Philip Roth

[Mobbd]

I watched the first half of Yentob's Imagine... film about Roth on YouTube last week and it put me right in the mood for some of his naughty, brilliant books. Roth's, I mean. Not Yentob's. Ew.

In past years I read Portnoy's Complaint, The Breast, and The Ghost Writer. Loved them all. Unsure why I didn't read more. Feel a binge coming on.

To begin said rampage, I read Zuckerman Unbound in one big gulp. Easy choice, it being next in the Zuck series after The Ghost Writer. Loved it. But what next?

I don't feel especially drawn to The Anatomy Lesson (arthritis kvetch) or The Prague Orgy (fall of communism), which are the next two Zuckerman volumes. Must I read them (or should I read them because they're great?) before progressing to The Counterlife, which sounds ace (and contains more about Zuck's idiot brother, which is very appealing to me)?

Similar question concerning the so-called "Roth" books: I'm keen to read Operation Skylock but it's Book 4 in that run. Does that matter? Does the "Roth" character of these books have a continuity in any way?

*

This thread can be for talking about Philip Roth generally, not just for answering my two boring questions.

Here's the full list of Philip Roth's books in case that's a useful reminder of what I'm blathering about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Roth#List_of_works

And here are both parts of the Imagine... film for anyone who fancies it:

↑ Hark at that wattle. Phoar.

(Paging @Keebleman and @buttgammon who I think are fans?)

[Red82]

I've only read American Pastoral.  I didn't like it because I like terrorists more than I do Clinton Liberals like Phil. It was well written though.

[poodlefaker]

He had a great late burst in the 90s: American Pastoral, Operation Shylock, I Married a Communist, Sabbath's Theatre, Human Stain. They're all a bit messy to varying degrees, and some of the themes and language are iffy, but full of creative energy and very readable; def. his most bingeable period, I'd say, you can plough through them.

To answer you question, I don't think it matters which order you read his stuff in; the framing devices he uses (eg the Nathan Zuckerman narrator) tend to be pretty liminal, esp. in the ones I've just mentioned.

[Keebleman]

I haven't read any Roth for some years, but this has reminded me that I have a copy of Exit Ghost so I will take it on my 12 hour night shift this evening. 

It's a second hand copy.  On the title page the previous owner has written, "A very boring book by one incredibly dull writer about another equally dull mercifully forgotten one."  And another note describes Roth as a "wanky little creative writing major."

[dontpaintyourteeth]

I've got paperback copies of American Pastoral and Portnoy's Complaint but I've never found the time to read them.

_{another quality contribution here}

[Mobbd]

On the title page the previous owner has written, "A very boring book by one incredibly dull writer about another equally dull mercifully forgotten one."  And another note describes Roth as a "wanky little creative writing major."

That's hilarious.

I sometimes wonder if I defend/champion authors like Roth because I secretly think that on some level, one day, I could join their number if only I applied myself. Even though the entire system is rigged against oiks like me, and even though I'm too old now. It's like how Trump voters think anyone can make it in America and that Trump is one of them. But I don't buy that the privileged position in the canon of authors like Roth is always unearned: Roth for one is an incredible writer.

[kalowski]

I recall loving The Plot Against America.

[Mobbd]

I recall loving The Plot Against America.

Sold. I quite fancy that one so I just reserved it at the library.

[mr. logic]

Sabbath's Theatre is his best for me.

I'm actually reading Zuckerman Unbound and enjoyed his visit to Elaine's where he sees 'the auteur'- which I take to be a dig at Woody Allen, somebody he hated.

[Keebleman]

So I read Exit Ghost tonight and it is excellent.  Of his late books I've read Nemesis and Everyman, and neither made much of an impression on me, but this is one I'll remember and return to.  It is brilliant on aging and decline and how we come to feel alienated from our bodies and from society.  So it's bleak, inevitably, but it isn't depressing because Roth shows that even in one's decline there is still the capacity for surprise, excitement and infatuation.

[Keebleman]

It's a second hand copy.  On the title page the previous owner has written, "A very boring book by one incredibly dull writer about another equally dull mercifully forgotten one."  And another note describes Roth as a "wanky little creative writing major."

This has puzzled me.  The first 'incredibly dull writer' is, presumably, Roth, but who is the second?  Zuckerman or Lonoff? And is it a joke, or did the owner not realise Zuckerman and/or Lonoff are fictional creations?

There are two other annotations in the book, both on page 124 of my Vintage paperback edition.  Alongside a description of a woman's sweater she (and I'm pretty sure it's a woman as the handwriting is feminine) has written "Ugh!", and a couple of paragraphs below, when Roth is writing about Richard Strauss's Four Songs, she has put, "Banal crap.  1/10."

[AllisonSays]

Portnoy's Complaint made an enormous impression on me when I was younger for being so frank and funny about sexual desire, although I think I might find it more unpleasant now than I did as a prurient teenager. And as someone said upthread I found American Pastoral very compelling as an account of generational difference and difficulty.

I think I've read a couple of the Zuckerberg ones but they didn't leave much of a trace.

[curiousoranges]

Wanking thread

[13 schoolyards]

When that recent highly anticipated biography of Roth was released and then almost immediately pulled because the author was accused of various sexual wrongdoings, I thought about grabbing a copy before it vanished. But then he found another publisher for it, so no rush.

[mr. logic]

When that recent highly anticipated biography of Roth was released and then almost immediately pulled because the author was accused of various sexual wrongdoings, I thought about grabbing a copy before it vanished. But then he found another publisher for it, so no rush.

I read it and even though the bloke is obviously a cunt, it's a brilliant and addictive read.

[buttgammon]

Although he was sometimes inconsistent - with such a long career, who wouldn't be? - there's just something about the humour of his prose, the essential darkness of many of his subjects and his deftness of style that I find endlessly compelling.

Roth fans should check out Joshua Cohen, who's his heir in a lot of ways and has a similar sense of humour. The Netanyahus is a great read but I'd also highly recommend Book of Numbers, which is a mad book in the best possible way.

[dontpaintyourteeth]

The Netanyahus was excellent yeah.

[Mobbd]

When that recent highly anticipated biography of Roth was released and then almost immediately pulled because the author was accused of various sexual wrongdoings, I thought about grabbing a copy before it vanished. But then he found another publisher for it, so no rush.

I'd like to read that but I'm reluctant to give money to that publisher. They're free speech edgelord cunts.

I will scour the libraries and chazza shops for it though.

[Mobbd]

Portnoy's Complaint made an enormous impression on me when I was younger for being so frank and funny about sexual desire, although I think I might find it more unpleasant now than I did as a prurient teenager. And as someone said upthread I found American Pastoral very compelling as an account of generational difference and difficulty.

I think I've read a couple of the Zuckerberg ones but they didn't leave much of a trace.

I read Portnoy as an adult. Maybe 10 years ago so early thirties. Enjoyed it tremendously. Remains my fave.

[Mobbd]

This has puzzled me.  The first 'incredibly dull writer' is, presumably, Roth, but who is the second?  Zuckerman or Lonoff? And is it a joke, or did the owner not realise Zuckerman and/or Lonoff are fictional creations?

There are two other annotations in the book, both on page 124 of my Vintage paperback edition.  Alongside a description of a woman's sweater she (and I'm pretty sure it's a woman as the handwriting is feminine) has written "Ugh!", and a couple of paragraphs below, when Roth is writing about Richard Strauss's Four Songs, she has put, "Banal crap.  1/10."

I was similarly puzzled by that and J assumed she/they meant Zuckerman for the second author, which works but is a bit odd.

A lot of women seem not to like Roth, which is fair. Not for real life behaviour, I don't think, but for the overtly (perhaps ignorantly) male way he writes. I'd say that's a valid matter of taste rather than a problem with who Roth is/was. I just remembered that the Imagine film wasn't quite the beginning of this binge: it was Naomi Klein's Doppelgänger book. She clearly loved her recent read of Operation Shylock and had many good things to say about it but I think she read it with a bit of a peg on her nose. She says something like "haven't we heard enough from guys like Roth?" by which she means Ivy-type well-off male Americans. My wife (who is also, like Klein and indeed Roth, Jewish North American) finds Roth a bit tragic. She doesn't deny his greatness as a writer but she's just, like, "oh, put it away, Philip."

(Hah.Just then when I typed "Philip'" autocomplete expected me to type "phimosis.")

[Mobbd]

So much for my binge.

I picked up The Plot Against America but I couldn't handle it. Too topical for my liking. It's a parallel history in which Charles Lindbergh wins the presidency over FDR. He's a lot like Trump or at least the fears of Jews in America are similar to those of today's Liberals and minorities regarding Trump. A better mensch than I would read this now but I found it too stressful, too close to our horrifying current reality.

So I moved on to The Anatomy Lesson, the third of the Zuckerman novels. I did not care for it. It lacks the levity of the first two (and the other Philip Roth books I've read). It is meandering and complacent.

I also see for the first time the Philip Roth that people don't like. There's definite misogyny in the book and not just in service of painting a flawed character. I have long felt that the critics of Roth in this regard have confused sexism with sexuality and can't face the reality that an older man might have a sexuality without thinking of him as "dirty" or a predator. But this book does come across as pretty objectionable to be honest. Even when it's presented in jest it felt so gross and so pointless that I wondered why I was still reading it.

So yeah. Bit of a dampener on my Roth appreciation project.

I looked it up on Wiki just now and it's acknowledged that it's the least well received of the Zucks. This gives me hope at least and I'll probably read The Prague Orgy after a break.

Anyway, back to my poo.

[Blinder Data]

of the Roth stuff I've read, I've enjoyed it. but you can absolutely see how easy it is to write off his work as nicely written but overly male, sex-obsessed fodder for horny blokes with a university degree

a selection of Philip Roth titles:

the anatomy lesson
the Prague orgy
the professor of desire
the derriere of destiny
the breast

(only one of those is made up)

[Mobbd]

of the Roth stuff I've read, I've enjoyed it. but you can absolutely see how easy it is to write off his work as nicely written but overly male, sex-obsessed fodder for horny blokes with a university degree

a selection of Philip Roth titles:

the anatomy lesson
the Prague orgy
the professor of desire
the derriere of destiny
the breast

(only one of those is made up)

Totally. Personally I wouldn't write anything off as smart and horny. That's my preferred company tbh.

[poodlefaker]

Totally. Personally I wouldn't write anything off as smart and horny. That's my preferred company tbh.

you need to move onto Updike next then.

[Blinder Data]

you need to move onto Updike next then.

now there's a guy who hates women!

[Mobbd]

you need to move onto Updike next then.

Haven't read much. Just that short story about the bikini girls going into a store. Was good though!

A&P the story is called apparently.

Think I struggled with Rabbit Run as a teen.

[Virgo76]

now there's a guy who hates women!

Norman Mailer...

[Keebleman]

Last week I read the Ghost Writer, the first of the Zuckerman books, about a month after I read the last of them, and I found it much less engaging. It was almost entirely focused on the difficulties and traumas that come from being a published writer, a sub genre of literary fiction I have far less tolerance for than when I was younger. I did enjoy, though, the conflicts Zuckerman had with his family that were sparked by his writing, but the best part of the book for me was Zuckerman's imaginings about the history of one of the characters, imaginings he shares with us at length, which of course is how Roth would use Zuckerman in his great novels of the 90s.

[Mobbd]

Last week I read the Ghost Writer, the first of the Zuckerman books, about a month after I read the last of them, and I found it much less engaging. It was almost entirely focused on the difficulties and traumas that come from being a published writer, a sub genre of literary fiction I have far less tolerance for than when I was younger. I did enjoy, though, the conflicts Zuckerman had with his family that were sparked by his writing, but the best part of the book for me was Zuckerman's imaginings about the history of one of the characters, imaginings he shares with us at length, which of course is how Roth would use Zuckerman in his great novels of the 90s.

I remember his suspicion that Anne Frank

Spoiler alert

is both alive and into him. Hilariously despicable. Loved it.

[close]

[poodlefaker]

The Anne Frank thing would've made a great novel in its own right, I thought; it's a great idea but he doesn't really pursue it.