Started by Retinend, January 22, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 22, 2014, 05:38:23 PMI think what NoSleep might be alluding to is reification, which isn't conceptually infantile.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 06:00:41 PMHow it transformed from a group of like-minded creative musicians to the modern orchestra, ready only to do the bidding of a conductor and what's on the page before them is probably a history worth investigating. This then becomes the centre of any attempt to make classical music, no interaction, feedback or transformation of what's on the page (the domain of the eye, not the ear).
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 05:17:08 PMAnd nod off in droves at a concert of one of your choices of modern composer, Steve Reich, as I saw many of his fans do at a gig I was dragged along to. I've never seen so many people fall asleep during a concert.
Quote from: Petey Pate on January 22, 2014, 05:45:06 PMWhen I first listened to Music for 18 Musicians it made me feel light headed and I thought "this is brilliant and mesmerising - I love this!". When I listened to it a second time I thought "God this is boring, annoying and repetitive - rubbish". I'm not sure why my reaction to it was so different, but I concluded that it must be music that you have to be in the mood for. Thing is, the majority of music that I love I can listen to at anytime and still enjoy.
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 06:09:14 PMThis is a bonus. Great study aid, too.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 06:25:21 PMWallpaper"The Future of Classical Music"
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 06:31:08 PMA few dents in the wall will break up the repetitive pattern.
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 12:04:34 PMThe name of a radio 4 program presented by Prokofiev's english grandson. Listen to it. Now, what do you think? Are the Schönbergs and Boulezes to blame for the decline of classical music's popularity - the reason it's come to be "chunked" into a genre, "classical", in the first place? Not at all? Not totally?I think they must accept a great deal of the blame. The grand pronouncements look silly in retrospect and the music hasn't taken[nb]of course some will deny that this fact is meaningful[/nb]. That said, the blame can only be placed so far, since the great shift of the public over to popular music has to have been pre-determined by the new mass political culture, just as the world of art switched over to the mass culture of comic books, animation and populist prints like Wyeth, Rockwell and Hopper. I think you can generalize and say that all art quite ostentatiously reacted against the upcoming mass-culture at the beginning of the 20th Century and that now attempts to reconcile with the dominant art forms (literature, music, art) are varying shades of dismal failure. A symptomatic result of the self-ghettoisation of artists in the modernist years, 100 years down the line. As the documentary says, they now have to fight against being merely museums.iplayer:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q6f00or download:http://www.4shared.com/music/W8lYkrQrba/Who_Killed_Classical_Music_-_W.html
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 06:54:26 PMWho are you quoting?
Quote from: Funcrusher on January 22, 2014, 06:55:17 PMIf there's ever a revival in popularity of orchestral music, it's quite likely to come from rock or electronica fans who get into earlier composers via stuff like Steve Reich or Stockhausen that are referenced by artists they like and have more similarities to them than say Mozart. Look at the popularity of Alex Ross' the Rest Is Noise, by far the most prominent and widely read book relating to orchestral music in donkey's years. The idea that if orchestral music had stuck with tuneful romantic stuff it would have remained popular with the sort of people who buy James Blunt is a fogeyish nonsense in my view.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 07:01:37 PMAll my own work. Why do you think I must be referring to an authority for validation?
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 07:34:18 PMThe programme linked in the OP seems to be trying to state the "new" (conservative, reactionary) rewrite of the history of modern classical music in the 20th century; as was also evident in the TV series "The Sound & The Fury" from last year. Ooh, those scary frightening composers and their extension of expression in music. And then along came some nice pretty, poppy commercial composers to wash it all away. FFS.
Quote from: Smeraldina Rima on January 22, 2014, 07:30:01 PMEntartete Musik documentary here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDxQy-bnSyY and a better one on the degenerate art show here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QE4Ld1mkoM
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 07:42:44 PM"Conservative" would be the defense of these "frightening" composers. Since they've been the orthodox authority figures for so long.
Quote from: Retinend on September 05, 2012, 06:19:53 PMWas Debussy more emotionally stunted than Hindemith or Schoenberg? How about the entirety of musical history until the second decade or so of the 20th Century? Were they all intellectual, emotional children? Why didn't the 18th Century have any atonal movements? Because they were somehow repressed people at odds with their true expressive capabilities?
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 08:36:41 PMThe above from the same person who brought us:
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 07:34:18 PMas was also evident in the TV series "The Sound & The Fury" from last year. Ooh, those scary frightening composers and their extension of expression in music.
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 08:44:57 PMI don't see why I should be ashamed of saying that. It was in the context of a lot of rot being claimed for the expressive powers of austere modernist musicians, alongside the blanket dismissal of alternate traditions, which most people would consider more expressive in the conventional meaning of the word.
Quote from: Don_Preston on January 22, 2014, 08:52:38 PMI don't think that was their agenda at all. They wouldn't have devoted three hours of scheduling, as well as all the surrounding concert footage if they were trying to denigrate it.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 08:56:58 PMThere was no "rot" spoken, except by yourself; indeed the problem was that you demanded music to fit within the limits you had defined and that all else was a waste of time. My position was that modern composers had extended the range of expression available, which seemed to confuse you as you've indicated once again above.
QuoteHe became disillusioned with fascism and repeatedly defied the Italian dictator after the latter's ascent to power in 1922. He refused to display Mussolini's photograph or conduct the Fascist anthem Giovinezza at La Scala. He raged to a friend, "If I were capable of killing a man, I would kill Mussolini."At a memorial concert for Italian composer Giuseppe Martucci on May 14, 1931 at the Teatro Comunale in Bologna, he was ordered to begin by playing Giovinezza, but he refused, even though the fascist foreign minister Galeazzo Ciano was in the audience. Afterwards he was, in his own words, "attacked, injured and repeatedly hit in the face" by a group of blackshirts. Mussolini, incensed by the conductor's refusal, had his phone tapped, placed him under constant surveillance and confiscated his passport. The passport was returned only after a world outcry over Toscanini's treatment. On the outbreak of WWII, Toscanini left Italy. He returned seven years later to conduct a concert at the restored La Scala Opera House, which was destroyed during the war.
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 07:08:20 PMHow do I look at its popularity? I'm aware it sold a few copies to hipsters in Rough Trade who want to say they totally understand where John Cage was coming from, but get real. That book was no bestseller. [nb]less than 5000 readers on Goodreads, about as much as an obscure Nick Hornby novel[/nb]
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