BEERS #2 - Beyond the Pale

[thugler]

What is 'the murkening' exactly? Is it more stuff being unfined? I've not noticed that making a huge difference taste wise personally, maybe a slightly different texture/mouthfeel

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/jun/18/murky-beer-cloudy-craft-ale

I found this. I remember the scene mid-way through the decade being about 'dank', 'haze', 'murk' IPAs that looked different shades of fruit juice, smelled slightly oniony.

New England is the most modern and approachable iteration of IPA," says Jones

Whereas I'd argue the reverse. It isn't radler, the combo is still of bitterness with the tropical fruit and some wilder qualities by virtue of the unfiltered smaller batch brewing. I don't know anyone who found beer through NEIPA but then I'm 34 not 24.

Session IPA must be the most approachable iteration as that's what's doing most supermarket and pub business.

Anyway, I believe removing filtration is most dramatic for lagers above all else, adding thickness and releasing fundamental vibrancy and subtlety.

[phes]

Don't have any problem with unfiltered beer. Quite the opposite. Just noticed over the last few years (and unfortunately I can't even think of the examples right now) that a few beers seemed to have changed characteristics to fall in line with the recent trends re grain bill and yeast. Dialing down the bitterness, dialing up the viscosity and sweetness. That's what I associate with that period when most beers became murky, moreso than filtration. I enjoy the balance in good IPAs between dry, bitter, sweet and boozy. That just doesn't seem to be a thing anymore. It's just how fruity can you make it and how well are you able to conceal the booze, because that boozy taste is fucking horrible lurking underneath an 8% NEIPA. I've had some terrific NEIPA/hazy pales up to about 5.5% but pretty much every DNEIPA I've tried has been rank. The less accessible beers they're talking about, presumably West coast style beers, seemed much better suited to embrace the booziness instead of it being a dirty little secret. I don't brew though so I don't know what I'm talking about

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You do drink though, which is a pretty decent qualification.

Whenever I've tried DIPAs (just standard ones, not NE or NZ or any other kind) they are so similar to me to the standard IPA or AIPA that all that's going on is the brewer is showing off being able to conceal the booze content. It is quite impressive, no doubt, but the price rise makes it a bit of a dead end. Why plough through an 8% beer that tastes like a 5% one when it's costing you so much more per round for no major difference.

Also, while we're at it, why not just make a tripel that's boozy, spicy, hoppy, yeasty and lovely sorry, hobby horse

[Ferris]

Yer standard west coast IPA really doesn't have much room to be anything more than "ooh this one is now even stronger and even more bitter". If you're mad into hops, some of them are technically impressive in terms of how well they capture the aroma and flavour of specific varieties, but I'm not a fan really. I find them oily, and they require very little skill to churn out. Ho hum.

NEIPAs are a bit smarter about from a brewing perspective - you can impart the aroma of hops without isomerizing the bitter oil in the hops themselves and produce a beer that is simultaneously hoppy and sweet. Phes - that is what you are describing below and you're bang on. It's a clever trick, but you can only push it so far. I like NEIPAs personally, but they look like the toilet leavings of an unwell horse visually speaking so I get why people aren't fans.

**ferris hot take alert**

-> Beer fining/clarifying does fuck all in my experience, and I doubt the majority of cicerones could reliably pick out the same beer (one fined, one not) in a blind taste test. It is about appearance, and punters expect a cloudy oily job when they order a beer in this style so that's what breweries are giving them. Nowt to do with flavour I reckon.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Beer fining/clarifying does fuck all in my experience,

I have a feeling the effect on keg pales might be less obvious due to the flavour profile and at times the overly ice cold servings.

There aren't too many beers which offer filtered and unfiltered equivalents of the exact same beer commercially but I'd be interested in you making the same claim about Pilsner Urquell and Pilsner Urquell Nefiltrovany (which i believe is just the unfiltered version of the same beer rather than a bespoke unfiltered lager piggybacking on the brand name) , pretty significant non-cosmetic differences there.

[Ferris]

I should add I have absolutely no basis for my assertion beyond my own home brewing adventures when I have/haven't bothered clarifying and not noticed the difference. I'd be really interested to test this new half baked theory on commercial beers - is the urquell the same beer but in clarified/unclarified versions? That'd be one to seek out, though I have 0 chance of finding either here.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yep, I believe so.

I believe I could blind taste an unfiltered lager 7/10 times over a filtered one. Franconia would be tricky as their inconsistent and occasionally unusual brewing methods make everything seems homespun and 'unfiltered' but even with that I'd happily back myself.

[phes]

Are vegan beer finings as affordable as the old non-vegan finings? Presumably current style trends and the massive growth in demand for vegetarian/vegan products must be a happy coincidence

[Ferris]

No idea to be honest, isinglass and gelatin are both non-vegan. I'm actually not sure what the vegan alternatives are - Irish moss is a load of shit so doubt that's being used by any commercial breweries.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Got a load of Christmassy beers to drink, bet they're fucking rank, can't wait

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Nice to be back enjoying some cask ale after lockdown.

Some trad stuff: Settle Mainline, Theakston, Thwaites Original, some more modern, Ainsty Assassin Oatmeal Stout, Jaipur (which wasn't bad though given it was a Thornbridge place it should be really).

[phes]

Night out in York?

[thugler]

No idea to be honest, isinglass and gelatin are both non-vegan. I'm actually not sure what the vegan alternatives are - Irish moss is a load of shit so doubt that's being used by any commercial breweries.

There must be as I've had plenty of clear beer that is certified vegan.

This murk thing seems to me to be more about the style of beer than the actual murkiness of the stuff. I'm not overly fussed about it being clear or not taste wise, I suspect I could taste a slight difference, but not massively. The whole IPA dominance does get on my tits in general, whichever IPA variant happens to be most popular at the moment.

[Ferris]

Night out in York?

Fate worse than death.

[JaDanketies]

They can use special mechanical methods to replace isinglass. Guinness do it.

[Ferris]

I bet they do the dirty old etc etc

[poo]

obviously been done before, but can someone confirm that this Beer52 thing is total anus, so that I don't have to think anymore about sending off for the "free" intro case.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

obviously been done before, but can someone confirm that this Beer52 thing is total anus, so that I don't have to think anymore about sending off for the "free" intro case.

From what I've heard from friends and others it's better than Flavourly but worse than most of the rest, and you have to remember to cancel the subscription which I believe is phone only.

Given the hassle you may as well buy a box fucked full of ace beer from somewhere else rather than get lured in by their freebie promises. But that's only my take.

[poo]

Aye.


Recommend me a box of beer then - maybe something Belgian/mixed. Will buy.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I'd head to http://speciaalbierpakket.nl and just fill the cart up with 20-30 bottles that look good. They have been super reliable for me and I think worked out fine for others here, even with shipping still works out more affordable than buying from a UK based online beer shop.

If you just want a quick gift pack then:

https://www.lesbieresbelges.be/en/catalog/packs/22-0-0-0-1.aspx
https://www.beerwulf.com/en-gb/c/mixedbeercases
https://store.belgianshop.com/74-tasting-packs
https://www.latelierdesbieres.fr/15-coffrets-bouteilles-sp%C3%A9ciales

[poo]

Thanks. Ordered a Trappist Pack.

[JaDanketies]

I got some free Beer 52 cases if you want a link. PM for deets.

I got a Beer 52 advent calendar today too. Today's was Pineapple Express. Was very palatable.

The link to Beerwulf seems more expensive per-beer than Beer52 and they're all 330mls. I guess judging by your other links you're a fan of the Belgian booze but none of the available cases tickle my fancy.

I was thinking of just popping on Wowcher and getting a random case.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I got some free Beer 52 cases if you want a link. PM for deets.

I got a Beer 52 advent calendar today too. Today's was Pineapple Express. Was very palatable.

The link to Beerwulf seems more expensive per-beer than Beer52 and they're all 330mls. I guess judging by your other links you're a fan of the Belgian booze but none of the available cases tickle my fancy.

I was thinking of just popping on Wowcher and getting a random case.

It was because poo asked for some with Belgian options.

I don't buy preset packs because of control freakery and as I've got plenty of time to browse.

[JaDanketies]

If anyone's interested I got this bargain. For me.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Quite disconcerting that the brewery C84 have nearly no profile let alone ratings on Untappd. Down from £33? Where?

[JaDanketies]

Quite disconcerting that the brewery C84 have nearly no profile let alone ratings on Untappd. Down from £33? Where?

Welcome to Wowcher!

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Welcome to Wowcher!

Well precisely. You seemed excited though?

[poo]

Gone and bought an Orval chalice too fuckit

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Ok, so I've finally finished what will probably be the last Hier-Gibts-Bier.de shipment for me. With Brexit due to fuck international shipping to the UK up logistically and commercially, it will certainly put off companies offering UK shipping and in turn their costs will put off buyers. Wait and see, but I'm not expecting good things. Not to mention the dive in £ sterling in January.

However, if anyone wants to get some amazing Franconian beers in from smaller breweries, there's enough time to place your order in the next few days and receive it well before Christmas.

My last shipment had some bocks, marzens and winter beers in, while trying to pick up one or two others I hadn't got around to trying. Anyway, here is the final verdict:

Pale Kellerbier/Zwickl biers

Mahrs aU - 9.5/10                        (Did I mention how this beer is close to being the best? Wonderous unfiltered lager)
Schubel Nordeck Trunk - 9/10      (Spicy with a citrusy hop)
Aufsesser Zwickl - 9/10                (Thick, unfiltered, tangy, farmhousey and light as air)
Ur Frauendorfer Naturturb-8.5/10 (Similar to Mahrs aU. Unfiltered, golden, aley toffee notes faintly in there, knock back drinkable)
Hutten Zwickl - 8/10                     (Lighter than their Zoigl but still comparatively hefty)
Huppendorfer Zwickel - 8/10        (On the yeasty, spicey, grainy side. Very mild hops but fresh and indulgently wonderful)
Goller Kellerbier - 8/10                  (An archetype of the style - cloudy, spicy, subtle hops and mildly agricultural notes)
St Georgen Kellerbier - 8/10         (I preferred this in bottles to the slightly too mellow tap serving. Brings out the finish a bit more)
Adler Stopflder Zwickl - 7.5/10      (Knocks most session IPA out of the park for complexity, texture and drinkability. An eye opener)
Nikl Lagerbier Zwickl - 7.5/10        (Pale, super-refreshing with a slight crispness and citric element)
Nothaft Zwickl - 7.5/10                  (Less bitter, highly drinkable, best keller-fresh to eke out every inch of flavour)
Mainseidla Keller - 7.5/10              (Pale and quite clear, minerality and green bitterness competing with gorgeous unfiltered tang)
Reh Zwickl - 7/10                           (Similar to Nikl and Schubel, bitter. Enjoyable but less of a standout example)
Bamberger Keller - 7/10                (A tad sweet, a more trad 'expected' kellerbier with less of the homespun charm of the above)

Coppery Vollbier (inc. Kellerbiers/Landbiers)

Schubel 'a Frankisch' - 9/10              (One bottle was a dud, but the fresh one was pretty much the Ur-example of this style. Coppery, harmonious, gorgeous)
Simon Spezial - 8.5/10                      (Amber, Marzen-esque lager which starts nice then seems to get even nicer)
Honicka Heiner's Original - 8/10        (Floral bitterness with frothy soft but full textured ambery lager, a surprise find)
Fassla Zwergla - 8/10                       (Strong yet well-hopped brown landbier. Dry malty nutty backtaste. More Landbier than Munich Dunkel)
Adler Altfrankisches Lager - 8/10      (Chestnut colour, full body, punchy bright hops, slightly floral, a strong, typical example of the region)
Reckendorfer Kellerbier - 7.5/0         (Brownish, easy drinking coppery malty lager)
Hetzelsdorfer Vollbier - 7.5/10          (Subtly creeps up on you. Not overly complex but stop searching and focus on the drinkability)
Meister Vollbier - 7.5/10                    (Soft in the mouth but bitter tingly hops and roast malt competing in aftertaste)
Buchenbacher Beck'n'bier - 7/10      (Low % for the style, but this is liquid pretzel. Roast malt, bready, tingly hops, good balance)
Schubel Drachenseidla - 7/10          (Despite the fancy name, a routine decent brown keller, tasty, fairly bitter)
Frauendorfer Landbier - 7/10           (A lynchpin of the style rather than an outstanding copper-brown kellerbier)
Hallerndorfer Kellerbier - 7/10          (More coppery coloured than you'd expect. Again roast malt, sweetness, tingly finish)
Stockl Ahorntaler Landbier - 7/10     (Brown, malty yet still refreshing. Not overly sweet. Lager mirror image of an English bitter. Maybe missing the balance and complexity of some others.)

Dunkels/Brown kellerbier

Weiherer Zwickerla Dunkel - 9.5/10    (Almost overwhelmingly delicious. Reddish, full, thick, swirling, intoxicating and light as air)
Weissenohe Kloster Sud - 9/10          (Brown Vienna lager with much more complexity and indulgence that you'd expect)
Puttner Basalter Dunkel - 8.5/10        (Exemplary. Black, thick, rich, decently hopped and perfectly balanced. Very nice)
Honicka Wonnesud - 8.5/10               (Every delicious drop of this smooth, rich, joyful Munich Dunkel is worth savouring.)
Weiherer Urstoffla - 8.5/10                (Munich Dunkel. Bready, malty, ever so slightly odd brown rather than dark beer. Standout)
Wagner Dunkel - 8.5/10                    (A touch lighter shade. Stronger and more complex than some, rich and rewarding)
Langbrau Burggraf Dunkel - 8/10      (Munich Dunkel, on the roasty end of things. Dry in the mouth but smooth finish and thick)
Bauernbier Dunkel - 8/10                   (Forgot my notes but this one was a terrific Munich dunkel)
Aufsesser Dunkel - 8/10                    (Only a shade darker than the brilliant Zwickel and nearly as good. Just a tone darker)
Ott Obaladara - 8/10                         (Smooth, sweet with a building bitterness. Indulgent)
Manns Brau - 8/10                             (Dark brown rather than black, big and malty, with hops trying to give chase, like Schwarzbier)
Bamberger Schwarzla - 8/10             (A straight up Schwarzbier, hoppy, black as night, roasty but slight coconut/oystery element)
Sonne Zunft Trunk - 7.5/10               (Unusual one. Brown keller, hoppy and malty at first but really mellows out, though light considering the strength)
Staffelberg Wienerla - 7.5/10            (Vienna lager, strongish, thick texture but backed up with distinct floral bitterness and drying finish)
Stelzer Ritter Trunk - 7.5/10               (Tough to miss out on an 8. This is real cro-magnon beer, roast malt, hearty, gothic)
Meinel Dunkel - 7.5/10                       (Low % dunkel. Successful idea. Toned down but highly drinkable)
Lindenharter Landbier - 7.5/10          (Make peace with the dark brown colour, and it is rich, toasty and full flavoured )
Bamberger Braunbier - 7.5/10           (Delicious Dunk/Keller hybrid. Malty but lively hops. The better end of both worlds)
Leupser Dunkel - 7/10                       (Dry wholemealy dunkel that has a very distinct character. Well brewed.
Gunther Bernstein - 5/10                   (The malt doesn't sit quite right, unfortunately. Not in the same league)

Weissbier

Weiherer Weizenbock - 9.5/10         (An near out of this world light brown weizenbock. Rich, intoxicating and unparalleled)
Kuchlbauer Turmweisse - 9/10         (A genuine competitor for Schneider Original and Sternweisse for light brown wheatbeer flavour)
Kapuziner Weissbier- 8.5/10            (One of the bigger names in this obscure list, but among the best wheatbeers out there.)
Gutmann Dunkles Weisen - 8.5/10   (Bonafide classic. Among the best big-brew dark wheatbeers. So well balanced, deceptively drinkable.)
Nothelfer Bioweisse - 8/10               (A trad attempt at Bavarian wheatbeer that nails it. So fresh and worthy of high praise)
Kapuziner Kellermarzen  - 7/10        (Interesting attempt to blend kellerbier and wheatbeer. Tough balance to strike but it works)
Schroll Nankendorfer Weisse- 6/10  (Lost its head and went flat, flavour was ok)

Zoiglbiers

Stelzer Fattigau Zoigl - 8.5/10          (Great label. Vienna-style lager. Full flavour, caramel malt, well balanced bitter finish. Exemplary)
Kemnath Zoigl - 8.5/10                     (Pale, bitter balance is impressive, unfiltered, unpasteurised, pure freshness)
Hutten Zoigl - 8/10                           (A stand-out brown beer that shows so much skill. Bursting with flavour yet moreishly drinkable )
Wurth Zoigl Hell - 8/10                     (Really unusual. Earthy, leathery, fruity, faint smoke, then trad tangy, spicy aftertaste. Weird and good)
Rawetzter Zoigl - 8/10                     (Pale keller, amber, thick, bitter at the front then thick gentle floral aftertaste, great stuff)
Wurth Zoigl Dunkel - 7.5/10            (Weird one. Dunkel Zoigl. Malty yet thick and light. Unlike any beer I've had)   
Scherdel Zoigl - 7.5/10                    (Similar to a pale kellerbier but a little more spicy and thick. Nice but not a standout)
(Paul) Puttner Zoigl - 7.5/10            (Coppery kellerbier similar to the vollbiers above. Thick, sweet, hoppy and reddish brown
Monschof Zoigl - 7.5/10                   (The most commercial beer with 'Zoigl' on it. Still pretty good but a more typical kellerbier experience)

Marzen

Weiherer Keller-Marzen - 8/10       (Thicker than some ales, hoppy, unfiltered, vibrant, fresh, spicy, slightly herbal. Magnificent)
Monschof Historic Marzen - 8/10    (So light considering strength and sweetness, floaty, thick, fresh, pleasant hoppy landing and honeyed aftertaste)
Aufsesser Marzen - 7/10                (Slightly lower strength cloudy amber Marzen. Pleasant without standing out.)
Kemnath Marzen - 7/10                 (Strong, enjoyably amber sweet and yet very well hopped. Interesting effort)
Meinel Kellermarzen - 7/10            (Faintly off-the-rack recipe other than the end bitterness which slightly obstructs rather than complimenting the flavour)
Hutten Fichtelgold - 7/10               (Not my absolute favourite of theirs but still pretty good. Sweet yet also bright and hoppy)

Bock

Schubel Kellerbock - 9/10             (Frankly amazing. Apricot, amber, bready, spicy thick. Breaks the mould for the style.)
Aufsesser Bock Dunkel - 9/10       (Bloody good. Rush of rich fruit, spice, nut and chocolate before roasted dryness comes in)
Nankendorfer Bockbier - 8.5/10    (Chocolate fruit and nut bock flavours that are well balanced with dryness and tingly hops)
Ott Bockbier - 8/10                       (Unusual. Rich, amber, woody, chestnutty creation unlike traditional bocks. Pretty good)
Mainseidla Bock - 7.5/10              (Quite amber, not overly dark. Dry fruit and leatheryness is familiar for the style. Pleasant.)

Weird/Atypical Ones

Leikem Steinbier - 8.5/10                       (An absolute one off - thick, strong light yet...faintly charred and elemental. Has to be tried)
Spezial Rauchbier - 8.5/10                     (May as well put it out there. This is better than Schlenkerla Marzen.)
Veldensteiner Rotbier - 8.5/10               (A style some pretend never existed historically. Whatever it is, it's brilliant. Reddish, rich, sweet, still lagery)
Langbrau Super Ale - 8/10                     (Weird but good. Unfiltered with hints of belgian blonde and kellerbier. It's an ale! Wheat in here too.)
Nikl Michala - 8/10                                  (Highly unusual amber sweet kellerbier with some complexity like a Belgian quad but in a medium % lager. Balanced enough to work well)
Kaiser Heinrich Urstoff - 8/10                 (Deceptive bready Dortmunder style lager that just gets gradually better with every gulp)
Hubner Vollbier  - 7.5/10                        (Smoked malt provides a surprise background flavour to this pale lager, and it works)
Frauendorfer Rauchbier - 7.5/10            (Smoke is not at the forefront, but it still props up the lager nicely)
Krug Brau Urstoff - 7.0/10                      (One of the less remarkable beers of this selection, but still enjoyable pleasant pale lager)
Leikem Wintertraum - 6.5/10                 (Partly successful but slightly gloopy pale lager, not what I expected for a winter beer)
Langbrau Maibock - 6.5/10                    (Slight failure to launch, as the head disappeared leaving behind an appley-grassy  palebock)
Wagner Ungespundetes Lager - 6.5/10 (Malty, warm gold colour, soft in the mouth, more like an Export than a keller or zwickle. Pleasant but not a stand out at all)
Langbrau Festbier - 6/10                       (Another case of great label design, average brew with this brewery. Head vanished, gloopy, piney hops)
Glenk Walkentrunk - 5/10                      (Disastrous. Something was wrong with the bottle. The head evaporated on impact with the glass.)