Shooting #24601

[TrenterPercenter]

Let me rephrase.  Booze is legal, socially acceptable and commonplace.  In America the same can be said of gun ownership.  If we think badly of the gunshop then we should also blame off licences for bashed heads at the weekend.

I think I can see what you are getting at in a environment where guns and booze are legal (though not for this 18 your old as I've just pointed out) then are their relative negative consequences not applicable all things being equal.

I think you might be missing that bit that poster are disagreeing with the notion of selling guns to kids in the first place is morally wrong.

[Bigfella]

The booze thing is particular silly because he wouldn't be able to buy booze would he, despite being able to buy a giant fuck off assault rifle like outta one of them 80s movies (only in America).

The question was whether or not the sale of guns and the sale of guns are both reprehensible.  Not whether this particular guy could have bought booze.  I'd bet a pound to a penny that even in America, booze ultimately ends and destroys more lives.

[bgmnts]

I'm as anti booze as it gets I think but booze isn't specifically designed for murdering people.

It's apples and big fuck off guns.

[TrenterPercenter]

Selling assault rifles to 18 year olds to shoot innocent people is worse than selling alcohol to over 21 year olds that slowly drink themselves to death for lots of reasons

1. Assault weapons are designed with expressed intent of murdering as many humans as possible
2. The nature of the weapon has a direct relation to death of others, alcohol is a moderator to violence (whilst guns are a mediator in the death by guns relationship to killing others and as with 1 the type of weapon directly impacts on the level of death that can be achieved).
3. Alcohol provides some social benefits alongside it's negative effects
4. You cannot walk into a shopping centre and easily kill 10 people with a bottle of gin
5. Deaths from alcohol is a public health issue, murdering people is a criminal issue.

[shoulders]

At the risk of sounding like a chveik sockpuppet: Lol glad we cleared that up.

[Joe Qunt]

I don't think the solution to protecting yourself from fascists is to disarm the communities most in need of protection. That's just my opinion.

[TrenterPercenter]

I don't think the solution to protecting yourself from fascists is to disarm the communities most in need of protection. That's just my opinion.

Do you think allowing everyone to carry guns in the UK would end up with more people dying from fascist shooting them or less?

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

4. You cannot walk into a shopping centre and easily kill 10 people with a bottle of gin

Smash the bottle on the edge of a shelf then glass people in the neck?

[TrenterPercenter]

Smash the bottle on the edge of a shelf then glass people in the neck?

Possible but I saying compared to using an AK-47

[Icehaven]

On an fb fan page of a band I like someone recently posted a picture of a gun with a portrait of the band's singer painted on that they'd just bought. The responses ranged from a few likes to plenty of criticism, and the poster was just raging at any negative comments, even the flippant/jokey ones. I've no idea what he thought was going to happen but the level of (apparently) butthurt fury he hurled at anyone less than impressed with his new toy suggested it hadn't even had occurred to him that not everyone thinks guns are cool. Wasn't a great advert for gun owners responding rationally and thoughtfully when challenged.

[Neomod]

On an fb fan page of a band I like someone recently posted a picture of a gun with a portrait of the band's singer painted on that they'd just bought.

Stuart Murdoch?

[Uncle TechTip]

Smash the bottle on the edge of a shelf then glass people in the neck?

Use it to concoct a noxious alcoholic gas that you release into the shopping centre.

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't think the solution to protecting yourself from fascists is to disarm the communities most in need of protection. That's just my opinion.

There is an opinion (which I'm not sure I agree fully with) that the state shouldn't be the only group in a situation with access to means of defence like guns. At least, not this shitty state.

[shoulders]

I don't think the solution to protecting yourself from fascists is to disarm the communities most in need of protection. That's just my opinion.

Protecting yourself never means owning a gun unless you live so far from help there's no other option. Gun carrying is a legacy from pioneer times and its very existence betrays the colonial violence America was founded on.

There's a good reason pretty much every other developed country manages just fine without owning a gun.

Peace never means more guns.

[Fambo Number Mive]

I note that many defenders of the current situation with guns in America claim that they are needed "so a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun." I was wondering how many times civilians with concealed carry or open carry permits have actually stopped someone else with a gun from doing something bad. I suspect this doesn't happen very often.

[Zetetic]

I don't think the solution to protecting yourself from fascists is to disarm the communities most in need of protection. That's just my opinion.

The background checks system as it stands already does this though, unfortunately.

Close to one in ten of the adult population of the US are on the FBI's NICS register, mostly made of up of:
  10 million "illegal aliens"
  6.4 million mental health
  4.6 million done a crime with a long enough jail sentence

Getting on there for mental health mostly involves compulsory admission, and drug offences are often enough to get you into the crime category - both of which are massively systemically biased towards stripping the right from black and poor people.

And the massive legal loopholes for background checks against the NICS registers are much more readily available to some people - white people, for example - than others; even if the background check process itself wasn't massively biased, the workarounds are.

[Zetetic]

An interesting bit of gun control history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Cruikshank

[touchingcloth]

Why don't they simply pass a law so that gun shop owners have to ask "are you going to do a murder?" before they sell someone a gun? If they only sell it to the people who answer "no" or "probably not" or "define murder" then the issue of mass shootings would disappear overnight.

[superthunderstingcar]

Ouch please don't attribute that quote to me 🙏

My apologies, I didn't notice that 'quote selected text' worked the way it does on this forum.

[shoulders]

My apologies, I didn't notice that 'quote selected text' worked the way it does on this forum.

Yes I was sure it wasn't deliberate. An annoying quirk.

[TrenterPercenter]

Why don't they simply pass a law so that gun shop owners have to ask "are you going to do a murder?" before they sell someone a gun? If they only sell it to the people who answer "no" or "probably not" or "define murder" then the issue of mass shootings would disappear overnight.

Perhaps some mandated stickers on the guns themselves

"Shooting Kills!"
"This gun should not be fired at other people"
[picture of a man looking disappointed in bed with his wife next to an AK]

[Joe Qunt]

Protecting yourself never means owning a gun unless you live so far from help there's no other option. Gun carrying is a legacy from pioneer times and its very existence betrays the colonial violence America was founded on.

There's a good reason pretty much every other developed country manages just fine without owning a gun.

Peace never means more guns.

This might be true for a white person in the UK, but black people in America cannot rely upon those same options. When the state itself is at war with you, can you really turn to the state to protect you from harm? Liberals have no intention of protecting people when they call for stricter gun regulation; all they want is a state monopoly on arms, in which only they can determine when to use violence. As Zetetic mentions, the measures imposed by white liberals to "protect" minorities actually do more harm to those communities. When you can't trust the state to protect you, you must defend yourself.

This is why I believe black people – and all oppressed peoples – should exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, organise and protect themselves from the threats evident in American society.

Peace may not mean more guns, but it doesn't mean surrender either.

[JamesTC]

They should allow one abortion for every bullet sold and vice-versa. It would keep the left and the right happy.

[shoulders]

This might be true for a white person in the UK

No sorry, I specifically placed it in an American context if you refer back to my post.

[TrenterPercenter]

This might be true for a white person in the UK

I'm not sure you've thought this through.....I appreciate you might be taking your lead from Killer Mike but he is wrong on this one.

[Famous Mortimer]

black people in America cannot rely upon those same options. When the state itself is at war with you, can you really turn to the state to protect you from harm? Liberals have no intention of protecting people when they call for stricter gun regulation; all they want is a state monopoly on arms, in which only they can determine when to use violence. As Zetetic mentions, the measures imposed by white liberals to "protect" minorities actually do more harm to those communities. When you can't trust the state to protect you, you must defend yourself.

This is why I believe black people – and all oppressed peoples – should exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, organise and protect themselves from the threats evident in American society.

Peace may not mean more guns, but it doesn't mean surrender either.

Well put. While openly racist police departments continue to get tooled up, demanding that the people they most often prey on give up any means of defending themselves is not perhaps the best option. I think replacing the whole rotten system should be the most important thing, but until that happens...

[Zetetic]

As Zetetic mentions, the measures imposed by white liberals to "protect" minorities actually do more harm to those communities. When you can't trust the state to protect you, you must defend yourself.

This is why I believe black people – and all oppressed peoples – should exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, organise and protect themselves from the threats evident in American society.

Except they've never really had those rights - and mostly for reasons completely disconnected from "white liberals" - and very explicitly for most of the last 150 years.

[idunnosomename]

Elon Musk is on the case to stop the gun massacre menace. He will install tunnels in supermarkets and schools so that in the event of a young man going apeshit with an automatic weapon, black people and children can escape underground.

[Goldentony]

This is why I believe black people – and all oppressed peoples – should exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, organise and protect themselves from the threats evident in American society.

problem is they tried this AND THEN....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

[TrenterPercenter]

Didn't realise CaB was so pro-gun.  Grim.