But perhaps the worst recent thing lately was his firing of two MPs from the frontbench who voted against the Tory's armed forces Bill which effectively lets war criminals in the armed forces off the hook. I know the PLP justify their firing on grounds of them defying the party whip (although their whipping for abstain is another discussion entirely) so yes, parliamentary norms mean front bench MPs who defy the whip are usually punished. But in this instance no one cares about parliamentary norms; all they see is that two MPs voted with their conscience against a bill that would allow our armed forces to act with impunity, and the Labour Party - apparently a party of the left - punished them for it.

A point which is also surely been made already, whilst people think his legal background is a strength, I'm more distrustful, as he's one of those who think progressive politics are won in the courts and other institutions desperately in need of reform. When has he ever championed the Labour movement, trade unionism, etc. as a driver for change? He puts too much faith in the bourgeois institutions which more often than not work against the very people Labour is supposed to represent, and no amount of well-intentioned left-leaning lawyers is going to make the courts change the problems in the UK. That comes from the political arena, not the judicial arena. Surely we know that from across the pond where the left poured all their effort in defeating Trump in the courts, not by political means.

I'm at the end of my tether, honestly. Why should I bother staying on as a member?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 08:26:26 AM
> 100,000 have quit and I urge you to. Anyone who says otherwise is a centrist dinner lady.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 28, 2020, 08:47:42 AM
> 100,000 have quit and I urge you to. Anyone who says otherwise is a centrist dinner lady.

No, they're not. The centrist dinner ladies want you to leave. Stay in the party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 28, 2020, 08:50:53 AM
What are membership numbers looking like, out of interest?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: MoonDust on October 28, 2020, 09:00:49 AM
I read an article in the latest Tribune about hospitality workers getting really organised and unionising during this pandemic. I prefer the term "militant dinner ladies".

And yes, there is a sense the centrists want the left to leave. But groups like the Socialist Campaign Group give me hope that all is not lost.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 28, 2020, 09:15:31 AM
What are membership numbers looking like, out of interest?

I check periodically but it's very hard to tell as it would seem official numbers haven't been released. This has resulted in spurious numbers from the left including claims of 300k from 'leaked documents' on skwawkbox box to the leadership themselves claiming numbers have increased despite using numbers slightly lower than at the end of 2019.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 09:19:15 AM
Why doesn't somebody just ask for the numbers?  This isn't Stalinist Russia.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 09:28:11 AM
No, they're not. The centrist dinner ladies want you to leave. Stay in the party.

I don't like the party. It's not for me.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 09:28:45 AM
I read an article in the latest Tribune about hospitality workers getting really organised and unionising during this pandemic. I prefer the term "militant dinner ladies".

And yes, there is a sense the centrists want the left to leave. But groups like the Socialist Campaign Group give me hope that all is not lost.

It's hope that kills you.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 28, 2020, 09:48:36 AM
Why doesn't somebody just ask for the numbers?  This isn't Stalinist Russia.

Labour went for decades not declaring their membership figures in the past; essentially concealing a massive decline (in the millions, IIRC), then started declaring again in the 1980's (when it was down to six figures). Could be a return to the good old days of hiding a massive decline. The Labour wiki page figure of 580,000 is from April 2020 and the previous figure from January 2020 was 585,000 (from memory).

Where's the figures for this alleged ">100,000"?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 28, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
No, they're not. The centrist dinner ladies want you to leave. Stay in the party.

I've never been a member of the Labour Party and I've fucking left.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 28, 2020, 10:22:04 AM
RE: membership figures, according to this NEC report (https://labourlist.org/2020/09/the-last-full-meeting-before-labours-new-ruling-body-is-elected-alice-perrys-nec-report/) from September Labour has approx. 560,000 members.

I found this article interesting, mostly because it says all the same things I've been saying about Brexit and elections, plus it's written by someone on the left: https://labourlist.org/2020/10/its-time-to-bust-the-brexit-betrayal-myth-of-the-labour-left/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 28, 2020, 10:43:26 AM
It fails to mention the hijacking and weaponisation of the remain campaign simply to oust Corbyn; that was no "myth". It was not "triangulation" to recognise why the red wall voted to leave (which has far more to do with the effects of Tory austerity and neglect in their areas).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 28, 2020, 11:03:24 AM
The Starmer cultists have harassed journalist Jon Stone from Twitter, all for saying you don't really need an SUV in Kentish Town.

So much for a kinder, gentler politics.
seems he deactivated his account which seems a bit of an overreaction to a group of centrist dads going "well actually I live in Haringey and I have two! Such reverse snobbery!"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 11:32:23 AM
RE: membership figures, according to this NEC report (https://labourlist.org/2020/09/the-last-full-meeting-before-labours-new-ruling-body-is-elected-alice-perrys-nec-report/) from September Labour has approx. 560,000 members.

That's pretty vague, in fairness.  Using words like approximately and around, giving no dates, always the sign of someone seeking to disguise or hide something.  What somebody needs to do is say something like, on the first of each and every month, I will publish the exact number of fully paid-up members who are entitled to vote.  Surely, in this age of computers, that is not unrealistic.

It fails to mention the hijacking and weaponisation of the remain campaign simply to oust Corbyn; that was no "myth". It was not "triangulation" to recognise why the red wall voted to leave (which has far more to do with the effects of Tory austerity and neglect in their areas).

Indeed it does, I wonder why.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 28, 2020, 11:36:09 AM
I quit my membership as soon as Corbyn lost to be honest. No shame about that for me.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 28, 2020, 11:57:04 AM
Just seeing it was a Deliveroo worker Kieth knocked down while trying to perform a u-turn. Further evidence he doesn't care about the precariatat.

https://newsopener.com/uk/keir-starmer-crashed-into-cyclist-while-trying-to-perform-a-u-turn/amp/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8885945/Sir-Keir-Starmer-crashed-cyclist-trying-perform-u-turn-witnesses-claim.html
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 28, 2020, 12:16:57 PM
EHRC report tomorrow. Today's like Christmas Eve for cunts. Bet certain types will be setting their alarm clocks nice and early.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 28, 2020, 12:37:20 PM
this ham-man's not for turning (safely and checking for other road-users)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 28, 2020, 12:40:35 PM
He is very reactive, to the point of dealing with things after they've happened. Would've probably failed his hazard awareness.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 28, 2020, 01:10:28 PM
RE: membership figures, according to this NEC report (https://labourlist.org/2020/09/the-last-full-meeting-before-labours-new-ruling-body-is-elected-alice-perrys-nec-report/) from September Labour has approx. 560,000 members.

I found this article interesting, mostly because it says all the same things I've been saying about Brexit and elections, plus it's written by someone on the left: https://labourlist.org/2020/10/its-time-to-bust-the-brexit-betrayal-myth-of-the-labour-left/

One fairly serious clanging problem:

Quote
it suggests that saboteurs pushed the party from a Brexit position that would have won the election to one that was bound to lose. It does not add up.

That's a straw man. I didn't see anyone privately confident of that, especially not after the Tories defeated the Brexit party by becoming them. What is clear is that a policy which clearly meant prolonging the Brexit outcome further was devastatingly unpopular vs a campaign solely about saying let's get it over with. It is also clear this change of position was imposed against the leadership's wishes and better judgement, and partly orchestrated by Keir Starmer, a man who apparently knows all about winning.

It's easy to construct a convincing rebuttal against a stupid point of view that wasn't widely held.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 28, 2020, 01:46:59 PM
It is also clear this change of position was imposed against the leadership's wishes and better judgement, and partly orchestrated by Keir Starmer, a man who apparently knows all about winning.

Imposed? This line gets put about a lot, but it's overly weighted against Starmer, for obvious reasons. Corbyn was leader of the party, and his team had control of it's decision making. Starmer, among many others, was pushing for a disastrous position, but it was Corbyn's choice and Corbyn's responsibility to get right, and his terrible tactical manoeuvring in that area cost Labour - and the left - incredibly heavily. I despise Starmer and his ilk and admire Corbyn greatly, but I will not excuse Corbyn for making such a grave error of leadership, even if the blame is not entirely his, and must be split between Corbyn's team, the PLP and, lest we forget, the membership. All three are responsible for our current mess, and Corbyn should not get a free pass for something so colossal. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 28, 2020, 01:49:17 PM
It's hope that kills you.
You must be immortal
Title: I would never throw him off a church tower
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 01:52:54 PM
Imposed? This line gets put about a lot, but it's overly weighted against Starmer, for obvious reasons. Corbyn was leader of the party, and his team had control of it's decision making. Starmer, among many others, was pushing for a disastrous position, but it was Corbyn's choice and Corbyn's responsibility to get right, and his terrible tactical manoeuvring in that area cost Labour - and the left - incredibly heavily. I despise Starmer and his ilk and admire Corbyn greatly, but I will not excuse Corbyn for making such a grave error of leadership, even if the blame is not entirely his, and must be split between Corbyn's team, the PLP and, lest we forget, the membership. All three are responsible for our current mess, and Corbyn should not get a free pass for something so colossal. 

Why not?  He gets a free pass on everything else.  He's been untouchable right through the piece, why should we pin any blame onto him for this alleged failing when he's walked free of criticism for so long?  Take your blame and pin it back on poor harried Keith, the sin donkey.
Title: Re: I would never throw him off a church tower
Post by: Kelvin on October 28, 2020, 01:57:24 PM
Why not?  He gets a free pass on everything else.  He's been untouchable right through the piece, why should we pin any blame onto him for this alleged failing when he's walked free of criticism for so long?  Take your blame and pin it back on poor harried Keith, the sin donkey.

Pin it on all of them. Pin it on Keith absolutely, highlight his hypocrisy, incompetence and deviousness, shout it from the rooftops, call a cunt a cunt.  But don't forget that Corbyn and the membership were all to blame too, just as much, in their own different ways.   
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: DeadJefferson on October 28, 2020, 02:01:23 PM
EHRC report tomorrow. Today's like Christmas Eve for cunts. Bet certain types will be setting their alarm clocks nice and early.

Can't wait, it's like Christmas coming two months early.

Tick tock, tick tock.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 28, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
Imposed? This line gets put about a lot, but it's overly weighted against Starmer, for obvious reasons. Corbyn was leader of the party, and his team had control of it's decision making. Starmer, among many others, was pushing for a disastrous position, but it was Corbyn's choice and Corbyn's responsibility to get right, and his terrible tactical manoeuvring in that area cost Labour - and the left - incredibly heavily. I despise Starmer and his ilk and admire Corbyn greatly, but I will not excuse Corbyn for making such a grave error of leadership, even if the blame is not entirely his, and must be split between Corbyn's team, the PLP and, lest we forget, the membership. All three are responsible for our current mess, and Corbyn should not get a free pass for something so colossal.

Every fucking cunt was to blame, myself included to a very small degree, in congratulating Nick Brown for keeping people voting against May's deal. In retrospect we should have backed May's deal—but then that might have fucked the cat completely as well. The SNP/LDs should have voted for a Customs Union. It goes on … McDonnell has more blame than most—which he's accepted fwiw. Corbyn was the only one saying the right things … as usual. But I don't think there was anything he could do, really. What could he have done? Said: we must vote for May's deal??
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 28, 2020, 02:13:23 PM
Brexit fucked us. It fucked all of us. There are probably 10,000 people in the whole country who won't get fucked by Brexit. They'll just get richer.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 28, 2020, 02:26:10 PM
No, they're not. The centrist dinner ladies want you to leave. Stay in the party.
Leave and join an organisation that agrees with you. Labour does not.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 02:40:49 PM
EHRC report tomorrow. Today's like Christmas Eve for cunts. Bet certain types will be setting their alarm clocks nice and early.

I don't know why, what can they possibly gain whatever it says? 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 28, 2020, 03:28:29 PM
I don't know why, what can they possibly gain whatever it says?

A week-long self-sustaining symphony of disingenuous pearl-clutching?

Thank fuck I never read the guardian any more. Twitter might be a particular trial.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 04:03:22 PM
Heheh, exactly.  I mean what else can they throw?  And to what end?  The only people looking forward to such an event are obviously imbeciles.  And, whilst I feel quite compassionate towards imbeciles, I am not even vaguely interested in their opinions, political or moral.  Unless they're funny, of course.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 28, 2020, 04:05:38 PM
Every fucking cunt was to blame, myself included to a very small degree, in congratulating Nick Brown for keeping people voting against May's deal. In retrospect we should have backed May's deal—but then that might have fucked the cat completely as well. The SNP/LDs should have voted for a Customs Union. It goes on … McDonnell has more blame than most—which he's accepted fwiw. Corbyn was the only one saying the right things … as usual. But I don't think there was anything he could do, really. What could he have done? Said: we must vote for May's deal??

Corbyn was an evil remainiac to brexiteers and an evil brexiteer to remainers. In a country split pretty much down the middle, too few voters trusted him. And why was that? Could it have been the constant smears, perhaps?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 28, 2020, 05:41:40 PM
EHRC report tomorrow. Today's like Christmas Eve for cunts. Bet certain types will be setting their alarm clocks nice and early.

That came out of the blue. Will be interesting to see what it says. My expectation is that it will be sufficiently nuanced that all sides will be able to say it confirms their existing position.  This in fact has already started with Ashworth saying “I haven’t seen the confidential report, but it’s a disgrace”.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 28, 2020, 06:40:35 PM
Apparently, the Labour leadership saw the draft report in July.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on October 28, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
It's 2020. Everyone will ignore what it says and follow their gut.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 08:39:58 PM
You must be immortal

I hope so....

....


AGHHHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 08:41:03 PM
I don't know why, what can they possibly gain whatever it says?

It will be a vague tutting at Corbyn without sticking any knife in, with nary a glance at the truth culprits and liars.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 28, 2020, 10:12:42 PM
The Guardian is already wanking itself into a frenzy. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/28/labour-figures-braced-antisemitism-inquiry-rule-party-acted-unlawfully
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 28, 2020, 10:32:45 PM
Disgusting liars
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 28, 2020, 10:39:21 PM
Hope Ashworth and Oldknow get crucified.

Joking. Of course they won't.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 28, 2020, 10:58:09 PM
Don't wind yourself up about it. Don't give them the dignity of your interest. They'll have their week of hysteria and then it will vanish like the ephemeron it is. Ignore.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 28, 2020, 11:18:57 PM
As much as I dislike Jonathan Ashworth, even the headline the Guardian are using - Antisemitism inquiry is Labour's most shameful moment, says senior MP - is so dishonest.

Quote
Asked if the investigation was the most shameful moment in the party’s history, Jonathan Ashworth, the shadow health secretary, agreed that “it probably was, yes”.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 28, 2020, 11:20:45 PM
biggest cunt in the world

https://twitter.com/LordIanAustin/status/1321532372916019200

he even changed his twitter HANDLE to lord
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 28, 2020, 11:28:09 PM
He's not the biggest cunt in the world, he's a wanky sad no-mates little cunt that, even when he's behaving publicly like a class traitor, is still uninteresting.  Don't waste your time reading his miserable irrelevant words, that's my advice.  #dogbotherer

Jonathan Ashworth is an awful fucking cunt and all.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 28, 2020, 11:31:43 PM
The video of him bullying a jewish professor is pretty incredible. The world we live in is so confusing yet so transparent to me, it's amazing we haven't all nuked each other.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 28, 2020, 11:38:33 PM
Sorry, did nobody hear what I just said?

IG-FUCKING-NORE IT.

It is SHIT for CUNTS.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 28, 2020, 11:42:10 PM
Alright.



What should we be learning from the experience of Manchester and Burnham?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 28, 2020, 11:43:12 PM
Calling tories cunts is maybe a vote winner?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 12:32:24 AM
Alright.



What should we be learning from the experience of Manchester and Burnham?

That if we had to have a centrist leading the party in 2020, I wish it was Burnham.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 07:35:15 AM
He's not the biggest cunt in the world, he's a wanky sad no-mates little cunt that, even when he's behaving publicly like a class traitor, is still uninteresting.  Don't waste your time reading his miserable irrelevant words, that's my advice.  #dogbotherer

Jonathan Ashworth is an awful fucking cunt and all.

He's also going to have to spend the rest of his life among people who don't think he belongs. That is a significant punishment.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:46:51 AM
Sorry, did nobody hear what I just said?

IG-FUCKING-NORE IT.

It is SHIT for CUNTS.

Keeps rearing its apocalyptically dishonest and smug head though doesn't it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 07:55:15 AM
I think it is worth talking about, at least for a day, as I suspect there will be a big difference between the content of the report and how it is perceived. The trailers are already using the language of "indirect discrimination" which points to a more complex narrative than the one that the Labour right and their chums in the press want us to believe.

But, no, the forum police have decided. Fuck you, bye.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:57:42 AM
I think it is worth talking about, at least for a day, as I suspect there will be a big difference between the content of the report and how it is perceived. The trailers are already using the language of "indirect discrimination" which points to a more complex narrative than the one that the Labour right and their chums in the press want us to believe.

But, no, the forum police have decided. Fuck you, bye.

Indirect discrimination = no discrimination. Pancreas indirectly shut down conversation about this topic = Pancreas did not shut down conversation about this topic.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 29, 2020, 07:59:54 AM
I think we need to look seriously at defunding the forum police.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 29, 2020, 09:32:59 AM
I think it is worth talking about, at least for a day, as I suspect there will be a big difference between the content of the report and how it is perceived. The trailers are already using the language of "indirect discrimination" which points to a more complex narrative than the one that the Labour right and their chums in the press want us to believe.

But, no, the forum police have decided. Fuck you, bye.

Sorry, I don't actually expect people to obey me. Carry on.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 09:52:18 AM
Don't you tell me what to do.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 10:19:55 AM
Seems like only two instances of actual AS so far. Indirect discrimination is a complex thing. I hope the report goes into detail about when these things happened - all that's been said so far is that it has continued under Starmer. A key question is what was going on before Corbyn came on the scene.

Is the report itself out yet? Or is it just hearsay so far.

I think we need to look seriously at defunding the forum police.

That would be nice, sick of them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 29, 2020, 10:22:02 AM
A pdf of the EHRC investigation is available here (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/investigation-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
Thanks -found it eventually! (Guardian link was to a local file on their hard drive... 'ksake).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 10:29:22 AM
Sorry, I don't actually expect people to obey me. Carry on.

Tread lightly, for you tread on our dreams.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 10:35:02 AM
I love that.  I literally have the cloths of heaven on the end of my bed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on October 29, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
Perhaps the main thing to comment on would be that the report suggests an improved complaints service, something that was happening as the left gained more control of the party but I'm guessing has largely stopped now in favour of the old system of doing fuck all unless their was some political capital to be made.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 10:42:00 AM
Agree. The report implies, but doesn't go far enough to state explicitly, that the crap complaints system has always been crap. So if Corbyn takes the rap then so should ever other Leader in the party's history. They seem to have been condemned for improving their sexual harassment procedures to a greater extent than those for antisemitism. So from a legal POV they'd be in a better place if they'd not bothered themselves with sexual harassment. I accept that the system was (and is) crap, and this can lead to some groups being disadvantaged more than others, and this constitutes indirect indiscrimination which is illegal. But the argument that it got worse under Corbyn seems to be weak (and things did actually seem to improve).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 29, 2020, 10:43:57 AM
Response from Corbyn:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY91W8V5/JC.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 29, 2020, 10:45:40 AM
Fucking hell, this is almost as forensic as Keir:

Quote
There is evidence of LOTO staff being directly involved in the decision to investigate the second complaint of antisemitism made against Ken Livingstone. The Labour Party confirmed to us that a decision to ‘go to Disputes’, that is, to the NEC Disputes Panel, which was described as having been made ‘higher up’, was likely to refer to the decision having been made by LOTO and the General Secretary’s Office (GSO). It therefore appears that LOTO staff, and potentially GSO staff, interfered in the decision to investigate the conduct of Ken Livingstone.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 10:47:32 AM
But isn't "going to disputes" the actual procedure? So LOTO stating the procedure = interference??

According to the report, Corbyn's statement is an antisemitic trope.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 10:49:31 AM
What a vast waste of everyone's fucking time this is going to be.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 10:54:46 AM
Deadly pandemic that the government are largely ignoring, resulting in the projected deaths of thousands, cigs

No-deal Brexit that's going to devastate the industries that remain in business despite massive mishandling of the above, cigs

Government taken over by an executive with plans to insulate itself from legal and parliamentary accountability and cement itself at the head of a one-party state, cigs
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 11:16:27 AM
Deadly pandemic that the government are largely ignoring, resulting in the projected deaths of thousands, cigs

No-deal Brexit that's going to devastate the industries that remain in business despite massive mishandling of the above, cigs

Government taken over by an executive with plans to insulate itself from legal and parliamentary accountability and cement itself at the head of a one-party state, cigs

That's why we should never listen to stinky people you disagree with. Blodwyn's Razor.  You can smell them a MILE OFF.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 11:30:33 AM
Quote
Dear Paul Calf,

This morning, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) published their report into Antisemitism in the Labour Party.

The report, which we would urge you to read in full, can be found here.

We want to thank the EHRC for all of their work in the last year and a half, and the Labour Party staff who have worked tirelessly and constructively with the Commission's investigation.

The report's conclusions are clear and stark. The Commission has found that the Labour Party has breached the Equality Act in terms of unlawful harassment and indirect discrimination towards the Jewish community.

This is a day of shame for the Labour Party. We have failed the Jewish community, our members, our supporters and the British people. That is why, on behalf of the Labour Party, We want to apologise for all of the pain and grief that has been caused to the Jewish community these past few years.

It is also why we want to make this promise that we will act. Never again will Labour fail to tackle the poison of antisemitism or will we lose the trust of the Jewish community.

We accept the Commission's report in full and we will implement all of the recommendations in full, and we have already instructed staff to start taking this work forward.

But, we must go further. We need to change the Labour Party's culture.

It is on all us to make sure that the Labour Party is, once again, an open and welcoming place for people from all backgrounds and all communities.

Under our leadership, zero-tolerance of antisemitism will mean precisely that. There can be no more denials and no more excuses.

We will repair the breach and we will restore trust. We know it will take time and hard work, but we will do it. That is our mission and it is the commitment we made when we were elected.

We will only consider it a success when those members who left our Party because of antisemitism feel safe to return and when we no longer see the words "Labour" and "antisemitism" in the same sentence.

As a party member, I hope we can count on your support in implementing the EHRC's recommendations over coming weeks and months. If at any time you have any questions please send them to enquiries@labour.org.uk.

Keir Starmer

Leader of the Labour Party

Fuck off Kieth, you snide wooden ass-cancer cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Brave Sir Keith
...when we no longer see the words "Labour" and "antisemitism" in the same sentence...

Now we've got a bland, non-threatening and thoroughly neutered empty suit like you in charge I'm guessing we won't be hearing this nearly as much.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 11:41:25 AM
Ugh, Emma Kennedy has retweeted some shit from Tracy Ann-Oberman

The EHRC concluded there was indirect antisemitism and not institutional antisemitism, and all the comments are 'yaaaas kweeen, love you and Rachael Riley'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 11:44:02 AM
I can't bear to look at the smug streak of piss that is EmKen's Twitter dribble any more.
Title: I feel so proud of Corbyn right now
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 11:45:19 AM
Why are you lovely lads even reading it?  You don't need to, predictable and expected ugliness from predicable and ugly people.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 29, 2020, 11:46:41 AM
Why are you lovely lads even reading it?  You don't need to, predictable and expected ugliness from predicable and ugly people.

Quote

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1321776852894101504

UPDATED: Keir Starmer says people who claim anti-Semitism allegations are exaggerated belong "nowhere near the Labour Party".

It comes minutes after Jeremy Corbyn said anti-Semitism  claims have been "dramatically overstated for political reasons"

Because if Corbyn is expelled or has the whip removed, it will have huge implications for the Labour Party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 11:47:59 AM
I am dumbfounded apparently intelligent people want to spend their free time gawking at that sewer. Save yourself valuable time and hit yourself with a hammer until it really hurts.

The above reasoning doesn't explain why anyone needs to pay attention to Emma Kennedy, Riley or Obermann.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 11:55:47 AM
Look I just like to be annoyed by things sometimes.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 12:03:19 PM
Keith quoted in the graun as saying anyone who reckons this is being overplayed for factional purposes shouldn’t be anywhere near the party. So that’s me out.

Good luck to the lot of you, you’ll need it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 12:09:22 PM
Keith's an absolute turd in the bath.

Look I just like to be annoyed by things sometimes.

I know, by god I do, it's why you like me so much.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 12:15:48 PM
Keith quoted in the graun as saying anyone who reckons this is being overplayed for factional purposes shouldn’t be anywhere near the party. So that’s me out.

Good luck to the lot of you, you’ll need it.

One of the replies to that was 'why do you keep asking me to rejoin then?'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 29, 2020, 12:18:32 PM
I can't bear to look at the smug streak of piss that is EmKen's Twitter dribble any more.
Oh come on she's a comedy genius

Quote from: demented centrist bastard
Nobody needs a gun at a polling station.

Nobody.

Ever.

Made me chuckle anyway. All hopping mad in her cottage there.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 12:24:25 PM
That obermann tweet is demented

Quote
VINDICATED. All times I was told by Corbyns Labour Crew I was lying.Holocaust never happened I was aZio shill Rothschild whore, a tax evading paedophile.For leaving @uklabourwhen Livingstone called Hitler a ZIONIST & got away with it. For being told I LIED

All of the stuff theres right-wing tropes. Nothing about criticising the IDF or anything. Absolute delusion she got any of that from the uk left
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 12:26:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if some horrible angry cunts sent her some absolute shit. To claim it was somehow representative of the 'the left' is pure distortion though.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 12:31:08 PM
It's like conflating the actions of an individual or individuals, with those of a discrete group (and you know where that gets you).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 12:43:12 PM
One of the replies to that was 'why do you keep asking me to rejoin then?'.

Haha that’s very good. They’ve stopped emailing me now, so I’m officially beyond the pale labour-wise.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 12:46:09 PM
Just spent five minutes looking at the wankfest on the Guardian website and now I need a shower.

Still can't see what the actual examples of antisemitism were, but that's not really important. Margaret Hodge telling us how great she is is though.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 12:50:42 PM
Did you notice the stage being set for Luciana Berger’s return and/or parachuting into a safe seat. I’m sure it had nothing to do with leaving to form Chuk:tig-redux and generating bad press for corbyn’s labour.

See also: Ian Austin receiving a peerage.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: EOLAN on October 29, 2020, 12:55:57 PM
Read a reasonable portion of the report so far. The tone of the report is very much in support of those that would be in line with Starmer's approach on this matter. Does look to highlight how bad things were under the Corbyn leadership. 

The actual substance of the report seems to be a lot milder. Largely in line with what others have said that complaints and training protocols weren't as being strongly implemented as other areas or more specifically sexual harassment.
Report seems very eager not to give any comparisons before Corbyn's leadership for comparisons and is using the improvements in sexual harassments claims as the  primary example of indirect discrimination. In effect; it would have been better to have improved all processes only mildly and consistently than to improve all at least mildly but inconsistently improve others to a far greater degree.

There are some learnings and good insights to take from the report; but the tone in which it is officially communicated and how it will be utilised is way out of line with the findings.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 29, 2020, 01:09:44 PM
Corbyn suspended.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 01:11:16 PM
Fuck these people.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 01:12:36 PM
Disgraceful. Keith is bathing in ian austin's piss now
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 01:13:27 PM
Can the bar sink any lower?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Chollis on October 29, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
gonna go ain't he
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 01:15:19 PM
Antisemitism! Everywhere! I can't believe it! So much antisemitism! Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 29, 2020, 01:15:32 PM
Corbyn suspended.

He absolutely knew this would happen based on that statement (which i agree with before people jump on me). Is it really worth him continuing to fight this battle though?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on October 29, 2020, 01:17:35 PM
Are you admitting you massively cocked up yet thugler? Just wondering.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: phantom_power on October 29, 2020, 01:17:45 PM
Does the report mention the interference from party members to try and implicate the leadereship? All that stuff that came out earlier in the year?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 29, 2020, 01:21:59 PM
Are you admitting you massively cocked up yet thugler? Just wondering.

I admit that i had 2 poor choices, that’s all. Very much doubt rlb would have been a resounding success, nor do i understand how this would have changed the report or how the reaction to it was going to go regardless. I’m hopeful that a decent candidate for leader will emerge. Corbyn insisting on falling on his sword over this is pointless i’m afraid, i agree with him but noone who doesn’t already is going to change their mind based on his statement.

Couldn’t he at least say something more specific so that he could challenge his suspension. It’s a vague phrasing which plays into the hands of cunts saying ‘he’s minimising it’
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: LynnBenfield69 on October 29, 2020, 01:25:48 PM
That may be true but if I'd also spent my career opposing racism in all its forms only to be framed as BRITAIN'S NEXT HITLER I'd probably insist of defending myself. So would you.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rainbow Moses on October 29, 2020, 01:27:07 PM
Are you admitting you massively cocked up yet thugler? Just wondering.

lol, as if Long-Bailey would have been anything other than an abysmal failure. With Starmer, you're still ensuring a Tory government for the next 10 years, but at least he has the slither of a chance (or the illusion of hope).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 29, 2020, 01:27:49 PM
A chance of what exactly?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 01:28:05 PM
Margaret Hodge on the radio there saying "culture of antisemitism" over and over again and praising Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting in the most endlessly disingenuous way possible to make sure there is never any left wing in the UK ever again and it's just a piece of ham with a haircut straightening his tie.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 01:29:48 PM
Corbyn suspended.

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1321799900003225601

For his statement.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Mr_Simnock on October 29, 2020, 01:29:58 PM
There is ALWAYS going be a left wing element to UK politics
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bobloblawslawbomb on October 29, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Has anyone quit the Labour Party since Keir took the reins?.

I'm at the end of my tether, honestly. Why should I bother staying on as a member?

Think you probably have your answer now. Fuck them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 01:31:21 PM
This is part of what I said last month. The right of the party don't just want to take over control and keep the left to the fringes like Blair did. This time they want to bury the left. The project includes never allowing a socialist to ever lead Labour again.

In the next few years the PLP and Labour HQ will be overhauled.

They probably figure these actions will alienate a vast swathe of the membership which they will be entirely happy with doing as they want Labour to be backed by millionaires and gatekeeped by rich centrists in the PLP. A higher membership means these PLP creeps would gradually start to be accountable for their actions.

This is all about removing the desire of the left to use Labour as a vehicle to achieve its aims. If any of you had any lingering doubts about the intentions of this snake, they should be resolved now.

I was hopeful the NEC elections would be a good time to kick back. I am afraid our only chance now is a dismal election defeat with Starmer in charge of it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
There is ALWAYS going be a left wing element to UK politics
not in labour though. they've just suspended the figure of a huge resurgence of youth membership of the party. it can fuck off as far as im concerned. its just a load of self-interested cunts like the US Dems now
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 01:34:00 PM
There is ALWAYS going be a left wing element to UK politics

In a homeopathic remedy kind of way
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 01:36:18 PM
I think this is the official end of any legitimate left wing politics in the UK.

Anyone who is even slightly left of starving schoolchildren during half term and punting brown people into the channel are going to be labelled as extremist agitators, probably to the point of criminalising collective bargaining and socialist gatherings/peaceful protests.

Violence is sadly the only way forward to a better future. Bummer.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ishantbekeepingit on October 29, 2020, 01:39:24 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/FsB2xQM/IMG-20201029-104349.jpg)
Twat.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rainbow Moses on October 29, 2020, 01:40:17 PM
A chance of what exactly?

You know exactly of what, but you're pretending to be obtuse.

In reality, Starmer has got very little chance of winning an election because you shouldn't underestimate the number of people who are willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt and say "they're just trying their best in unprecedented circumstances", especially when they believe the alternative is Britain-hating, SJW communism. But that's still better than the nothing Labour would have under RLB.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: JohnnyCouncil on October 29, 2020, 01:43:15 PM
Stove all politicians heads in. I hate that this is where my mind ends up now in any political debate/trail of thought, but it always does, not fair necessarily or rational but it's where I am. Won't be voting again.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 01:43:29 PM
In reality, Starmer has got very little chance of winning an election because you shouldn't underestimate the number of people who are willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt and say "they're just trying their best in unprecedented circumstances", especially when they believe the alternative is Britain-hating, SJW communism. But in my view that's still better than the "nothing" that I am guessing Labour would have under RLB.

fixed for you


In truth a puffy neoliberal funded by corporate backers isn't a brilliant contrast to the Tories in any context.  Not sure why we should all be overjoyed about what Labour could now grow into.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 29, 2020, 01:47:17 PM
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1321799900003225601

For his statement.

Bloody hell.

(https://i.imgur.com/LOd3201.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 01:47:31 PM
So the EHRC recommends decisions should not be political or made by the leader and the leader's response to this is to make a politically motivated sacking?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rainbow Moses on October 29, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
fixed for you

Well, sure, but clearly the thread for reserved, mature debate is elsewhere. Or is making an absolute statement only acceptable when a true-red socialist does it?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 01:49:32 PM
So now the party exists solely for the purpose of legitimising the actions of the fascists in charge of us where do we go?

They've destroyed everything.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 01:49:39 PM
Has to be Greens next elections, people.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
Well, sure, but clearly the thread for reserved, mature debate is elsewhere. Or is making an absolute statement only acceptable when a true-red socialist does it?

You're like a breath of fresh here mate, and not at all a stale old fart that's been breathed in and out hundreds of times before.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 01:51:42 PM
The only way back for the left now is for Starmer to decline to a Miliband style defeat or for the economic situation to spiral so rapidly out of control that the Tories themselves are forced to adopt socialist policies in order to prevent riots. And Starmer will be there at the vanguard saying 'there is absolutely no excuse for disorder of any kind'

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 29, 2020, 01:52:21 PM
A detail that seems to have been missed is that interference by LOTO was made in order to get McNicol's NEC to actually do anything. The stalling bunch of cunts.

He's still got that massive crowd funded legal fund hasn't he? Take the cunts to court.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 01:52:58 PM
Greens won't win though, that's why we're continually forced to rely on the useless Labour Party throwing us a bone (or the brief attempt to try and force Labour to turn vaguely leftwards, to which we've seen the response).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 01:54:41 PM
Or is making an absolute statement only acceptable when a true-red socialist does it?

No idea what you are referring to, sorry.  I'm a bit behind current memes and stuff.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 29, 2020, 01:56:51 PM
You know exactly of what, but you're pretending to be obtuse.

In reality, Starmer has got very little chance of winning an election because you shouldn't underestimate the number of people who are willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt and say "they're just trying their best in unprecedented circumstances", especially when they believe the alternative is Britain-hating, SJW communism. But that's still better than the nothing Labour would have under RLB.

Labour has nothing right now. RLB would not have destroyed the party like is predictably happening now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rainbow Moses on October 29, 2020, 01:57:58 PM
In truth a puffy neoliberal funded by corporate backers isn't a brilliant contrast to the Tories in any context.  Not sure why we should all be overjoyed about what Labour could now grow into.

The problem is endemic to the left. You're staring down the barrel of a gun and you all want to do is split hairs until someone actually shoots you in the face.

You're like a breath of fresh here mate, and not at all a stale old fart that's been breathed in and out hundreds of times before.

Sorry, aren't you the one that people always confuse with another poster?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 01:59:24 PM
That's the second innocent person with a bike Starmer's attacked this week.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 29, 2020, 02:00:00 PM
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
No, because it was very obvious this was going to happen. For those people who spent the last year hysterically telling everyone they had to stay in "the party", then perhaps.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:00:49 PM
No, because it was very obvious this was going to happen. For those people who spent the last year hysterically telling everyone they had to stay in "the party", then perhaps.

That was directed at the few Keith apologists remaining
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bernice on October 29, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
I'm out.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
The problem is endemic to the left. You're staring down the barrel of a gun and you all want to do is split hairs until someone actually shoots you in the face.

Red Leicester (also known simply as Leicester or Leicestershire cheese)[1] is an English cheese, made in a similar manner to Cheddar cheese, although it is crumbly in texture, and typically sold at 6 to 12 months of age.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 29, 2020, 02:04:47 PM
A detail that seems to have been missed is that interference by LOTO was made in order to get McNicol's NEC to actually do anything. The stalling bunch of cunts.

He's still got that massive crowd funded legal fund hasn't he? Take the cunts to court.

That is to defend himself in another case made by John Ware. I'm ready to contribute more if he decides to challenge this different new (same old) bollocks.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
On the positive side, I'll be saving £5 per month from now on.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 02:08:11 PM
Corbyn suspended.

Thought this was a joke. I see now that it isn’t. Incredible stuff, Clive.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 29, 2020, 02:08:19 PM
So Starmer believes that Corbyn posed an "existential threat to Jewish life in the UK" and everything else the press and Tories said, and yet he stood as a Labour candidate under Corbyn's leadership? Who is the real antisemite in our society, Stu? Is it the lawyer in his suit and tie?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 29, 2020, 02:08:33 PM
I'm out.

I'm staying until the NEC results are in, then I may leave whatever. But I just want to make sure my vote isn't invalidated. If the results of the election are exceptionally positive for the left I might be tempted to stay.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 02:11:11 PM
I'm staying until the NEC results are in, then I may leave whatever. But I just want to make sure my vote isn't invalidated. If the results of the election are exceptionally positive for the left I might be tempted to stay.

Oh yes - good point.

Speaking of this, how long do we have to make our NEC choices?  And who are the recommended candidates?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:12:04 PM
Oh yes - good point.

Speaking of this, how long do we have to make our NEC choices?  And who are the recommended candidates?

Grassroots Voice https://futureweneed.com/preference/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 02:12:26 PM
He's just rewarded the wreckers to the point he'll never, ever be able to go against their will, he won't be able to put them back in their boxes. It no longer matters what his politics are or aren't, labour is now functionally a right-wing party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 02:13:08 PM
If Corbyn goes, so does the last sliver of a chance that Starmer can win the next election. He needs the left to reluctantly vote for him, not swear off Labour, like Scotland and, increasingly, the working class. The short term benefits for him and his team should be outweighed, strategically, by the damage it will do him longer term. Up until now, nothing has done that kind of long term damage.

That therefore raises the question of whether this is just posturing, and Corbyn will return to the fold, or whether they really are going to drive him out of the party, as a show of strength. Assuming Corbyn goes, I really do think that it's the final nail in the coffin for Labour, or any flavour of "left" party, seeing power for at least a decade, probably quite a bit longer. Corbyn leaving increases the chance of a new left party. No left wing party can win starting from scratch. No flavour of Labour party can scrape a minority government without that uneasy alliance.     

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
i'd be more excited for vote for Biden/Harris than Starmer/Rayner at this point

"now we can finally move on"

https://twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1321805508039352324

yeah i bet we can you poison old tax-dodging monster
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 02:18:42 PM
SO MUCH ANTISEMITISM! LOOK AT IT ALL !!! SO<MEOBODY SORT iT OUT!!! ITS EVERYWHERE. CHRIST SAKE.

*whip removed from Jeremy Corbyn*

oh wow it's all gone! blimey
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:18:58 PM
Quote
flavour of "left" party, seeing power for at least a decade, probably quite a bit longer

The only realistic option is a devastating defeat for Starmer at the next election where it is made plain that centrism has failed to win back voters OR economics events turn so bad that the level of social discord it causes forces both establishment parties to adopt quasi-socialist policies (which are always reverted to in crisis periods).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 02:21:19 PM
Violence is sadly the only way forward to a better future. Bummer.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELqn85CXkAEtD4_?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 02:22:10 PM
The only realistic option is a devastating defeat for Starmer at the next election where it is made plain that centrism has failed to win back voters OR economics events turn so bad that the level of social discord it causes forces both establishment parties to adopt quasi-socialist policies (which are always reverted to in crisis periods).

Agreed. He needs to lose big. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 02:24:46 PM
Next significant election, or so I would suggest, is the May 2021 Senedd election, it might be noted, and Drakeford's relationship (etc.) with Corbynism and Centrism is complicated.

(And with the Anglo-British Union, and COVID-19, and…)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 29, 2020, 02:25:25 PM
These days if you say Palestinians are humans you get arrested and thrown in jail suspended from the Labour party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 02:26:22 PM
That therefore raises the question of whether this is just posturing, and Corbyn will return to the fold, or whether they really are going to drive him out of the party, as a show of strength.

I’d guess they allow him back (after getting a few more smears in) to try and retain some left support. He’s better off telling them to go swivel and joining the greens or something. He’s probably bigger than his seat at this point and would win it whichever party he ran for.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
I’d guess they allow him back (after getting a few more smears in) to try and retain some left support. He’s better off telling them to go swivel and joining the greens or something. He’s probably bigger than his seat at this point and would win it whichever party he ran for.

My assumption too. It's posturing, sending a message to the media and the public that this is a new party under new leadership. But ultimately, they'll just let Corbyn back in and try to play both sides. It's the centrist way. The politics of abstention.   
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:30:06 PM
Clearly he has no intention of being Mr Unity, so another fraudulent remark from a total snake.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 02:31:37 PM

Sorry, aren't you the one that people always confuse with another poster?

You're very knowledgeable. I don't mind that because he actually is another poster and he's not a cunt.

So who did you used to be?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 29, 2020, 02:32:06 PM
I'm out.

Me too. Kind of a relief. Feel bad leaving others behind but I just can't stay.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 29, 2020, 02:33:34 PM
If you are leaving, just cancel your direct debit. Will be 6 months before you are actually lapsed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 02:35:44 PM
In the same sense that it's hard to improve and maintain good physical health in a world where we are made to be very sedentary with high fat, low nutrition, addictive foods available on every street corner; how is it possible to improve and maintain a good mental health when society is so fucking warped and there are so many cunts everywhere governing our lives and it's SO unjust and unfair.

How does one keep up a good mental state if you have an ounce of compassion or sense of fairness? It's insane.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 02:36:42 PM
Me too. Kind of a relief. Feel bad leaving others behind but I just can't stay.

Remember, you don't have to (and shouldn't) vote for Labour in local or national elections. We're only staying members in the party to have a say in internal politics that benefit the left. At least wait until we know the outcome of the elections we've just voted for. If we lose them badly, then maybe it's not worth staying, but for now, you're paying that money to help the left, not to help Labour.   
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 02:36:46 PM
If you are leaving, just cancel your direct debit. Will be 6 months before you are actually lapsed.

this. let them have the extra administrative hassle.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 29, 2020, 02:44:00 PM
Sometimes I feel like it's just too implausible and convenient when people say that centrists in the UK/US would genuinely rather condemn themselves to a permanent minority and to losing elections rather than permit any left-wing push into the party, but then something like this happens. Really no other conceivable explanation.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dothestrand on October 29, 2020, 02:46:34 PM
I’d guess they allow him back (after getting a few more smears in) to try and retain some left support. He’s better off telling them to go swivel and joining the greens or something. He’s probably bigger than his seat at this point and would win it whichever party he ran for.

The Greens wouldn't take Corbyn though, would they?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
All lost donations will be dwarfed by the private funding for capitalists that flood into the party (each with strings attached that devastate the chances of the poor).

If you can afford to stay a member at £6 a month I would recommend doing so, only for the following reasons.

- Local Labour aren't all bastards like 90% of the PLP
- Labour does lots of good work locally which is funded through your donations
- Your membership gives you the right to kick back via internal voting on the NEC, a prime example is the elections happening right now, and even be involved in doing good even if it is at a local level
- It is rare to ever have a boss/head of something you're part of who is actually a fundamentally decent person. So when it shifts from that person to a snake (who then suspends the decent person) a reaction of dismay and objection is completely justified and natural, and I fully support that. However, the norm everywhere is that people think their boss is either a cunt or shit, or a shit cunt. We have been spoiled.

I am fortunate enough to not miss £6 a month at the minute and even if it does severely pain me that Labour is being rehewn against what it ought to be, there is nothing else going on, and membership doesn't preclude anyone from working towards developing an alternative.

So I am basically staying. Far more of what I pay in tax to the government is squandered.

I think Starmer is an insipid charmless character whose qualities have been blown up out of proportion by the right, who will fail at his own project even if he is left to it unopposed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
Sometimes I feel like it's just too implausible and convenient when people say that centrists in the UK/US would genuinely rather condemn themselves to a permanent minority and to losing elections rather than permit any left-wing push into the party, but then something like this happens. Really no other conceivable explanation.

That's what they say of the left, the fact is, it's a half-truth as they're seemingly quite comfortable capitulating towards the right.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 02:48:45 PM
In the same sense that it's hard to improve and maintain good physical health in a world where we are made to be very sedentary with high fat, low nutrition, addictive foods available on every street corner; how is it possible to improve and maintain a good mental health when society is so fucking warped and there are so many cunts everywhere governing our lives and it's SO unjust and unfair.

How does one keep up a good mental state if you have an ounce of compassion or sense of fairness? It's insane.

I don't know. Been asking myself the same thing for a long time.

I have two young kids. What a cunt I am to bring them up in this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 29, 2020, 02:51:15 PM
Sometimes I feel like it's just too implausible and convenient when people say that centrists in the UK/US would genuinely rather condemn themselves to a permanent minority and to losing elections rather than permit any left-wing push into the party, but then something like this happens. Really no other conceivable explanation.

A reminder:


David Graeber on the Extreme 'Centre': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9afwZON8dU
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Blinder Data on October 29, 2020, 02:52:44 PM
He's just rewarded the wreckers to the point he'll never, ever be able to go against their will, he won't be able to put them back in their boxes. It no longer matters what his politics are or aren't, labour is now functionally a right-wing party.

How has what happened today made Labour a functionally right-wing party? What right-wing policies have been announced to decisively make that shift?

We can all see that Starmer is wrapping himself in the flag/family stuff, decisively punishing/isolating Corbyn and his supporters, appointing ShadCab members from the right of the PLP and accepting the recommendations of the EHRC report to show Labour has changed from before. But in policy terms, Labour under him has been a vacuum - there were the 10 pledges but as far as I can see nothing has been done to enforce or repudiate them. Labour has barely put forward anything substantial.

I think the presentation is different than Corbyn obvs, its priorities are different and it brings back memories of Labour under leaders more to the right of the party, but I need more evidence before I accept that Labour is now decisively right-wing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dothestrand on October 29, 2020, 02:53:40 PM
These days if you say Palestinians are humans you get arrested and thrown in jail suspended from the Labour party.

It's fair to say it's complicated. However, the Shadow Foreign Secretary is also the Chair of Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East and has recently called for a boycott of West Bank imports. So any idea that Labour has swung behind supporting Israel and has forgotten Palestine is clearly untrue.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on October 29, 2020, 02:55:36 PM
fuck this. shitty news made worse by the fact i found out from a friend in a whatsapp group crowing about it...which I wouldn't care about except this is someone who called me thick for not voting Tory in 2015/17. calling corbyn a "nasty dangerous man" and gleefully saying the party's instantly better now when you consider the party's position right now against a possible no deal brexit and a shithouse response to a pandemic during our tenth year of Tory government is fucking rich.
Just infuriating watching him pretend he never wanted to vote Tory and has Corbyn/Antisemitism as a handy excuse to ease his guilt along with plenty of others who would rather say "it was Labours fault for not providing effective opposition" because it's easier than saying "i swallowed a load of hot bullshit and now we're all fucked"

sorry I know nobody asked, just easier to vent here than having yet another row with him
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 02:58:41 PM
Quote
I need more evidence before I accept that Labour is now decisively right-wing.

The trouble with this statement is 1) What do you mean by Labour? Its members, the clp, the plp, the nec, the leadership? 2) you can just slide it further right if the evidence is inconvenient.

The cabinet are now mainly continuity capitalists, third way centrists at best. The people most pleased by the mood music and vacuum of policy from Starmer are of the right: Zionists and neoconservatives, establishment journalists, business 'leaders'.

The PLP were not a left wing grouping anyway even under Corbyn. At the Zenith, 2017-2018 Labour had a left wing membership, NEC and leadership. However the CLPs were at war, the PLP were 90% centrists or right wingers.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 02:59:09 PM
All lost donations will be dwarfed by the private funding for capitalists that flood into the party (each with strings attached that devastate the chances of the poor).

If you can afford to stay a member at £6 a month I would recommend doing so, only for the following reasons.

- Local Labour aren't all bastards like 90% of the PLP
- Labour does lots of good work locally which is funded through your donations
- Your membership gives you the right to kick back via internal voting on the NEC, a prime example is the elections happening right now, and even be involved in doing good even if it is at a local level
- It is rare to ever have a boss/head of something you're part of who is actually a fundamentally decent person. So when it shifts from that person to a snake (who then suspends the decent person) a reaction of dismay and objection is completely justified and natural, and I fully support that. However, the norm everywhere is that people think their boss is either a cunt or shit, or a shit cunt. We have been spoiled.

I am fortunate enough to not miss £6 a month at the minute and even if it does severely pain me that Labour is being rehewn against what it ought to be, there is nothing else going on, and membership doesn't preclude anyone from working towards developing an alternative.

So I am basically staying. Far more of what I pay in tax to the government is squandered.

I think Starmer is an insipid charmless character whose qualities have been blown up out of proportion by the right, who will fail at his own project even if he is left to it unopposed.

Withdraw your financial support and give it to the Trussell Trust if you want to help on a local level, imo. Money is the only language these cunts will understand and Labour was well in the red when it relied on donations.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on October 29, 2020, 03:00:00 PM
fuck this. shitty news made worse by the fact i found out from a friend in a whatsapp group crowing about it...which I wouldn't care about except this is someone who called me thick for not voting Tory in 2015/17. calling corbyn a "nasty dangerous man" and gleefully saying the party's instantly better now when you consider the party's position right now against a possible no deal brexit and a shithouse response to a pandemic during our tenth year of Tory government is fucking rich.
Just infuriating watching him pretend he never wanted to vote Tory and has Corbyn/Antisemitism as a handy excuse to ease his guilt along with plenty of others who would rather say "it was Labours fault for not providing effective opposition" because it's easier than saying "i swallowed a load of hot bullshit and now we're all fucked"

sorry I know nobody asked, just easier to vent here than having yet another row with him

Really I'd say this makes up quite a lot of net centralism, people desperately trying to cover their own guilt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on October 29, 2020, 03:01:44 PM
fair enough point
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 03:04:05 PM
How has what happened today made Labour a functionally right-wing party? What right-wing policies have been announced to decisively make that shift?

We can all see that Starmer is wrapping himself in the flag/family stuff, decisively punishing/isolating Corbyn and his supporters, appointing ShadCab members from the right of the PLP and accepting the recommendations of the EHRC report to show Labour has changed from before. But in policy terms, Labour under him has been a vacuum - there were the 10 pledges but as far as I can see nothing has been done to enforce or repudiate them. Labour has barely put forward anything substantial.

I think the presentation is different than Corbyn obvs, its priorities are different and it brings back memories of Labour under leaders more to the right of the party, but I need more evidence before I accept that Labour is now decisively right-wing.

Keith has just rewarded the right wing of the party and of the press for their wrecking. It worked so well this time, do you think they won't try again on him if he attempted to do anything they didn't approve of?

What's more likely is he knows this and won't try anything that contentious to begin with, the (left wing portion of the) space in which he operates in has now been constrained.

What polices does labour have at all at this point? None, but it's pretty obvious by everything he's done since January the pledges aren't worth shit; on the backburner for this jingoistic "British Values" stuff, which incidentally, there are few traditional "British Values" that are not fundamentally right-wing.  Whatever he offers in 2025 will be to the right of the pledges.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 03:04:32 PM
keith sent me an email about the EHRC so i just unsubscribed from all party comms. hope they see a spike
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Not worth discussing? That aged well.

Fucking cunts. I mean, they've already won - can't they just leave it now?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 03:09:57 PM
Withdraw your financial support and give it to the Trussell Trust if you want to help on a local level, imo. Money is the only language these cunts will understand and Labour was well in the red when it relied on donations.

As I say, the money I pay Labour to have a say is not an amount that troubles me financially currently. I understand the arguments and I am sympathetic to them but Labour will be on a charm offensive to big businesses. Their money will come with strings attached and Keith will open wide as it pours on in.

When Labour's grassroots support collapses the only way they have propped themselves up is by begging the media and big businesses to love them. And media and big businesses only switch sides when they realise Labour are no threat to the status quo. Which is why I find Blinder Data credulous on this issue.

But it is right to also think of the money funding good people, committed activists at a local level, and that this small sum of money gives you a say. I am content to continue funding some good people and having a say.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on October 29, 2020, 03:10:21 PM
Not worth discussing? That aged well.

Fucking cunts. I mean, they've already won - can't they just leave it now?

Got to salt the earth.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: JaDanketies on October 29, 2020, 03:12:34 PM
I'd rather give £6 a month to some musician on Bandcamp. Or get a bottle of wine. Or buy a bus ticket and ride the buses all day. Financially supporting this shower is something I could not justify. They're not on our side. Join the Green Party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 03:12:55 PM
Another Angry Voice's take

Quote
The long-awaited ECHR report on antisemistism in the Labour Party has been released, and it's extremely underwhelming (in comparison to a Tory party that erects statues to notorious antisemites during election campaigns, spreads Nazi-derived antisemitic conspiracies, lets holocaust deniers quietly sneak back into the party once the fuss has died down, and is led by a guy who wrote a novel depicting Jews as a shady cabal who control the media and world finance).

The ECHR report acknowledges that Labour's disciplinary issues got much better once the right-wing relic Ian McNicol was removed as head of the NEC and replaced by Jennie Formby.

Keir Starmer's reaction to this report has been to suspend Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour Party, which is clearly a premeditated action (just like the Anyone But Corbyn coup plotters used the Brexit referendum result as the flimsiest possible excuse to launch their spectacularly failed coup attampt in 2016).

Contrast this rapid decision with Starmer's absolute non-action against the internal wreckers identified in the Labour Leaks report, who deliberately threw the 2017 general election, and lobbed racist abuse and mental health smears all over the place.

They've all been allowed to get off scot free, while one of the leading anti-racists of his generation gets instantly suspended.

In recent weeks Starmer has already driven anyone of conscience out of his shadow cabinet by whipping Labour MPs to abstain on two vile pieces of Tory legislation (to create legal impunity for war criminals overseas, and to give spy cops in Britain impunity for crimes such as rape, torture, faking evidence, and even murder).

Now he's seeking to drive socialists away from the Labour Party altogether, by throwing Corbyn to the wolves, with impending disciplinary action obviously lined up against anyone remaining in the Labour Party who dares defend him.

This is clearly going to cause a massive wave of resignations from the Labour Party, but Starmer doesn't give a damn about that because he's already been sucking up to billionaires and corporate fat cats to make up the £millions in lost membership fees.

He's figured that the loss of feet on the ground at the next election will be offset by more favourable coverage in the right-wing propaganda rags, but that's hyper-optimistic given the absolute hounding the corporate hack pack subjected Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband to.

Having posed as the "unity candidate" to win the leadership election, he's now intent on pursuing the ultra-divisive strategy of driving the left away from Labour, and sucking up to 'soft Tories' with his pathetic policies of non-opposition and systematic abstention.

Starmer doesn't care that Ed Miliband tried exactly the same thing in 2015 with "austerity-lite" and repeated abstention on vile Tory legislation like Theresa May's unlawfully racist 'Hostile Environment', draconian state snooping powers, and Iain Duncan Smith's bizarre and brazenly unlawful retroactive forced unpaid labour rules.

He doesn't care that this pathetic Tory-lite strategy failed so spectacularly last time it was tried, to the extent that Labour ended up with only 30% of the vote in an election they would have absolutely walked if they'd bothered actually opposing Tory austerity ruination, instead of cravenly imitating it.

Starmer clearly wants to try this kind of failed Tory-lite strategy again, and deliberately driving away millions of ordinary working people, trade unionists, progressives, socialists, and traditional Labour voters is a key part of what he's attempting (after having already driven away huge numbers of Red Wall voters in 2019 with his atrocious policy of insisting on a "sore loser" EU referendum).

Anyone who thinks Labour can win without socialists and progressive policies needs to have a little look at what's happened to once-mighty socialist parties like PASOK in Greece, PvdA in the Netherlands, and PS in France.

I said from the beginning of Starmer's leadership that I'd give him a fair chance, and judge him on his actions.

It's fair to say that his actions have proven to be far worse, more inept, more divisive, and more downright dishonest than my absolute worst expectations during the leadership contest.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 03:13:50 PM
fuck this. shitty news made worse by the fact i found out from a friend in a whatsapp group crowing about it...which I wouldn't care about except this is someone who called me thick for not voting Tory in 2015/17. calling corbyn a "nasty dangerous man" and gleefully saying the party's instantly better now when you consider the party's position right now against a possible no deal brexit and a shithouse response to a pandemic during our tenth year of Tory government is fucking rich.
Just infuriating watching him pretend he never wanted to vote Tory and has Corbyn/Antisemitism as a handy excuse to ease his guilt along with plenty of others who would rather say "it was Labours fault for not providing effective opposition" because it's easier than saying "i swallowed a load of hot bullshit and now we're all fucked"

sorry I know nobody asked, just easier to vent here than having yet another row with him

[ferris bangs on about his family whatsapp thread]
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 29, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
I admit that i had 2 poor choices, that’s all. Very much doubt rlb would have been a resounding success, nor do i understand how this would have changed the report or how the reaction to it was going to go regardless.

Well, we'll never know, will we? But Starmer was always clearly shit for cunts and you wouldn't listen. I've lost any respect I had for you. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dothestrand on October 29, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
Just how much support would left wing defectors attract? Let's say all the Socialist Campaign Group MPs resigned and called by-elections. How many would win their seats? A few? Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell maybe. Would Burgon and Long Bailey defeat an official Labour candidate? I doubt it. History suggests any defection would be counterproductive but I don't know, maybe it's the only outcome. Labour may think winning enough votes in the centre would offset those lost to the left, who would attract low(ish) support in FPTP anyway.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 03:23:45 PM
fuck this. shitty news made worse by the fact i found out from a friend in a whatsapp group
What's their housing status?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 29, 2020, 03:26:36 PM
What's their housing status?

'of Lords'
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 29, 2020, 03:32:45 PM
This is a pretty decisive end to the little outlet of hope we were briefly allowed to have. Back to irrelevance and despair for another generation and then we might get another hearing. Anything more would be greedy.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: colacentral on October 29, 2020, 03:37:46 PM
Just how much support would left wing defectors attract? Let's say all the Socialist Campaign Group MPs resigned and called by-elections. How many would win their seats? A few? Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell maybe. Would Burgon and Long Bailey defeat an official Labour candidate? I doubt it. History suggests any defection would be counterproductive but I don't know, maybe it's the only outcome. Labour may think winning enough votes in the centre would offset those lost to the left, who would attract low(ish) support in FPTP anyway.

They shouldn't call by-elections for a start. They are Corbyn supporters who ran under the 2019 manifesto and won on that basis. CHUK didn't call a by election, why should they?

Of course they probably would call one anyway, because the left never learn to be as cut throat as the right, which is why we usually lose.

If they left this many years away from a general election, they have enough time to win support. The youth support might be slow to pick up on it, but it would come eventually. Most of the 18-25s who overwhelmingly supported Labour in 2017 and 2019 supported Corbyn and the manifestos, not the Labour brand. They wouldn't be winning a 2024 election by a long shot, but it would shaft Starmer. Longer term who knows? It's not like there aren't recent examples of new left wing parties winning lots of support in a relatively short span of time elsewhere in the world. Allowing Labour to turn itself as irrelevant as the LDs is what's required first, despite that facilitating another likely Tory win. Otherwise we never get off the roundabout.

For now I'm staying in Labour to have some small influence while there's no one else to support. If a new party starts then I'd jump ship in a heart beat.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 29, 2020, 03:38:15 PM
:(((((((((((((((
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 03:40:44 PM
Labour's actually refusing to say what rule Corbyn broke.
(https://i.imgur.com/SyRMZBj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/YhpOS7c.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 03:41:12 PM
The great thing about this is when we finally get our feet on their necks, we won't feel in the least bit torn.

And that's what we have to do.  Do whatever it takes for the dear old cause.  And never, ever, give up.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 29, 2020, 03:42:12 PM
If you were thinking of going Green, here's a prominent member of the party strongly implying that anyone leaving Labour over this is an anti-semite:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZoSZSvi.png)
 (https://twitter.com/sianberry/status/1321825660030095361?s=20)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 03:45:49 PM
Corbyn leaving increases the chance of a new left party. No left wing party can win starting from scratch. No flavour of Labour party can scrape a minority government without that uneasy alliance.     

Even if they had Momentum and backing from at least one very significant union?  I wonder.  They may not win initially but they will break the impasse that has meant socialism is permanently blocked and they will win in the end.

Fuck joining the Greens.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 29, 2020, 03:48:57 PM
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1321799900003225601

For his statement.

Essentially for refusing to dissemble when asked. Honesty in politics is no longer to be tolerated.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 29, 2020, 03:49:15 PM
If you were thinking of going Green, here's a prominent member of the party strongly implying that anyone leaving Labour over this is an anti-semite:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZoSZSvi.png)
 (https://twitter.com/sianberry/status/1321825660030095361?s=20)

The Greens are a party that loves to fail. They don't want to be in a position of influence. I don't know what the future is for the left in this country, but it is not the Green party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rainbow Moses on October 29, 2020, 03:50:07 PM
The great thing about this is when we finally get our feet on their necks, we won't feel in the least bit torn.

And that's what we have to do.  Do whatever it takes for the dear old cause.  And never, ever, give up.

Is it possible that this unshakable belief you have in the righteousness of pushing your own agenda in the provocative way you're doing is pretty similar to a kind of, maybe bigoted, intolerant, religious fervour? I think so.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bronzy on October 29, 2020, 03:50:35 PM
The Greens are a party that loves to fail. They don't want to be in a position of influence. I don't know what the future is for the left in this country, but it is not the Green party.

More like the Yellow Party, eh lads?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 03:54:21 PM
Even if they had Momentum and backing from at least one very significant union?  I wonder.  They may not win initially but they will break the impasse that has meant socialism is permanently blocked and they will win in the end.

Fuck joining the Greens.

Migrating to the Greens would almost certainly result in factional disputes down the line that exactly mirror what's happening with Labour now.  They chose a non-alignment pact (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leax63ullPE) over the environment.   I don't think they'd be happy housing migrating social democrat scallies.  A new party would pretty much be the best option, and I guess they'd have to bring up another PR vote referendum every time anyone talks to them about how the weather is and is their dog feeling better.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cursus on October 29, 2020, 03:55:51 PM
Keith has just rewarded the right wing of the party and of the press for their wrecking. It worked so well this time, do you think they won't try again on him if he attempted to do anything they didn't approve of?

Agreed. And I've seen plenty of claims that Kieth didn't speak out sufficiently while serving under Corbyn.

This has given the Conservatives a new line of attack too:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xYmthyk/corbyn-s-man.jpg)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 03:58:55 PM
BYE BYE LABOUR YOU FUCKING WASTEMEN.

THATCHER WAS BETTER THAN YOU LOT.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 03:59:05 PM
Agreed. And I've seen plenty of claims that Kieth didn't speak out sufficiently while serving under Corbyn.

This has given the Conservatives a new line of attack too:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xYmthyk/corbyn-s-man.jpg)

Meanwhile you can add young voters (can you imagine them singing 'Kier Starmer' or the name of any other politician in a nightclub?) and the begrudging votes of left-wingers to the list of people Labour's going to probably fail to win back, alongside pretty much all of Scotland and working class Northerns.

He's only really looking 'electable' in a photographic sense at this point.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on October 29, 2020, 04:00:39 PM
And to think, wealthy neoliberal 'commentators' had the cheek to call themselves "politically homeless".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:03:11 PM
Migrating to the Greens would almost certainly result in factional disputes down the line that exactly mirror what's happening with Labour now.  They chose a non-alignment pact (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leax63ullPE) over the environment.   I don't think they'd be happy housing migrating social democrat scallies.  A new party would pretty much be the best option, and I guess they'd have to bring up another PR vote referendum every time anyone talks to them about how the weather is and is their dog feeling better.

Agreed.

BYE BYE LABOUR YOU FUCKING WASTEMEN.

THATCHER WAS BETTER THAN YOU LOT.

Steady on old pig - with you up to and including WASTEMEN (WASTEPEOPLE).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Goldentony on October 29, 2020, 04:06:49 PM
Meanwhile you can add young voters (can you imagine them singing 'Kier Starmer' or the name of any other politician in a nightclub?) and the begrudging votes of left-wingers to the list of people Labour's going to probably fail to win back, alongside pretty much all of Scotland and working class Northerns.

He's only really looking 'electable' in a photographic sense at this point.

this is a point, the nightclub work I was doing through Corbyn's run had a lot of nights ending with freshers chanting OH JEREMY CORBYN or outside or whatever, happened all the fucking time. Think about Keith's face for a second and imagine that happening again. Mad isn't it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bence Fekete on October 29, 2020, 04:07:34 PM
How does one keep up a good mental state if you have an ounce of compassion or sense of fairness?

(https://i.imgur.com/ptrdEEK.jpg)

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: monkfromhavana on October 29, 2020, 04:08:23 PM
I'm out. Fuck them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
He wins either way. He's not in the politics game to change lives, parma-opposition will make him rich beyond his wildest dreams. The cunt.

I am calling tonight for Mr. Keir Starmer to stand down as leader of Her Majesties Opposition and hand back the reins to the Soft Socialist Left who will navigate Britain steadily through these uncertain times.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 04:11:38 PM
Agreed.

Steady on old pig - with you up to and including WASTEMEN (WASTEPEOPLE).

You gotta expand your mind! I see how the other side work now. Starmer is the ghost of all that is nothing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 04:11:55 PM
Trump's going to win isn't he?

Should I kill everyone I care about now or wait a few days?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:13:39 PM
Definitely wait a few days.

Then consider killing everyone you hate.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Trump's going to win isn't he?

Should I kill everyone I care about now or wait a few days?

Trump is better than Margaret Hodge and Keith Starmer and Tracey Ann Doberman.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 04:16:27 PM
Meanwhile you can add young voters (can you imagine them singing 'Kier Starmer' or the name of any other politician in a nightclub?) and the begrudging votes of left-wingers to the list of people Labour's going to probably fail to win back, alongside pretty much all of Scotland and working class Northerns.

He's only really looking 'electable' in a photographic sense at this point.

It’s the way you can see him thinking “ooh this will keep us in the hunt for Norwich North” or whatever when he’s banging on about his centrist bullshit.

A politician’s politician.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
Margaret Hodge is 76.  Good.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 04:35:30 PM
This is who has won. These people are fucking imbeciles and yet they have everything

https://mobile.twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1321838826797600768?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 29, 2020, 04:35:40 PM
Margaret Hodge is 76.  Good.

(https://i.imgur.com/h4HtTkE.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 04:36:37 PM
lol

https://twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1321838826797600768?s=19

Oops sorry same tweet as two up. It's not about the breakfast club or cervixes
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 29, 2020, 04:41:31 PM
It's enough to make you want Trump to win isn't it
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: buttgammon on October 29, 2020, 04:42:21 PM
This is who has won. These people are fucking imbeciles and yet they have everything

https://mobile.twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1321838826797600768?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

She omitted the bit where transwomen get banned from going into the women's toilets.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 29, 2020, 04:42:26 PM
Quote
A new party would pretty much be the best option

It would do better than Change UK, but I reckon Keir Starmer assumes, correctly, the left don't have the balls and also aren't that stupid. It is likely old stagers on the left, Abbott, McDonnell etc would guard against it too.

We are between a rock and a hard place and he knows it.

Despite certain electoral doom it would be great if the new party was branded 'True Labour' or similar (Real Labour? Too many ira comparisons maybe) and had about maybe 5 headline policies, one of which was advertising open selection of MPs, and was focused around a youth movement.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:46:31 PM
I honestly think a new party's the only way to go now - unless we want to wait a decade or more and then purge the Party remorselessly - frankly, I'm not sure I want a leader who's happy to do that.  Building a clean one from the ground up would probably take a decade or more too but we'd end up with something righteous. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 04:46:52 PM
It would do better than Change UK, but I reckon Keir Starmer assumes, correctly, the left don't have the balls and also aren't that stupid. It is likely old stagers on the left, Abbott, McDonnell etc would guard against it too.

We are between a rock and a hard place and he knows it.

Despite certain electoral doom it would be great if the new party was branded 'True Labour' or similar (Real Labour? Too many ira comparisons maybe) and had about maybe 5 headline policies, one of which was advertising open selection of MPs, and was focused around a youth movement.

Maybe spell the new name the American way to trick dimmies and the underslept into putting an X in the wrong box?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 04:48:43 PM
Even if they had Momentum and backing from at least one very significant union?  I wonder.  They may not win initially but they will break the impasse that has meant socialism is permanently blocked and they will win in the end.


edit: bear with me, posted before i even finished writing first line.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:49:39 PM
The Labour tongue?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:50:11 PM
Too late K, I saw wot u rote.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 04:51:36 PM
It'll be so much more spiritually rewarding spending 10 years building with friends than fighting with enemies who happen to be under the same banner.  Younglings are gonna vote Labour off as the Imposter every time now that they've vent-killed Corbs.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:52:16 PM
Absolutely right.  Anyway, have to go to work now so, yep.  I will sing Oh Jeremy Corbyn! all the way there and all the way back.  It's my last shift before lockdown.

Look forward to considering your views on Labour tongue, Kelvin, on my return.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 29, 2020, 04:52:41 PM
Younglings are gonna vote Labour off as the Imposter every time now that they've vent-killed Corbs.

What?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 29, 2020, 04:54:06 PM
You heard him mate.  Impostor.

Not to mention, cunts.  OK, going now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: JaDanketies on October 29, 2020, 04:55:54 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ptrdEEK.jpg)

I had that same vape! It's a Vapor Genie and I got it for smoking DMT but used it for weed too. It smashed, as all glass is wont to do, and I instead got the Vapor Genie Aluminium Bat, which is much cheaper and more durable. I've lost it a bunch of times and it's not heartbreaking, unlike the glass one in the picture that was like £100.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 04:59:28 PM
What?

You're either Among Us or against us.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 29, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Ffs
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
Finished, Buellers! :)

I'm all for a new party if it's going to be seriously pursued by a co-ordinated and unified left, with the view to long (very long) term success, not victory in the short or medium term. Because even with Momentum, unions, people power, the fact is that no party starting from scratch and competing for seats against established parties like The Lib Dems, Labour and The Greens could possibly win a general election (or even more than a few seats) for decades and decades - the vote would simply be too split. It also guarantees that The Tories will stay in power for all that time, which may be the price of meaningful change, but is undoubtedly the consequence of splitting the non-Tory vote even further.

Frankly, and as I've said before, the best chance the left have is another fluke opportunity like Corbyn within Labour, which may not happen for many years, but will probably happen before a new party could even win a seat starting from scratch. And imo, even that's probably the wrong way to approach change in 2020. I truly believe the left would be best served by largely eschewing Westminster politics and instead co-ordinating their efforts, movements, protests, into applying pressure to agreed, carefully chosen targets on a scale that cannot be ignored. Push for change through a massive, co-ordinated movement as an alternative to, or at least in conjunction with, our frustrated political ambitions.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 29, 2020, 05:12:26 PM
This is who has won. These people are fucking imbeciles and yet they have everything

https://mobile.twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1321838826797600768?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Deleted now. What was it plz?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 05:13:41 PM
Left Labour's REAL best chance is me and AOC getting hitched, giving her British citizenship, and her taking over the party.  Anyone know what kind of movies she likes?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 05:17:12 PM
Deleted now. What was it plz?

Basically:  Isn't it spiffing news about Corbyn? Maybe Trump will lose too and Brexit will be reversed, and we can all go back to living in our cosy little dreamland.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 05:23:29 PM
EDIT: IGNORE
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 05:26:37 PM
The thing is, I just do not ever see Corbyn starting a new party, no matter how badly this one treats him.  Even if they exiled him to Elba, he'd still cling to them because of their storied (and ever-distant) past.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 05:27:53 PM
Basically:  Isn't it spiffing news about Corbyn? Maybe Trump will lose too and Brexit will be reversed, and we can all go back to living in our cosy little dreamland.

"can I go back to the grift where I appear to be making demands demands for left of what's on offer"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 29, 2020, 05:33:34 PM
Notwithstanding all of the chicanery, malice and weaponising of anti-semitism for factional gain undertaken by the right wing of the Labour Party, it is a fucking disgrace that through improper interference in the complaints process, Labour has discriminated against Jews. It's unforgivable. No political party is exempt from the Equalities Act. We can debate who is ultimately to blame, but all the people running the party had to do was make sure the complaints process was legally compliant for fuck's sake. It's not that hard. But they failed to do that. If there are people who think there's nothing to learn from that, welcome to your lifetime of losing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 29, 2020, 05:41:58 PM
i gotchu

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElgogYRXYAI9PL8?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 05:46:01 PM
^ Much appreciated.

(Entirely seriously, if that seems ironic. If it's going to be talked about, let's at least see it.)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 05:48:37 PM
I can't work out how to post tweets as images sorry.

Interesting that it's been deleted. I'm not signed up to twitter but all I could see was "ooh wouldn't that be marvellous" comments, but no doubt there was appalling abuse from Momentum thugs.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: colacentral on October 29, 2020, 05:49:47 PM
It's hugely pessimistic to believe a new party couldn't win seats within 10 years, with the amount of youth support Corbyn has, that Bernie Sanders has, that left wing politics in general has. Look at the rest of the world for how quick things can move, like in Greece.

Labour is a spent force, forever tainted by Blair. I find half the  battle when campaigning, is if you're talking to the politically ignorant, which is most people, and you mention what the tories have done, they'll often come back with "yeah but when labour were in charge, X and Y happened." They're talking about Blair, in the context of a conversation about Corbyn's Labour. They can't connect the dots that it's the Blairites who hate Corbyn, or why that is. At the very least, a new party eliminates that problem.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 05:50:27 PM
I can't work out how to post tweets as images sorry.
1. Screenshot.

2. https://imgur.com/ in the absence of anything better.

3.
Code: [Select]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/PZcuCzY.png[/img]
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 29, 2020, 05:54:29 PM
I reached voting age during the Iraq war. For me the idea that Labour and the Tories are two different shades of shit is the default. We were so disillusioned and hopeless that Nick Clegg looked good. 2015-19 was a weird little blip and now I don't know what to think any more. What Corbyn did was make it easy for people like me to feel that they had a clear choice that could really make a difference. That's gone away again
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 29, 2020, 05:57:20 PM
Left Labour's REAL best chance is me and AOC getting hitched, giving her British citizenship, and her taking over the party.  Anyone know what kind of movies she likes?

Quote from: AOC OkCupid Profile
My favorite movies: Romper Stomper (1992), American History X (1998), Along Came Polly (2004)

Oh dear...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 29, 2020, 06:04:05 PM
Well, um, er...

https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1321873862238285824

Quote
Lisa Nandy on Radio 4: “Antisemitism is a particular kind of racism, that punches up instead of punching down.”
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 06:04:47 PM
The Rational National has a good response:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEX3GcgRovo
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 29, 2020, 06:04:57 PM
Well, um, er...

https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1321873862238285824

you fucking what
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 06:05:22 PM
The idea that AOC even knows what Romper Stomper is made me chuckle.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 06:07:44 PM
you fucking what

I suppose, stereotypically, Jewish people tend to be in higher positions in society, rather than say black people.

One could make a case that it would've been harder to weaponise racism against black people, say, that weaponise antisemitism.

I don't know though.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 29, 2020, 06:08:35 PM
you fucking what
Yeah I though that was what she said but couldn’t be sure. Fucking mentalists. These people are complete fucking jellyheads.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 29, 2020, 06:13:35 PM
I reckon, the thing with Lisa Nandy is, she doesn't just look and sound thick... She is thick.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 29, 2020, 06:15:08 PM
you fucking what

Reminds me of 'funny tinge' on day one of CUK.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 29, 2020, 06:15:47 PM
Finished, Buellers! :)

I'm all for a new party if it's going to be seriously pursued by a co-ordinated and unified left, with the view to long (very long) term success, not victory in the short or medium term. Because even with Momentum, unions, people power, the fact is that no party starting from scratch and competing for seats against established parties like The Lib Dems, Labour and The Greens could possibly win a general election (or even more than a few seats) for decades and decades - the vote would simply be too split. It also guarantees that The Tories will stay in power for all that time, which may be the price of meaningful change, but is undoubtedly the consequence of splitting the non-Tory vote even further.

Frankly, and as I've said before, the best chance the left have is another fluke opportunity like Corbyn within Labour, which may not happen for many years, but will probably happen before a new party could even win a seat starting from scratch. And imo, even that's probably the wrong way to approach change in 2020. I truly believe the left would be best served by largely eschewing Westminster politics and instead co-ordinating their efforts, movements, protests, into applying pressure to agreed, carefully chosen targets on a scale that cannot be ignored. Push for change through a massive, co-ordinated movement as an alternative to, or at least in conjunction with, our frustrated political ambitions.
Your first paragraph talks about the difficulty of fighting the established electoral parties; your second says we should ignore Westminster-style politics. I think you answered your own question.

Also, what have we gained by not splitting the anti-Tory vote, up to this point?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on October 29, 2020, 06:19:24 PM
Well, um, er...

https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1321873862238285824

If Nandy really said that, she should be expelled from the party for that.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 06:23:20 PM
It's an extremely stupid thing to say, but I think it's fairly clear that it's meant as a claim about the common content of racism with respect to "Jewish people" contrasted with racism with respect to "black people", rather than a claim about the actual status of these supposed racial groups.

As ever, it's possible that I'm being overgenerous, I know.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 06:24:37 PM
Bear in mind when setting up a socialist party that we will be living under fascism that will very likely outlaw it before its formed, with the approval of Labour.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 06:26:05 PM
If Nandy really said that, she should be expelled from the party for that.

No calls from the right of "well, even if she didn't mean that she should know better!" I see.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: king_tubby on October 29, 2020, 06:27:00 PM
If Nandy really said that, she should be expelled from the party for that.

Second time she's done it, apparently.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 06:30:21 PM
15:30 here https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000nvtk
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 06:31:17 PM
If Nandy really said that, she should be expelled from the party for that.

Why?

This is part of the problem a arms race regarding what can and can't be said.  I heard her say it and she was saying it in the context of the perception of rich jewish people.


None of this is antisemitic, what Corbyn said isn't antisemitic, this twisting and political use of racism is what has cause this fucking shitshow in the first place.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on October 29, 2020, 06:34:41 PM
Have you had a necessary moment of clarity regarding the current state of the Labour Party yet trenter? Otherwise I fear nothing will get you there
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 06:40:38 PM
Have you had a necessary moment of clarity regarding the current state of the Labour Party yet trenter? Otherwise I fear nothing will get you there

Yes I absolutely do what do you want to test in that?  Tell me what you want to know about regarding my thoughts and i'll be happy to tell you.

Or just presume and sneer if you like.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on October 29, 2020, 06:48:26 PM
Why?

This is part of the problem a arms race regarding what can and can't be said.  I heard her say it and she was saying it in the context of the perception of rich jewish people.


None of this is antisemitic, what Corbyn said isn't antisemitic, this twisting and political use of racism is what has cause this fucking shitshow in the first place.

Because most antisemintism in the UK doesn't take place against people more powerful than the antisemites. The Jewish school that has to have high fences and barbed wire or the Jewish couple attacked in the street aren't victims of "punching up". I also don't believe that people are attacking Jewish people because they think they are rich. Then again I haven't listened to the program and should probably do that first. Even with context, describing it as "punching up" seems very dangerous at best.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 06:48:33 PM
is calling President Obama a monkey a special kind of racism too?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 06:53:50 PM
I'll tell you for free I think Starmer has fucked it, I have no idea how he comes back from this.  His decision to suspend Corbyn was a position he was manoeuvred into sometime back when he failed to get a grip on what counts as antisemitism and what is the threshold of accusations.

I don't see any benefit in progressing this mistake by playing the same game.  If the left want to form a new party they will be subject to the same game and there is likely support to be won in not behaving in such a manner (or tit for tat).  Anyone that wants to take racism seriously will have to take false claims of racism seriously (there are lots of reasons for this that go beyond Labours AS experience).  Parties survive on trust and process, it has to have these so that members can communicate, evolve and unify.  Having a situation where anything can be extrapolated into a transgression (if there is will) is just fucking stupid.

Of course if feels like "well they are doing it" well the means do not dictate the ends, what "they" are doing is exactly why "we" should not be doing it.  Starmer will find out soon enough that by playing into this he has put his neck in the noose himself.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 06:55:47 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_British_Coup_(miniseries) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_British_Coup_(miniseries))
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 06:58:29 PM
Because most antisemintism in the UK doesn't take place against people more powerful than the antisemites. The Jewish school that has to have high fences and barbed wire or the Jewish couple attacked in the street aren't victims of "punching up". I also don't believe that people are attacking Jewish people because they think they are rich. Then again I haven't listened to the program and should probably do that first. Even with context, describing it as "punching up" seems very dangerous at best.

No it doesn't.  It means, and in the context she said it, that part of AS is assuming Jewish people are rich.   Extrapolating that she means poor jewish people don't get abuse is wrong, and sophistry.

This is not complicated.  We don't want to make claims of AS anymore detached from reality.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 29, 2020, 07:02:48 PM
Notwithstanding all of the chicanery, malice and weaponising of anti-semitism for factional gain undertaken by the right wing of the Labour Party, it is a fucking disgrace that through improper interference in the complaints process, Labour has discriminated against Jews. It's unforgivable. No political party is exempt from the Equalities Act. We can debate who is ultimately to blame, but all the people running the party had to do was make sure the complaints process was legally compliant for fuck's sake. It's not that hard. But they failed to do that. If there are people who think there's nothing to learn from that, welcome to your lifetime of losing.

You're aware, I presume, that Corbyn and Formby's NEC were successfully reforming the process from 2018 onwards? He just had to go through the democratic process of getting the previous NEC voted out first, because they were obstructing it, for their own political reasons. Yes?

So the lesson seems to be, don't allow your NEC to become full of absolute stinkers.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:04:56 PM
No it doesn't.  It means, and in the context she said it, that part of AS is assuming Jewish people are rich.   Extrapolating that she means poor jewish people don't get abuse is wrong, and sophistry.

This is not complicated.  We don't want to make claims of AS anymore detached from reality.

The rich elite protected Jews are the ones who have had the loudest voice in this. I have not heard any of the working class Jews given a voice.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 07:07:24 PM
The rich elite protected Jews are the ones who have had the loudest voice in this. I have not heard any of the working class Jews given a voice.

regardless of whether that is true or not makes no difference.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:09:18 PM
regardless of whether that is true or not makes no difference.

Does to me
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 07:11:27 PM
Does to me

that is your issue then.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 07:13:51 PM
Because most antisemintism in the UK doesn't take place against people more powerful than the antisemites. The Jewish school that has to have high fences and barbed wire or the Jewish couple attacked in the street aren't victims of "punching up". I also don't believe that people are attacking Jewish people because they think they are rich. Then again I haven't listened to the program and should probably do that first. Even with context, describing it as "punching up" seems very dangerous at best.

Most anti-semitism stems from the perception that jews control hollywood/the media/the economy/the world, does it not?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 29, 2020, 07:17:17 PM
You're aware, I presume, that Corbyn and Formby's NEC were successfully reforming the process from 2018 onwards? He just had to go through the democratic process of getting the previous NEC voted out first, because they were obstructing it, for their own political reasons. Yes?

So the lesson seems to be, don't allow your NEC to become full of absolute stinkers.

I know things had started to be done, but I can't see how that's good enough. It's a bit like Matt Hancock, always telling us what he's going to do, because he can't tell us about anything useful he's actually done. And if it really was just Corbyn and Formby vs the NEC, then why was the message from Corbyn that it was all getting sorted and he had a grip on it, rather than "I'm trying to get it sorted but there are these individuals in the way"? Also, the EHRC highlighted that one of the reasons they've broken the law (the law against racist discrimination) is that they disproportionately decided not to investigate concerns raised about anti-Semitism as opposed to other forms of the discrimination. I can't see how the NEC was stopping them from doing a proper job there. They just needed to have a proper process. If it takes years for a party to ensure they don't have a racist complaints process, then I don't think they deserve to win.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 29, 2020, 07:18:18 PM
Take a look at The Greens in Aus and NZ, sure, not FPTP but by being consistent and booting out most of the nutters, have a significant vote share.
Your Greens could be stacked to easily outvote the anti Halal and TERF nutters, but it would need a leader to organise it. Same for a new party. Who is that person though
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Bence Fekete on October 29, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
I had that same vape! It's a Vapor Genie and I got it for smoking DMT but used it for weed too. It smashed, as all glass is wont to do, and I instead got the Vapor Genie Aluminium Bat, which is much cheaper and more durable. I've lost it a bunch of times and it's not heartbreaking, unlike the glass one in the picture that was like £100.

This made me happy, then sad and then I had to google an aluminium bat. Have you tried it for hyperspace?

I have a glass genie, also imported for some £100 + tax. It's good but, that said, I used to have one of the cheaper wooden genies and looking back I actually prefer it over the glass, especially for DMT (first breakthrough with wooden, so sentimental too) - deeply regret hacking it to bits one desperate weedless weekend. 

And that is why I think Keir Starmer is a cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 07:23:56 PM
Take a look at The Greens in Aus and NZ, sure, not FPTP but by being consistent and booting out most of the nutters, have a significant vote share.
Your Greens could be stacked to easily outvote the anti Halal and TERF nutters, but it would need a leader to organise it. Same for a new party. Who is that person though

Exactly for any new party we need a new leader, Corbyn merely has to (and should only) endorse.  I do not see this happening however because what would be required was really well thought out structured and disciplined party.  Whilst it is abundantly clear most of the left just wants to engage pissing contest rows and hark at bad nobhead celebrity takes on twitter.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 29, 2020, 07:26:25 PM
Novara's coverage just started: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FFhEndNNtvc
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 07:28:02 PM
Exactly for any new party we need a new leader, Corbyn merely has to (and should only) endorse. 

The problem is, the people who represent the good guys are your Corbyns. They aren't psychopathic charmers who can convince people very well.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 07:28:23 PM
Most anti-semitism stems from the perception that jews control hollywood/the media/the economy/the world, does it not?

most "antisemitism" claims come from people who are powerful and rich and use their Jewish status in order not to be held to account for their cuntery

and David Baddiel.

not that antisemitism isnt a problem today. but it was not endemic in the Labour Party under Corbyn. it's just bullshit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 07:31:51 PM
If Nandy really said that, she should be expelled from the party for that.

Be fair, it’s not like she did something unforgivable like tweeting a link to an interview in the Independent.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 07:41:08 PM
Looks like they are being challenged on breaking the rules in suspending Corbyn.

So will Keith be suspending Rayner as the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism have demanded? If not, why not?

most "antisemitism" claims come from people who are powerful and rich and use their Jewish status in order not to be held to account for their cuntery

and David Baddiel.

not that antisemitism isnt a problem today. but it was not endemic in the Labour Party under Corbyn. it's just bullshit.

Nah, I think most antisemitism claims come from people who are genuine victims of antisemitism, like the people who had their family members gravestones smashed in my local synagogue.

Your last sentence is correct though.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 29, 2020, 07:44:08 PM
I know things had started to be done, but I can't see how that's good enough. It's a bit like Matt Hancock, always telling us what he's going to do, because he can't tell us about anything useful he's actually done. And if it really was just Corbyn and Formby vs the NEC, then why was the message from Corbyn that it was all getting sorted and he had a grip on it, rather than "I'm trying to get it sorted but there are these individuals in the way"?

Firstly, political parties try not to air their dirty laundry in public. I honestly don't understand why you'd even suggest that as a sensible course of action. This is not to say that I agree with his every decision, you understand?

Quote
Also, the EHRC highlighted that one of the reasons they've broken the law (the law against racist discrimination) is that they disproportionately decided not to investigate concerns raised about anti-Semitism as opposed to other forms of the discrimination. I can't see how the NEC was stopping them from doing a proper job there. They just needed to have a proper process. If it takes years for a party to ensure they don't have a racist complaints process, then I don't think they deserve to win.

The report seems to be rather concerned with not mentioning how shit the process was before Corbyn, and seems to be much more interested in using the comparison between AS and sexism as its yardstick, which seems a bit rum to me, because that wasn't as far as I'm aware on anybody's radar. Prior to 2018, anything he tried to do back then, to gee the NEC into getting its arse in gear, is being described now as 'abnormal interference'. Can't win, can he?

And I can't really stress this enough - he was succeeding in his reform of the process.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:45:21 PM
that is your issue then.

It's an issue for all of us, friend.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:46:19 PM
Most anti-semitism stems from the perception that jews control hollywood/the media/the economy/the world, does it not?

Remove the word control and replace with "are part of", and Most with "Some"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 07:49:16 PM
It's hugely pessimistic to believe a new party couldn't win seats within 10 years, with the amount of youth support Corbyn has, that Bernie Sanders has, that left wing politics in general has. Look at the rest of the world for how quick things can move, like in Greece.

I think winning a seat or two in that time frame is unlikely but feasible. Winning enough seats to have a significant voice in a coalition, let alone win an outright election is, even in the best case scenario, decades and decades away. I'd love to see that party exist, see the left fighting for a unifying cause they believe in, rather than a party they hate almost as much as it hates them. But I do not accept that it has a better chance of meaningful success than another left leaning leader within Labour.

Your first paragraph talks about the difficulty of fighting the established electoral parties; your second says we should ignore Westminster-style politics. I think you answered your own question.

I didn't ask a question, what point are you making? Fighting established parties will be a long, arduous, near impossible task. Fighting for the soul of Labour will be a long, arduous, near impossible task. Fighting our battles away from Westminster politics will see more immediate results, and is on our own terms, but is limited by a lack of co-ordination and scalability. All three are options I would back, but in the order  National Movement > Labour Party > New Party    purely down to chance of success and how long it would take to achieve. However, since no national movement nor new party exist, I believe the only pragmatic choice is to pursue change within Labour for the time being.

Quote
Also, what have we gained by not splitting the anti-Tory vote, up to this point?

Well, in Corbyn's first election we nearly won government, but generally speaking, fuck all. That doesn't mean that splitting the vote to start a new party (which I'm assuming is your argument?) would stand a better chance of succeeding than my suggested alternatives. It wouldn't; it would stand a slimmer chance. And maybe that's worth the risk, but be under no illusions about the chance of success. It would just be nice to fight for our own beliefs, rather than for compromised ones. That's the case for a new party, not a better chance of winning.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 07:50:14 PM
Remove the word control and replace with "are part of", and Most with "Some"

I suppose the amount of people I've seen/heard/read saying these things is disproportional.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:50:20 PM


Nah, I think most antisemitism claims come from people who are genuine victims of antisemitism, like the people who had their family members gravestones smashed in my local synagogue.


You are right, back in the 80s, the National Front were are real and terrible scourge of the Jewish communities. Remnants of these far-right groups still practice such racism, less openly and in less numbers but those complaints reflect that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 07:57:49 PM
maybe i'm just optimistic that david baddiels outnumber neo-nazi cunts . sadly probably am
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 07:59:41 PM
jobotic failing to identify who the true anti-semites are
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 08:03:05 PM
You are right, back in the 80s, the National Front were are real and terrible scourge of the Jewish communities. Remnants of these far-right groups still practice such racism, less openly and in less numbers but those complaints reflect that.

My mum's best mate stood as a Labour councillor in the eighties and the amount of crap she had posted through her door about being a Jew-loving traitor was frightening.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 29, 2020, 08:13:11 PM
Firstly, political parties try not to air their dirty laundry in public. I honestly don't understand why you'd even suggest that as a sensible course of action. This is not to say that I agree with his every decision, you understand?

The report seems to be rather concerned with not mentioning how shit the process was before Corbyn, and seems to be much more interested in using the comparison between AS and sexism as its yardstick, which seems a bit rum to me, because that wasn't as far as I'm aware on anybody's radar. Prior to 2018, anything he tried to do back then, to gee the NEC into getting its arse in gear, is being described now as 'abnormal interference'. Can't win, can he?

And I can't really stress this enough - he was succeeding in his reform of the process.

I have a fair bit of sympathy for him - he became leader more or less by accident, and if you were planning a left takeover of the Labour Party he really wouldn't be your first choice because he's nowhere near ruthless enough. But if after four years the broken complaints process is still not fixed then that's a failure.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 08:20:22 PM
I have a fair bit of sympathy for him - he became leader more or less by accident, and if you were planning a left takeover of the Labour Party he really wouldn't be your first choice because he's nowhere near ruthless enough. But if after four years the broken complaints process is still not fixed then that's a failure.

Not the most pressing issue to be fair.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 08:23:55 PM
Grassroots Voice https://futureweneed.com/preference/

Thank you for this.  I have now voted for the NEC candidates.


Any suggestions for the Treasurer?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 08:25:48 PM
Berger on O'Brien...the worst thing I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pancreas on October 29, 2020, 08:27:50 PM
Berger on O'Brien...the worst thing I've ever seen.

King Masochist.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 08:28:56 PM
King Masochist.

It was on Novara.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 08:29:51 PM
Should just blurt "boo hoo" in her face until she drowns in a pool of her crocodile tears.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Urinal Cake on October 29, 2020, 08:32:55 PM
I don't see the point of this unless it's petty revenge. Corbyn was pretty much cast aside from history. Newer Labour was rolling along with it pro-business, pro-Israel etc agenda.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Goldentony on October 29, 2020, 08:40:39 PM
I don't see the point of this unless it's petty revenge.

they're fucking thick, and cunts and all like fleetwood mac mega mixes
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on October 29, 2020, 08:47:16 PM
They shouldn't call by-elections for a start. They are Corbyn supporters who ran under the 2019 manifesto and won on that basis. CHUK didn't call a by election, why should they?

Of course they probably would call one anyway, because the left never learn to be as cut throat as the right, which is why we usually lose.

If they left this many years away from a general election, they have enough time to win support. The youth support might be slow to pick up on it, but it would come eventually. Most of the 18-25s who overwhelmingly supported Labour in 2017 and 2019 supported Corbyn and the manifestos, not the Labour brand. They wouldn't be winning a 2024 election by a long shot, but it would shaft Starmer. Longer term who knows? It's not like there aren't recent examples of new left wing parties winning lots of support in a relatively short span of time elsewhere in the world. Allowing Labour to turn itself as irrelevant as the LDs is what's required first, despite that facilitating another likely Tory win. Otherwise we never get off the roundabout.

For now I'm staying in Labour to have some small influence while there's no one else to support. If a new party starts then I'd jump ship in a heart beat.

Pretty much, they could stand on the same manifesto and I don't think there would be any dishonesty involved unlike CHUK, they would still be functioning in opposition to the Tories and likely much more dependably so than most Labour MP's.

The end game isn't automatically any new party coming to power I'd say(although I do think a few MP's could be possible unlike CHUK/UKIP/Brexit) its putting pressure on Labour, doing this via the threat of splitting the vote is arguably now much greater than any influence that can be had from within. Farage arguably had a much greater effect on dragging the Tories to the right and to Brexit than the eurospecitc wing of the party itself was ever able to via that same threat.

It need not even actually be a case of losing an election, the threat itself will doubtless put the wind up a lot of MP's who will be fearing for their seats and might be enough to get them to turn on Starmer and the right of the party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 29, 2020, 08:50:43 PM
Not the most pressing issue to be fair.

In the scheme of things maybe not, but surely a system that can't effectively get racists out of the party is a suicide bomb waiting to go off. You'd think they would have seen that coming, dealt with it swiftly then got on with other things like averting climate disaster.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 08:53:49 PM
[ferris bangs on about his family whatsapp thread]

Ahh some Hadley freeman tier analysis just arrived directly to my phone.

Deep breath, mute group for 2 days, go back to pretending to work.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 08:53:53 PM
In the scheme of things maybe not, but surely a system that can't effectively get racists out of the party is a suicide bomb waiting to go off. You'd think they would have seen that coming, dealt with it swiftly then got on with other things like averting climate disaster.

I suspect because it wasn't an issue, and retrospectively was an issue.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 29, 2020, 08:56:54 PM
Well, in Corbyn's first election we nearly won government, but generally speaking, fuck all. That doesn't mean that splitting the vote to start a new party (which I'm assuming is your argument?) would stand a better chance of succeeding than my suggested alternatives. It wouldn't; it would stand a slimmer chance. And maybe that's worth the risk, but be under no illusions about the chance of success. It would just be nice to fight for our own beliefs, rather than for compromised ones. That's the case for a new party, not a better chance of winning.
Syriza was founded as a political party three years before it took power for the first time. Literal translation of Syriza's name - "Coalition of the Radical Left - Progressive Alliance".

As you've admitted yourself, not splitting the vote has achieved absolutely nothing. Just another generation of people burned out and viewing all politics as a mug's game where the decent get trampled and nothing ever changes. I don't want that. I want to fight alongside people who I largely agree with, rather than argue with people I hate and who hate me, to win the tiniest fraction of a concession which will just be cast aside whenever it's convenient to do so.

What does continuing to be in the Labour Party in 2020 achieve?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 08:57:39 PM
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1321895242803662848

At the very least, that YouGov refers to a group of UK citizens as "ALL BRITONS" is fucking odd
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 29, 2020, 09:04:55 PM
I am All Britons - you are not All Britons. How do you get back into All Britons?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 29, 2020, 09:09:48 PM
I think I'm right in saying that the EHRC report itself defends what Corbyn has done today - i.e. discussing/questioning/opining on the scale of antisemitism in the party.

To justify the suspension, they might have to vaguely say he was 'bringing the party into disrepute'.[1]

I'll be listening to Tysky in full tomorrow, but Bastani (https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1321912614524461056) reckons Starmer will be expelling Corbyn, as to reinstate him would look weak now that he's taken the step of suspending him.
 1. I wonder if sabotaging election chances counts as disreputable. Not sure where those various Labour saboteurs are at the moment, I'd be interested in seeing a recap.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 09:10:14 PM
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1321895242803662848

At the very least, that YouGov refers to a group of UK citizens as "ALL BRITONS" is fucking odd

It's not a poll, it's propaganda by the secret service.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 09:18:23 PM
Should Jeremy Crobbins be put in the stocks so the decent people of Britain can throw rotting vegetables at him?

YES 77%
NO 23%
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 29, 2020, 09:19:53 PM
I know we've got bigger issues at hand, but I wonder how Corbyn is feeling right now. Both books I've read about the 2019 election say how absolutely devastated he was at the anti-semitism jibes.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
I hope he has a nice cup of tea and a well-deserved sit down after this. and that glassy-eyed Rachel Riley isn't outside his house yelling "LEAVE US ALONE!!!"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 29, 2020, 09:26:53 PM
Syriza was founded as a political party three years before it took power for the first time. Literal translation of Syriza's name - "Coalition of the Radical Left - Progressive Alliance".

As you've admitted yourself, not splitting the vote has achieved absolutely nothing. Just another generation of people burned out and viewing all politics as a mug's game where the decent get trampled and nothing ever changes. I don't want that. I want to fight alongside people who I largely agree with, rather than argue with people I hate and who hate me, to win the tiniest fraction of a concession which will just be cast aside whenever it's convenient to do so.

I literally argued that this would be the reason to join a new party in my last post. I have also repeatedly stated that, if such a party existed and there was a co-ordinated effort by the left to make it work, I would back it. There isn't one right now, so it's a moot point until one forms.

Quote
What does continuing to be in the Labour Party in 2020 achieve?

I've answered this many times, as have other here who've remained in the party for strategic reasons. In short, because it gives us a say in things like the NEC elections, and therefore in retaining some form of left wing influence within the party should an opportunity arise further down the line. Since no new alternative party exists, that is provably "achieving" more than every left winger leaving at this point in time for no gain. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on October 29, 2020, 09:34:16 PM
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1321895242803662848

At the very least, that YouGov refers to a group of UK citizens as "ALL BRITONS" is fucking odd
I'll have you know, the interview was conducted in P-Celtic, and those nasty Gaelic speakers didn't have a clue what it was all about.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 29, 2020, 09:35:34 PM
https://www.channel4.com/news/former-labour-party-mp-luciana-berger-alleges-jeremy-corbyn-made-a-number-of-different-antisemitic-comments (https://www.channel4.com/news/former-labour-party-mp-luciana-berger-alleges-jeremy-corbyn-made-a-number-of-different-antisemitic-comments)

What's her deal? When she's pressed she makes a very vague quick notion of corbyn having made 'antisemitic statements' then goes off to something else
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: notjosh on October 29, 2020, 09:39:43 PM
I think I'm right in saying that the EHRC report itself defends what Corbyn has done today - i.e. discussing/questioning/opining on the scale of antisemitism in the party.

It confirms that it's protected under the European Convention of Human Rights:

Quote
Article 10 will protect Labour Party members who, for example, make legitimate criticisms of the Israeli government, or express their opinions on internal Party matters, such as the scale of antisemitism within the Party, based on their own experience and within the law. It does not protect criticism of Israel that is antisemitic.

It also says:

Quote
Suggesting that complaints of antisemitism are fake or smears. Labour Party agents denied antisemitism in the Party and made comments dismissing complaints as ‘smears’ and ‘fake’. This conduct may target Jewish members as deliberately making up antisemitism complaints to undermine the Labour Party, and ignores legitimate and genuine complaints of antisemitism in the Party. These comments went beyond simply describing the agents’ own personal experience of antisemitism in the Party.

Which leaves it quite open to interpretation whether or not questioning the 'Labour is antisemitic' trope is itself evidence of anti-semitism (a delightful little Catch-22). From the examples I've seen in the report I would suggest that when there's ambiguity the authors err on the side of it being antisemitism. Having said that I'm generally very imperceptive when it comes to spotting antisemitic tropes, so judge for yourself. Here's one of the examples:

Quote
Local Rossendale Borough councillor, Pam Bromley, posted on Facebook: ‘Had Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party pulled up the drawbridge and nipped the bogus AS [antisemitism] accusations in the bud in the first place we would not be where we are now and the fifth column in the LP [Labour Party] would not have managed to get such a foothold ... the Lobby has miscalculated ... The witch hunt has created brand new fightback networks ... The Lobby will then melt back into its own cesspit.’

The report judged that this comment constituted 'unlawful harrassment'. Interested to know what others think.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 09:58:41 PM
Quote from: Ash Sarkar
The EHRC report, from what I've read, is  measured and thorough (even if there were a couple of instances where I differed with the assessment of inappropriate intervention).

Jeremy Corbyn's suspension is oil on the fire. It is grotesquely unfair, and a mockery of antiracism.

I think I fancy Ash Sarkar more than anyone else on the planet.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:00:54 PM
https://www.channel4.com/news/former-labour-party-mp-luciana-berger-alleges-jeremy-corbyn-made-a-number-of-different-antisemitic-comments (https://www.channel4.com/news/former-labour-party-mp-luciana-berger-alleges-jeremy-corbyn-made-a-number-of-different-antisemitic-comments)

What's her deal? When she's pressed she makes a very vague quick notion of corbyn having made 'antisemitic statements' then goes off to something else
she was never popular in her constituency but Merseyside is the safest of safe labour seats. I don't actually hate her at all like the rest of the CHUK-TINGERs tbh. she has always been in Labour Friends of Israel and also resigned from the front bench in June 2016 against corbyn but I don't know, she always seems pressured into it. i was sympathetic when the antisemitism first broke but in retrospect it was all bullshit from a party point of view

did the obvious thing of standing at finchley/golders green for the lib dems but still lost

she works at a PR firm now so not as audacious as the shit the rest of the backstabbers went on to do (gambling lobby etc)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Should Jeremy Crobbins be put in the stocks so the decent people of Britain can throw rotting vegetables at him?

YES 77%
NO 23%

They are called the decent Britons of Britain thank you
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 29, 2020, 10:01:56 PM
I think I'm right in saying that the EHRC report itself defends what Corbyn has done today - i.e. discussing/questioning/opining on the scale of antisemitism in the party.

To justify the suspension, they might have to vaguely say he was 'bringing the party into disrepute'.[1]

I'll be listening to Tysky in full tomorrow, but Bastani (https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1321912614524461056) reckons Starmer will be expelling Corbyn, as to reinstate him would look weak now that he's taken the step of suspending him.
 1. I wonder if sabotaging election chances counts as disreputable. Not sure where those various Labour saboteurs are at the moment, I'd be interested in seeing a recap.

Well if the Ferris family whatsapp thread is anything to go by, Joe public is delighted at the stand Are Keith has taken “against bigotry” and Corbyn is “no loss” anyway. Cor those bloody tories eh? Awful people. Anyway.

Sack away, Keith! The people are with you!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 29, 2020, 10:02:09 PM
Notwithstanding all of the chicanery, malice and weaponising of anti-semitism for factional gain undertaken by the right wing of the Labour Party, it is a fucking disgrace that through improper interference in the complaints process, Labour has discriminated against Jews.

That the report concluded this doesn't make it so. The report's criticism that complaints investigations should be independent of the political leadership is sound (and of course interference from LOTO wouldn't have been necessary if the neoliberal shithouses in charge of doing the investigating had actually been doing it). But the instances of interference it refers to show LOTO interfering to strengthen punishments, to clamp down harder against antisemitism. The charge was essentially that interference of any kind undermined trust in the system, which is a fair point, but doesn't merit the conclusion that jews were discriminated against.

Quote
Also, the EHRC highlighted that one of the reasons they've broken the law (the law against racist discrimination) is that they disproportionately decided not to investigate concerns raised about anti-Semitism as opposed to other forms of the discrimination.

It only says this in comparison to the party's procedures regarding sexual harassment. With regard to other forms of discrimination, it twice says explicitly the opposite in the chapter on complaints handling:

Quote
Jennie Formby suggests that these systemic issues affected complaints of all kinds, not just antisemitism complaints. If correct, this means that an even wider pool of members was treated very poorly by their political party.

Quote
Our investigation focused on the handling of antisemitism complaints. Some of the problems we have identified may also apply to other types of complaint. If that is the case, we would expect the Labour Party to address our concerns for all types of complaint.

Quote
It's unforgivable. No political party is exempt from the Equalities Act. We can debate who is ultimately to blame, but all the people running the party had to do was make sure the complaints process was legally compliant for fuck's sake. It's not that hard. But they failed to do that. If there are people who think there's nothing to learn from that, welcome to your lifetime of losing.

I don't see evidence that jews were indirectly discriminated against due to interference (though the nature of interference means there was the possibility for this - as for any other kind of discrimination). I also don't agree that the cases of Livingstone or Bromley constituted harassment in relation to jewish identity, although i would caution that though forceful language about Israel is acceptable, it also needs to be measured and thoughtful and cognisant of tropes and there should be none too little awareness of this. It almost felt like these were cited as surrogates for more explicitly antisemitic statements that lay members have made and which therefore wouldn't have been the party's legal responsibility.

The charge with the strongest case for indirect discrimination is training, which given how long the antisemitism embroglio has been going on for should have been sorted. The reason i think this could be seen as a fair charge is that the way some complaints were bounced backwards and forwards and treated inconsistently did create room for antisemitism to go unpunished, and given the profile the party itself had given to dealing with antisemitism (as opposed to other forms of discrimination) this appears negligent. This isn't to say that not having complaints teams trained on antisemitism is worse than the same for any other form of discrimination, but the party had in effect put itself on notice and failed to come good.

Despite my misgivings about the judgments, the recommendations are sound and all political parties would do well to implement them. Formby and her team clearly did improve things significantly - making it all the more outrageous that the findings of the report will be pinned on Corbyn - but there appears still to have been more to do, and even under a state of permanent sabotage there are steps the party should have been implementing after 2018 which they didn't.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 10:06:54 PM
she was never popular in her constituency but Merseyside is the safest of safe labour seats. I don't actually hate her at all like the rest of the CHUK-TINGERs tbh. she has always been in Labour Friends of Israel and also resigned from the front bench in June 2016 against corbyn but I don't know, she always seems pressured into it. i was sympathetic when the antisemitism first broke but in retrospect it was all bullshit from a party point of view

did the obvious thing of standing at finchley/golders green for the lib dems but still lost

she works at a PR firm now so not as audacious as the shit the rest of the backstabbers went on to do (gambling lobby etc)

"Won't get fooled again"

Gets fooled again.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:09:57 PM
Im sure I'll be fooled many times again
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 10:15:06 PM
Have we ever been told what Corbyn's antisemitic comments were? By anyone?

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 10:22:23 PM
To question Corbyn's anti-semitism is actually an antisemitic trope.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:23:44 PM
Have we ever been told what Corbyn's antisemitic comments were? By anyone?
epschteen
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greencalx on October 29, 2020, 10:24:58 PM
He stood on platforms.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 10:25:46 PM
Have we ever been told what Corbyn's antisemitic comments were? By anyone?

He said to couple of Jewish people heckling a Palestinian speaker, doing a presentation on the silencing of Palestinian people, that they didn't get British irony.


Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 29, 2020, 10:26:03 PM
welcome to your lifetime of losing.

FUCK OFF
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 29, 2020, 10:31:32 PM
Quote
Local Rossendale Borough councillor, Pam Bromley, posted on Facebook: ‘Had Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party pulled up the drawbridge and nipped the bogus AS [antisemitism] accusations in the bud in the first place we would not be where we are now and the fifth column in the LP [Labour Party] would not have managed to get such a foothold ... the Lobby has miscalculated ... The witch hunt has created brand new fightback networks ... The Lobby will then melt back into its own cesspit.’

The report judged that this comment constituted 'unlawful harrassment'. Interested to know what others think.

I don't think it's unlawful harassment in itself - the "fifth column" i took as a reference to the neoliberals, not jews, and we're in this situation again where when people complain about the Israel lobby - which like loads of other lobbies does fucking exist after all - they get accused of indulging in tropes, suggesting the connection between Israel and jews could exist rather more in the mind of the listener than the speaker. Oddly, the bit which most troubles me is the bit about the Lobby melting back into its own cesspit - de-personalising language which is probably the strongest hint of trope-like discourse. If we were in a place where jews and Israel weren't conflated so often it'd be an easier call - i can see an argument for the Commission's verdict but always prefer to err towards generosity in the interests of free speech. But tact costs nothing, and ironically that crops up in the annexe (which quotes this Bromley remark as an antisemitic trope even while it rebuffs nazi propaganda):

Quote
Some time back I got hammered for posting an anti-Rothschild meme. However here they are again. We must remember that the Rothschilds are a powerful financial family (like the Medicis) and represent capitalism and big business – even if the Nazis DID use the activities of the Rothschilds in their anti semitic [sic] propaganda. We must not obscure the truth with the need to be tactful

Personally i'd say it's quite easy to both be tactful and tell "the truth" about Israel or the Rothschilds or whatever. I don't find her language, or Livingstone's, advisable and i'd encourage the party to engage in initiatives about how to talk about touchy subjects robustly but with sensitivity, but i can't fairly say i find her remarks creating a hostile atmosphere based on race.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 10:32:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GjzJQKT.png)

This woman is deranged isn't she?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 29, 2020, 10:33:58 PM
Tomorrow I shall join the Labour Party so I can leave it in disgust.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 10:35:00 PM
I think I'm right in saying that the EHRC report itself defends what Corbyn has done today - i.e. discussing/questioning/opining on the scale of antisemitism in the party.

To justify the suspension, they might have to vaguely say he was 'bringing the party into disrepute'.[1]

I'll be listening to Tysky in full tomorrow, but Bastani (https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1321912614524461056) reckons Starmer will be expelling Corbyn, as to reinstate him would look weak now that he's taken the step of suspending him.
 1. I wonder if sabotaging election chances counts as disreputable. Not sure where those various Labour saboteurs are at the moment, I'd be interested in seeing a recap.

It looks like they've fucked up the suspension.

(https://i.imgur.com/e3VtUWn.png)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 10:35:32 PM
Tomorrow I shall join the Labour Party so I can leave it in disgust.

Just send a guff in a jiffy bag to the sign-up address
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:36:10 PM
Advanced Micro Devices is love
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 10:36:47 PM
epschteen

Forgot that. Good riddance.


Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:38:36 PM
kin hell

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elh4L0HXgAE4BTz?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 10:43:11 PM
kin hell

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elh4L0HXgAE4BTz?format=jpg&name=large)

Go out a burn this racist paedophile far right apocalyptic rag !!!! Burn their assets. Scum. Scum. Dangerous scum.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 10:43:38 PM
It's mad to see the immense utter bullshit off the news cycles play out so fast isn't it?

Just watching the absolute turgid lies unfold and watch it corrupt and sway people begging to be swayed. So depressing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 29, 2020, 10:45:24 PM
In the scheme of things maybe not, but surely a system that can't effectively get racists out of the party is a suicide bomb waiting to go off. You'd think they would have seen that coming, dealt with it swiftly then got on with other things like averting climate disaster.

I don't think that's what the report says. The report isn't happy about the exact way the procedures were implemented, and says they could and should have been done better. That's nowhere near your interpretation.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 10:46:10 PM
Lord Mann, antisemitism tsar
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 29, 2020, 10:51:54 PM
Have we ever been told what Corbyn's antisemitic comments were? By anyone?

He described Barbra Streisand's Oscar-winning performance in Funny Girl as "not compelling"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on October 29, 2020, 10:52:49 PM
OW

OW


OWWWWWWWW
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 29, 2020, 10:53:53 PM
Lord Mann, antisemitism tsar

Nail me to a cross and sponge my wounds with vinegar. They are inciting good people to violence to cleanse the Party, nay society, of left leaning, progressive thinkers. Fascism at least had iconography, this is the absence of reason and soul. A bland evil.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 29, 2020, 11:02:03 PM
not keen on this keir starmer fella
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 11:02:31 PM
WHAT IS THE CHARGE??

SUSPENDED FOR PRAISING A MURAL?

A SUCCULENT SOCIALIST MURAL???
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 29, 2020, 11:03:11 PM
Ha that always gets me fucksake!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: gib on October 29, 2020, 11:07:45 PM
+1
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 29, 2020, 11:09:19 PM
If they eventually settle on a reason for having suspended Corbyn, and it's that he's been antisemitic, do the members of the Socialist Campaign Group risk suspension themselves for voicing their support? Could Burgon and Sultana and co all find themselves similarly booted out?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: lipsink on October 29, 2020, 11:11:54 PM
Fucking hell. Just watched JOB interrupt and bully a caller from Jewish Voice for Labour who tried to explain that the leaked reports from a few months ago showed there was attempt by others to interfere with anti-semitism complaints. JOB ain't interested in that of course. Why do I do this to myself? He and his show are just toxic.

Has JOB ever actually appeared in a debate where he doesn't have control over the whole setup? Would love to see that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: notjosh on October 29, 2020, 11:14:13 PM
I don't think it's unlawful harassment in itself - the "fifth column" i took as a reference to the neoliberals, not jews

Yes, that was my interpretation too. A quick Google suggests that it's not a term with any special links to antisemitism either. If you aren't familiar with some of the tropes it's quite hard to know whether the interpretations are fair. Is criticising the Rothschilds usually an antisemitic thing for example?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 29, 2020, 11:15:05 PM
Fucking hell. Just watched JOB interrupt and bully a caller from Jewish Voice for Labour who tried to explain that the leaked reports from a few months ago showed there was attempt by others to interfere with anti-semitism complaints. JOB ain't interested in that of course. Why do I do this to myself? He and his show are just toxic.

Has JOB ever actually appeared in a debate where he doesn't have control over the whole setup? Would love to see that.
Just turn the radio off or put your fingers in your ears.  Ignoring things just makes them go away don't you know!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 29, 2020, 11:15:48 PM
Fucking hell. Just watched JOB interrupt and bully a caller from Jewish Voice for Labour who tried to explain that the leaked reports from a few months ago showed there was attempt by others to interfere with anti-semitism complaints. JOB ain't interested in that of course. Why do I do this to myself? He and his show are just toxic.

Has JOB ever actually appeared in a debate where he doesn't have control over the whole setup? Would love to see that.
i've never seen JoBby do anything outside his LBC studio. except his shit books and twitter.

also big fucking imbecile Baddiel here to apologise on behalf of Lisa Nandy's accidental antisemitism

https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/1321906946736312322
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 29, 2020, 11:17:03 PM
If they've got you dissecting evidence they've already won. The notion that Jeremy F. Corbyn is anti-Semitic or prejudiced against anyone is just so laughably ridiculous to require no additional inquiry.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 29, 2020, 11:18:44 PM
Quote
Baddiel is far more comfortable with the punching down version of racism, the kind he enjoyed partaking in.

quite
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 29, 2020, 11:20:35 PM
If they've got you dissecting evidence they've already won. The notion that Jeremy F. Corbyn is anti-Semitic or prejudiced against anyone is just so laughably ridiculous to require no additional inquiry.

spot on.

something about useful idiots sleepwalking into fascism...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 11:26:02 PM
Fucking hell. Just watched JOB interrupt and bully a caller from Jewish Voice for Labour who tried to explain that the leaked reports from a few months ago showed there was attempt by others to interfere with anti-semitism complaints. JOB ain't interested in that of course. Why do I do this to myself? He and his show are just toxic.

Has JOB ever actually appeared in a debate where he doesn't have control over the whole setup? Would love to see that.

I think David Schneider's read a different report if his tweets are anything to go by.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 29, 2020, 11:37:09 PM
Is criticising the Rothschilds usually an antisemitic thing for example?

Well obviously it's a wealthy historic banking institution and most wealthy historic banks are built on pure unadulterated evil, so criticising it for its specific actions or as a genuine analysis of the wider financial system is OK; but it is often a name dragged up out of all proportion to its actual prominence, and associated with antisemitic conspiracy theories about jews being the puppetmasters of various governments, so unless it's being mentioned in regard to somethiing specific it's usually pretty dodgy and a red flag. The report doesn't mention what Bromley's original alluded quotes were.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 29, 2020, 11:46:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/d7KCAxC.png)

lol
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 29, 2020, 11:50:29 PM
He should write to David Irving for answers and then get his wife to troll us all by sticking them up on the wall.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 29, 2020, 11:52:29 PM
Thank god there's still decent men like Gove to protect & uphold the moral standards of our public life.

This country, fucking hell.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 30, 2020, 12:42:44 AM
It looks like they've fucked up the suspension.

(https://i.imgur.com/e3VtUWn.png)

Yeah but who gives a bollocks? This is aimed at floaty-votey morons who don%u2019t know what the NEC is and vote on the basis of whatever hadley freeman says on twitter.

They%u2019ve got their headlines, this (the actual wrongness of the operational mechanics of it all) are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on October 30, 2020, 12:47:05 AM
I’m going to stop reading this thread now, because I have enough shite to be dealing with and can’t handle the fact that my homeland is a neo liberal shithole and my bamboozled family are confused and outraged at a) anyone questioning them voting non-labour, and b) being stuck with tories and being furious with how awful they are.

So I’ll post this, in reference to the guardian’s shameful coverage and call it a day.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bLqKXrlD1TU

Good luck to you all. I’m happy to walk anyone through avenues to move to Canada if you want to PM me. All the best; and don’t let the bastards grind you down.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: EOLAN on October 30, 2020, 12:54:36 AM

So I’ll post this, in reference to the guardian’s shameful coverage and call it a day.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bLqKXrlD1TU

Good luck to you all. I’m happy to walk anyone through avenues to move to Canada if you want to PM me. All the best; and don’t let the bastards grind you down.

Take Care. Just heard that song for the first time earlier this week on a Jacobin podcast. Listened to it about 20 times. Also; love the original than any of the updated versions.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 30, 2020, 12:59:44 AM
Is it really worth him continuing to fight this battle though?

If you and your supporters were being smeared by politicians and the media as being Hitlerian anti-semites who pose the greatest threat to Jews since WW2, you'd just accept it, would you?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zero Gravitas on October 30, 2020, 01:27:47 AM
Hold on to your cards lads, this is the only party you can have an influence from the inside of.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Leo2112 on October 30, 2020, 01:50:12 AM
Don't know why I subjected myself to it, but the Newsnight coverage of this was truly appalling.  At least had this guy on though to call them out on their shit https://twitter.com/BarnabyRaine/status/1321972804347187200

Unsurprisingly he was the only member of the panel Kirsty Wark kept trying to shut down when he didn't stick to the script the episode was running with.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: EOLAN on October 30, 2020, 02:17:13 AM
Don't know why I subjected myself to it, but the Newsnight coverage of this was truly appalling.  At least had this guy on though to call them out on their shit https://twitter.com/BarnabyRaine/status/1321972804347187200

Unsurprisingly he was the only member of the panel Kirsty Wark kept trying to shut down when he didn't stick to the script the episode was running with.

Wasn't the counsellor who Barnaby says he never heard of; and in reply Wark states "that does not mean that HE doesn't exist" quite clearly a woman. Looks like she didn't do too much basic research.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Leo2112 on October 30, 2020, 02:25:26 AM
Yep. Wark also decided to conjure up brand new definitions of antisemitism to beat Corbyn with https://twitter.com/michaeljswalker/status/1321990137098702849
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on October 30, 2020, 02:36:56 AM
telling the truth is anti-Semitic now

the ashes of dead palestinian children must make people absolutely trip BALLS
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 30, 2020, 07:12:40 AM
Asa Winstanley's report for Electronic Intifada. Some interesting information about Chris Williamson:
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/uk-labour-anti-semitism-probe-finds-only-two-unlawful-acts
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 08:01:11 AM
Feeling very downbeat about this all.  So many things completely fucked now.

A venal rightwing of the Labour Party happy to dismiss reality as it suits with no care for the impact or consequences in the real world.
A reactive, largely emotive leftwing of the Labour Party that refuses to see expedience over venting itself.

People that were never going to give Starmer a chance should be happy, he is a dead duck.  That isn't to say that this isn't all of his own making, it is, he never took control of the AS argument.  It will bury him in the end.

For the Labour anti-corbynites you've got a shock coming, you are going to find out, like Starmer, that destroying things is much harder than putting them together.  The Tories game of divide and conquer has been played in exquisite fashion in the Labour Party itself.  With members on both sides wilfully marching to their tune.  How can Starmer unify the party now?  If anyone has any ideas I would seriously like to know?

No, he will be the Labour Leader, that cannibalised their previous leader and at same time showed bad judgement in supporting him for leader before.  The Tories will of course infiltrate leftwing groups and work to diminish any power he has and direct leftwing group against the party.

Which is great right! Now the Tories can win another 5 years in office in 2024! Yeah that's right Tories until 2029! Three FUCKING decades worth.  Then of course due to the damage done it will probably be about time for the establishment to change it's clothes, so Starmer now fully tainted after the inevitable expulsion of Corbyn and alienation from the left of the party, he will then of course by the same cunts in the press be repositioned as the left.  Having alienated his left base after going back through the whole, there isn't any difference between them, he will fail to make any headroom in the election and without an real left membership be removed for a right-winger.  Who will win in 2034 on occupying Tory votes whilst the actual Tories take a break for a bit.

And there you go that is how it all works.


It's incredible to think back in 2010 I thought, hey this time things will be different, people have the internet they can communicate and organise better now! Checkmate establishment.

Little did i know the exact opposite would happen.  Never underestimate the self-indulgence of humans.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 30, 2020, 08:04:16 AM
I get the frustration, but after the decade we've had it seems foolhardy to attempt to predict one year in to the future, let alone fifteen.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 08:08:45 AM
I get the frustration, but after the decade we've had it seems foolhardy to attempt to predict one year in to the future, let alone fifteen.

Sure, there is always hope.  Often it comes out of the darkness as well. 

I hope I'm wrong, but I see nothing on the left currently that fills me with any confidence.

Also one thing HAS remained consistent over the last decade, the Tories winning.  Perhaps people should consider why that is.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 08:25:03 AM
WARNING: SKIP THIS POST IF YOU SEEK COMFORT.

I don't think the Tories will last that long. At the first sign of any serious challenge to their moral authority to govern, they'll abandon any pretence that this is not just a one-party pseudo-democracy and just govern by force. They've already insulated themselves against Parliamentary accountability and are in the process of neutering judicial accountability.

That's a long way off though. With their 80-seat majority, they can continue to cheat and manipulate so they won't need to roll out the barbed wire for a good couple of decades. That's a problem, because it means that the fight-back won't start for a very long time. People will continue to be duped by lies, propaganda and surveillance-driven manipulation until the point at which they're no longer able to decieve themselves.

And then, by definition, it is too late.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 08:27:15 AM
This looks to us like a new problem, but of course it isn't. Propaganda is as old as information. Manipulation is a political discipline, and was well examined by the Ancient Greeks.

I suppose that what I'm doing is seeking comfort, because people I love are going to be ruined by this.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 08:33:35 AM
i've never seen JoBby do anything outside his LBC studio. except his shit books and twitter.

also big fucking imbecile Baddiel here to apologise on behalf of Lisa Nandy's accidental antisemitism

https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/1321906946736312322

Dumb fucks in the comments too. Antisemitic trope. Nope. The world is mad.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 08:38:53 AM
Don't know why I subjected myself to it, but the Newsnight coverage of this was truly appalling.  At least had this guy on though to call them out on their shit https://twitter.com/BarnabyRaine/status/1321972804347187200

Unsurprisingly he was the only member of the panel Kirsty Wark kept trying to shut down when he didn't stick to the script the episode was running with.

We need to be fearless in the opposition of this. We are not anti-semites, we are anti-elite snide corruption or whatever. I'm boiling with rage. They engineered this rage. It is a plan and those who should know better and Ferris' family have fallen for it because "holocaust was ultimate bad".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 08:52:24 AM
This looks to us like a new problem, but of course it isn't. Propaganda is as old as information. Manipulation is a political discipline, and was well examined by the Ancient Greeks.

I suppose that what I'm doing is seeking comfort, because people I love are going to be ruined by this.

I've been saying this for the last 10 years.  There is an over focus on collecting "data" and an under focus on the the obvious psychological manipulation through both new and current media.

Kolinsky's work was the basis for CA ad manipulation techniques, this is psychology, it works by psychologically profiling people and then psychologically manipulating them into responses.

To understand this you need to understand how brains work and how they interact with digital information.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 09:04:06 AM
Sure, there is always hope.  Often it comes out of the darkness as well. 

There is major darkness coming in the form of lethal climate change. This is not a cheery proposition - the climatologists have been warning us for decades, and the things that are happening now are proving their dire warnings to be overly-optimistic. If you think this year was bad, it's likely just a taster.

It will be a crisis of huge proportions, and crises also present opportunities - the bigger the crisis, the greater the opportunity for real change. We should plan ahead and think about what our responses to that will be. It's hard to see how capitalism can survive the twin threats of climate change and automation, but we need something else ready to go to avoid falling into barbarism.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 09:19:22 AM
Hope doesn't mean everyone doesn't die.  Hope is what a hostage has before they are executed.  Hope is a thought enmeshed to a feeling, a distraction, a place holder for a mind that needs soothing.

Neither hope or pessimism do anything themselves, but at least hope is more likely to lead to action, regardless of whether it is successful or not.


Btw I just took it as IL being compassionate and saying something nice because I said I was feeling downbeat.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 09:22:19 AM
I've been saying this for the last 10 years.  There is an over focus on collecting "data" and an under focus on the the obvious psychological manipulation through both new and current media.

Kolinsky's work was the basis for CA ad manipulation techniques, this is psychology, it works by psychologically profiling people and then psychologically manipulating them into responses.

To understand this you need to understand how brains work and how they interact with digital information.

New Labour were hardly blameless. CCTV, ID cards, detention without charge...

I remember saying repeatedly "Yes, but what if a malicious actor gets into power and sees all these levers of control waiting for them to operate?"

"LOL mate this is BRITAIN not GERMANY!"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: KennyMonster on October 30, 2020, 09:24:50 AM


Hi guys, I'm so behind on these pages (I've been making a Covid cure BTW "Sick Corbynite saves the nation" will be the headline).

Have the polls closed on the NEC elections?

I haven't had an email from @cesvotes yet, and I've checked my spam too.

I renewed my membership with an annual payment last year, and I'm sure that 12 months have lapsed since but I've had no reminders to renew and my membership, I can still log in to the website, but no NEC emails yet.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 30, 2020, 09:32:05 AM
Btw I just took it as IL being compassionate and saying something nice because I said I was feeling downbeat.

I was trying! I think we're all feeling pretty shit at the mo. I'm very grateful that I have this place of likeminded people.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 09:47:23 AM
I was trying! I think we're all feeling pretty shit at the mo. I'm very grateful that I have this place of likeminded people.

I know, it was appreciated : )
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 30, 2020, 09:48:59 AM
On the plus side, we are still in a better political position on the left than we were in 2000-2010. Most of the second half of New Labour involved policies we would have crucified the Tories for if they had done it. Even the welcome investment was built on sand through shitty PFI deals, selling off the family silver and so on.

This is a post crash world and I don't see any great clamour for Blairism or further austerity. Brexit was a handy diversion for the right to reroute the abandoned communities anger into a channel that wasn't the Corbynite response to austerity. As we saw in 2017, when Brexit was seen as a resolved decision, the public began to turn their heads onto a desire to improve things domestically through standard centre left tax and spend.

There is still a desire to rebuild the town square on a national level, and be part of a wider unifying movement that provides pride and purpose. We can do much better than nationalism in answer to that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 09:50:45 AM
There is major darkness coming in the form of lethal climate change. This is not a cheery proposition - the climatologists have been warning us for decades, and the things that are happening now are proving their dire warnings to be overly-optimistic. If you think this year was bad, it's likely just a taster.

It will be a crisis of huge proportions, and crises also present opportunities - the bigger the crisis, the greater the opportunity for real change. We should plan ahead and think about what our responses to that will be. It's hard to see how capitalism can survive the twin threats of climate change and automation, but we need something else ready to go to avoid falling into barbarism.

Easy. Wealth is already so vastly unequal and power so unevenly distributed that it's already trivial to keep order by force and coercion. It'll only get more so.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 30, 2020, 09:52:05 AM
Starmer speaks:

https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1322096264205508609

Says he spoke to Corbyn the night before his own response to the report, and has 'no doubt' that Corbyn knew the line he'd be taking as leader. Corbyn, therefore, should have known that talking about 'political opponents exaggerating the issue' would land him in trouble.

Starmer outlines his zero tolerance for anyone suggesting the issue was exaggerated in any way. So I guess these sort of headlines and remarks:

Quote
Jeremy Corbyn is the biggest global threat to Jews

Corbyn wants to re-open Auschwitz

Corbyn is an existential threat to Jews

have to be regarded as fact within the new Labour? It's official: there weren't any bad faith actors weaponising antisemitism.

Suppose they'd better suspend Andrew Feinstein (https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1321911582197272578) as well, then, for saying otherwise.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on October 30, 2020, 09:52:46 AM
Trenter - You still seem to be under the misapprehension that Starmer is actually wanting to be any way left wing but is just going about it the wrong way - he is just a right wing Trojan horse and always has been.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 09:52:53 AM
I feel like I've spent the last 15 years in an extended nervous breakdown and much of the rest of the world has just contracted the same illness.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 09:54:24 AM
New Labour were hardly blameless. CCTV, ID cards, detention without charge...

I remember saying repeatedly "Yes, but what if a malicious actor gets into power and sees all these levers of control waiting for them to operate?"

Yes but this is all about technology, I means does CCTV overall have a positive effect on the world, ID cards are standard and have been for a longtime in countries much more leftwing than ours.  Detention without charge is of course a terrible legal corruption. 

I'm not defending New Labour (i've made my feelings quite on them many times) i'm saying the pre-occupation with technophobia is not the solution.  Technology is not the problem, it is the application by corrupt governments and without a population protected against propaganda from governments and media outlets then they can do whatever they like and with consent.

We have country of people that consistently vote against their own interests, the reason is psychological and an interplay between modes of propaganda and minds. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 10:03:50 AM
Trenter - You still seem to be under the misapprehension that Starmer is actually wanting to be any way left wing but is just going about it the wrong way - he is just a right wing Trojan horse and always has been.

Yes I disagree.  I think Starmer wants to be leader of the Labour Party, i don't believe your statement "wanting to be any way left wing" is accurate, as I think he will absolutely be left wing if it is expedient.  I think right wing trojan horse is a overly simplistic view that sounds great when it is coming out Bastani's mouth on Novara, but is not really a sophisticated or nuanced take of the situation.

You know a bit like saying Corbyn was the far left, now Starmer is just a right wing trojan horse, these are the puppets each side puts on their hands to tell themselves the bedtimes stories that underwrite their behaviour.

I don't like him. I like the idea of the Tories not being in power for 10 more years.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 30, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Quote
but is not really a sophisticated or nuanced take of the situation.

Not being able or willing to process overwhelming evidence that happens to be counter to ones inclinations or prevailing views does not entitle anyone to clamber atop this shetland pony.

Doing so while adopting what is a faith based position of nuance, not an evidence based position of nuance is not an act of sophistication. It is an act of someone allowing their intellect to obfuscate the truth. Which is a reasonably common occurrence in intelligent people.

The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 10:19:32 AM
  Detention without charge is of course a terrible legal corruption. 

You say that like it's not real.  It really happened.  Extraordinary rendition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#20th_century) really happened to real people.  No civilised human can brush that aside.

As far as the Corbyn thing goes, are we surprised?  I don't think so.  Now, we just need to decide whether we can brush it aside or whether we have to do something about it.  Then we need to calmly choose what it is we'll do.  And do it, with all our might, to prevent any more evil in our names.

This is not about what colour rosette the candidate sports, it's about changing the world.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 10:22:20 AM
Not being able or willing to process overwhelming evidence that happens to be counter to ones inclinations or prevailing views does not entitle anyone to clamber atop this shetland pony.

Doing so while adopting what is a faith based position of nuance, not an evidence based position of nuance is not an act of sophistication.

The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.

As someone who's used duck-typed programming languages, I can attest that sometimes what looks and quacks like a duck can often explode like a trip-mine.

I think Starmer is very careful about who he pretends to be.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 30, 2020, 10:23:54 AM
Director of public prosecutions doing whatever the establishment tells him shocker
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 30, 2020, 10:25:37 AM
Quote
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.

If it sounds like Dale Winton, it probably is Keir Starmer.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 10:27:25 AM
Director of public prosecutions doing whatever the establishment tells him shocker

Well, he just whipped to make abstention on the bill giving carte blanche to things like extraordinary rendition.  If you support that, you basically give the nod to a society controlled and run by the Establishment.  If you punish people for speaking the simple truth, as he's done to Corbyn, you make a statement about freedom of speech.

For me anyway, having a Labour Party win a general election willing to nod through stuff like that is no win at all.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 10:31:19 AM
Yes. the DPP is supposed to support the rule of law which is - or should be - part of what we think of as the establishment. If a barrister can't oppose such obviously dubious legislation then the barrister is as corrupt as the establishment that makes such laws.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 10:33:28 AM
Essentially, the Labour Party is headed by a corrupt human rights barrister who refuses to oppose human rights abuses even when it's clearly his legal and moral durty to do so.

Are we sufficiently Dickens yet? Newgate and Marshalsea to reopen?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 10:36:05 AM
Absolutely.  Now, we need to decide whether it's best to remain in the Party and fight or to leave and start something fresh.  Being angry with Starmer because he's a grifting two-face is a waste of energy.  We must use our energy to win.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on October 30, 2020, 10:51:07 AM
This is so great.

https://twitter.com/redbethmond/status/1321960647358296064?s=20
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 30, 2020, 11:07:43 AM
This is so great.

https://twitter.com/redbethmond/status/1321960647358296064?s=20

He won't be asked back on.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 30, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elii3BEWoAMAzRu?format=jpg&name=medium)

I must say. The garun showing keith as an effeminate jewish princess holding the head of the precursor of the saviour is not what i expected. Especially in the wake of two religiously motivated beheadings in France

I thought theyd dumped steve bell?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 30, 2020, 11:12:33 AM
Well, we'll never know, will we? But Starmer was always clearly shit for cunts and you wouldn't listen. I've lost any respect I had for you. Pathetic.

I said from the start i would only support him as long as he kept the pledges. I did ‘listen’ to what people said, and always said it was a weak field of candidates. This report was coming regardless, and given the inevitable media and right of the party response i don’t see how it would have gone any other way. Corbyn put out a statement he knew would draw this reaction and i imagine they expected him to do so as well. The fact he was right matters not at all. The idea that RLB would have been able to prevent all this is far fetched as well. Best case now is Starmer is challenged and we throw our support behind a better candidate. The membership (if they stay) still have to ability to take action when they get the chance.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 11:30:38 AM
You say that like it's not real.

No i didn't.

Quote
No civilised human can brush that aside.

Right now i'm not a civilised person because you just made a massive assumption about me saying it wasn't real.  An assumption based in me saying it happened and was corrupt, in the context of me and Paul Calf talking about the use of digital propaganda techniques.

Lets talk about extraordinary rendition if you like! It's real, it's disgusting, i've spent years going on about it too any cunt that starts getting dreamy eyed about the "Other Brother"

It just wasn't the focus of what we were talking about ffs.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 30, 2020, 11:34:22 AM
A bit like the chicken coup, who is the actual candidate to beat Starmer? Who can reignite the successful youth movement, come across as sincere and manage to negotiate the minefield of trickier questions that Corbyn wasn't asked in 2015 (most of the discourse was held entirely on his strengths)?

Looking at the socialist grouping there are key weaknesses with virtually every potential candidate whether compromised politically or hobbled presentationally.

My feeling is the candidate would need to be somewhat of a rabble rouser but still adept enough to be so in a kindly way and not put their foot in it. If only he existed😢
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on October 30, 2020, 11:35:54 AM
Best case now is Starmer is challenged and we throw our support behind a better candidate. The membership (if they stay) still have to ability to take action when they get the chance.

Supporters of Corbyn will be called anti-semitic.
Challengers to the leadership will be called anti-semitic.
Leaving the Labour party will be an admission of anti-semitism.
Socialism will deliberately be equated with anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 30, 2020, 11:39:35 AM
A bit like the chicken coup, who is the actual candidate to beat Starmer? Who can reignite the successful youth movement, come across as sincere and manage to negotiate the minefield of trickier questions that Corbyn wasn't asked in 2015 (most of the discourse was held entirely on his strengths)?

Looking at the socialist grouping there are key weaknesses with virtually every potential candidate whether compromised politically or hobbled presentationally.

My feeling is the candidate would need to be somewhat of a rabble rouser but still adept enough to be so in a kindly way and not put their foot in it. If only he existed😢

AOC
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
No i didn't.

Right now i'm not a civilised person because you just made a massive assumption about me saying it wasn't real.  An assumption based in me saying it happened and was corrupt, in the context of me and Paul Calf talking about the use of digital propaganda techniques.

Lets talk about extraordinary rendition if you like! It's real, it's disgusting, i've spent years going on about it too any cunt that starts getting dreamy eyed about the "Other Brother"

It just wasn't the focus of what we were talking about ffs.

Dial it down, that's my advice.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 11:41:20 AM
Not being able or willing to process overwhelming evidence that happens to be counter to ones inclinations or prevailing views does not entitle anyone to clamber atop this shetland pony.

Doing so while adopting what is a faith based position of nuance, not an evidence based position of nuance is not an act of sophistication. It is an act of someone allowing their intellect to obfuscate the truth. Which is a reasonably common occurrence in intelligent people.

The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.

Drivel.

I said i didn't believe he was and always was a right-wing trojan horse, he may well just be cunt willing to be a cunt to continue his current position without, as trojan horse, implies the pre-organisation of climbing into a fucking wooden horse first.

That is what nuance is, its a critical view of the information, maybe Zozya is right, that is why I said I disagree and gave my reasons for disagreeing.

nuance isn't using some shit for cunts broad stroke euphemisms about ducks.  nuance isn't continual bad takes on what people actually say to fit some prepopulated very well heeled view.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 11:43:49 AM
This is so great.

https://twitter.com/redbethmond/status/1321960647358296064?s=20

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elii3BEWoAMAzRu?format=jpg&name=medium)

I must say. The garun showing keith as an effeminate jewish princess holding the head of the precursor of the saviour is not what i expected. Especially in the wake of two religiously motivated beheadings in France

I thought theyd dumped steve bell?

Marvelous stuff.  More needed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 11:45:59 AM
A bit like the chicken coup, who is the actual candidate to beat Starmer? Who can reignite the successful youth movement, come across as sincere and manage to negotiate the minefield of trickier questions that Corbyn wasn't asked in 2015 (most of the discourse was held entirely on his strengths)?

Looking at the socialist grouping there are key weaknesses with virtually every potential candidate whether compromised politically or hobbled presentationally.

My feeling is the candidate would need to be somewhat of a rabble rouser but still adept enough to be so in a kindly way and not put their foot in it. If only he existed😢

Theory: Labour used to get its best MPs and activists from the trade unions, people who had learned a lot about organising, winning and ruthlessness through industrial action. Since the Tories made industrial action so difficult, Labour has struggled to find a source of effective left wingers.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 11:46:27 AM
Dial it down, that's my advice.

Try taking your own advice then, it will leave you less open to making stupid assumptions and looking like a complete hypocrite when you get pulled up on it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 11:48:46 AM
Whilst you're doing that good work, have a bit of a think about what you're achieving right now and what's motivating it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 11:52:03 AM
A bit like the chicken coup, who is the actual candidate to beat Starmer? Who can reignite the successful youth movement, come across as sincere and manage to negotiate the minefield of trickier questions that Corbyn wasn't asked in 2015 (most of the discourse was held entirely on his strengths)?

Looking at the socialist grouping there are key weaknesses with virtually every potential candidate whether compromised politically or hobbled presentationally.

My feeling is the candidate would need to be somewhat of a rabble rouser but still adept enough to be so in a kindly way and not put their foot in it. If only he existed😢

Exactly stop focusing on shit twitter storms (not focusing on you) and Blairites and start working towards building a platform challenge things.  Starmer is dead there will be a few years whilst this car crash takes place but he has just fucked himself.  This is time to build and find a representative, identify what the problems were in the past and make the processes and base to collectivise groups that have some defence against them.  Problem is you need someone with some experience of being an MP and there isn't anyone, as you point out they all have significant weaknesses.  Why is this? What can we do about this? would be a good starting place.


Or you could just try and out actual lefties as not being left enough and talk about David Baddiel for the next 2 years.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 30, 2020, 11:53:26 AM
Marvelous stuff.  More needed.
imagine getting offended because of the religious imagery in a cartoon.

Oh. Wait. The blue-tick holding up their how to be right book in profile have arrived
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 11:56:04 AM
Whilst you're doing that good work, have a bit of a think about what you're achieving right now and what's motivating it.

What is motivating it was your bad take and your now continued attempt to ignore recognising that or apologising.

You haven't got it in you so don't worry I'm not expecting anything.  Very happy to explain my thoughts and feelings to anyone anytime, also very happy to apologise to people when I misrepresent them (you know just like actual "civilised people do").

Thanks.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 11:56:28 AM
Theory: Labour used to get its best MPs and activists from the trade unions, people who had learned a lot about organising, winning and ruthlessness through industrial action. Since the Tories made industrial action so difficult, Labour has struggled to find a source of effective left wingers.

I think that's true.  I think it's also true that Blair (shorthand for the whole 80's onward thing) changed the perception of left wing politics, what they're for and who should take them up, for many. 

I'll never forget hearing a privately educated, son of wealth, sit back, after a fine dinner and excellent wine, discussing ambition, choice of career path and so on, and say he was thinking of going into politics.  He was the most venal arrogant compassion-free person you can imagine.  Someone asked, in huge surprise, because the man believes in nothing except self-advancement, who for?  He smirked and replied, why, the Labour Party of course

Labour was parasitised.  I think, intentionally.  After all, it's what spooks do, isn't it?  You don't start a war, you join the opposition and dominate it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 30, 2020, 11:59:27 AM
Absolutely.  Now, we need to decide whether it's best to remain in the Party and fight or to leave and start something fresh.  Being angry with Starmer because he's a grifting two-face is a waste of energy.  We must use our energy to win.

The only way for them to take any notice is to stay in and make a nuisance of yourself. Leaving and joining the greens or whoever will have zero impact. We’ve come back from an unarguably more right wing labour party than this to achieve Corbyn as leader, and we can do it again. Anything else allows more right wing people to have more influence over the only route to power we have.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 30, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
I'd say starting a new party and then electing a leader (if you really can't live without one) would be the better option.

Anything else allows more right wing people to have more influence over the only route to power we have.

really hate this kind of talk, basically a pavlovian reflex against anything new.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 12:03:05 PM
My feeling is that we should wait, think, listen to each other.  Look to what's said by those we hold in high esteem, calmly make our minds up and move forward together.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 30, 2020, 12:06:37 PM
Supporters of Corbyn will be called anti-semitic.
Challengers to the leadership will be called anti-semitic.
Leaving the Labour party will be an admission of anti-semitism.
Socialism will deliberately be equated with anti-semitism.

It takes an incredible level of restraint and care but we can counter this. If Corbyn was more specific with his statement, something like ‘instances like such and such were clear examples of exagerration for political ends by the media’ would be a start. I don’t think anyone is pretending there won’t be unreal scrutiny and attempts to twist words, but it’s not impossible to overcome. Not every left wing Labour mp has been destroyed in this way.

You can’t just point to this issue and say ‘it’s impossible’. It’s something we need to find the right way to combat and not just ignore. Endlessly fighting the battle in the same way just allows the media narrative to continue in perpetuity.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 30, 2020, 12:11:42 PM
The Socialist Party and Socialist Alternative exist (after a split!) - remnants of Militant.


I wouldn't suggest the SWP any more than I would For Britain.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 30, 2020, 12:14:10 PM
I'd say starting a new party and then electing a leader (if you really can't live without one) would be the better option.

really hate this kind of talk, basically a pavlovian reflex against anything new.

How long will this new way take? 10 years? 20? How long would it take to get to even lib dem level success?

If we get behind electoral reform, we can happily split the Labour party, until then it's handing the keys to the tories for even longer. It's also pretending that a new left party would somehow avoid the media monstering that Corbyn got, or even be covered at all with any level of respect whatsoever.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 12:21:10 PM
I don't think thinking about it in terms of time is useful.  You need to think about what will or is most likely to, achieve the desired outcome.  My personal feeling is that the Corbyn Experience illustrates exactly what will happen to socialists in the Labour Party (as the Party now stands).

I think that the members are mostly socialists, the unions, socialists but we have an elite, in the PLP and the Party officers, in the old guard too, who are virulently opposed to socialism.  As long as they're in a position to act as gatekeepers, Labour will not be a socialist organisation nor will it tolerate socialist policies. 

IMO, the choice is, clear out these gatekeepers or leave.  This is the nettle Corbyn failed to grasp and it was his undoing.  Our undoing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 12:21:20 PM
Not being able or willing to process overwhelming evidence that happens to be counter to ones inclinations or prevailing views does not entitle anyone to clamber atop this shetland pony.

Doing so while adopting what is a faith based position of nuance, not an evidence based position of nuance is not an act of sophistication. It is an act of someone allowing their intellect to obfuscate the truth. Which is a reasonably common occurrence in intelligent people.

The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.

Geese Honk!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 12:24:16 PM
How long will this new way take? 10 years? 20? How long would it take to get to even lib dem level success?

If we get behind electoral reform, we can happily split the Labour party, until then it's handing the keys to the tories for even longer. It's also pretending that a new left party would somehow avoid the media monstering that Corbyn got, or even be covered at all with any level of respect whatsoever.

Oh, man. You very nearly got it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 12:27:19 PM
Just to comment further on the media monstering that thugler mentioned.  IMO, the reason so many of those punches landed was because our own side were throwing them.  This will always be a problem until either those people are gone from the Party or we are.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 30, 2020, 12:35:36 PM
Just to comment further on the media monstering that thugler mentioned.  IMO, the reason so many of those punches landed was because our own side were throwing them.  This will always be a problem until either those people are gone from the Party or we are.

The fact we had a left wing leader, cabinet (at least partially) and membership and didn't achieve this doesn't point to it being impossible, it points to us coming pretty close and not taking the action required. I still say that there were plenty of wishy washy centrists who would have come into line anyway if they had the threat of losing their jobs to deal with, the actual scale of deselections would not have needed to be quite so total as people make out.

As others have said, now is not the moment where we should be without hope, we recovered from a much worse position and still have the ability to effect change.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 12:41:17 PM
I agree but as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not sure Corbyn would have been Corbyn if he'd been prepared to purge (though I wanted a purge).  That is something to think about.  Remaining in the Labour Party, socialists hoping to change the world will always know, through the Corbyn Experience, that they can only achieve their aims if their leader is a bit of a cunt.

We wouldn't have to make this compromise with a new party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 12:45:05 PM
Just to comment further on the media monstering that thugler mentioned.  IMO, the reason so many of those punches landed was because our own side were throwing them.  This will always be a problem until either those people are gone from the Party or we are.

I was pondering why the Tories haven't found themselves in the same situation with Islamophobia, and I think it's  because apart from Syeda Warsi and maybe one or two others, they're all Islamophobes and happy to work with Islamophobes (i.e. racists) and so there's not going to be any whistleblowing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 30, 2020, 12:45:51 PM
It's also pretending that a new left party would somehow avoid the media monstering that Corbyn got

Such a party would at least be able to mount a unified defence against said monstering without having to constantly fight a second front internally as Corbyn's Labour did.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 12:49:28 PM
Expelled and police investigating claims of hate crimes.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 12:52:56 PM
I was pondering why the Tories haven't found themselves in the same situation with Islamophobia, and I think it's  because apart from Syeda Warsi and maybe one or two others, they're all Islamophobes and happy to work with Islamophobes (i.e. racists) and so there's not going to be any whistleblowing.

Could it be that the establishment are happy with the tory party and have no interest in undermining it?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 30, 2020, 12:54:55 PM
Starmer sounded like an abuser blaming his victim for making him punch them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 12:55:14 PM
There is no reason why the left cannot do both.  It could look to create a leftwing party and keep members and influence in the Labour Party.  It can affiliate but place clear water between the based on an argument of how it organises and decides its policies.  Call it "The People's Labour Party" that look to progress the members roles in policy making as much as possible.   It can align itself to the Labour Party and agree to support it in any coalition.

It is not going to win but it would be able to influence the Labour Party, if those 30 MPs got reelected and we are in a position of hung parliament they they become a powerful block.  30 MPs as a starting party would be great regardless.  The reality is however this would take 10-15 years to establish. It would require unprecedented levels of organisation and discipline, which just isn't around at the moment.  That is why it isn't going to happen and everyone will just sit in the Labour Party hoping something will happen. It won't. Starmer will fail and his failure will be perceived, aided by the press, that he was too leftwing and then you will get yourselves all the way back to Blairism, which members, the members of this party, will vote for out of desperation and just having something anything to celebrate.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 30, 2020, 12:57:32 PM
It takes an incredible level of restraint and care but we can counter this. If Corbyn was more specific with his statement, something like ‘instances like such and such were clear examples of exagerration for political ends by the media’ would be a start. I don’t think anyone is pretending there won’t be unreal scrutiny and attempts to twist words, but it’s not impossible to overcome. Not every left wing Labour mp has been destroyed in this way.

You can’t just point to this issue and say ‘it’s impossible’. It’s something we need to find the right way to combat and not just ignore. Endlessly fighting the battle in the same way just allows the media narrative to continue in perpetuity.

Do you actually think that saying ‘instances like such and such were clear examples of exagerration for political ends by the media’ would not be considered to be "denying the problem" and therefore "anti-semitic", resulting in a suspension anyway? The media and current Labour leadership are totally determined to destroy Corbyn and the movement he led; there is zero evidence that being "restrained" and "careful" would do anything to placate them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on October 30, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
Is this a solvable problem within our current democratic system?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 01:03:13 PM
I was pondering why the Tories haven't found themselves in the same situation with Islamophobia, and I think it's  because apart from Syeda Warsi and maybe one or two others, they're all Islamophobes and happy to work with Islamophobes (i.e. racists) and so there's not going to be any whistleblowing.

When parties get into government, just like the kings and queens that came before them, they set about making castles and moat.  The castle are civil servants and individuals in intelligence and the military, the moat is the media.

The reason why the Tories are getting away with Islamophobia is because the left not being in power haven't got a foothold in mainstream media, they are mainly Blairites, unrepresentative of population but in positions of power to frame and coerce public opinion.  This Blairite media has interest in removing Corbyn using AS (which doesn't mean some level was not real) as the vehicle.  The Tory press has no interest in removing Johnson, they might if he fucks up enough and Starmer gives them something of interest (which could in extreme cases just be stability) but that ship has sailed now.  They know Johnson has the next election in the bag so it is more a case of them bartering with him than the other way round.

That is how it works, always has done and always will until people bother to start investigating it and seeing it as the pressing issue.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 30, 2020, 01:04:43 PM
How long will this new way take? 10 years? 20? How long would it take to get to even lib dem level success?

If we get behind electoral reform, we can happily split the Labour party, until then it's handing the keys to the tories for even longer. It's also pretending that a new left party would somehow avoid the media monstering that Corbyn got, or even be covered at all with any level of respect whatsoever.

I haven't said anything about electoral success. to be frank at this point I can't see how you can avoid fighting cops in the street in order to keep a few civil liberties in the very near future.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 01:05:20 PM
Is this a solvable problem within our current democratic system?

No. And another error that Corbyn made was not putting proportional representation into his manifesto. 

This was simple game theory, if they won they want all the power, because of course they struggled with the winning bit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 30, 2020, 01:08:47 PM
No. And another error that Corbyn made was not putting proportional representation into his manifesto.

Highly doubt that shit matters to the average cunt on the street. It's pure media spin.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 30, 2020, 01:21:46 PM
I agree but as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not sure Corbyn would have been Corbyn if he'd been prepared to purge (though I wanted a purge).  That is something to think about.  Remaining in the Labour Party, socialists hoping to change the world will always know, through the Corbyn Experience, that they can only achieve their aims if their leader is a bit of a cunt.

We wouldn't have to make this compromise with a new party.

If Corbyn had done half as much in the way of purging as Starmer, he'd have been absolutely vilified for it in the media. Starmer's purging exercises, meanwhile, get reported in the mainstream with neutrality if not outright approval.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 01:30:02 PM
Highly doubt that shit matters to the average cunt on the street. It's pure media spin.

If it had been central to the campaign, was explained and properly marketed then it would have won and lot of votes.  It also already is mana to lib den voters a lot of who would have come on board.

I've no idea what they comment "its pure media spin" there had always been a healthy interest in PR in the Labour Party.  I'm not aware of any media spin that put this as a criticism of Corbyn, that is my own belief.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 30, 2020, 01:40:42 PM
The Board of Deputies seems to acknowledge there's Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, but says "there may be a difference in scale"...
https://twitter.com/jrschlosberg/status/1322106019317751809
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 01:43:48 PM
No. And another error that Corbyn made was not putting proportional representation into his manifesto. 

This was simple game theory, if they won they want all the power, because of course they struggled with the winning bit.

One option would have been to go into the last GE in the following manner: one anti-Tory candidate (Green, Labour, Lib-Dem) in each seat, on the agreement that once in a temporary government, PR and upper house reform pushed through, then another GE called on PR lines. Then the two Labour parties (left and right) could have split and you'd have some left representation in parliament. It was very clear that Corbyn's circle didn't want that though. Of course it might have just let the fash in.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 01:44:31 PM
The Board of Deputies seems to acknowledge there's Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, but says "there may be a difference in scale"...
https://twitter.com/jrschlosberg/status/1322106019317751809

I.e. Jews > Muslims
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 30, 2020, 01:49:23 PM
I've no idea what they comment "its pure media spin" there had always been a healthy interest in PR in the Labour Party.  I'm not aware of any media spin that put this as a criticism of Corbyn, that is my own belief.

I just mean that Corbyn could have cured cancer and he'd still have been utterly fucked of any chance by the media.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 30, 2020, 01:50:27 PM
The Board of Deputies seems to acknowledge there's Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, but says "there may be a difference in scale"...
https://twitter.com/jrschlosberg/status/1322106019317751809

They got that right! Oh I see...
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 01:57:41 PM
Oh, Andrew!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1321805888349474820
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
I think I fancy Ash Sarkar more than anyone else on the planet.

No, I fancy her more than you do.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 30, 2020, 02:17:16 PM
One option would have been to go into the last GE in the following manner: one anti-Tory candidate (Green, Labour, Lib-Dem) in each seat, on the agreement that once in a temporary government, PR and upper house reform pushed through, then another GE called on PR lines. Then the two Labour parties (left and right) could have split and you'd have some left representation in parliament. It was very clear that Corbyn's circle didn't want that though. Of course it might have just let the fash in.

There is zero percent chance Swinson (or Sturgeon for that matter) would ever have agreed to that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 30, 2020, 02:26:29 PM
Oh, Andrew!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1321805888349474820
adonis has always been a dickhead, went single-issue nutter during brexit, but he's just gone mad now hasnt he? hes like a fucking cartoon
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 30, 2020, 02:31:24 PM
Seriously, I fucking hate these cunts. Just awful, awful human beings.

"I don't want Labour and anti-Semitism in the same sentence." Unless it's to manufacture an issue on which to hamstring any chance of their being some semblance of fairness in society. Good lad.

CUNT.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 30, 2020, 02:56:10 PM
How long will this new way take? 10 years? 20? How long would it take to get to even lib dem level success?

If we get behind electoral reform, we can happily split the Labour party, until then it's handing the keys to the tories for even longer. It's also pretending that a new left party would somehow avoid the media monstering that Corbyn got, or even be covered at all with any level of respect whatsoever.

If the primary demographic of a new left party was people under the age of 60 then it could much more easily avoid the media monstering. That's not enough to win an outright majority anytime soon but presumably that wouldn't be the goal in a system that allows third parties to actual have power (unlike shithole country United States)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on October 30, 2020, 03:08:13 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElldlEhXYAA3uGA?format=png&name=small)

Careful, democratic socialists of america, you wouldn't want starmer to kick you out!!!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 30, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I totally missed the part where ex-Eastender actresses and game show co-hosts became the guardians of political morality. How did that happen again?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
They're just a pair of ugly-minded cunts, people shouldn't look.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: peanutbutter on October 30, 2020, 03:54:48 PM
Better off joining the lib dems and pushing them exclusively towards a voting reform platform than forming some splintered thing that amounts to fuck all.

In terms of genuine practical good, mob violence is far more likely to achieve some kind of change than a party split with the UK’s current system. And Scotland is so far gone at this stage that I’m not sure England has a chance in hell Regardless until Scotland splits and England goes to absolute shit for  a free election cycles too.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 04:10:20 PM
I just mean that Corbyn could have cured cancer and he'd still have been utterly fucked of any chance by the media.

Yes.

This was always nailed in, what wasn't nailed in was that the supposedly leftwing press would underwrite it.  This why I was trying to draw peoples attention to James Obrien 5 years ago, Bastani's estimation is partly true he is a shock jock, but he is a shock jock occupying a leftwing populist space (and a popular one).  People don't want to read books or be given instructions, they want to interact, have opinions and learn.  Talk radio does this for people and therefore the host creates the environment in which these interactions occur in (talk radio is a political invention not a phenomena).  All it took was for James O'brien to frame the debates in a way that were harmful to the left, not overt rightwing attacks, but underwriting doubt and disbelief. His behaviour over the last 5 years could be an excellent bit of work for the left to get a grip on how to handle people like him in the future.  These are things that need to be thought about. 

Corbyn's plan relied on avoiding the MSM but this doesn't work, he needed to own them people like James O'Brien included.  JOB is so easy neuter and should have been done much sooner, Novara could have been inviting him in to discuss his takes and taking him to task, instead he was left to run rampant and be ignored.  This was very foolish.  He was an incredibly important node on twitter and with the anti-Corbyn remain camp.

Propaganda is not about telling you directly what to think, it largely relies on poor critical skills of the audience using crude measures to assess information, for instance a spectrum in which an illusion of a balanced position in introduced.  If some people on the left are passionately defending Corbyn and some people on the right are passionately against him, then those in the middle who then give their summation are the average of these views - this isn't true, it is a trick.

James Obrien talks about the footbalification of politics whilst sat in his chair with his scarf, rattle and vuvusala.  Bastani is completely on the money in the sense that it is because of his plumminess he has been allowed to get away with it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on October 30, 2020, 04:11:07 PM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 04:16:16 PM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.

Of course.

So what do people do? They have circumvent that problem and unify around a reasonable rejection of it.  However within minutes someone will have given her what she wants, an insult  of somekind she can then show to her followers as more evidence she is right.  This is how it works.  Social media should be a tool for masses, the left needs to have a dedicated policy of how to interact on it.  It isn't interested.  The right is.
Title: Hello, Spartacus here
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 04:17:14 PM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.

I think we should all submit to public investigation.  I think we should all force Keith and his friends to purge us.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
No you use and occupy the techniques used against the left.

"This is very Stalinist isn't it?"
"This is quite chilling, it put me in mind of Stalin"


Stalin is just a reference point for people and control. 

She can obviously say well "you would know about Stalin you are the leftwing" which would be fine, it is a tacit agreement that what she is doing is wrong.  We are highlighting her contemporary behaviour and this is what is important.   Over reaching is not useful regardless of how tempting it is.

You are not speaking to her, you are speaking to people that are following her.  This is how they think about their interactions.

I'm not saying this is the only solution, but it is important to consider the digital world as  a second environment.  This is the information age, lives are massively lived out online and it is a environment that needs to be managed and strategised just like any other terrain.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 04:36:40 PM
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you're saying.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 04:42:58 PM
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you're saying.

This is a public forum and the things that I write are not exclusively written for you but also for other people that do not spend all their time acting like petty teenagers.


Hope you can understand that. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 30, 2020, 04:46:42 PM
That is SO unfair!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
This is a public forum and the things that I write are not exclusively written for you but also for other people that do not spend all their time acting like petty teenagers.


Hope you can understand that.

I do understand that.  As it is a public forum, I hope you understand that it's perfectly reasonable for individuals to tell you that they can't understand what you mean.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 30, 2020, 04:52:58 PM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.

Is it now against party rules to say that Corbyn did not 'want to re-open Auschwitz?'[1] Do we have to accept that this was not exaggeration?

I'd love for someone to ask Starmer that. Someone. A journalist, somewhere!
 1. Sunday Telegraph's Simon Heffer, 2019.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on October 30, 2020, 05:00:20 PM
I do understand that.  As it is a public forum, I hope you understand that it's perfectly reasonable for individuals to tell you that they can't understand what you mean.

Who said that it wasn't reasonable? Not me. I've already said i'm happy to explain my thoughts to anyone.  i'm happy to clarify, converse, discuss and apologise if mistakes are made in the clunky world of written digital communication.

You just need to ask if that is the case.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 30, 2020, 05:12:27 PM
I couldn't understand it either.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Mantle Retractor on October 30, 2020, 05:19:42 PM
Kieth looking every inch the forensic leader here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1322201481966137345 (https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1322201481966137345)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 05:22:35 PM
Fucking hell.  What is wrong with his humanity programming?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Endicott on October 30, 2020, 05:34:08 PM
I couldn't understand it either.

I think Trenter was just offering an example of how one possible way respond to TAOberman.

eg in the example given - call her stalinist

and a commentary about bearing in mind who you're addressing and why - ie it's not her, it's her audience your trying to get to
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 05:55:01 PM
Ah, OK, I couldn't work out who She was.  I don't go on twitter but even if I did, I wouldn't bother with Oberman.  I think she's unbalanced.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Rizla on October 30, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
I think she's unbalanced.
I just peeped at her TL; she is full-on basking in the glory whilst calling now for the heads of Bastani, Jones and Sarkar. The woman is fucking insane.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 30, 2020, 05:59:33 PM
Sir kieth is looking more and more a let-go david cameron now
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on October 30, 2020, 06:11:54 PM
I think Trenter was just offering an example of how one possible way respond to TAOberman.

eg in the example given - call her stalinist

and a commentary about bearing in mind who you're addressing and why - ie it's not her, it's her audience your trying to get to

strange, I thought leftists shouldn't use those rhetorical tools
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 06:38:30 PM
It looks like she might have deleted that post anyway. I couldn't find it in order to test Trenter's theory.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:02:17 PM
Standy By Corbyn rally on Youtube goes tits up from the off! Great :(
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:03:16 PM
Sorted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-PG_L2-xoo&ab_channel=Momentum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-PG_L2-xoo&ab_channel=Momentum)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 07:04:40 PM
I like that they started with a cover of I Am Sitting in a Room by Alvin Lucier.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:07:00 PM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.

If I got in government I would have her arrested and thrown in jail, the daft narcissist.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:07:28 PM
I like that they started with a cover of I Am Sitting in a Room by Alvin Lucier.

Fucking Trickett mucked up his mic and is unlistenable.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:08:23 PM
Of course.

So what do people do? They have circumvent that problem and unify around a reasonable rejection of it.  However within minutes someone will have given her what she wants, an insult  of somekind she can then show to her followers as more evidence she is right.  This is how it works.  Social media should be a tool for masses, the left needs to have a dedicated policy of how to interact on it.  It isn't interested.  The right is.

WRONG. Give them an inch and they take off your penis/tits.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Howard Beckett was great.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:35:18 PM
Why is anti-semitism elevated above all other hate crime? I understand the more serious cases, but saying e.g. "oooh, you are good with money" is akin to saying to a black man "oooh you have a big penis". Horrible, stereotyping, but in 95% of the cases it should elicit scorn. Only one of those examples will get you kicked out of the Labour Party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 07:41:25 PM
Wow, that Barnaby Raine lad's a top egg!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 07:41:42 PM
Barnaby next Labour PM? In tears when he quoted Corbyn quoting that Chilean guitar player killed by the junta.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 07:42:47 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on October 30, 2020, 07:44:16 PM
Yougov:

Quote
In the aftermath of Corbyn's suspension from the Labour party, both the party's and Keir Starmer's net favourability ratings take a hit

Labour party
21-22 Oct: -11
29-30 Oct: -23

Keir Starmer
21-22 Oct: +5
29-30 Oct: -2

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1322213828600438785
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Kelvin on October 30, 2020, 07:48:40 PM
My dad trolled me today on the phone, knew he'd get a reaction out of me with the Corbyn stuff. Ended up yelling down the phone at my poor parents as it got me so angry, although it was my dad's own fault. Lovely mum think's it appalling how Corbyn's been treated, at least. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Quote on October 30, 2020, 07:54:45 PM
If you're a retired old dodderer who dutifully watches the Beeb to get your news and maybe buys a paper once every now & then you'd no doubt think Corbyn was the very definition of malicious evil. I've argued with my parents about it many a time, although I suspect it falls on deaf ears and they just think I've gone a bit loony.

EDIT: Oh, you mean he just did it for a laugh
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Cuellar on October 30, 2020, 08:04:57 PM
My brother's girlfriend apparently sent him the news story of Corbyn's suspension with 'Woohoo!!' Loads of wanks in the group chat fellating Keir and wanting a damnatio memoriae for Corbyn.

They're all buying milion pound houses.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: JaDanketies on October 30, 2020, 08:07:24 PM
"the Tories are racist!"
- yeah, so what?

"Labour are racist?
- five years of navel gazing and self-flaggelation
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on October 30, 2020, 08:20:48 PM
Paul Holmes rocking it on the Stand With Corbyn stream right now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 08:22:13 PM
He was lovely!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 30, 2020, 08:29:38 PM
Hooray! Diane had decent sound this time.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 30, 2020, 08:45:25 PM
I'm really hoping they don't force Corbyn to do an apology and then do an RLB on him.  I have a nasty feeling this is their plan.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 08:52:54 PM
I'm really hoping they don't force Corbyn to do an apology and then do an RLB on him.  I have a nasty feeling this is their plan.

Tyskie talked about this. There is a pall of fear and appeasement amongst the former firebrands.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 30, 2020, 09:02:55 PM
Paul Holmes rocking it on the Stand With Corbyn stream right now.

Potential Unison General Secretary Paul Holmes?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: olliebean on October 30, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
You know what? If the Tories get the most seats, but fail to get a working majority in 2024, I reckon Starmer would be up for doing a Clegg to be deputy PM.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 10:18:38 PM
You know what? If the Tories get the most seats, but fail to get a working majority in 2024, I reckon Starmer would be up for doing a Clegg to be deputy PM.

He already has a role in the government.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 10:20:07 PM
This issue is highlighting how distressingly fractured UK anti-racist organisations are. Hope Not Hate are encouraging supporters to join the Jewish Labour Movement, Stand Up to Racism and Black Lives Matter have nothing at all about the EHRC report on their sites. Jewish Voice for Labour's response is the best I've seen - they are waiting before giving a fully considered response, and they are as much anti-Islamophobia as they are anti-Jewish racism. As someone who has set up ANL and UAF branches in the past, I am finding the lack of a united front against all forms of racism in equal measure upsetting.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 10:32:11 PM
Make a complaint
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pingers on October 30, 2020, 10:33:24 PM
Make a complaint

Gnomic
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 30, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Gnomic

Fishing
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 30, 2020, 10:48:41 PM
This issue is highlighting how distressingly fractured UK anti-racist organisations are. Hope Not Hate are encouraging supporters to join the Jewish Labour Movement, Stand Up to Racism and Black Lives Matter have nothing at all about the EHRC report on their sites. Jewish Voice for Labour's response is the best I've seen - they are waiting before giving a fully considered response, and they are as much anti-Islamophobia as they are anti-Jewish racism. As someone who has set up ANL and UAF branches in the past, I am finding the lack of a united front against all forms of racism in equal measure upsetting.
It's almost as if people with petty personal grievances and personality cults who run organizations have more power than the people they claim to represent, and yet these people are happy not to require actual democratic decisions in these places.
I wonder if that could be illustrated anywhere else
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: KennyMonster on October 30, 2020, 11:57:21 PM
Why is anti-semitism elevated above all other hate crime? I understand the more serious cases, but saying e.g. "oooh, you are good with money" is akin to saying to a black man "oooh you have a big penis". Horrible, stereotyping, but in 95% of the cases it should elicit scorn. Only one of those examples will get you kicked out of the Labour Party.

 Careful there Blodders,

I've just flipped channels past C4+1 and heard a bit of Adam Hills on The Ladt Leg stating that Corbyn saying that he's "opposed to all forms of racism" is THE SAME as people denying BLM by saying all lives matter.

Gaslighting C4 cunt doing his bit to ensure more disabled people suffer under austerity.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Old Nehamkin on October 31, 2020, 12:08:52 AM
Adam Shills
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on October 31, 2020, 12:15:55 AM
Why is anti-semitism elevated above all other hate crime? I understand the more serious cases, but saying e.g. "oooh, you are good with money" is akin to saying to a black man "oooh you have a big penis". Horrible, stereotyping, but in 95% of the cases it should elicit scorn. Only one of those examples will get you kicked out of the Labour Party.

Probably mostly to prevent any criticism of the Israeli government/military. But also because it's a form of bigotry that mostly no longer exists in actual institutions of power (in the West), so it is a much more convenient political cudgel than, say, anti-black racism.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 31, 2020, 03:02:42 AM
That's pretty sinister isn't it?

Display left wing beliefs and have left wing heroes? You are officially under investigation.

I suppose Oberman is right since the US has a history of persecuting socialists and other progressive movements.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: evilcommiedictator on October 31, 2020, 08:13:35 AM
Adam Shills
Dumb bastard doesn't have two legs to stand on
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 08:40:17 AM
Dumb bastard doesn't have two legs to stand on

The role of lad culture comedians (or alternative comedians of the 90s as they like to think of themselves) and their descendants, in propping up and amplifying the Neo-liberal agenda would be a fascinating topic for a book.
Title: Koko speaks out
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 09:22:13 AM
I already have a little book like that.
Title: Re: Koko speaks out
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 09:32:23 AM
I already have a little book like that.

Smoke signal it over to me, ta
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: KennyMonster on October 31, 2020, 09:38:38 AM
The role of lad culture comedians (or alternative comedians of the 90s as they like to think of themselves) and their descendants, in propping up and amplifying the Neo-liberal agenda would be a fascinating topic for a book.

The introduction to Stewart Lee's book goes into this.

I particularly remember a line about Rob Newman's recent work is him trying to undo the lad culture that he accidentally helped to create (or something like that).
Title: Completely Electable
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 01:31:27 PM
Anyone in any doubt about what Forensic Keith Starmer has just acheived, take a squizz at Ben Bradley's twatter.  https://twitter.com/BBradley_Mans?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Obviously, pop in an extra strong before you do.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: lipsink on October 31, 2020, 01:36:14 PM
Aaron Bastani did very well and was even allowed to factually correct two points made on SKY NEWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yljRCgbtM&t=2s

Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 31, 2020, 01:49:56 PM
at most the report says Corbyn didn't do enough to combat antisemitism reports within the party. however now it's carte blanche for tories to say "Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite". incredible really
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 01:52:39 PM
Oh, not only Corbyn, that's what I was saying about the tweets coming out of toryworld on the subject.  They're fixing Keith and R2D2 and all.  Starmer has literally fucked himself, in public.

Aaron Bastani did very well and was even allowed to factually correct two points made on SKY NEWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yljRCgbtM&t=2s

Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.

Gosh, he's a sound lad.  Makes you proud.  Thanks for linking.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 31, 2020, 01:56:26 PM
Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.

It's convenient how they all 'forget' that Corbyn barely got rid of anybody (unlike Johnson over in the Cult of Boris), had Tom Watson as his deputy, took cues on policy from the will of the membership (even when it contrasted with his own instincts, as with a second referendum), and employed a number of opponents and right-wingers in his first shadow cabinet (before they all quit of their own accord).   

Stalin!

at most the report says Corbyn didn't do enough to combat antisemitism reports within the party. however now it's carte blanche for tories to say "Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite". incredible really

I know Corbyn's personal situation isn't the main point in all this,[1] but I do wish he'd jot down the names of everybody outright calling him an antisemite and sue them to heck.
 1. what's more worrying is the precarious future of the Labour left, the only progressive political force in the UK with a feasible proximity to state power
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Sin Agog on October 31, 2020, 02:59:42 PM
Aaron Bastani did very well and was even allowed to factually correct two points made on SKY NEWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yljRCgbtM&t=2s

Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.

Piers Morgan book prominently displayed on her shelf there.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on October 31, 2020, 03:13:34 PM
*Aaron lucidly outlines why Starmer's actions actually contravene the lessons of the report*

'But don't you think Starmer needed to do this to show that the party is taking onboard the lessons of the report?'
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 03:35:16 PM
at most the report says Corbyn didn't do enough to combat antisemitism reports within the party. however now it's carte blanche for tories to say "Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite". incredible really

hmmm.

He didn't do enough to combat shopping in pyjamas either.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
That Rachel Cunliff is a right twerp isn't she. Finger in ears as she's called up on her lies. Awful cunt.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
MASTERS, AM I DOING IT RIGHT?

(https://i.ibb.co/5jm1xDQ/Screenshot-2020-10-31-at-15-40-00.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Rachel, you terrible cunliffe
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 03:50:53 PM
*Aaron lucidly outlines why Starmer's actions actually contravene the lessons of the report*

'But don't you think Starmer needed to do this to show that the party is taking onboard the lessons of the report?'

Yep.  It's very tiresome, luckily Aaron has the patience of a Jeremy.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on October 31, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
Good clip. I didn't think Bastani got invited on to the proper telly anymore!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 31, 2020, 03:58:53 PM
Aaron Bastani did very well and was even allowed to factually correct two points made on SKY NEWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yljRCgbtM&t=2s

Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.

Good stuff. Ta for the link.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: SpiderChrist on October 31, 2020, 05:29:17 PM
Showing off her Flanders & Swann album by resting it on top of a radiator. Subhuman scum.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 05:30:45 PM
A young harridan.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on October 31, 2020, 07:28:46 PM
According to Tory Fibs on Twitter....

"... 7 of the UK’s major trade unions have issued a joint call for the suspension on Jeremy Corbyn MP to be lifted...."

•ASLEF
•BFAWU
•CWU
•FBU
•NUM
•TSSA
•Unite
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 31, 2020, 07:35:53 PM
Would be interesting if the public sentiment was strong enough to reverse the decision, what the fuck could Labour do?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 31, 2020, 07:36:04 PM
Glad to see the unions throwing their weight behind Corbyn, although i'm not sure the NUM can be described as "major" for anything other than sentimental reasons nowadays.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on October 31, 2020, 07:42:02 PM
Showing off her Flanders & Swann album

Well I've never heard it called that before
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 31, 2020, 09:16:32 PM
Shame on my union, but then it is harbouring Oldknow.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on October 31, 2020, 09:24:29 PM
Aaron Bastani did very well and was even allowed to factually correct two points made on SKY NEWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yljRCgbtM&t=2s

Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to reply to the journalist's claim that Corbyn followers didn't want the Party to unite when he was the Leader. His face when she claims that says it all though.

Agree he’s excellent here, and i’ve criticised his style in the past. He’s very clear and careful in order to get around the sky news fuckery and lies.

The cognitive dissonance of all this really hurts my head after a while. They just endlessly repeat absolute shit that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, but enough of it that it’s hard to counter.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 09:55:09 PM
Horrible and incredibly cynical, isn't it?  Because they know that only obsessives will be bothered to check up or think for more than a second about this stuff.  Absolutely despicable.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on October 31, 2020, 10:05:57 PM
Apologies if this has been posted and I've missed it. I used to like this woman. (and it has an embedded video so no idea if there's another way of posting it).

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1322648643107803138

Title: Priorities
Post by: Buelligan on October 31, 2020, 10:16:49 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRI9ow-QRni80IDAdghyynZPS01f1hVwEdHbA&usqp=CAU)
£200.00 a pop
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 31, 2020, 10:43:50 PM
Apologies if this has been posted and I've missed it. I used to like this woman. (and it has an embedded video so no idea if there's another way of posting it).

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1322648643107803138
yeah disingenuous as pigshit. sorry pigshit.

i don't think her heart's in politics anymore, at least not high end. cant blame her there. what a fucking shame this all is.


while you have fucks like this who are jerking off over a report that has essentially mild criticism in it. this is who they're placating. absolute fucking idiots

https://twitter.com/alexrubner/status/1322601050545803272
Title: Re: Priorities
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 10:59:11 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRI9ow-QRni80IDAdghyynZPS01f1hVwEdHbA&usqp=CAU)
£200.00 a pop

She herself is under investigation.

Plus, the Israeli state are really pushing things now. Its not antisemitic to say this. Not even a trope.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on October 31, 2020, 10:59:50 PM
Blodwyn hates all jews confirmed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on October 31, 2020, 11:03:30 PM
Blodwyn hates all jews confirmed.

I hate none. None that i can think of. Apart from genocidal state operatives.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on October 31, 2020, 11:17:01 PM
Apologies if this has been posted and I've missed it. I used to like this woman. (and it has an embedded video so no idea if there's another way of posting it).

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1322648643107803138

ffs

yeah disingenuous as pigshit. sorry pigshit.

i don't think her heart's in politics anymore, at least not high end. cant blame her there. what a fucking shame this all is.


while you have fucks like this who are jerking off over a report that has essentially mild criticism in it. this is who they're placating. absolute fucking idiots

https://twitter.com/alexrubner/status/1322601050545803272

Who the fuck are any of those blue ticks in that thread?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on October 31, 2020, 11:33:52 PM
That Rachel Cunliff is a right twerp isn't she. Finger in ears as she's called up on her lies. Awful cunt.

Cambridge graduate who was a Deputy Editor at CapX, a website (set up by the Thatcherite Centre for Policy Studies) whose primary purpose is to disseminate pro-capitalist and "free market" propaganda.
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rachel-cunliffe-81a45738
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on October 31, 2020, 11:47:48 PM
Can't believe i was among those who initially thought Rayner might make a good leader after Corbyn. Like Ashworth, a weathervane with a face drawn on. Difference being that from 2015-2019 Rayner genuinely sounded like she was passionate and gutsy, rather than Ashworth who came across as someone dutifully sticking by the members.

Can you imagine Burgon as deputy leader coming out with this shite.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on October 31, 2020, 11:54:28 PM

Who the fuck are any of those blue ticks in that thread?

good point, "dirtbag left" nobodies i guess. no idea really

Can't believe i was among those who initially thought Rayner might make a good leader after Corbyn. Like Ashworth, a weathervane with a face drawn on. Difference being that from 2015-2019 Rayner genuinely sounded like she was passionate and gutsy, rather than Ashworth who came across as someone dutifully sticking by the members.

Can you imagine Burgon as deputy leader coming out with this shite.
i'd say that from her deprived background and precarious present she has she feels she can't afford to be contrarian atm. i notice that a lot, that people with essentially progressive beliefs become weathervane because they need to look after their kids.

not an excuse imo though. i will face god and walk backwards into hell before I stop hollering at cunts. because i am. a dirtbag left
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on November 01, 2020, 12:19:37 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/nWU5T6P.png)

Can't wait!
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: kittens on November 01, 2020, 12:22:50 AM
who i vote treasurer and "West of England Metro Mayor". answer me immediately
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on November 01, 2020, 12:33:59 AM
who i vote treasurer and "West of England Metro Mayor". answer me immediately

I voted Helen Godwin for metro mayor, who's uninspiring but has the advantage of not being Dan Norris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Norris#Parliamentary_career).

I voted Esther Giles for treasurer - she won't win, but she's left-wing so a good showing would be encouraging.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on November 01, 2020, 01:02:21 AM
Presumably just like everyone else, our CLP is banned from discussing this due to gen sec's decree. I asked if we could discuss whether the gen sec should be stopping us from discussing important party matters without NEC backing and was told that couldn't be discussed either.

Also, anyone really disappointed by the bulk of the SCG or should we accept the statement from the group, rather than query why individual members haven;t pledged support? Some have said nothing, some have issued a separate statement/ tweet in support of JC and Nadia Whittome said...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElkkRYGWoAEogrj?format=jpg&name=small) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElkkRYHXgAAYE57?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 01, 2020, 01:17:50 AM
I do empathise with Nadia's stated position. She's a good egg in the party, and the more of those in secure positions at this turbulent time, the better. Her initial response for the Jewish communities was dignified (and it's the sort of thing that day should have been about).

As to what she actually thinks about the Jez matter, it's not entirely clear. I understand why she might think Corbyn 'was wrong to make' his statement on that particular day - bad timing, for example - but she also notes that 'I cannot agree with his statement'.

We all know where the controversy has come from - the 'scale was exaggerated' line. So I'll presume that's what she's talking about.

But does that mean she doesn't believe the scale of antisemitism was ever overstated? Does she not think exaggeration was taking place when Corbyn was described as 'an existential threat' who wanted to 're-open Auschwitz', and 'the biggest global threat to Jews'?

Unfortunately, it's near-impossible to answer these straightforward questions and expect a good faith reception from fellow MPs or pundits.

It should, of course, be possible to accept the report in full, accept that antisemitism exists within the party, that Corbyn made mistakes, and that the complaints system was shoddy - whilst at the same time daring to note that the threat of antisemitism was seized upon and cruelly weaponised by bad faith actors. They are not mutually exclusive things to believe.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on November 01, 2020, 01:24:53 AM
Anyone who doesn't condemn this grotesque move in the harshest terms possible is an unreliable sycophant. This was a deliberate, irrevocable symbolic move to permanently tarnish Corbyn's entire legacy. There's no going back or undoing the suspension.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: chveik on November 01, 2020, 01:31:59 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElkkRYGWoAEogrj?format=jpg&name=small) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElkkRYHXgAAYE57?format=jpg&name=small)

with friends like these...

really feel sorry for Jez. he's the exception that made people forget they should never trust professional politicians
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 01, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
Personally, the statement does disappoint me (I did not grace it with a 'like' on social media, as I did with Sultana's and Burgon's), but I've been trying to contextualise it as stemming from 'big picture' good faith, because I've admired Nadia this past year as an earnest left-winger wanting to achieve radical change.

My reading of Nadia has been this: she's a brand new MP, voting and campaigning righteously at every turn, probably desperate to cling to her seat as one of the few left-wing, socialist consciences in the party. I can understand the intended practicality of a mealy-mouthed statement like that, even if I don't agree with or admire it.

However, it might have (probably predictably) backfired because the replies on Twitter are almost all 'disappointed' - from both her pro- and anti-Corbyn followers. Perhaps you're doomed the moment you begin walking a tightrope. Pick a side and fall off.

-

Speaking of Twitter, here's a tweet (https://twitter.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/1322489872955904001):

Quote
Alastair Pringle, the EHRC's executive director, makes this extraordinary comment (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/30/labour-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-equality-watchdog) to Jonathan Freedland about antisemitism in Labour: "‘Was it 3% or 30% or 0.3%’ misses the point, really."

No, it really doesn't – not if you don't want to end up weaponising antisemitism
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: LynnBenfield69 on November 01, 2020, 07:20:03 AM
I'm kind of hoping Raynor's comment turns into a story so Keith has to sack everyone and expose the purge for what it is.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on November 01, 2020, 08:29:30 AM
The duck test is a form of abducktive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a fucking duck.


Like a biiiiiiird’s DUCK
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Replies From View on November 01, 2020, 08:36:31 AM
I'll never forget hearing a privately educated, son of wealth, sit back, after a fine dinner and excellent wine, discussing ambition, choice of career path and so on, and say he was thinking of going into politics.  He was the most venal arrogant compassion-free person you can imagine.  Someone asked, in huge surprise, because the man believes in nothing except self-advancement, who for?  He smirked and replied, why, the Labour Party of course

You were at this Henry VIII’s feast as well?

I can picture the scene very well apart from your presence within it.  Were you disguised as a servant?  Smuggled within a suit of armour?  Buried within a chandelier?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 09:29:52 AM
I was someone's date.  :(

I'm kind of hoping Raynor's comment turns into a story so Keith has to sack everyone and expose the purge for what it is.

Absolutely this.  Everyone in power is busily silencing this story

Speaking of Twitter, here's a tweet (https://twitter.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/1322489872955904001):
Quote
Alastair Pringle, the EHRC's executive director, makes this extraordinary comment to Jonathan Freedland about antisemitism in Labour: "‘Was it 3% or 30% or 0.3%’ misses the point, really."

No, it really doesn't – not if you don't want to end up weaponising antisemitism

And it is a big part of the story.  It's the very relevant part that Bastani and Barnaby Raine (https://twitter.com/BarnabyRaine/status/1322129786500796417), amongst others, keep trying to raise and keep getting shusshed by the guilty and complicit media.  We all need to keep reasonably, calmly, raising it, so that this part of the story becomes part of the public discussion.  Do not go gentle into that dark night maties.

I agree with everything Thomas has posted here, absolutely on the nail.  I never rated Rayner fwiw (and said so), no excuses, a Deputy Leader should have the minerals and the principles (as should an MP) and I'm very sad that Whittome is beginning to use weasel words.  She should stop that, immediately.  It all needs a bit more Corbyn.  Needs a bit more Spartacus.  A bit more honesty.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 09:44:02 AM
Saw this  (https://twitter.com/Craft_D/status/1322221687866380289) this morning.  The difference between Corbyn and Keith, who just gets the IDSes.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on November 01, 2020, 09:45:20 AM
Replies From View posted this a few days back. Given that even people like Bastani and Whittome are calling the report "brilliant", etc, we should be reminded that this report was politically motivated, given that no investigation is due for the overtly racist Tory party. The EHRC are restricted in their ability to investigate all cases of racism and human rights abuses and are required to make choices, so we should consider why they they chose the one party over the other.

https://youtu.be/vEX3GcgRovo
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on November 01, 2020, 09:54:36 AM
I think Nadia Whittome's just trying to both-sides it a bit - a shame, but she's clearly not an arsehole, unlike Rayner, who has proved herself to be slippery as fuck.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on November 01, 2020, 09:59:18 AM
I think she was being an arsehole... Trying to please everybody pleases nobody.

Arsehole behaviour, sadly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on November 01, 2020, 10:05:53 AM
If she's an arsehole then we're all fucked. We might as well just give up.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 01, 2020, 10:09:57 AM
I think she was being an arsehole... Trying to please everybody pleases nobody.

Arsehole behaviour, sadly.

Cowed. The left are being cudgelled into becoming the far right.

Like a cult that professes kindness and beauty and altruism, who's leader is a paedophile nutcase. "Shhh, don't speak out against the chosen one or ye will be cast out for your sins".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 10:12:36 AM
Absolutely.  We don't give up, our strength is the undoubted fact that some of us continue to sing even after our guitars and fingers are broken.  We never stop.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on November 01, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
Whittome is trying to be a good socialist while not offending anybody. Before long she'll realise this is impossible.

I mean that's part of why we're where we are - as leader, Corbyn was a good socialist trying not to offend anybody, which meant spending too long on the defensive on issues like this. Exactly the thing that Chris Williamson was pointing out which got him suspended.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 12:35:14 PM
Yep.

That thing hzj mentioned above, not even being allowed to discuss certain topics, I mean, fucking hell, what kind of ballroom is this?

We don't have to agree with everything Whittome or Williamson or anyone says but we should have the right to talk about it, hear it, think about it and make up our minds. 

And this is how they do us, you know, one by one.  We have to keep singing.  Together.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on November 01, 2020, 12:41:40 PM
What do you do?

https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidHirsh/status/1322640346250121216
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 12:45:42 PM
You force them to suspend or sue us all.  There's no need to provoke, what Corbyn said about the public's understanding of the problem in Labour (according to polling) and the reality of the figures involved was bang on the nail.  The reason that subject is banned is because, if it got into the public consciousness, the whole thing would take on a totally different meaning.  We all know it so we need to make them follow through, that will force everything out into the light.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: imitationleather on November 01, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
David Hirsh can't be very popular at Goldsmiths with his kind of views.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
Or in most of the real world, he comes across as a really horrible and not particularly bright, person.

His inability to see that guidance issued by the EHRC in a report which is part of an ongoing discussion, does not constitute legal precedent, illustrates that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 01, 2020, 01:00:27 PM
Starmer has logic'd himself into a corner. If somebody now suggests that Starmer is himself an antisemite for having 'supported Corbyn 100%', does Starmer have to accept that?

I mean, he can no longer defend himself by saying that the allegation might be disingenuous, or that it contains exaggeration or overstatement.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 01, 2020, 01:01:00 PM
I do empathise with Nadia's stated position. She's a good egg in the party, and the more of those in secure positions at this turbulent time, the better. Her initial response for the Jewish communities was dignified (and it's the sort of thing that day should have been about).

As to what she actually thinks about the Jez matter, it's not entirely clear. I understand why she might think Corbyn 'was wrong to make' his statement on that particular day - bad timing, for example - but she also notes that 'I cannot agree with his statement'.

We all know where the controversy has come from - the 'scale was exaggerated' line. So I'll presume that's what she's talking about.

But does that mean she doesn't believe the scale of antisemitism was ever overstated? Does she not think exaggeration was taking place when Corbyn was described as 'an existential threat' who wanted to 're-open Auschwitz', and 'the biggest global threat to Jews'?

Unfortunately, it's near-impossible to answer these straightforward questions and expect a good faith reception from fellow MPs or pundits.

It should, of course, be possible to accept the report in full, accept that antisemitism exists within the party, that Corbyn made mistakes, and that the complaints system was shoddy - whilst at the same time daring to note that the threat of antisemitism was seized upon and cruelly weaponised by bad faith actors. They are not mutually exclusive things to believe.

The statement should have given specific examples and not just said ‘it’s been exagerrated’. That was bound to be jumped on and used as a cudgel to beat him with, this is why she hasn’t felt able to just say she agrees with the statement. When dealing with something this sensitive and raw it’s more powerful to use undeniable examples of which there are plenty. He mentioned the 0.3% thing, that was just cases as well, if you get down to legitimate ones within the membership it would be even smaller, plus the insane politically motivated headlines. In the meantime 60% of tory membership are openly islamaphobic with no repurcussions whatsoever.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: notjosh on November 01, 2020, 01:01:46 PM
Does anyone know anything about Chris Williamson's Resist (https://resistfest.co.uk/) movement? Has it garnered any support?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Zetetic on November 01, 2020, 01:02:19 PM
In the meantime 60% of tory membership are openly islamaphobic with no repurcussions whatsoever.
I wouldn't say no repercussions; they keep winning elections, for example.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 01:03:09 PM
Starmer has logic'd himself into a corner. If somebody now suggests that Starmer is himself an antisemite for having 'supported Corbyn 100%', does Starmer have to accept that?

I mean, he can no longer defend himself by saying that the allegation is an exaggeration or an overstatement.

Somebody's already doing that, just check out the dank memes coming out of Conservative HQ at the moment. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 01, 2020, 01:08:24 PM
The statement should have given specific examples and not just said ‘it’s been exagerrated’. That was bound to be jumped on and used as a cudgel to beat him with, this is why she hasn’t felt able to just say she agrees with the statement. When dealing with something this sensitive and raw it’s more powerful to use undeniable examples of which there are plenty. He mentioned the 0.3% thing, that was just cases as well, if you get down to legitimate ones within the membership it would be even smaller, plus the insane politically motivated headlines. In the meantime 60% of tory membership are openly islamaphobic with no repurcussions whatsoever.

Corbyn's statement on the EHRC report was 276 words long. Only 45 of those words are about the 'scale of antisemitism in the party',[1] and he's still been accused of 'making it all about himself'. I think if he'd gone on to bullet point a few examples, the uproar would only have been louder.

Somebody's already doing that, just check out the dank memes coming out of Conservative HQ at the moment. 

Oh, yeah. Nice once, Starmzy. Forensic.
 1. strategically mistimed, perhaps, but you can understand a lifelong anti-racist campaigner wanting to devote a couple of sentences to defending himself.

Within those 45 words, he also makes the point that the weaponisation of antisemitism ultimately hurts Jewish people, which barely anyone in the mainstream media seems to acknowledge. Barnaby Raine (https://twitter.com/BarnabyRaine/status/1322129786500796417) made the point passionately on Newsnight.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 01, 2020, 01:10:39 PM
Starmer has logic'd himself into a corner. If somebody now suggests that Starmer is himself an antisemite for having 'supported Corbyn 100%', does Starmer have to accept that?

I mean, he can no longer defend himself by saying that the allegation might be disingenuous, or that it contains exaggeration or overstatement.

Yes exactly.  However I would wait and see what happens with Corbyn and the other MPs first as the collision between opinion and actual law will shape things going forward.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 01:15:32 PM
Corbyn's statement on the EHRC report was 276 words long. Only 45 of those words are about the 'scale of antisemitism in the party',[1]
 1. strategically mistimed, perhaps, but you can understand a lifelong anti-racist campaigner wanting to devote a couple of sentences to defending himself.

People keep saying that they think he shouldn't have brought up the massive elephant.  Why?  Because it would be easier to let it lie?  But would it?  Is it correct to allow a giant coordinated deception to rest unchallenged and drift into becoming truth?  I don't think it is, even if it means they leave you alone for a bit.

Corbyn's weathered more monstering than any person I've ever had knowledge of, he's never stepped back, even when they're breaking his fingers.  It's a big part of why we love him.  Why we trust him.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on November 01, 2020, 01:31:10 PM
It didn't matter what he said unless it was begging for forgiveness and announcing his suicide.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: LynnBenfield69 on November 01, 2020, 01:46:13 PM
You're not kidding. I lie awake at night thinking about this and I'm a total nihilist.

Imagine accidentally becoming the leader of a huge movement in the manner he did - flash forward five years and you're crucified over something you've fought against your whole life. Not only that but many of your closest colleagues and friends have joined the mob.

I don't know how he does it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
It didn't matter what he said unless it was begging for forgiveness and announcing his suicide.

Even if it was that, I suspect they'd edit the tapes to make him look like a coward and still kill him.

And we have to ask ourselves why they're going to all this trouble.  What is it that this weak old jam-maker has done to elicit such rage and hatred?  Then we need to emulate it with all our might, because their reaction shows he was definitely on to something.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on November 01, 2020, 02:08:33 PM
It didn't matter what he said unless it was begging for forgiveness and announcing his suicide.

Completely agree. The fortitude of the guy is incredible. There have been so many times, literally since 2016, when i've thought if i was in his position i'd have just flounced out of politics altogether.

The speech he gave after the Manchester attacks in 2017 was probably the gutsiest thing any politician has said in this country in the last... i don't even know how many years.

The thing is, however many people pile on to him, he knows how many people stand with him and that's why i can't endorse Whittome's statement. It's a bit like when the war machine ramps up against an official enemy, and anti-war politicians say "I am no fan of [insert leader of official enemy] and their many appalling human rights abuses, but bombing is not the answer." When someone or (some country) is under attack, as soon as you start giving ground to the narrative framework, you allow the debate to fixate on the action we simply have to take against them.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on November 01, 2020, 02:17:19 PM
People keep saying that they think he shouldn't have brought up the massive elephant.  Why?  Because it would be easier to let it lie?  But would it?  Is it correct to allow a giant coordinated deception to rest unchallenged and drift into becoming truth?  I don't think it is, even if it means they leave you alone for a bit.

Corbyn's weathered more monstering than any person I've ever had knowledge of, he's never stepped back, even when they're breaking his fingers.  It's a big part of why we love him.  Why we trust him.

I mean its becoming more and more fucking obvious that appeasement on this issue is a massive error, tread carefully be aware that some real genuine fears have been stoked but letting such a big lie pass was never going to be a good thing.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: notjosh on November 01, 2020, 02:23:29 PM
People keep saying that they think he shouldn't have brought up the massive elephant.  Why?  Because it would be easier to let it lie?  But would it?  Is it correct to allow a giant coordinated deception to rest unchallenged and drift into becoming truth?  I don't think it is, even if it means they leave you alone for a bit.

Agreed. I also don't understand the 'bad timing' charge. Commenting on the report after the release of the report seems like pretty reasonable timing. Was he supposed to wait six months then drag it all up again?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Danger Man on November 01, 2020, 02:23:46 PM
Jeremy Corbyn’s favourite role is that of the victim. He took Labour to such a calamitous defeat that its parliamentary representation is crushed to its lowest level since 1935, but he sees himself not as the perpetrator of that disaster but its casualty. He presided over an antisemitism scandal unprecedented in the party’s history, but that also cannot be his fault. He is suspended from the party after refusing to accept the damning findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s investigation into that scandal and someone else is again to blame.

Contrary to the narrative being promoted by Mr Corbyn and those still attached to his cult, the former Labour leader is not a martyr to his convictions. Nor was his suspension the result of a premeditated “political attack” designed to demonstrate for the edification of the media that Keir Starmer is a tough leader. This is not about a struggle over Labour’s policy direction or its philosophical orientation. This is about whether or not the Labour party should be a haven for racists and why it did become a magnet for antisemitic bullies and abusers when Mr Corbyn and his acolytes had charge of the party.

The report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is vindication in full for those who spent more than four years warning that Labour was becoming poisoned by antisemitism. The findings of the independent investigators are also a searing rebuke to the cheerleaders and apologists for Corbynism who tried to deny, ignore, downplay or excuse the malignancy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/mr-corbyns-self-pity-betrays-the-victims-of-antisemitism-scandal

There's loads more which makes me think Andrew Rawnsley doesn't like JC very much.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on November 01, 2020, 02:24:53 PM
I like how socialism is a cult now.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on November 01, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/uploads/2017/10/06/Andrew-Rawnsley,-L.png?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=3e65eab601929acd1494be8ff01743ce)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 02:28:39 PM
Agreed. I also don't understand the 'bad timing' charge. Commenting on the report after the release of the report seems like pretty reasonable timing. Was he supposed to wait six months then drag it all up again?

I think some people think it would've been more slick to have simply nodded and said how wise and correct the EHRC are and how great the report was.  That would've put it to bed.  Trouble is I don't think it would have.  I'm quite sure, as the perennial edgelord's post above illustrates, there were people lined up waiting to take part in the death-kicking. 

And, even if it would've put the whole thing to bed, do you want to sleep next to that, knowing, at some point, you're going to have to wake up?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on November 01, 2020, 02:35:21 PM
Comments not allowed.

Mind you I had one removed from Hyde's last wonderful scathing piece, asking if her and her centrist colleagues would like to acknowledge their part in putting the fascists that she makes such a healthy living mocking, where they are now. I wasn't rude, just a bit sarcastic. Was removed almost instantly.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 02:50:17 PM
Daniel Finn, features editor at Jacobin, on the Michael Brooks Show, talking about Why Was Corbyn Suspended From The Labour Party? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBK6mbtQh0)  Well worth watching.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 01, 2020, 03:06:47 PM
Jeremy Corbyn’s favourite role is that of the victim. He took Labour to such a calamitous defeat that its parliamentary representation is crushed to its lowest level since 1935, but he sees himself not as the perpetrator of that disaster but its casualty. He presided over an antisemitism scandal unprecedented in the party’s history, but that also cannot be his fault. He is suspended from the party after refusing to accept the damning findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s investigation into that scandal and someone else is again to blame.

Contrary to the narrative being promoted by Mr Corbyn and those still attached to his cult, the former Labour leader is not a martyr to his convictions. Nor was his suspension the result of a premeditated “political attack” designed to demonstrate for the edification of the media that Keir Starmer is a tough leader. This is not about a struggle over Labour’s policy direction or its philosophical orientation. This is about whether or not the Labour party should be a haven for racists and why it did become a magnet for antisemitic bullies and abusers when Mr Corbyn and his acolytes had charge of the party.

The report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is vindication in full for those who spent more than four years warning that Labour was becoming poisoned by antisemitism. The findings of the independent investigators are also a searing rebuke to the cheerleaders and apologists for Corbynism who tried to deny, ignore, downplay or excuse the malignancy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/mr-corbyns-self-pity-betrays-the-victims-of-antisemitism-scandal

There's loads more which makes me think Andrew Rawnsley doesn't like JC very much.

I do wish you'd use the

Code: [Select]
[quote][/quote]
tags DM. I always get a few lines in thinking 'He's really trying to wind us up this time' before I realise it's a quote.

Anyway, Rawnsley's really trying to wind us up this time.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 01, 2020, 03:09:35 PM
You're not kidding. I lie awake at night thinking about this and I'm a total nihilist.

Imagine accidentally becoming the leader of a huge movement in the manner he did - flash forward five years and you're crucified over something you've fought against your whole life. Not only that but many of your closest colleagues and friends have joined the mob.

I don't know how he does it.

Yes, his character is granite. Like honeychile says, I'd have bailed ages ago if I was in the same position.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on November 01, 2020, 03:53:47 PM
He is suspended from the party after refusing to accept the damning findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s investigation into that scandal and someone else is again to blame.

You seemed to have read the papers rather than his statement or the report. EDIT: Snap to what Johnny said: use quotes, please. Didn't realise you were walking in Rawnsley's stinking shoes.

He thoroughly agreed with the report but said that the media and certain individuals overexaggerated the extent of antisemitism (0.03% of the membership) in the Labour Party (which is absolutely true). Nobody has yet told us the grounds upon which he was suspended.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 04:16:31 PM
I do wish you'd use the

Code: [Select]
[quote]
tags DM. I always get a few lines in thinking 'He's really trying to wind us up this time' before I realise it's a quote.

Quote from: Lewis Carroll
He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 07:01:57 PM
And watch this film for DoubleDown News by the late and lovely David Graeber - The Weaponisation of Antisemitism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-oOg2J0aYc).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 01, 2020, 07:04:29 PM
And watch this film for DoubleDown News by the late and lovely David Graeber - The Weaponisation of Antisemitism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-oOg2J0aYc).

Yeah, that's excellent, that is.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 01, 2020, 07:23:45 PM
Did you link it or something very like it quite recently?  I had a bit of a search but gave up in the end (and thought it worth linking anyway).

EtA, please do try to find the time to watch the Daniel Finn one I linked above, anyone who hasn't, it really is a good, calm, clear explanation of the current situation and how we got here.  Very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 01, 2020, 07:31:31 PM
Morales (https://twitter.com/evoespueblo/status/1322969522442326017) offers his solidarity -

Quote
We express our solidarity with Jeremy Corbyn at a time when he is wrongly suspended from his party. Jeremy is a political leader and social activist who defends the cause of justice in the world.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 01, 2020, 07:35:34 PM
Did you link it or something very like it quite recently?  I had a bit of a search but gave up in the end (and thought it worth linking anyway).

Not me, I don't think, unless you mean the one about centrists. It looks familiar, though. I think DDN re-uploaded it.

Quote
EtA, please do try to find the time to watch the Daniel Finn one I linked above, anyone who hasn't, it really is a good, calm, clear explanation of the current situation and how we got here.  Very worthwhile.

Will do.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 01, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Jeremy Corbyn’s favourite role is that of the victim. He took Labour to such a calamitous defeat that its parliamentary representation is crushed to its lowest level since 1935, but he sees himself not as the perpetrator of that disaster but its casualty. He presided over an antisemitism scandal unprecedented in the party’s history, but that also cannot be his fault. He is suspended from the party after refusing to accept the damning findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s investigation into that scandal and someone else is again to blame.

Contrary to the narrative being promoted by Mr Corbyn and those still attached to his cult, the former Labour leader is not a martyr to his convictions. Nor was his suspension the result of a premeditated “political attack” designed to demonstrate for the edification of the media that Keir Starmer is a tough leader. This is not about a struggle over Labour’s policy direction or its philosophical orientation. This is about whether or not the Labour party should be a haven for racists and why it did become a magnet for antisemitic bullies and abusers when Mr Corbyn and his acolytes had charge of the party.

The report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is vindication in full for those who spent more than four years warning that Labour was becoming poisoned by antisemitism. The findings of the independent investigators are also a searing rebuke to the cheerleaders and apologists for Corbynism who tried to deny, ignore, downplay or excuse the malignancy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/mr-corbyns-self-pity-betrays-the-victims-of-antisemitism-scandal

There's loads more which makes me think Andrew Rawnsley doesn't like JC very much.

Good one punky, go and drink your milk.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 01, 2020, 07:43:19 PM
Daniel Finn, features editor at Jacobin, on the Michael Brooks Show, talking about Why Was Corbyn Suspended From The Labour Party? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBK6mbtQh0)  Well worth watching.

You're fast becoming a leading acolyte of righteous anger here, bravo.

Defund NovaraMedia if they continue the appeasement, mind.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 01, 2020, 07:44:05 PM
I do wish you'd use the

Code: [Select]
[quote]
tags DM. I always get a few lines in thinking 'He's really trying to wind us up this time' before I realise it's a quote.

Anyway, Rawnsley's really trying to wind us up this time.

ffs. Punky, give back the milk.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: honeychile on November 01, 2020, 08:32:19 PM
I absolutely echo the endorsement for the Daniel Finn video. When the entire media and political class is gaslighting you when you've just read through 130 pages of a report going "hang on, this doesn't come close to what it says, and several parts of the report are obvious bollocks", it's very calming to hear Finn calmly and reassuringly grab your hand and articulately go "no mate, you're spot on".
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pcsjwgm on November 02, 2020, 03:14:24 AM
Great analysis of the EHRC report here: https://davemiddletons.blogspot.com/2020/10/labour-reported.html

Though one slight disagreement I have is his characterisation of the so-called Macpherson principle or standard, which he describes (sardonically) as stating: "if you say you have two heads, then you do indeed have two heads and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise." The claim that "a minority was best placed to define prejudice against it" and should be "allowed to define the racism they face" (which effectively means any accusation of racism has to be accepted as true), made by Jonathan Freedland (https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/1014947936046854146) and other witch-hunters, is based on a misreading of the Macpherson report, and is not a "principle" that Macpherson came up with. Antony Lerman explains:

Quote
Second assertion: ‘Labour’s decision means a break from the Macpherson standard, which held that a minority was best placed to define prejudice against it’—Freedland tweet 5 July

The second ‘killer’ assertion about the NEC code is also based on an accusation of Labour’s alleged rejectionism: this time its denying of the validity of a supposedly standard understanding of who has the last word in determining the nature of prejudice against any minority group.

What critics claim is that the NEC has rejected the alleged universally accepted Macpherson definition of racism, the notion of the absolute right of a minority to define for itself what constitutes prejudice against it. ‘It is for Jews to determine for themselves what antisemitism is’, stated BoD president Marie van der Zyl and JLC chair Jonathan Goldstein on 5 July. But critics go further. In Nick Cohen’s words, it’s ‘the party’s decision to make Jews the only ethnic minority Labour denies the right to define the racism they face’ 

In a letter sent to Jennie Formby on 10 July, the professional heads of the Community Security Trust (CST), the BoD and the JLC state: ‘It is for the Jewish community to decide what does and what does not constitute racism towards us, just as any other groups has the right to do.’ ‘This attempt at defining prejudice on behalf of the Jewish community in the face of our clear advice constitutes a significant departure from established anti-racist [principles] that will worry all minorities’.

This apparent iron rule, as Freedland indicates in his tweet, is derived from the report of the Inquiry into the conduct of the police in investigating the killing of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence, conducted under the chairmanship of Sir William Macpherson and published on 24 February 1999. It is claimed that the Macpherson report produced a definition of racism that conferred the right on any minority to be the sole arbiters of what constitutes the racism they experience. Thus, it’s for Jews alone to define what is antisemitism.

The problem with this claim is that Macpherson produced no such definition. And yet it continues to be made indignantly and insistently by Jewish groups no matter how often it is clearly proven to be a misreading of the 1999 report. And even as I write, there is news that the Jewish Labour Movement is presenting to the party on 17 July legal advice claiming that Labour may have breached the equalities act by ignoring the so-called Macpherson principle in its new NEC code of conduct on antisemitism.

As I explained in a piece for openDemocracy in June 2011, in connection with accusations levelled at the time against the Universities and Colleges Union that by rejecting the EUMC working definition of antisemitism they were denying Jews the Macpherson-conferred right to define it for themselves, the only definition of racism Macpherson produced was of institutional racism. However, he did also define a racist incident, describing it as ‘any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person’. But this was a specific instruction to the police that the victim’s perception of the motive for an attack is what the police must record as the motive for the attack. The intention of providing this definition was to change police culture prevailing at the time, which systematically failed to take heed of the experience of victims. But there is nothing in the report suggesting a move from a specific and very important rule about recording the victim’s perception of what occurred to a general rule that only the victim can define the racism they experience.

That this elision is highly problematic was in fact recognised by the CST. Its Antisemitic Discourse Report 2009 states:

The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry definition of a racist incident has significantly influenced societal interpretations of what does and does not constitute racism, with the victim’s perception assuming paramount importance. CST, however, ultimately defines incidents against Jews as being antisemitic only where it can be objectively shown to be the case [emphasis added], and this may not always match the victim’s perception as called for by the Lawrence Inquiry. CST takes a similar approach to the highly complex issue of antisemitic discourse, and notes the multiplicity of opinions within and beyond the Jewish community concerning this often controversial subject.

This is of course perfectly logical, because if an incident results in a prosecution being brought against the alleged perpetrator, judges and juries listen to the evidence and make objective judgements as required by the law of the land. They do not say: ‘Well, if the victim says the attacker was motivated by antisemitism, that’s all the evidence needed to convict.’

Professor David Feldman, director of the highly respected Pears Institute for the Study of Antisemitism, Birkbeck University of London, in a 22-page sub-report for the Parliamentary Committee Against Antisemitism published in 2015, concurred: ‘Macpherson’s report has been misinterpreted and misapplied . . . In short a definition [of antisemitism] which takes Jews’ feelings and perceptions as its starting point and which looks to the Macpherson report for authority is built on weak foundations.’ Feldman continues:

More fundamentally, if we rest our definitions of racism on the perceptions of minority groups then we open the way to conceptual and political chaos. For if the identification of racism becomes a matter of subjective judgment only, then we have no authority other than the perception of a minority or victim group with which to counter the contrary subjective opinions of perpetrators who deny they are racists. Without an anti-racist principle which can be applied generally we are left in a chaotic situation in which one subjective point of view faces another.

Note the measured tone of the CST’s statement in 2009 and the intemperate, accusatory, intolerant and angry tone of CST missives and blog posts about the current controversies concerning the Labour party, a tone echoed also in BoD and JLC statements.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/why-turning-to-jewish-exceptionalism-to-fight-antisemitism-is-failing-project/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 05:38:04 AM
And something to mull from lovely Ronan Burtenshaw at Jacobin -

Quote
This alliance — of members and trade unions — must now stand up and insist that the attempt to erase the past five years, expressed most clearly in the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn from the party, is halted. Between them, they have funded the party machine. They have built it, too, from door to door, often in miserable conditions, giving of their own time and effort with little appreciation. They must now throw a spanner in its works.

In the context of a government that is driving millions toward penury, and many toward death, by its handling of the pandemic, and against the backdrop of a political arena that is increasingly shaped by individuals who are unashamed in their aspirations to demolish the meager remnants of equality and democracy that have survived recent decades, the Labour leadership has decided to wage war against the Left. That cannot be allowed to stand.

If it is, it guarantees that the coming years will see little if any meaningful opposition to the march toward the right socially, culturally, and economically. Labour’s members and supporters, instead of being active in fighting for their values, will be told simply to wait for an election that takes place years down the road, in God knows what kind of wasteland the Tory government has left behind.

Be in no doubt: if Jeremy Corbyn is driven out of the Labour Party, it will be socialism that is expelled from British politics for the foreseeable future. We must build the strongest possible alliance to ensure that this suspension is overturned.

Do not give up, dear comrades, there are many many of us and we must stand firm together.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/10/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-suspension-starmer
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on November 02, 2020, 07:11:36 AM
Great analysis of the EHRC report here: https://davemiddletons.blogspot.com/2020/10/labour-reported.html

Though one slight disagreement I have is his characterisation of the so-called Macpherson principle or standard, which he describes (sardonically) as stating: "if you say you have two heads, then you do indeed have two heads and nobody has the right to tell you otherwise." The claim that "a minority was best placed to define prejudice against it" and should be "allowed to define the racism they face" (which effectively means any accusation of racism has to be accepted as true), made by Jonathan Freedland (https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/1014947936046854146) and other witch-hunters, is based on a misreading of the Macpherson report, and is not a "principle" that Macpherson came up with. Antony Lerman explains:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/why-turning-to-jewish-exceptionalism-to-fight-antisemitism-is-failing-project/

Great post, thank you for explaining that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 07:14:08 AM
The statement should have given specific examples and not just said ‘it’s been exagerrated’. That was bound to be jumped on and used as a cudgel to beat him with, this is why she hasn’t felt able to just say she agrees with the statement. When dealing with something this sensitive and raw it’s more powerful to use undeniable examples of which there are plenty. He mentioned the 0.3% thing, that was just cases as well, if you get down to legitimate ones within the membership it would be even smaller, plus the insane politically motivated headlines. In the meantime 60% of tory membership are openly islamaphobic with no repurcussions whatsoever.

Oh, put a sock in it. You just can't admit you were wrong, can you? Your boy has royally fucked us.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 07:15:50 AM
Daniel Finn, features editor at Jacobin, on the Michael Brooks Show, talking about Why Was Corbyn Suspended From The Labour Party? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBK6mbtQh0)  Well worth watching.

I've watched that now and I concur that it is well worth watching. Forensic, even.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 02, 2020, 07:36:23 AM
And something to mull from lovely Ronan Burtenshaw at Jacobin -

Do not give up, dear comrades, there are many many of us and we must stand firm together.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/10/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-suspension-starmer

I think it needs more than the suspension overturned for me to once more look into those red (blue) eyes. Starmer should resign. Right wing MPs expelled and the socialist heart to beat without fear once more.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 07:40:21 AM
Well, of course, the unsaid truth is if Starmer reinstates him, he'll have to explain why.  Personally I don't think he can, I think he's shot himself up the anus because, if he refuses to reinstate, he'll have to explain why he's banned him (and why he backed him in the past).  Either way, I believe his killed himself very forensically.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 02, 2020, 07:42:58 AM
Well, of course, the unsaid truth is if Starmer reinstates him, he'll have to explain why.  Personally I don't think he can, I think he's shot himself up the anus because, if he refuses to reinstate, he'll have to explain why he's banned him (and why he backed him in the past).  Either way, I believe his killed himself very forensically.

But...but, how many times do we say this or something similar (across party lines) and they WRIGGLE out of it. Only Swinson has paid the price for cuntery that I can think of. Farage still surfing the sin black waves, Johnson wobbly but atop a throne of mendaciousness, Starmer dead-eyed floating in the void but rampant still.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 07:56:57 AM
No one really attacks Farage, do they?  We all agree the man's a cunt so he's a bit immune - similar with Johnson, though, I think if a vid of him talking with disdain about his idiot voters, a la Brown, got out, things might go differently.

Starmer sold himself to the membership with his promise of Corbyn without the Corbyn.  This duplicitous, unscrupulous behaviour is showing him up for the anti-Corbyn he absolutely is and it's going to play right into the hands of the tories - who'll ask, quite reasonably, already are asking, if Corbyn was such an obvious baddie, why did you back him?  He just ends up looking duplicitous and weak.  I think he's going to get his.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 08:01:47 AM
Oh, put a sock in it. You just can't admit you were wrong, can you? Your boy has royally fucked us.

I already said that i agreed with his statement, just that it could have been improved and worded better. Apparently that's not enough. I've not defended the decision to suspend him whatsoever, but i do believe he expected it to happen.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: greenman on November 02, 2020, 08:27:15 AM
duplicitous and weak.

From the marketing team who brought you Teresa May.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 08:31:18 AM
I think he's going to get his.

He's going to get his glittering career as a consultant and public speaker, his peerage and a solid gold pension. That's what he's going to get.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 08:31:47 AM
I already said that i agreed with his statement, just that it could have been improved and worded better.

It wouldn't have made any difference, you idiot. Your boy wanted to get rid. He was obviously untrustworthy right from the outset but you wouldn't have it. And you're still making excuses for him.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 08:57:39 AM
Thanks for the Daniel Finn vid - just working my way through it before work.

I disagree with his initial assessment i.e. that Starmer had set this up to suspend Corbyn, Corbyn saw that this was going to happen so moved to dominate the story with his comment.  I don't think this is the case, or rather I think other assessments are more likely and therefore just brazenly saying as if it is defacto true is (possibly at this stage - I may well go on to be proved wrong) over gaming things.

First off it isn't good for Starmer, it weakens him politically within his own party and strategically outside of it.  If he had pre-planned suspending Corbyn you would think he would not have botched it as he did with influencing the NEC. 

What would have/did happen, which Finn goes on to explain and is much more cogent, is that the press exaggerated the report findings and would have began pressurising Starmer to suspend Corbyn.  As is pointed out by Finn Corbyn was not suspended for the report, it was for his response.  So now we have Starmer, betting on Corbyn saying something that he could suspend him for.  Finn makes a big mistake a little bit later here in that he says the report implies that any dismissal or claims of exaggeration of AS are in themselves AS, which it specifically doesn't say, it says dismissing all claims of AS as exaggeration or politically motivated is in itself AS.  Which is exactly why Corbyn's suspension isn't legally sound by the EHRC standards (and if it was then Corbyn could have been suspended on the basis of the report). 

This is where it gets murky.  So it perhaps makes sense here that Starmer foolishly thought suspending Corbyn was useful but failing to have anything in the report that would serve legally to do so cobbled something together from his statement.  However this is still not going to be legal.  Possible, but unnecessary and badly handled, but perhaps a feature of incompetence.

I think however it is much more likely that the press fervour was reaching fever pitch, Starmer is faced with Corbyn's comment that would in any normal time would not be a suspendible offence but with media pressure he felt he had to act to appear "decisive".

I don't think this is essentially a better situation in regards to Starmer than the pre-planned one, I think however it is important as the diagnosis is important for the treatment.  For my money this is a largely rightwing press working at an apex with Blairites in a common cause to get remove the party of it's left influence, and that they are seeking to influence and shape the Labour Party and Starmer rather than him being of this ilk and already supplanted like a "trojan horse".  This has advantages strategically as pointing out your party leader is capitulating to the rightwing actually appeals to people much more, it is weakness and poor leadership rather than savvy machiavellian politicking.

That is if you want to remove him.  Which if people do they need to have an alternative.  Still the biggest danger (that I fear is most likely to happen now), as has been pointed out by Bastani (who was great on Sky!) is you are looking at another Kinnock, who in essence just becomes a very long-winded stalking horse for the rightwing. 
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 09:02:06 AM
You're assuming that Starmer wants to be PM or cares about Labour winning the next election, or any other. Starmer is there to do a job, and it is not to win elections. It's to make the party safe for corporate kleptocracy.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 09:07:21 AM
It wouldn't have made any difference, you idiot. Your boy wanted to get rid. He was obviously untrustworthy right from the outset but you wouldn't have it. And you're still making excuses for him.

Totally disagree. It's impossible to twist very specific points, where as vague ones were endlessly presented as meaning something they did not.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 09:23:36 AM
You're assuming that Starmer wants to be PM or cares about Labour winning the next election, or any other. Starmer is there to do a job, and it is not to win elections. It's to make the party safe for corporate kleptocracy.

Why is this just a given? It seems very defeatist to me.

If this is true, which i don't think it is, what is the plan then? He may well receive a boost in the polls from suspending Corbyn (because of the media reporting) and then what? Lets say he manages to win support outside of the membership, wins despite them? then what?

If the idea is to tear him down then how are people going to do this when a lot of people that are not into corporate kleptocracy find saying such things about him akin to the conspiratorial paranoid left they keep being told about?  How do you want to deal with these people, how would you like to convince them otherwise?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 09:35:56 AM
I don't think he'd be particularly unhappy about winning an election or gaining a boost in the polls. I just don't see that it's anywhere near the top of his to-do list.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: bgmnts on November 02, 2020, 09:38:23 AM
Why is this just a given? It seems very defeatist to me.

The lack of any opposition to even the shittiest of Tory decisions gives it away a bit.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 09:43:07 AM
Well, he seems just to be playing it safe, triangulating and waiting for the Tories to make a big mistake. Unfortunately, they've been busy immunising themselves from accountability for the last year or so and building an unaccountable security and surveillance state that makes the Stasi look like Enfield Neighbourhood Watch. This is not hyperbole.

He must be able to see this. If he can't, then he's just catastrophically incompetent, but I think he has an eye on  a peerage and an invitation to the 1% club. Hanlon's Razor is broken.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 10:31:29 AM
Thanks for the Daniel Finn vid - just working my way through it before work.

I disagree with his initial assessment i.e. that Starmer had set this up to suspend Corbyn, Corbyn saw that this was going to happen so moved to dominate the story with his comment.  I don't think this is the case, or rather I think other assessments are more likely and therefore just brazenly saying as if it is defacto true is (possibly at this stage - I may well go on to be proved wrong) over gaming things.

Just working my way through your comments - Finn actually says

Quote
It (the EHRC Report) doesn't recommend action against Corbyn or indeed against any named individual, it's not really about individuals.  The recommendations it makes are about policy and procedures and, whether that's valid or not, it certainly doesn't furnish any basis for Corbyn to be disciplined or suspended or expelled.  Starmer went ahead with this anyway, which makes it hard not to believe that this was a pre-planned move.  And perhaps, precisely because the report didn't measure up to the hype, it didn't supply the basis for a disciplinary action against Corbyn, he had to go for broke by pushing through this completely unjustified measure.  Unjustified and unjustifiable.  Because then, that's what would dominate the headlines.  And, indeed, that's what we've seen, it has drowned out any kind of sober reckoning or analysis of the contents of the report itself.  All everyone is talking about is the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended.

So you're not really correct in your characterisation of Finn's initial assessment.  He's actually saying that it was Starmer, not Corbyn who engineered the drowning out of the contents of the report by forcing the story onto Corbyn's suspension. 

IMO, he did this because he and his advisors had sight of the report in advance (we know this), knew it would not damn Corbyn and worse still, if people started to read it and discuss it (especially in the light of the McNicol/Oldknow Whatsapp revelations), they would understand that a great deal of responsibility for failings that took place lay at the door of Starmer's own friends.  Some of whom he's recently paid off using party funds.

Maybe you should give it another listen.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on November 02, 2020, 10:59:50 AM
Starmer already is as right wing as it gets in the labour party, trenter - he was just pretending not to be to get elected (it appears he was sadly right in assessing the number of gullible members out there). Not sure why you can't get your head around that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 11:13:57 AM
Starmer already is as right wing as it gets in the labour party, trenter - he was just pretending not to be to get elected (it appears he was sadly right in assessing the number of gullible members out there). Not sure why you can't get your head around that.

Sorry very much doubt he's as right wing as it gets. I think this is very naive. He's been shit, but there are worse in the party.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 11:16:34 AM
Heheh, have to ask, how much worse and who?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 11:26:03 AM
Heheh, have to ask, how much worse and who?

As an example, nationalisation of railways is now confirmed as Labour policy post Corbyn, I imagine there are more than a few who would happily have gotten rid of that. Out of those who have been leadership canidates Liz Kendall has been a more outspoken right wing voice for example, but there are plenty more. As I recall Starmer backed Burnham in the leadership election that Corbyn won, who was undoubtedly the most left wing of the other candidates. I very much doubt he's as right wing as Blair either to be quite honest.

I'd accept that we don't fully know yet. He doesn't seem to want to announce policy positions on anything at the moment. I could be wrong but i doubt it.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 11:38:04 AM
Still, you had to think about it, didn't you?  Says something, that.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: holyzombiejesus on November 02, 2020, 11:52:30 AM
I'd accept that we don't fully know yet. He doesn't seem to want to announce policy positions on anything at the moment. I could be wrong but i doubt it.

He was at least partly elected due to his pledge to carry over policies from the 2017/ 2019 manifestos. Judging from his actions and statements (or lack of), he's already binned around half of them. The remaining ones, IMO, just haven't been tested yet. We'll have a weak lemon squash version of the 2019 manifesto, too scared of upsetting vested interests to propose anything genuinely transformative. Do you genuinely believe otherwise?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: jobotic on November 02, 2020, 11:55:09 AM
He's addressing the CBI. Reckon he's gonna go in hard on workers' rights and collective bargaining.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 12:01:15 PM
He was at least partly elected due to his pledge to carry over policies from the 2017/ 2019 manifestos. Judging from his actions and statements (or lack of), he's already binned around half of them. The remaining ones, IMO, just haven't been tested yet. We'll have a weak lemon squash version of the 2019 manifesto, too scared of upsetting vested interests to propose anything genuinely transformative. Do you genuinely believe otherwise?

My position is the same as before, he will have to keep the major stuff from the last manifesto or he won't make it to the election at all. I wasn't expecting it to be exactly the same, but there are some very popular policies there that it's going to be hard to drop entirely. Given how badly it's gone so far I have my doubts that he will get the chance to even announce a position on most of this stuff. I really think the binning of stuff is going to hurt him. He's been too cynical with the membership and they will remember that, still needs to be a good candidate to challenge him though. I actually think keeping the green new deal and a few other things would be enough to keep much of the left on side if he does get the chance to get to the election.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 12:20:16 PM
My position is the same as before, he will have to keep the major stuff from the last manifesto or he won't make it to the election at all.

Do you actually believe this? He's currently ridding the party of everyone who cares about any of that stuff.

Mate, it's not a sign of weakness to say "I accept that I got it wrong and this gilded prick is a threat to the existence of the Labour Party"
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 02, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
Quote
My position is the same as before, he will have to keep the major stuff from the last manifesto or he won't make it to the election at all.

Utter rubbish. He has command and there are years to go so much time will pass until he is forced to express a policy. Outside of the socialist left people won't hold him to this original document of loose pledges. External circumstances will provide the pretext to them being ditched as 'now no longer affordable' or 'unrealistic' or 'no longer an immediate priority, and if that's not possible, the commitments will become diluted and diffuse until they more resemble the Ed Stone than the 2017 manifesto.

He has already included caveats right in his first pledges, dilution through weasel words and semantics.

He has already proven himself a snake and utterly bad faith actor so why anyone would reach a conclusion that he is bound by some solemn oath, especially after this year, is ludicrous.

I expect he may try a charm offensive for the left at some point but this is all about testing the water and seeing what the party and its members will put up with.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 12:27:45 PM
I think it's worse than that: who needs the members when you've got all your corporate donors back?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 12:27:53 PM
Do you actually believe this? He's currently ridding the party of everyone who cares about any of that stuff.

Mate, it's not a sign of weakness to say "I accept that I got it wrong and this gilded prick is a threat to the existence of the Labour Party"

I'm talking about his chances of success there, not what I want to happen. I've said several times I would support a leadership challenge. He cannot rid the party of it's membership (and i doubt he'll rid it of Corbyn et al either) who are largely left wing and want good left wing policies we've been fighting for for years, many of which featured in the last 2 manifestos. I'm not sure he's a threat to the existence of the Labour party, but more of a threat to what it should stand for. Breaking the pledges will come back to haunt him I'm sure.

I find it hard to admit that I got it wrong when I said it was a poor set of choices from the get go and that I didn't see us winning the next election.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 12:29:05 PM
If there is a split, the Labour Party will cease to exist as an electoral force. That's what I mean when I say that it's a existential threat.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 12:34:53 PM
If there is a split, the Labour Party will cease to exist as an electoral force. That's what I mean when I say that it's a existential threat.

Surely if Corbyn et al were going to spit from Labour they would've done it under Blair rather than waiting until now?

I don't see the need for a split when the NEC (hopefully) and membership are still plenty left wing, we've not been completely driven out and I think the right wingness of Starmer in the context of the party as a whole is a little overblown (admittedly not fully known at this point).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: idunnosomename on November 02, 2020, 12:38:09 PM
Keir Starmer is a rancid ham pass it on
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 12:45:35 PM
Surely if Corbyn et al were going to spit from Labour they would've done it under Blair rather than waiting until now?

I don't see the need for a split when the NEC (hopefully) and membership are still plenty left wing, we've not been completely driven out and

Blair didn't suspend (and let's face it, expel) Corbyn.

Also, at the time Corbyn and McDonnell didn't represent a long-lost dream of fairness and equality within the party. That administration showed people what was possible and Starmer and his friends TORE IT UP IN THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE WHO HELPED LABOUR GET SO FAR.

Can you not understand why people are livid about this gold-plated dipstick?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Paul Calf on November 02, 2020, 12:48:12 PM
Quote
I think the right wingness of Starmer in the context of the party as a whole is a little overblown (admittedly not fully known at this point).

He whipped to abstain on a bill legalising war crimes by British troops, preventing British servicepeople from suing the forces for maltreatment and giving British secret police legal impunity to kill, rape and torture British citizens.

If he's not especially right wing, he's certainly the most authoritarian leader of any supposed 'labour movement' in...Europe? The world? Who else has done this?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Thomas on November 02, 2020, 12:51:09 PM
He's addressing the CBI. Reckon he's gonna go in hard on workers' rights and collective bargaining.

Quote from: Starmer
'The last thing I want to do is to refight the battle over Brexit. That argument is over.'

The argument was apparently still going in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019, when he was 100% refighting the battle and helping to shed Leave voters, but now this knight of the realm has gallantly lowered his remainer's sword.[1]
 1. and it's 'accidentally' cut Jeremy's head off on the way down.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on November 02, 2020, 12:54:56 PM
Quote
'The last thing I want to do is to refight the battle over Brexit. That argument is over.'

Those sentences don't relate to each other. It's like saying, 'The last thing I want to do is put the bins out. That argument is over'.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 12:58:48 PM
Just working my way through your comments - Finn actually says

So you're not really correct in your characterisation of Finn's initial assessment.  He's actually saying that it was Starmer, not Corbyn who engineered the drowning out of the contents of the report by forcing the story onto Corbyn's suspension.

Quote
The recommendations it makes are about policy and procedures and, whether that's valid or not, it certainly doesn't furnish any basis for Corbyn to be disciplined or suspended or expelled.  Starmer went ahead with this anyway, which makes it hard not to believe that this was a pre-planned move.  And perhaps, precisely because the report didn't measure up to the hype, it didn't supply the basis for a disciplinary action against Corbyn, he had to go for broke by pushing through this completely unjustified measure.  Unjustified and unjustifiable.  Because then, that's what would dominate the headlines.

I did give it another listen and you are right, i've made an error I as misheard him and thought he said "Corbyn had to go for broke" i.e. having to dominate the story as how the report was being spun.

In which case this is in fact is worse from Finn, as he has missed out two essential aspects of that are key, 1) Corbyn's statement and 2) Corbyn's interview, it is after these two things that he was suspended.  Whatever we think about the situation him leaving out the statements in there chronology of his argument is very poor.  There seems very little argument from anyone that the precipitating factor was the statements made after the report (regardless of whether that is right or not).

You also might want to check out the parts i've highlighted in red, these are things that people often do with persuasive language, they assert definite propositions then subtly roll them back (you can look all this up in the area of critical discourse analysis), Finn is actually not as convinced of his own positions as he would make out.  I'm not saying Finn is unreliable or trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, these are devices of language that are employed intentionally, unintentionally or more often than not carelessly in the pursuit of a greater point (Bastani is great for the last one). 

I'm not sure on relistening to that it does anything but throw more support towards my theory (which i've outlined if you want to revisit).  Dissecting someones intentions to avoid a collision with the press or premeditatedly wanting to suspend an MP is going to be tricky, but if you want to try and do this you need to try and disprove both possibilities rather than just be inductive purely about your own hypothesis as it just comes down to "I can see him doing this because I think this way about him and therefore it seems to be true", I mean what would him thinking "shit Corbyn has made this statement, the press are starting to run with it, fuck i'm going to have to suspend him to try and deal with this" look any different from anything you've said? (likewise we could say the same about my theory, hence why everything should be examined and tested before jumping in).

Quote
IMO, he did this because he and his advisors had sight of the report in advance (we know this), knew it would not damn Corbyn and worse still, if people started to read it and discuss it (especially in the light of the McNicol/Oldknow Whatsapp revelations), they would understand that a great deal of responsibility for failings that took place lay at the door of Starmer's own friends.  Some of whom he's recently paid off using party funds.

Why would the press suddenly start promoting this aspect of the report, no one was ever going to read the report and no-one in the media was going to attack Starmer on this.  It's a stitch up alright, by the media, who are right-wingers who want Tories in power and a Labour Party that will consent to what they want, hence why they will always try an influence it.  What you are living through is a time when the Tories have had years to put the pieces together of their media machine.  Keith failings will be to continually ride on that scorpions back in a belief he can gain from it which there is much more evidence for than any internal conspiracy about him being a trojan horse.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 01:17:59 PM
Trenter, I'm simply reporting what the fellow actually said - which you entirely misrepresented.  I'm not inviting you to conjecture over his use of the word perhaps or the extremely well known and usual phrase makes it hard not to believe and whether their use means that he's engaging clever psyops to pull one over on everyone.  FWIW, your mentioning of it and then withdrawing your implication is also a device used by people spinning falsehoods.  You go down that insane and obvious, little road if you like, I won't even bother to trawl through everything you or anyone else has ever uttered to find instances.

I don't know why it's so imperative to you, piercing this windmill, but fill your bizarrely oriented boots and spur on your poor old nag.

As far as discussion of the report goes, I'm not arguing the press would start discussing any aspect that didn't suit their false narrative.  I'm suggesting that ordinary people in places like this would.  And they would.  If Corbyn hadn't been assassinated, don't you think we'd all be sat round, right now, discussing the allegation that Corbyn interfered in disciplinary cases and the fact that his interference was, in fact, to encourage those carrying them out to get on with it expeditiously and to press for greater penalties?

Keith is an absolute sell-out cunt, btw, trojan horse is far too polite.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 01:26:56 PM
I find it hard to admit that I got it wrong when I said it was a poor set of choices from the get go and that I didn't see us winning the next election.

But one of them was clearly far, far worse than the others and you were told. I have absolutely no respect for you, for what that's worth, while you continue denying you made a big mistake.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: NoSleep on November 02, 2020, 01:39:18 PM
I find it hard to admit that I got it wrong when I said it was a poor set of choices from the get go and that I didn't see us winning the next election.

And you picked the the obviously lying turd in the punchbowl, and a male at that (we were to vote a woman as the leader). Somebody who had been preparing to stand when he should have been 100% concentrating on campaigning during the general election (RLB actually apologised for not being up to speed on this account). It was the poorest of choices you made, indeed.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 01:44:58 PM
In fairness, a lot of people did.  His pitch was very cynical.  It's very frustrating and they should've seen it coming, nevertheless, the important thing now is that they realise what a dreadful cunt they've let in and start doing all they can to fix what they've helped to create.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 01:49:19 PM
Finn makes a big mistake a little bit later here in that he says the report implies that any dismissal or claims of exaggeration of AS are in themselves AS, which it specifically doesn't say, it says dismissing all claims of AS as exaggeration or politically motivated is in itself AS.

While that's true, our opponents are pointing to this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElvCirAXIAAV2aY?format=png)

I don't know if that is selective editing, or if it can be assumed to mean what it looks like it means.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: pigamus on November 02, 2020, 01:51:03 PM
What are the Socialist Campaign Group doing? Anything?
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Buelligan on November 02, 2020, 02:07:15 PM
All down Nando's, I think.

https://twitter.com/socialistcam?lang=en
https://www.john-mcdonnell.net/socialist-campaign-group-page/
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: lipsink on November 02, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
Tracy-Ann Oberman being a horrible bully again to anyone who disagrees with her about Corbyn:

https://twitter.com/RivkahBrown/status/1323261337791770624

The irony of this made me laugh:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekyo2PlWMAEtAVF?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 02:11:32 PM
Trenter, I'm simply reporting what the fellow actually said - which you entirely misrepresented.

Oh I see you are on one of these again.

No I didn't entirely misrepresent him, i took his implicated "he" as Corbyn not Starmer. It makes no difference to his main point and no difference to mine.  Saying "entirely misrepresented" is an exaggeration on a level we are seeing from people in the press, and perhaps if you want to have moral position on that you should consider how you conduct your own exaggerations for effect.

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I'm not inviting you to conjecture over his use of the word perhaps or the extremely well known and usual phrase makes it hard not to believe and whether their use means that he's engaging clever psyops to pull one over on everyone.

We'll ignore that fact that this isn't your forum and replies are not dependant on invitations from yourself and move on to the fact that, no again, you are wrong, in fact you might even say "misrepresenting" what I said as i clearly said:

I'm not saying Finn is unreliable or trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, these are devices of language that are employed intentionally, unintentionally or more often than not carelessly in the pursuit of a greater point (Bastani is great for the last one).

Sorry if that slipped you by.

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FWIW, your mentioning of it and then withdrawing your implication is also a device used by people spinning falsehoods.


No it isn't and i'm not withdrawing any implication.  I stated what I believe it was not and then was clearly implying that he is being careless in the pursuit of a greater point.

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You go down that insane and obvious, little road if you like, I won't even bother to trawl through everything you or anyone else has ever uttered to find instances.  I don't know why it's so imperative to you, piercing this windmill, but fill your bizarrely oriented boots and spur on your poor old nag.

Ok do what you please.  Critical discourse analysis is what has been used historically by leftwing academics to identify the misleading rhetoric of right-wingers, it was most famously used by Noam Chomsky, but I appreciate you feel you know better.  I've actually explained why this is important (windmill eh?) lots of time and i'm happy to do so again whenever you ask (i'll take your last attempt as rhetoric).

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As far as discussion of the report goes, I'm not arguing the press would start discussing any aspect that didn't suit their false narrative.  I'm suggesting that ordinary people in places like this would.  And they would. If Corbyn hadn't been assassinated, don't you think we'd all be sat round, right now, discussing the allegation that Corbyn interfered in disciplinary cases and the fact that his interference was, in fact, to encourage those carrying them out to get on with it expeditiously and to press for greater penalties?

So what you are saying is; Starmer suspended Corbyn because otherwise people on forums like this wouldn't have started talking about Keith being a sleeper cell MP that premeditatedly suspended Corbyn on most likely illegal unworkable charges rather than talking about how Corbyn interfered to get Ken Livingstone expelled more quickly.  No, personally I think that is silly, for Keith to think or you to think.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 02:20:39 PM
While that's true, our opponents are pointing to this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElvCirAXIAAV2aY?format=png)

I don't know if that is selective editing, or if it can be assumed to mean what it looks like it means.

Is that from the EHRC report? There is a lot of interpretation in that it does not specifically say any or all which is my point.  It doesn't really matter anyway because as the lawyer on Novara pointed out any definition of harassment needs to be testable in court and the EHRCs version isn't.  Just same way that (what sadly a lot of lefties were agreeing with and are now finding out it can cut both ways) racism is "decided" by the victim.

It isn't.  The Macpherson report says alleged racism should be investigated, despite people in power (in this case the police) or other perceiving there being no crime, if the victim perceives themselves to have been racially discriminated.  It does not say the victim gets to decide if it was actually racist or not.  Otherwise why both with the whole legal system.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 02, 2020, 02:27:15 PM
In some ways this is actually quite simple.

Forget about AS and lets just look at racism as a whole.

It just means someone that complains of racism should not be ignored and that saying "they are making it up" can be viewed as complicit in that racism.  There is no difference between this and what sexual assault victims have been fighting for over the last decade.

It has big problems as singular statement but with other laws supporting it - i.e. the right to defend oneself of vexatious claims.

Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 02, 2020, 02:38:16 PM
Is that from the EHRC report?

I think so. It's to do with the two people who they deemed had committed harrassment. The wording isn't as clear here, which is why they are using it.

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There is a lot of interpretation in that it does not specifically say any or all which is my point.  It doesn't really matter anyway because as the lawyer on Novara pointed out any definition of harassment needs to be testable in court and the EHRCs version isn't.  Just same way that (what sadly a lot of lefties were agreeing with and are now finding out it can cut both ways) racism is "decided" by the victim.

It isn't.  The Macpherson report says alleged racism should be investigated, despite people in power (in this case the police) or other perceiving there being no crime, if the victim perceives themselves to have been racially discriminated.  It does not say the victim gets to decide if it was actually racist or not.  Otherwise why both with the whole legal system.

Yes, I know. Finn's point was that at least in one part of the document, it says that suggesting that complaints of antisemitism are fake or smears is antisemitic. However, I agree that he should have clarified that that isn't the final conclusion of the report.
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: dissolute ocelot on November 02, 2020, 02:53:44 PM
There seems a lot of confusion in the EHRC report and elsewhere about what a complaint is. It could mean either a specific complaint to the party's complaints procedure (which of course should be investigated), or a general complaint in the media/in a speech/to a journalist that Corbyn is worse than Hitler (which can be judged and dismissed on different standards).
Title: Re: Labour Party Desolation v3: Abstainence Makes the Farce Grow Stronger
Post by: thugler on November 02, 2020, 02:55:24 PM
Blair didn't suspend (and let's face it, expel) Corbyn.

Also, at the time Corbyn and McDonnell didn't represent a long-lost dream of fairness and equality within the party. That adm