It's Prog Night on BBC4

[NoSleep]

...and it looks like it's going to be a bunch of the same old cliches rolled out again. You know... how it was all about the pomp and showiness, and how punk came along a changed that all...

The first programme is at least just clips of some bands, like 'em or hate 'em. But the documentary afterward looks as if it's going to make me want to kill something:

Prog Rock Britannia is a comprehensive, feature-length documentary about progressive music and the generation of bands that made it - from the international success stories of Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson and Jethro Tull, to the trials and tribulations of the lesser-known bands such as Caravan and Egg.

The film is structured in three parts, charting the birth, rise and decline of a movement famed for complex musical structures, weird time signatures, technical virtuosity and strange – quintessentially English – literary influences.

It looks at the psychedelic pop scene that gave birth to progressive rock in the late Sixties, the golden age of progressive music in the early Seventies – complete with drum solos and gatefold record sleeves – and the over-ambition, commercialisation and eventual fall from grace of this rarefied musical experiment at the hands of punk in 1977.

The documentary is a provocative, humorous but affectionate re-appraisal of a music that was the value system of an all-too-brief period in British popular music.

Contributors include Robert Wyatt, Mike Oldfield, Pete Sinfield, Rick Wakeman, Phil Collins, Arthur Brown, Carl Palmer and Ian Anderson.

I've had issues about the "Britannia" series before now - notably the Soul series, but also the Jazz one - they tend not be all-embracing and can even be partisan on occasions - not based enough on independent research I would imagine.

Will have to watch, all the same.

[The Mumbler]

Ridiculously, Mark Lawson's interviewing Phil Collins on Sunday night as part of this season.

[NoSleep]

I hazard that Zappa won't get a mention (he's not a Brit, natch) essential as he is to any history of Prog. And the talk of "decline" means they will not be following the fortunes of, for example, the Rock In Opposition bands (mainly European). Nor will there be a connection made to the more recent Post-Rock developments, which is really Prog under a new name.

At least Robert Wyatt, Caravan & Egg register...sigh. Why does TV revel in these tourist's guides? Stupid question, really.

[Gradual Decline]

Well that was a let down. It could quite easily have been a three parter. Marillion, The Cardiacs, Radiohead even.

Ah, bollocks to it...

[the hum]

The documentary was an enjoyable watch, but as usual it was the same ancient farts being interviewed and the established "prog died in '76" line.  Not a mention of Marillion, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Ozric Tentacles, or any one of the vast swathe of bands that could be considered prog that have formed in the past couple of decades.

[Little Hoover]

Well that was ok I thought, but yeah it does pretty much ignore the fact that plenty of bands carry on the spirit of prog, even if  stylistically they might be quite different.

[NoSleep]

The only surprise for me was Mont Campbell volunteering his opinions. Together with Robert Wyatt he managed to hit the nail on the head more times than most of the others included.

There was a seriously biased and narrow outlook narrowing it down to the UK. No mention of Zappa or The Beach Boys important early work. No mention of the tremendous work from European bands and they had to admit it was only Britain that the music die due to punk, but merely didn't have an audience there. Many UK bands survived because of the more open-minded attitudes abroad. Some even started during that period.

Another fucking tourist's guide to bugger all.

[Gradual Decline]

...no mention of Henry Cow keeping it real in Europe. As usual.

[NoSleep]

Well that was ok I thought, but yeah it does pretty much ignore the fact that plenty of bands carry on the spirit of prog, even if  stylistically they might be quite different.

It should never have been approached as a "genre". "Progressive", like the word "Independent", defines an attitude, not specific to any particular style.

[NoSleep]

...no mention of Henry Cow keeping it real in Europe. As usual.

Despite Robert Wyatt touring with them as a vocalist. No mention of anything non-British, like RIO et al.

[Lfbarfe]

These days, I find that when I watch documentaries because a subject interests me, I usually know more than the documentary tells me or find fault with the methodology. Have I become so much more knowledgable and critical, or has documentary-making just become an extension of Wikipedia? As for prog dying in 1976, that's what it says in The Received Wisdom History of Rock. Part 2 comes free with part 1 and a leather binder.

[SavageHedgehog]

Well that was ok I thought, but yeah it does pretty much ignore the fact that plenty of bands carry on the spirit of prog, even if  stylistically they might be quite different.

I can see what you mean, but wouldn't that have been the most cliched/unimaginative/cringeworthy ending ever. "But today el spirit de prog is carried on by Radiohead!!!"

Anyway, I quite enjoyed it and was rather moved by the bloke out of Procol Harum being visibly upset by the band breaking up.

Missed the first half hour or so. Were The Moody Blues mentioned? They should have been.

[trotsky assortment]

Well that was a let down. It could quite easily have been a three parter. Marillion, The Cardiacs

There's an entire story to tell regarding the early 80s movement.  I love most of those bands, but they're only ever going to be a footnote in the music history books (Marillion aside...and they've spent the last 20 years trying to deny any involvement with prog).

[the hum]

I can see what you mean, but wouldn't that have been the most cliched/unimaginative/cringeworthy ending ever. "But today el spirit de prog is carried on by Radiohead!!!"

Indeed, but the casual viewer (ok there probably wasn't such a thing watching it) would've been left with the impression that there isn't a single prog-related act still in existance, when in fact there are probably more now than there were at any point in its supposed 70s heyday - albeit helped by the definition of the genre being widened a bit.

[NoSleep]

...The Received Wisdom History of Rock. Part 2 comes free with part 1 and a leather binder.

That was too good not to use on another forum in answer to someone who believed the "and then punk came along" line. Your cheque's in the post.

[Lfbarfe]

Share the wealth.

[Don_Preston]

Bit of a shame they showed post-Wyatt Soft Machine footage on the performance episode, especially since they showed footage in the documentary of the group with him, plus some tasty footage of Kevin Ayers pulling faces during a Rattledge solo when was around.

[NoSleep]

Something that gives lie to the "punk was all about blowing away that prog shit" is a glance at the top selling albums in the UK for '76:

1 Abba - Greatest Hits
2 Beach Boys - 20 Golden Greats
3 Demis Roussos - Forever And Ever
4 Rod Stewart - A Night On The Town
5 Glen Campbell - 20 Golden Greats
6 Eagles - Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975
7 Slim Whitman - Very Best Of Slim Whitman
8 Queen - Night At The Opera
9 Bob Dylan - Desire
10 Wings - Wings At The Speed Of Sound

...unless you count Demis' pre-MOR stint with Aphrodite's Child.
That top ten would have had proggers reaching for their guns as much as it would punks.

Another band that started work through "Year Zero" was National Health, whose first album came out in 1977, followed by another in '78 (and another in '82). And what a damn fine band they were too.
Posted on: 04 January 2009, 15:43:53Likewise, the Art Bears' first album came out in '78, followed by another in '79 and then the mighty "World As It Is Today" in '81.

[The Mumbler]

The only place that punk really replaced prog was on John Peel's radio show, which almost none of these pundits ever listened to, I would imagine. The best-selling albums list for 1977 has many of the same names as in that '76 list. Singles chart was more dominated by disco than new wave (and in any case, the Pistols and The Stranglers were the only ones who raced into the top 10 to any great extent). Those two groups were the only ones who had top ten albums regularly. Look at the music press of the time, and although punk was covered pretty faithfully by the NME, the likes of Thin Lizzy were more likely to head readers' polls than The Damned.

[NoSleep]

The only place that punk really replaced prog was on John Peel's radio show, which almost none of these pundits ever listened to, I would imagine.

Nonetheless, a quick glance down the list of Peel Sessions for '77 shows quite a mixed bag, including some great Prog acts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/johnpeel/sessions/1970s/1977/

It's only by '79 that the Punk/New Wave almost totally dominates at least the Rock acts (still plenty of Reggae & Folk present), although Prog has truly disappeared in '78.

[sirhenry]

I couldn't face watching the programme as I suspected it would be piss-weak, but I doubt that Gentle Giant, another great band from the era (1970 - 1980), were on it. They were so complex musically that their onetime stated aim was to "expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of becoming very unpopular". And in that they were very successful.

A compilation album was called Pretentious - the liner notes explain why:
"They've always been one of the bands to cop flak from rock pundits who reckon Chuck Berry [or more likely punk] said it all, and so on an American tour they took the key put-down word of that school of criticism and spelt it out in huge neon letters above the stage while they played their set: 'PRETENTIOUS'."

I'll be playing a couple of their tracks later tonight on t'radio.

[The Mumbler]

Nonetheless, a quick glance down the list of Peel Sessions for '77 shows quite a mixed bag, including some great Prog acts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/johnpeel/sessions/1970s/1977/

It's only by '79 that the Punk/New Wave almost totally dominates at least the Rock acts (still plenty of Reggae & Folk present), although Prog has truly disappeared in '78.

Peel's programme found room to play the whole of Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of Life (nearly 100 minutes) one night in late 76. His church was always broad.

Alan Freeman had been Prog champion at Radio 1 till his departure for Capital in 78. Did Friday Rock Show house Prog sessions when that began? That was in 79.

[The Mumbler]

Something that gives lie to the "punk was all about blowing away that prog shit" is a glance at the top selling albums in the UK for '76:

1 Abba - Greatest Hits

Given how eyebrows are raised for the speed at which an artist is garlanded with a Greatest Hits set, worth noting how that one arrived when Abba had had five hits in the UK. Six including their next single, Fernando.

[NoSleep]

Peel's programme found room to play the whole of Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of Life (nearly 100 minutes) one night in late 76. His church was always broad.

Alan Freeman had been Prog champion at Radio 1 till his departure for Capital in 78. Did Friday Rock Show house Prog sessions when that began? That was in 79.

There's a strong Fusion aspect to Songs in the Key of Life and in the wake of bands like Mahavishnu Orchestra & Return To Forever I feel that many prog bands had their fire stolen from them even before '76 arrived. I know I was keener to hear these bands than anything from bands like Yes or Genesis, although I continued to enjoy the jazzier prog like Hatfield & The North and National Health.

I remember when Mahavishnu Orchestra first started gigging in the States and bands like Soft machine, King Crimson & Yes were raving about them in interviews in the UK music press. In fact Yes introduced them to the UK at Crystal Palace Bowl. I went along to see Mahavishnu specifically, already being a fan of McLaughlin via his work with Miles Davis & his first solo album. When Yes arrived onstage later, the first thing Jon Anderson said to the crowd was "Weren't Mahavishnu amazing?".

You can hear the fusion influence in the music found on the Fripp/Bruford/Muir/Cross/Wetton trilogy of albums. Some tracks would have fitted quite nicely on a Miles album, and you have to ask if Fripp's decision to include a violinist in the line-up was influenced by Mahavishnu? edit: And after retiring the band in '74, his later return to ensemble playing on Exposure ('79) included Mahavishnu drummer Michael Walden.

Phil Collins even formed a Fusion band - Brand X - as a side project to Genesis.

[Lfbarfe]

I thought Phil just joined Brand X, because he was mates with Robin Lumley, Percy Jones and John Goodsall, whose band it really was. Superb, superb band, whatever their genesis (ho ho).

[rudi]

Something that gives lie to the "punk was all about blowing away that prog shit" is a glance at the top selling albums in the UK for '76

Mmmyeah, but that's because these things a) take time and b) have an effect that isn't necessarily read in the "Top" Anything charts.

Punk was an essentially singles-based form at the time anyway. Compare with the equally important house music explosion, first felt in this country in '86

Top Albums:

1
   Madonna    True Blue
2
   Dire Straits    Brothers In Arms
3
   Various artists (EMI/Virgin)    Now, That's What I Call Music 8
4
   Paul Simon    Graceland
5
   Whitney Houston    Whitney Houston
6
   Various artist (Virgin/EMI)    Now, That's What I Call Music 7
7
   A-Ha    Hunting High And Low
8
   Queen    A Kind Of Magic
9
   Eurythmics    Revenge
10
   Five Star    Silk And Steel

or 1987

1
   Michael Jackson    Bad
2
   U2    The Joshua Tree
3
   Whitney Houston    Whitney
4
   Various artists (EMI/Virgin/Polygram)    Now That's What I Call Music 10
5
   Fleetwood Mac    Tango In The Night
6
   Various artists (CBS/WEA)    Hits 6
7
   Rick Astley    Whenever You Need Somebody
8
   T'Pau    Bridge Of Spies
9
   Original Cast    The Phantom Of The Opera
10
   Level 42    Running In The Family

Yet by '86 we'd already had "On and On", "Can U Feelt It?", "No UFOs" etc and then saw "Acid Trax", "Nude Photo" and "No Way Back" and all that Trax stuff everywhere. By '87 we'd even had "Jack Your Body" and "Pump Up The Volume" at no 1 in this country!

87:

1
   Michael Jackson    Bad
2
   U2    The Joshua Tree
3
   Whitney Houston    Whitney
4
   Various artists (EMI/Virgin/Polygram)    Now That's What I Call Music 10
5
   Fleetwood Mac    Tango In The Night
6
   Various artists (CBS/WEA)    Hits 6
7
   Rick Astley    Whenever You Need Somebody
8
   T'Pau    Bridge Of Spies
9
   Original Cast    The Phantom Of The Opera
10
   Level 42    Running In The Family

Album charts prove nowt, surely?

1988 is renowned as "The Second Summer of Love" with front page news, raves already so big legislation is being drafted to curb them and so on, yet the chart?

1
   Kylie Minogue    Kylie
2
   Cliff Richard    Private Collection
3
   Michael Jackson    Bad
4
   Bros    Push
5
   Various artists (EMI/Virgin/Polygram)    Now That's What I Call Music 13
6
   Wet Wet Wet    Popped In Souled Out
7
   Fleetwood Mac    Tango In The Night
8
   U2    Rattle And Hum
9
   Tracy Chapman    Tracy Chapman
10
   Terence Trent D'Arby    Introducing The Hardline According To...

The charts carry on in their own sweet way, whatever the nature of the "prevailing hipster" music. Punk was, if concerned about blowing away anything, the 'enemy' of prog for all that it embodied. The facile nature of the huge sellers occupied a different area altogether both in 76 and 86. Punks didn't care that their folks were buying Demis Roussos LPs, but they may have felt the need to kick against the ex-hippies listening to Yes in the venues/clubs they came into contact with. The nuts and bolts of house music came up against soul saviours, Fridge-dwelling shufflers, Wag wankers and Northern Soul die-hards whose albums also didn't appear in the Top 25 Albums Chart. The clubs churning out T'pau occupied not so much a different league as a completely different sport.

Your post raises an interesting point though: could you argue that punk got (ugh!) young people buying recorded music again?

[NoSleep]

Mmmyeah, but that's because these things a) take time and b) have an effect that isn't necessarily read in the "Top" Anything charts.

Which is precisely why it's facile to say "punk blew prog away" as if overnight.

[SavageHedgehog]

Wow, I'm amazed Hunting High and Low sold better here than A Kind of Magic or even Revenge for that matter. And Popped In Souled Out did better than Rattle & Hum, which is quite right.

[The Mumbler]

Wow, I'm amazed Hunting High and Low sold better here than A Kind of Magic or even Revenge for that matter. And Popped In Souled Out did better than Rattle & Hum, which is quite right.

In both cases, that's partly because they had longer to achieve their sales in their respective calendar years. A-ha's debut came out in March 86, before A Kind of Magic and three months before Revenge. (Also, A-ha were far more consistent singles artists that year than either Queen or Eurythmics, which helped keep their album selling.) Meanwhile, Popped In Souled Out (released in autumn 87) therefore had the whole of 88 to outdo Rattle and Hum, which only came out 10 weeks before the end of the year.

[SavageHedgehog]

Aww. That was nice while it lasted.