The Travails of Labour - The Cat Came Back Prrrrrrr

[iamcoop]

The moral Mason

[Buelligan]

With Paul Assbag.



We should pitch it.

[BlodwynPig]

Seen loads of those lads in research sand-pits, Teams break-out rooms, agile sprints. They are present, but they're 'not there'.

[iamcoop]

Love to have a beer with Paul. Can someone sort out a "Dining across the divide" opportunity for me and Paul.

"It turns out we actually had more in common than what divides us - I'm also suspicious of the black community, and I'd also been up all night crying as well"

[Johnny Yesno]

Id say Giles Fraser is the most high-profile of all those, and quite a different path. All over Thought for the Day and the Guardian as the right-on lefty vicar who stood with Occupy, then married an Israeli in 2016 and went bonkers for Brexit. Now he only really writes for UnHerd, although hes still on The Moral Maze (which really has no business still existing, as I noted Melanie Phillips is a regular).

He was always a Zionist, although it blew up into arguably rather odd philosemitism and relentless apologism for IDF atrocity when he remarried.

He used to do that Loose Cannon column in the Graun and for every few right on articles he wrote, there was one or two quite reactionary ones.

[superthunderstingcar]

and that cunt vicar who pops up in the papers every so often defending whatever atrocity Israel has committed this week.

Pardon my naivety, but is the joke here that this is referring to the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Fuck it, post.

[idunnosomename]

He used to do that Loose Cannon column in the Graun and for every few right on articles he wrote, there was one or two quite reactionary ones.

oh yeah he was never remotely left-wing at all, don't get me wrong. Just that he lost the kudos of being cosy left-wing when he became outwardly belligerent towards the remain camp.



anyway he's nowhere near as comical as Paul Mason, even if he is bald and has funny ears.

[Blinder Data]

paul mason clearly a boob but he was right to call out that audience member the other night. she was using antisemitic tropes and has been more much obvious in the past:
https://twitter.com/Steve_Cooke/status/1772682945356009853

[monkfromhavana]

You can criticise Zionism, which is all that those tweets show. Starmer and Lammy et all take money from Zionists (some of who are Jewish).

[Steve Faeces]

Considering that a prominent Labour NEC member works for a pro-Israel pressure group and that 78 (I think) Labour MPs are listed as organisers or active supporters of Labour Friends of Israel (that's about 40 per cent of the PLP) I think there is a reasonable conversation to be had about the outsized focus and presence of another country in the function of the British Labour party. That this country is a Jewish state is neither here nor there.

Whether this construes "the fact that so many in the Labour party are supported and funded by Israel" is up for debate but contextually it's not an unreasonable assumption to make from the level of recorded support for Israel in the PLP and that one of LFI's main activities is taking Labour MPs on "fact finding" missions to Israel which are covered by donations and the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So are Labour MPs supported and funded by Israel? Yes in some cases emphatically so.

Saying that Keir Starmer has "Israeli sponsors" is quite an odd turn of phrase and potentially inaccurate but it's far from Antisemitic. The trope is about control and specifically secretive control (the puppet master's strings aren't meant to be visible) and that just isn't the case here. A sponsor offers payment in return for exposure or service. I don't think it's functionally the same as the puppet master/octopus etc trope that is used.

[Buelligan]

paul mason clearly a boob but he was right to call out that audience member the other night. she was using antisemitic tropes and has been more much obvious in the past:
https://twitter.com/Steve_Cooke/status/1772682945356009853

Mason, at that event, clearly conflated Jews and Jewishness with Israel.  He made an attempt to smear the audience member as an antisemite in public.  It's not the mission of British MPs to stir division and hatred, we don't need that, that was exactly what he was doing - to advance his own candidature.  What a terrible self-serving cunt.

[dontpaintyourteeth]

orson welles voice: ahh the false antisemitism claims

[Funcrusher]

Saying that Keir Starmer has "Israeli sponsors" is quite an odd turn of phrase

That guy's comments are clumsy and ill advised, and that's being charitable.

Jeremy Corbyn was outed and obliterated through the media because of Keir Starmer and his Israeli sponsors and the fact that so many in the Labour Party are supported and funded by Israel. How can anyone even consider voting Labour, they don't stand for the people. The only hope that we have and why I'm here supporting Emma is because she's local she would have stood for Labour again but Starmer and his Israeli body didn't want her standing

I mean really, if you told me this person was some kind of plant I could easily believe it. 'Israeli sponsors','Israeli body', you're just handing it to Mason and the Starmerites on a plate. Without doubt he Labour right formed a marriage of convenience with the UK Israel lobby to hound Corbyn out because one hated his stance on Palestine and the other hated his opposition to neo-liberalism. This also ensures Labour will do nothing to help the Palestians, which is an issue in itself. But Starmer is bought and paid for by many interests, including the Israel lobby, and to only mention 'Israeli sponsors' as the reason why Labour don't 'stand for the people' just hands Mason and co a win on a plate by appearing to push the Israel as sole puppetmaster trope.

[Buelligan]

Just saw this included in a Canary article -

Paul Mason lied.

He is willing to defame ordinary people to get media slots, and ideally, a constituency.

We simply don't need people like this in politics (or journalism for that matter). If you speak at an event with him he could lie about you too.

https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1772590919121850488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1772590919121850488%7Ctwgr%5Ee5b8dbe0a5c3ef6346e7fab326f83d49acf754e0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecanary.co%2Fopinion%2F2024%2F03%2F26%2Fpaul-mason-antisemitism%2F

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2024/03/26/paul-mason-antisemitism/

[Steve Faeces]

I don't particularly see what's wrong with saying Starmer wouldn't want Emma Dent Coad standing because of her pro-Palestine views and that a pro-Palestine politician may face pressure from a media and a Labour party that are largely sympathetic to Israel. I don't think those are even that contentious suggestions.

"Israeli body" is highly likely to just be a slip of the tongue. I can't think of any usage of body in that way that would make sense.

Mason thinks he's found the smoking gun or whatever but really he's just wagging his finger at someone who might have chosen their words more carefully. Difficult to do when confronted with such an emotive topic as the invasion of Gaza. I haven't looked at their other tweets that ex-AWL member and philosemitic  weirdo Steve Cooke has dug up, but neither had Mason when he made his first post on the meeting.

[Blinder Data]

You can criticise Zionism, which is all that those tweets show.

"Zionist agent"
"Zionist protecting Zionist financial interests"
"We have no issues with Judaist jews"
...plus comparing israel with nazi germany

Saying that Keir Starmer has "Israeli sponsors" is quite an odd turn of phrase and potentially inaccurate but it's far from Antisemitic. The trope is about control and specifically secretive control (the puppet master's strings aren't meant to be visible) and that just isn't the case here. A sponsor offers payment in return for exposure or service. I don't think it's functionally the same as the puppet master/octopus etc trope that is used.

there are quite a few antisemitic tropes about jews controlling people through use of money, to put it mildly.

Just saw this included in a Canary article -

https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1772590919121850488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1772590919121850488%7Ctwgr%5Ee5b8dbe0a5c3ef6346e7fab326f83d49acf754e0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecanary.co%2Fopinion%2F2024%2F03%2F26%2Fpaul-mason-antisemitism%2F

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2024/03/26/paul-mason-antisemitism/

there really isn't much difference. paul mason did not repeat word for word what the person said and he was stupid to suggest so by using speech marks, but his summary is mostly accurate

[Steve Faeces]

there are quite a few antisemitic tropes about jews controlling people through use of money, to put it mildly.

But none are in play here and nobody has mentioned "Jews".

[Buelligan]

there really isn't much difference. paul mason did not repeat word for word what the person said and he was stupid to suggest so by using speech marks, but his summary is mostly accurate

Mostly accurate is only good enough when it's good enough from both sides of a discussion.

[TrenterPercenter]

"Zionist agent"
"Zionist protecting Zionist financial interests"
"We have no issues with Judaist jews"
...plus comparing israel with nazi germany

there are quite a few antisemitic tropes about jews controlling people through use of money, to put it mildly.

there really isn't much difference. paul mason did not repeat word for word what the person said and he was stupid to suggest so by using speech marks, but his summary is mostly accurate

You are of course right,  but best of luck trying to convince some people here the usuals on left-twitter have spoken and they can do nothing else but bow their heads and shuffle along to their sermons.  Fair play for sticking your neck out though.

[Buelligan]

"Zionist agent"
"Zionist protecting Zionist financial interests"
"We have no issues with Judaist jews"
...plus comparing israel with nazi germany

Also, bit unclear what the issues are here - could you be clearer?

[selectivememory]

I doubt anyone is saying it's antisemitic to compare Israel and Nazi Germany unless they're looking to downplay Israel's crimes or completely shut down all criticism of the country. They're absolutely legitimate comparisons to make. I tend to think the people who say you can't compare them are the antisemites, because they're the ones who are conflating Judaism and Zionism.  I would never do such a thing.

[Johnny Yesno]

The mostly accurate journalist.

[Buelligan]

And now over to our correspondent, Paul Assbag, with a summary, some of which is accurate.  Paul...

[BlodwynPig]

The old false anti-semitic pearl clutching is back to thrust Paul Mason into power. 👏

[Buelligan]

Emma Dent-Coad wrote a piece on the meeting (which included her report on the exchange) for the Morning Star -

AFTER A round of speeches and some good questions from the audience, a three-minute exchange between one audience member and Mason changed the atmosphere from one of courteous disagreement into something else entirely.

The audience member raised the issue of Israel lobby donations to various Labour MPs, including many frontbenchers, and to the party itself, all of which are on public record. Somehow this triggered Mason, who had until then engaged calmly with the issues, into a full-on tirade, misquoting her and accusing her of anti-semitism.

What she had done was expressed anti-zionist views. Following the exoneration of Prof David Miller, anti-zionism is now a protected characteristic.

This blew up on Twitter/X overnight.

Language is important. When I took the Jewish Labour Movement's anti-semitism training this was underlined. Conflating the Israeli state with Judaism or with "all Jews" is the precise definition of anti-semitism.

The question from the audience member was precise and did not conflate the two. In the current febrile atmosphere, where the Israeli state is refuting the United Nations vote for an immediate ceasefire, it is our responsibility to point the finger at the perpetrators of genocide.

The Israeli state has embraced a particular political ideology, an ideology that we will never conflate with the Jewish faith. We know where the perpetuation of zionism through settler colonialism has led, we see its endgame now in Gaza.

I and many others refuse to be bullied into silence.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/it-worth-voting-labour

[jamiefairlie]

"anti-zionism is now a protected characteristic."

Is it? Is it specifically listed as such in the great master list that rules us all?

People like this cannot talk clearly.

[BlodwynPig]

"anti-zionism is now a protected characteristic."

Is it? Is it specifically listed as such in the great master list that rules us all?

People like this cannot talk clearly.

It is:

https://www.irwinmitchell.com/news-and-insights/expert-comment/post/102j1vy/anti-zionist-beliefs-are-protected-under-the-equality-act-2010

[Buelligan]

"anti-zionism is now a protected characteristic."

Is it? Is it specifically listed as such in the great master list that rules us all?

People like this cannot talk clearly.

I think it's to do with law.  Ever talked to a lawyer at all?

In this situation, I believe she's waving back with the same stick - try and fuck with me by weaponising protected characteristics, is it, mate?  That is what I take from her comment, a subtle fuck off friend, wave that shit-stick at someone else, why don't you?

[shoulders]

It's always important to bear in mind that Ethnofascists are by their very nature ultra-aggressive psychopaths and yielding to them for fear of receiving the scary label is the worst thing that could possibly happen for humanity.

Only people with steadfast confidence in their reasoning and personal values can withstand the burning treatment they subject people to.

[Buelligan]

Bassem Youssef talks about this towards the end of the interview.  As always, patient, full of wit and humour.