Twin Peaks Season 3...

[QDRPHNC]

Actually, I could see The Return souring someone on the whole thing.

The Bob ball punch scene could have pushed me over the edge if it wasn't surrounded by so much other quality stuff.

[chveik]

Actually, I could see The Return souring someone on the whole thing.

it did for me, a bit. but it's hyperbolic praise about it that annoyed me the most.

[The Mollusk]

What does he think of FWWM?

Fuck knows, I've not had the guts to ever speak to him about it since.

The Bob ball punch scene could have pushed me over the edge if it wasn't surrounded by so much other quality stuff.

Yeah that was a wild ride. It takes confidence to use that sort of zany premise and CGI to convey something horrific and weird (Takashi Miike does it well, which was something I touched on in the thread I started), but honestly for me it really paid off. I certainly remember laughing a lot but I was really into it as well. I could so easily have hated it, though, but that just makes me respect it even more.

[El Unicornio, mang]

This has reminded me that I've had the 3.5 hour fan edit cut of FWWM sitting on my hard drive for about a year, might watch tonight.

[Thomas]

The Bob ball punch scene could have pushed me over the edge if it wasn't surrounded by so much other quality stuff.

That's the only moment that still bothers me when I look back at series three, amidst all the beguiling, occasionally frustrating, and grimly enchanting elements that make The Return a nightmare success.

Like, I getttt that Lynch is mauling our expectations inside-out, slaughtering the very concept of nostalgia on the altar of television, and possibly parodying the superhero trend - but mate. Cockney with a gardening glove vs. spiritual embodiment of abuse and malice. Doesn't do it for me.

Nevertheless, those last two episodes are magnificent, even with Bob-ball in there. Cooper trapped in a wrong reality (and possibly a wrong self) after trying to do a noble thing and change the past; the ultimate condemnation of nostalgic revisitation. With that in mind, I should not wish for the Bob-ball scene to be different.

[The Mollusk]

What about if Bob-ball was baby Hitler instead?

[Thomas]

Depends - does it have the moustache?

[The Mollusk]

Nah it bears no resemblance at all and you just have to take their word for it.

[jamiefairlie]

I'd have preferred for the final victory over Bob to have been more lingered over, a bit the Leland in the cell scene, a snarling smug Bob confident of victory but this time he's outsmarted. I wanted to see shock at his defeat, not just him bouncing around like a pinball.

I had 25 years to anticipate that bastard getting his and I wanted him to suffer!

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

This strikes me as an odd reaction. If you liked Twin Peaks enough to care that much, I don't see how you couldn't at least be partly beguiled by the suffusing weirdness that has always been a Lynch trademark. Admittedly I too was unconvinced by the first couple of episodes, but as became apparent that it was deliberately turning our expectations inside out, it became more and more satisfying. What does he think of FWWM?

There's always been two major camps of Twin Peaks obsessives, people who like the weird retro soap opera part of the original TV run and people who are more inclined towards David Lynch's brand of incomprehensible surrealism. The original show, even including FWWM, is very different from, say, Mulholland Drive or Inland Empire.

As I recall, while S3 was airing a large portion or even majority of the online fandom's reaction was very negative. (Because they are fools.)

[chveik]

There's always been two major camps of Twin Peaks obsessives, people who like the weird retro soap opera part of the original TV run and people who are more inclined towards David Lynch's brand of incomprehensible surrealism. The original show, even including FWWM, is very different from, say, Mulholland Drive or Inland Empire.

As I recall, while S3 was airing a large portion or even majority of the online fandom's reaction was very negative. (Because they are fools.)

it's just an another type of fandom. and you're being a revisionist, I remember that they were dismissing completely any rational critique of the show

[The Mollusk]

Ah yeah speaking of which, I should add that part of my friend's resentment for S3 was that a lot of people online basically dismissed/put him down for "not getting it". That would annoy the shit out of me, too.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

it's just an another type of fandom. and you're being a revisionist, I remember that they were dismissing completely any rational critique of the show

Sure, but a different fandom, which is my point. And no, I'm not being revisionist in the least. The reaction on CaB is not representative of the reaction at large among the type of Twin Peaks superfans I'm talking about.

[chveik]

Sure, but a different fandom, which is my point. And no, I'm not being revisionist in the least. The reaction on CaB is not representative of the reaction at large among the type of Twin Peaks superfans I'm talking about.

well I followed the reactions on reddit at the time (I was a fool in some ways). I guess it's possible that all those Twin Peaks superfans left after episode 8... of course it's quite irrationnal to be angry about that, I shouldn't mind that people were very enthusiastic, but it made it really difficult to discuss the subject.

[Astronaut Omens]

Like, I getttt that Lynch is mauling our expectations inside-out, slaughtering the very concept of nostalgia on the altar of television, and possibly parodying the superhero trend - but mate. Cockney with a gardening glove vs. spiritual embodiment of abuse and malice. Doesn't do it for me.

I think what he was up to with the Bob-ball scene is quite related to how you put it there though- to me every time they camp Bob up a bit it actually takes things back to
Laura-s death:

I think in the original series the 'ghost story' is mostly played straight- Leland killed Laura because he was possessed by Bob, an evil spirit.
The idea that Bob is more a metaphor for Leland's abusive behaviour is definitely there and makes the story much more resonant, but it's not really made so explicit that
it ever totally gets in the way of enjoying the series as a supernatural-themed and ultimately escapist bit of entertainment.

Then in Fire Walk with Me, there is a radical re-think, and, in the harrowing thirty minutes from where Laura/Sheryl Lee first appears, Bob ceases to be a
supernatural presence and is shown as a hallucinatory rationalisation from within Laura's terrified mind- my Dad is doing these awful things to me because (Laura tells herself)
he's possessed by an evil spirit.  Imagining that Bob existed was how Laura coped with her situation. In the most upsetting scene Laura is having sex with/is being raped by  Bob, who then reveals himself to be Leland.  Laura and the viewer are forced to face the idea that Bob doesn't exist, was a protective illusion. Maybe this was why some fans of the original series hated the movie, it turns the focus from the supernatural to the incest theme which had been somewhat in the background up til then.

In the rest of the film, the supernatural and detective genre bits are made more intentionally ludicrous and parodic: the dancer giving the coded message (the 'uncle' part of the message makes no sense), Bowie appearing, howling and dissapearing, the bowls of creamed corn , Chris Isaak's bland, dazed performance- it's as if the revelation of the truth that Bob is only Leland is making the other supernatural and genre elements of the story unstable and on the verge of collapse- hence perhaps the frequent appearances of TV static- the truth is threatening the story.

It's in that light that the many goofy moments in series 3, the strange lurches in taste like the K-horror movie style death in the first episode, or the out-dated CGI when bad Diane dies, or the Nine Inch Nails doing a turn, or the weird old-fashioned equipment Bad Coop uses to communicate have to be seen- they're used as a reminder of the unreliability of the story-and the ridiculous fantasy sequence of Green Glove vs Bob-Ball is the final and complete collapse of the ghost story version of Twin Peaks. The bad taste that you allude to is I think the point-the goofiness is a deliberate reminder of the idea Bob doesn't exist, and as such brings us back to Laura's abuse and murder.

[jamiefairlie]

But if bob doesn't really exist then the whole black lodge stuff makes no sense. I didn't read that from the film though, bob and Leland both existed in the same body.

[mjwilson]

At the very least, FWWM shifts culpability away from Bob and onto Leland, taking away his excuse that Bob took over and he had no control. (We see Leland and not Bob when Theresa is killed, for example.)

[NoSleep]

Ah yeah speaking of which, I should add that part of my friend's resentment for S3 was that a lot of people online basically dismissed/put him down for "not getting it". That would annoy the shit out of me, too.

I don't think I'll ever be able to claim to have "got it"; but it isn't about "getting it". I think Lynch has realised that narrative doesn't have to be confined to conventional logic or storytelling, and works in a way that is more like musical composition or a kind of visual poetry, with themes "harmonising" or "rhyming" with one another more than than conventionally making sense.

[shagatha crustie]

Was it somewhere on here that i saw the idea that Twin Peaks is basically a different place every time you visit it as a viewer? From the dreamy high school soap of series 1 to the wacky cop serial of 2 to the staticky grimness of FWWM to the sprawling hyperreal 3. I find that very interesting - intentional or not it really works with the multiverse theory that the show is positing by the end.

[Astronaut Omens]

At the very least, FWWM shifts culpability away from Bob and onto Leland, taking away his excuse that Bob took over and he had no control. (We see Leland and not Bob when Theresa is killed, for example.)

Yeah, for me the key scenes for comparison on this point are: In the series, in Leland's death scene, ("Look into the light!") Leland minus Bob is shown as a kind of decent, remorseful person, but in FWWM Leland behaves at times in ways which are evil but also have nothing to do with Bob's wild, sexual, animalistic character e.g. the "Laura hasn't washed her hands" bit shows him as an authoritarian monster- his behaviour here doesn't really seem to have anything to do with Bob.

The idea that people "possessed by Bob" are actually culpable for their actions then throws a very unpleasant light on the Bad Coop threads in Series 3,
since, followed to logical conclusions, it would imply that Cooper raped Audrey and Diane.

[Thursday]

Bad coop isn't Coop in the same way though since he's the doppelganger you see at the end of series 2. He's Bob in a doppelganger

[The Mollusk]

I don't think I'll ever be able to claim to have "got it"; but it isn't about "getting it". I think Lynch has realised that narrative doesn't have to be confined to conventional logic or storytelling, and works in a way that is more like musical composition or a kind of visual poetry, with themes "harmonising" or "rhyming" with one another more than than conventionally making sense.

I don't doubt that this way of thinking would grind the gears of the fans who think that everything is connected logically and it's up to them to untangle it, but I totally agree with you. With something as abstract as Twin Peaks, especially its third season, I really have no interest in trying to understand absolutely everything about it and I much more enjoy just getting lost in the composition of the whole thing. Despite its slow and mystifying weirdness, I find the whole thing to be immersive and brilliant.

To be honest, I feel like this about a lot of art. I'm not interested in dissecting lyrics of a song, I just like how they fit in with the music. I'm very self-conscious about my intellect due to my ADHD and I often feel like things like this mean that I'm basically stupid, but I try not to let it bother me. It doesn't hinder my enjoyment of things at all, which is all that matters to me.

[Thursday]

I understand the frustration, just because a lot of Lynch's stuff feels like you could be building towards a more logical mystery with concrete answers and it makes you want to know them, but I just don't think any potential solid answer would be as interesting.

Blue Velvet is one that has a more traditional set-up in that regard, and while that's great, the answers it offers to it's mysteries aren't really what sticks with you about the film.

[The Mollusk]

I'm a big fan of audacious artistic statements and Lynch is no stranger to that, which is part of why I enjoy it so much. The deliberate lack of a clear resolution or sufficient amount of answers is something I find greatly amusing.

The thing I disliked the most about season 3, more than the Bob-ball or the insanely drawn out Dougie stuff (which isn't to say I disliked them personally, in fact I thought they were great) was the crap with Audrey and her husband. I found it excruciating to the point of near madness, I didn't know the true definition of "extreme tedium" until I saw that.

[Egyptian Feast]

I don't doubt that this way of thinking would grind the gears of the fans who think that everything is connected logically and it's up to them to untangle it, but I totally agree with you. With something as abstract as Twin Peaks, especially its third season, I really have no interest in trying to understand absolutely everything about it and I much more enjoy just getting lost in the composition of the whole thing. Despite its slow and mystifying weirdness, I find the whole thing to be immersive and brilliant.

To be honest, I feel like this about a lot of art. I'm not interested in dissecting lyrics of a song, I just like how they fit in with the music. I'm very self-conscious about my intellect due to my ADHD and I often feel like things like this mean that I'm basically stupid, but I try not to let it bother me. It doesn't hinder my enjoyment of things at all, which is all that matters to me.

You've both perfectly summed up my feelings on Lynch (and a lot of other art). It can be fun and occasionally enlightening to read people's interpretations of various details, but my mind tends to wander the more detailed the discussion gets and I tune out pretty quickly. If a coherent explanation of everything that occurs in Series 3 existed, I wouldn't want to know. I loved Mulholland Drive more before I read too many imdb posts about it.

I once showed a friend one of my favourite movies,Performance. I've seen it so many times since I first caught it on BBC 2's Forbidden weekend (presented by Alex Cox) as an early teen and hated it, but it's a film I'll never tire of revisiting precisely because I've never quite got to the bottom of it. I have my own understanding of it, but would find it difficult to explain coherently if someone asked me. The events don't occur within reality as I understand it, so I don't have the words to describe them. My friend explained the ending as pretty much the twist from Fight Club, which had never occurred to me on countless viewings and still hasn't.

[Blumf]

The thing I disliked the most about season 3, more than the Bob-ball or the insanely drawn out Dougie stuff (which isn't to say I disliked them personally, in fact I thought they were great) was the crap with Audrey and her husband. I found it excruciating to the point of near madness, I didn't know the true definition of "extreme tedium" until I saw that.

Aw, that was the cherry on top of the whole season for me. Both standing separate from and embedded deep within the whole show. Watching the old couple's arguments whilst they also touched on various mysteries and loose threads was brilliant.

[jamiefairlie]

I have slightly different take on TP. For me the hook was the supernatural spooky thriller. Was bored shitless by the soap bits but put up with them as the good bits were often embedded therein. In S3, I actually enjoyed the meandering nature of the story but, separately, still wanted the the thriller story to have a satisfying end, which it didn't for me. The amount of torment that the good characters endured deserved a more lingering, satisfying pay back than bob being punched into hell.

[Blumf]

I suppose a question is, can you have a satisfying closure whilst maintaining the mystery?

[The Mollusk]

That depends on how long you drag it out for. Twin Peaks has so much going on over such a long period of time that one might hope for at least a couple of the arcs reaching a conclusion even if the end result is still really baffling. If you compare it to a film like The Thing, I think that is the perfect amount of closure/mystery remaining, that's obviously due in part to its extremely limited scope of location and characters for its duration.

[Captain Crunch]

I've just started a rewatch from the start, just got to the fire at t'mill.  Can we just take a moment to appreciate that scene where Ed's telling the story about how Nadine lost her eye?