Why do Americans say 'British' when they mean 'English'?

[clingfilm portent]

'You Brits'.

No.

They don't refer to anyone else in the British Isles as a Brit. They will hear any distinctly English accent, saying something distinctly and unmistakably English, and say Brit. Coloniser I'll accept, but Brit?

What gives?

[Alberon]

And yet most of the time they say England when they mean Britain.

[thenoise]

Same reason that English people from the Southern US Yanks.

It's because they are stupid fucking cunts.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

they cleansed their education and culture industry of colonial history. they also cleansed it of any history of socialism or national independence, so that theirs could be the first and wholly distinct from certain other revolutions and uprisings that happened in europe that is historically in seperable from. their colonisation wasn't a true colonisation, it was a dream of freedom that was unfortunately tainted by racial tension. just like their imperialism isn't really imperialism.

the idea that colonialism and anti-colonial/occupation/settlement struggles were common before 1775, in normal white people countries no less, nukes foundational myths of american statehood irreparably. they need to be sole resistance to a unified, homogenous British force or it falls apart. it also falls apart if you think too much about colonisation, migration and settlement being normal things that humans have done since we've existed. and it also falls apart if you think about ethnic, cultural and linguistic divisions in 'white people' that pre-exist settlement. 'white people' must be a homogenous block and distinct from the great 'melting pot' where white people encountered difference for the first time ever in history. history must turn on new world v old world or it won't turn at all.

american students ive know are usually far more knowledgeable and culturally curious about the UK and Europe than stereotype suggests but its far from rare to see them befuddled about colonial history "oh you guys were owned by these guys?" etc. the sort of "typically british" things that American media corps and culture industry like tends to be presentation of false homogeny like Harry Potter and Tolkein. except that america doesn't have a 'culture industry', its just people liking the things that they like. just like they they're a classless and post-ideological society where all that remains to sort out is greater and greater degrees of inclusion in the already perfected democratic state.

[thr0b]

They say "Briddish", acshully.

[El Unicornio, mang]

"English" is more associated with the language there, which some of them think they invented. Genuinely had someone once ask what language we speak in the UK and if it might be referred to as "Londonese".

[Shaxberd]

The British Empire itself tended to blur Englishness and Britishness together. Even now, can the English say they really say they have a national identity that is distinct from Britishness, beyond just "well, we're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish"?

I also expect that in the days of America's settlement there was probably an important social difference between The British (our former imperial overlords, bad) and the identity of many settlers as Scottish, Irish, Welsh (we were oppressed by The British too, we came here to escape them).

Notably you'll get plenty of Yanks keen to talk about how their great-great-grandfather was Scottish or Irish, but outside of the New Englanders who can trace their lineage back to the Mayflower, nobody is proudly English-American.

[Captain Z]

I think this is ok isn't it? Actually shows quite a good level of appreciation that not everybody with a 'British' accent is from England. I wouldn't expect your average American to recognise the difference between regional UK accents any more than I would expect myself to detect the difference between, say, Ohio and Arizona accents.

[idunnosomename]

Wait till you find out about the Japanese. Their word for the United Kingdom, except in formal diplomatic contexts, is イギリス (Igirisu).

Although it originally comes from contact with Dutch traders in the 17th century. And in that context we're just as guilty for using Holland to refer to all of the Netherlands.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

thinking about places and groups in terms of "identity" and "difference" in this way is itself terminally industrial-era european so reaping/sowing meme

[Alberon]

The Amish call American people English, probably to piss them off.

[dissolute ocelot]

Limeys! (Has anyone been called a limey since about 1950?)

Be glad you're not cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

[Zetetic]

Given most English people (and indeed most British people) also do this...

[Endicott]

The British Empire itself tended to blur Englishness and Britishness together. Even now, can the English say they really say they have a national identity that is distinct from Britishness, beyond just "well, we're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish"?

Toad-in-the-hole
Kendal Mint Cake
Cricket
Paddington Bear's wellingtons.

[Zetetic]

Bunch of bits of The Guardian can't reliably distinguish UK and England.

[idunnosomename]

The Amish call American people English, probably to piss them off.

to be fair, the people they call English do speak English (the Amish traditionally speak in a dialect of German)

[touchingcloth]

I think this is ok isn't it? Actually shows quite a good level of appreciation that not everybody with a 'British' accent is from England. I wouldn't expect your average American to recognise the difference between regional UK accents any more than I would expect myself to detect the difference between, say, Ohio and Arizona accents.

I think saying British is generally better, because it covers all of the isles. I don't think I'd refer to someone from the ROI or their accent as "British", but it's the best shorthand we have for talking about people from the UK regardless of which home nation they're from, which is more than you can say for whoever decided to badge our Olympic sides as Team GB. Would I refer to someone from Gibraltar or the Falklands as a Brit? Thankfully I never have to deal with those people.

The American thing is an odd sort of hypercorrection. I don't think any Brit would have given the name "Wee Britain" to that scene in Arrested Development, nor would they refer to black people in general as "African American". There are other oddities in how they either don't know how to think of us or can't hear the difference between our accents that you see in things like Mrs Doubtfire being described as British, probably supposed to be English specifically, but portrayed with a Scotch accent.

[Blumf]

Genuinely had someone once ask what language we speak in the UK and if it might be referred to as "Londonese".

Gertcha!

[The Culture Bunker]

to be fair, the people they call English do speak English (the Amish traditionally speak in a dialect of German)

Don't they call everyone who isn't Amish 'English'? Must cause some near scraps with any Irish lads they might meet.

[idunnosomename]

Don't they call everyone who isn't Amish 'English'? Must cause some near scraps with any Irish lads they might meet.

unless they speak Gaelic, logically they're correct

[dissolute ocelot]

"English" comes from a root meaning "narrow" (via a peninsula in eastern Schleswig-Holstein whence the Anglii came) and "British" is unclear but most plausibly means "painted" (like Pict; it was originally Pritannica or ancient Greek Pretannike before the Romans messed it up.) And of course "Albion" means "white" (allegedly for the chalk cliffs), but "Alba" is used in Irish and Scots Gaelic to refer to Scotland.

So is England more narrow, painted, or white?

[Kankurette]

They think England colonised Scotland like Belgium colonised the Congo, and Scotland had no role in the Empire. Aye for Scotland gets loads of American Scotnats in his inbox and they're a trip.

[Gurke and Hare]

Is it that surprising that they get mixed up? The whole UK/Great Britain/England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland set-up is a bit convoluted really, and like nothing else anywhere with the differing extents to which the different countries (Are they even countries? They aren't sovereign states, certainly) have different degrees of devolved power and their own football teams. I wouldn't be surprised if the confusion exists just as much within loads of other countries, but we don't really notice because they don't speak English.

[Alberon]

You'd think the one country that would get it right would be the United States though since their setup isn't all that different.

[Blumf]

Had sat navs that irritatingly split up address lookup between the nations. Driving to somewhere in Scotland or Wales, had to back out of the English address section and into the relevant area first.

[beanheadmcginty]

Although it originally comes from contact with Dutch traders in the 17th century. And in that context we're just as guilty for using Holland to refer to all of the Netherlands.

It's only fair as the Dutch call all the British "Engels" unless they have a specific point to make.

[Kankurette]

It always confuses me when Americans say they hate Brits but not Scottish or Welsh people. If you mean the English, say the English.

The British Empire itself tended to blur Englishness and Britishness together. Even now, can the English say they really say they have a national identity that is distinct from Britishness, beyond just "well, we're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish"?

I also expect that in the days of America's settlement there was probably an important social difference between The British (our former imperial overlords, bad) and the identity of many settlers as Scottish, Irish, Welsh (we were oppressed by The British too, we came here to escape them).

Notably you'll get plenty of Yanks keen to talk about how their great-great-grandfather was Scottish or Irish, but outside of the New Englanders who can trace their lineage back to the Mayflower, nobody is proudly English-American.

Scottish-Americans who do this tend to be into clans. I made a thread about this a while back. I have no idea what clan my dad was from and neither did he and nobody in the Scottish half of my family gives a gnat's bollock about clans anyway. Weren't they mainly a Highlands thing?

The extreme end of this sort of thing is that Celtic Films twat who claims he got his barrel chest from his Welsh ancestors and that the Irish who stayed behind in Ireland were weak simps.

[Blinder Data]

because calling someone an "Eng" sounds weird?

it's the same for other countries. when i lived in france i tried to say i was britannique but people didn't really get it. tell them you're anglais and they don't get excited. say you're ecossais and you can get a good rapport going about holidays in the highlands and the auld alliance.

[Kankurette]

Do French and Scottish football fans bond over hating England or are the French arsed cigs about us?

[DrGreggles]

Basically it's down to education.
They're* not taught about other countries at school, so accept England and Britain as being the same thing as they don't know otherwise - and no one corrects them.

Mrs Greggles mum told me a few years ago that they were visiting England as part of a European trip. When I asked which part she said "Scotland". She's in her 70's.


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