Started by Retinend, January 22, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Sam on January 24, 2014, 10:44:19 PMNo, I'd argue more or less the opposite. The bigger picture, in fact, is that the innovation is superficial and it's precisely the tension between consevative/progressive from where key works of modernism arise. Yes, there's innovation a-go-go but in direct engagement with the previous tradition. The Futurists were hysterical about the break from the past but they fizzled out; someone like Schoenberg who will always be in the history books for changing the course of music, wrestled constantly with tradition. One of the key 'innovations' was total motivic coherence, where all of the ideas of the piece stem from a single cell. You can find this in Bach and Beethoven, nothing new.
Quote from: Smeraldina Rima on January 24, 2014, 11:57:54 PMI don't know if it was what you would consider appreciation but there was a significant attempt at an appreciation of what African sculpture or generally "primitive art" represented and in valuing poorly understood "representations" by altering aesthetic judgement away from the classical.Georges Bataille and Carl Einstein (preferable to Alfred 'the great, the great and the other great' Einstein to me at least) wrote a lot about this in their Documents periodical
QuoteI think you were alone in being concerned about some of the things to do with Naziism and raised a lot of defences from no attacks. Although I don't think I was as unclear as what followed suggests I am partly responsible for that shit turn in the thread. Apart from I think justifiably finding the documentary offensive, the point was really that the kicking against first wave serialism so hard is relevant in the more trenchant second wave. Exploring that would have nothing to do with the private value judgements of Nazis. Similar irrelevance of your purely thinking it bad here to anybody else's purely thinking it good.
Quote...But that they only found it bad, plain bad art, as you justifiably do, but dubiously claim on their behalf, and not also repulsive is untenable. Actually it may be possible to hold this view in an obscure way and think they only went about presenting it as repulsive, but I think ...this is too singularly focussed on the important practical economic situation and discerning only their shrewd political tactics ....
QuoteThe Georg Grosz example is a good way of trying to show why I find the economic explanation unsatisfactory and insensitive to draw on.
QuoteYou identify a subject of his art as the heart of what the Nazi culture cleansing was truly against (not completely inaccurately but it seems a wayward thing to observe)
Quote, when in effect they were equally against his aesthetic, and him personally too. He was part of the degenerate cull (I don't say this as if you don't already know), his life was destroyed and he ended up a broken man making traditional landscapes that the Nazis would have approved of, saying what was frozen was thawed and now he could paint properly in the USA.
QuoteNow there is a terribly nervous part of me that thinks you might prefer his later artistic style, or find the thawing was in relation to Weimar republic decadence only and good for him.
QuoteThe show was clearly not about defining only bad art and the title wasn't a hyperbolic relation to its content. Here's one of the exhibits:It's Schmidt-Rotluff and Modigliani placed alongside deformity photos from a Race and Art book from 1928. I can understand that you want to stress a propaganda element but to what purpose I don't see. It became so pervasive an identification in the culture that it's irrelevant whether the associations arose from a mere dislike of bad art or as a sincere grouping of degenerate style and degenerate Germany.
QuoteIt could be interesting if you wanted to set out what you would really value about an integral popular classical culture that communicated with a large audience. I think this is the point of the thread...I can't even comprehend what a popular current musical tradition that is still closer to Mozart or Debussy would sound like or what people who wanted to go to see a kind of science fiction modern classical composer who isn't that sexy guy that plays Chopin on the culture show but is instead important would be like.
QuoteAs hinted at by Howj Begg, radio 3 is currently following a course in line with the mood of the radio 4 documentary, suspiciously so.
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 10:26:14 AMNoSleep likes to use this imagery too
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 10:26:14 AMI know nothing about this trend and I don't care a jot what radio 3 does with it's programming.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 25, 2014, 10:57:34 AMReally? The most important classical music radio station in the UK? They have been whittling away at the programming for decades; it used to be quite an exciting listen in the 80s and even through the dwindling 90s. They have severely pruned its range over time, seemingly to compete with the awful Classic ("all your favourite bits") FM.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 25, 2014, 10:57:34 AMClassic ("all your favourite bits") FM.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 25, 2014, 10:57:34 AMReally?
QuoteThe most important classical music radio station in the UK? They have been whittling away at the programming for decades; it used to be quite an exciting listen in the 80s and even through the dwindling 90s. They have severely pruned its range over time, seemingly to compete with the awful Classic ("all your favourite bits") FM.
Quote from: Sam on January 25, 2014, 12:16:07 PMIt's just a competition of who knows the most shit.
Quote from: Talulah, really! on January 25, 2014, 12:18:39 PMHere!Have they though? Here's a schedule from 30 years ago.The web page has the entire Radio Times for that week.http://www.pointlessmuseum.com/museum/blog/index.php/2011/02/08/radio-times-12-18-november-1983/Comparing the schedule to the week just finished and there isn't actually all that much difference in what they are playing, they certainly weren't devoting huge hours of air time to the second Viennese school and its followers on weekday afternoons.Amusingly enough if you look at the letters page you can see D.A.Young of London W8 complaining that Radio 3 is playing Jazz!
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 10:58:37 AMedit: what is a "linguistic horror preference"?
QuotePersonally I'd like more composers that sounded like, to name some at random, Villa Lobos, John Adams, Honegger, Ravel, Gershwin, Stravinsky. If you want you can imagine with me what a contemporary scene that sounds like that and then dream along with me, but there's no facts in this realm.
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 10:26:14 AMBeing aware of the general platitudes abroad in literature about Modernist themes when it comes to Entartete Kunst, and the freedom with which people will frequently attempt to indulge themselves for liking something the Nazis didn't, I took your original links and subsequent use of them (in order to point out the show's omissions) as an move towards this old chestnut. Perhaps too rashly. Johnny Yesno did, however, then take up this stance.
QuoteFirstly, the only argument re the motivation for the Nazi cultural revolution was not "economic" but that an entire cultural scene that flourished under the liberal bourgeois rule of the Weimar Republic had to be wholesale chucked out. Secondly, and following from this, I argued there was no place to wax lyrical about how afraid the Nazis were of radical isms in the art world... it's self-serving and ahistorical, though common enough a belief.
QuoteNot wayward at all. If you cannot understand that the left and right were united against the liberal bourgeois culture of the Weimar Republic, you don't understand the history. Look at that Grosz painting - at the centre of the picture you see a skeleton superimposed over the cramped masses, drinking himself to death. Above it, you see a cab being driven airily floating above the horrors on the ground. This is as left wing as you can get.
QuoteThat's not interesting to anyone. Personally I'd like more composers that sounded like, to name some at random, Villa Lobos, John Adams, Honegger, Ravel, Gershwin, Stravinsky. If you want you can imagine with me what a contemporary scene that sounds like that and then dream along with me, but there's no facts in this realm.
Quote from: Smeraldina Rima on January 25, 2014, 12:24:52 PMI wasn't thinking of it as a case in an argument that modernism was a rejection of older values within an elite.
Quotewe disagree on a point of me hedging my bets more, not seeing the arguments as complete - just educated illustration of an embrace of the irrational or just the political philosophy motivating the Nazi's reaction to art.
Quote'If you cannot understand that the left and right were united against the liberal bourgeois culture of the Weimar Republic then you do not understand the history.' My understanding of the history is inferior but good enough to tell me that I agree with the point that they both were equally unsatisfied with it (united against it may give a wrong impression to me both for the kneejerk reason and because I think there was more in the art of this time that can be swallowed up).
QuoteI have agreed (to that extent) all the way through this and got exhausted at not being able to express why there remains a more significant aesthetic attack and that I don't see why that common feeling could explain or mitigate any of this.
QuoteThe part where you ask what my point is, it's that I think the treatment of these arts and artists ultimately mattered more than a mutual political antipathy,
QuoteI think that the art consisted of much more than one readable element of the pictorial content in Grobz' painting, and that the thread of unity is hollow in trying to understand what then happened to the arts, immediately and later down the line when the Darmstadt school is insinuated to be Communist party.
QuoteI am uncomfortable that that is what you choose to emphasise [Entartete Kunst as a scapegoat] at exclusion of other concerns, and still not clear why....I find it difficult to understand why you appear satisfied with a more mapped out originary answer
QuoteAlmost certainly a lot of this is only a division of historical and aesthetic inclination
Quotethe extent to which I might take aesthetic criteria seriously that it can seem naive, unexplanatory or even motivated by amusement, the extent to which you might place more confidence in historical stories which can seem naive too.
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 25, 2014, 01:38:07 PMYou don't like being labelled a conservative, yet you wheel out an argument much loved by conservatives - 'They're just doing it on purpose, the hipsters!'
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 25, 2014, 01:38:07 PMBut the radical-isms were symbolic of the culture of the Weimar Republic. Destroying that kind of symbolism is like flag-burning. That people aren't literally afraid of flags is trivially true.
QuoteAs Smeraldina said, 'united' could well be too strong a characterisation. If you haven't noticed that there are some Jew-hating, homophobic traditionalists on the left you haven't been paying attention.
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 02:05:25 PMI don't think art should have a political function. That's philistinism, whether left or right.
QuoteA question which brings aesthetic criteria to bear would be "how do I describe the beauty of this?" or "why does this piece of music move me?"
Quote from: Retinend on January 25, 2014, 02:21:25 PMAre flagburners afraid of flags at some deep level?
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 25, 2014, 02:26:21 PMYou're not paying attention. I said they're not literally afraid of flags. They are afraid of what they symbolise and their power to unite people with similar values.
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 25, 2014, 02:21:55 PMWhat absolute tosh. Art is about expressing values. How could that ever not be political?
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