Anachronistic Racist Language in 2021

[momatt]

I got told of a couple of times in America for using the term "Oriental".

What's wrong with this phrase?  Sorry if I'm being thick.

In America it's more to do with the fact that the word is used to describe objects from the Orient (Oriental rug, etc) so it's seen as insulting to apply it to people. Afaik it's never actually been used as a "racist term", and some Asian-Americans (particularly older) don't have a problem with it, but regardless, if people (groups or individuals) find a term offensive for whatever reason (aside from things which describe their particular awful behaviour), don't use it.

Ah, I guess this makes sense.  I thought it'd be something more solidly offensive than that, but I'll keep it in mind.

[Zetetic]

ever heard of 'orientalism'?

If you had, wouldn't that lead you down the route of believing that "oriental" is basically fine as a term? There aren't many racial slurs that are transformed into an acceptable term of art by sticking "-ism" on the end.

(To clear: that this is the case for "oriental" shows that it has relatively weird properties - not that it's fine to call someone it.)

[El Unicornio, mang]

What's wrong with this phrase?  Sorry if I'm being thick.
Ah, I guess this makes sense.  I thought it'd be something more solidly offensive than that, but I'll keep it in mind.

I think also there's a difference between here and the US because here "Asian" is applied to people from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, whereas over there they're just lumped together as "Indian", and Asian exclusively refers to people from east Asia.

[chveik]

If you had, wouldn't that lead you down the route of believing that "oriental" is basically fine as a term? There aren't many racial slurs that are transformed into an acceptable term of art by sticking "-ism" on the end.

(To clear: that this is the case for "oriental" shows that it has relatively weird properties - not that it's fine to call someone it.)

yeah fair enough. i suppose my point was that calling someone oriental carries all the weight of the type of Othering you would find in paintings, travel diaries and the like.

[JaDanketies]

For quite a long time now I've decided that the best way to describe people from the Asian subcontinent, for instance if one of them mugs you and you need to give a description to the police, is "South Asian" or "East Asian". 'Indian' is insulting to Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and other brown-skinned people, 'Pakistani' just sounds racist altogether tbh, and 'Chinese' is offensive to Japanese people, Koreans, etc. 'Indian-looking' or 'Chinese-looking' would sound really awful. 'Asian' is too non-specific. It's a bit continent.

There was that David Walliams sketch in Little Britain where he was desperate to avoid using any language that might identify someone as a minority.

[JesusAndYourBush]

In a couple of old films (1940's) I've heard a Chinese person described as "A Chinee".  Is that racist?  It's probably derived from the speaker not having seen the word written down and assuming that the word Chinese was a plural.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Chinee reckon.

[Dayraven]

More likely because sticking -ee on the ends of words was a stereotypical bit of broken English for Chinese people.

[buttgammon]

Mf Doom did it (knowingly, I think) on the Madvillainy track 'Money Folder'.

[mothman]

At work we're now being encouraged not to refer to whitelists (for good things) and blacklists (for bad ones). And I do rather roll my eyes at it, but then I'm not the one it offends. All I can do is try to be aware and considerate, because otherwise it's a slippery slope (which in itself sounds like something pejorative!) towards "Well, it's political correctness gorn mad, innit?"

[Zetetic]

At work we're now being encouraged not to refer to whitelists (for good things) and blacklists (for bad ones).

Although your faulty glosses kind of illustrate why they're actually not great terms, and terms that more clearly convey what's actually meant ("allowlist" and "blocklist") are preferable on that basis anyway.

[flotemysost]

For quite a long time now I've decided that the best way to describe people from the Asian subcontinent, for instance if one of them mugs you and you need to give a description to the police, is "South Asian" or "East Asian". 'Indian' is insulting to Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and other brown-skinned people, 'Pakistani' just sounds racist altogether tbh, and 'Chinese' is offensive to Japanese people, Koreans, etc. 'Indian-looking' or 'Chinese-looking' would sound really awful. 'Asian' is too non-specific. It's a bit continent.

There was that David Walliams sketch in Little Britain where he was desperate to avoid using any language that might identify someone as a minority.

Yeah, it still bemuses me a bit that on the "ethnic background" bit on most .gov and NHS forms, there's no further breakdown in the mixed race options than "Asian", so someone who's (for example) half Irish, half Japanese would tick the same box as someone who's half Indian, half English. Also IIRC, for people of East Asian descent there's only "Chinese" and then "Other". And of course as you say it's a massive continent, people from parts of Russia/Armenia/loads of other places could reasonably consider themselves to be from Asia.

There's been plenty written about the shortcomings of these diversity forms elsewhere, in fact there's a workplace inclusivity consultancy (I've done one of their courses and it was very good) called The Other Box, named after this conundrum.

Lots of people of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan descent identify using the term "brown", and I've seen a couple of instances in recent years of East Asian people arguing for the reclamation of the term "yellow", although obviously that's got an incredibly loaded history and isn't a term I imagine I'd ever feel OK using myself.

[Sherringford Hovis]

So how acceptable is Ying Tong Iddle I Po right now?

Asking for the Prince of Wales.

[Chedney Honks]

Chinese people in China would very commonly refer to themselves as 'yellow' in plain speech. I once explained it to my Chinese mate and she laughed. "White people are white. Black people are black. Yellow people are yellow." Very matter of fact. Maybe a simplistic perspective but she meant no harm. Your eyes are too big. Your nose is too big. You are fat. Your clothes are dirty. Your feet smell. Cheers, mate. I can't wait to go back. Anal swab and Sinovax any minute.

[zomgmouse]

Phrases like "long time no see" are essentially making fun of broken English

[steve98]

So how acceptable is Ying Tong Iddle I Po right now?

Asking for the Prince of Wales.

Not acceptable AT ALL... Christ, it's fucking terrible; I'd go mad if I had to listen to that shit a 2nd time. :( :(

[Paul Calf]

Probably turn your volume down if in polite company / the workplace:

https://youtu.be/zAWn4FO1MOw?t=26

[Paul Calf]

The comments are exactly what you'd expect.

[zomgmouse]

So how acceptable is Ying Tong Iddle I Po right now?

Asking for the Prince of Wales.

Pretty sure this is entirely nonsense words, like "In the Ning Nang Nong". Wikipedia has its origin as coming from a surname misheard as "Edgington".

EDIT: Never thought I'd defend something Spike Milligan did as not being racist. But there you go.

[Gulftastic]

In a couple of old films (1940's) I've heard a Chinese person described as "A Chinee".  Is that racist?  It's probably derived from the speaker not having seen the word written down and assuming that the word Chinese was a plural.

Back To The Future 3 has one of the old cowpokes in the bar reckoning that Marty must have taken his outfit off a dead Chinee

[timebug]

As 'Whitelist' and 'Blacklist' were mentioned, it has always annoyed our gang of old scrotes,that the thing on the wall of a classroom, in our day was a 'blackboard'. Now it is a 'chalkboard' (if not actually a 'whiteboard' written on with markers rather than chalk!)
Our argument is that the board was painted Black; nothing to do with racism in any form, 'black' was a colour,which used to be found in those small 'paintboxes' that were around, usually made of tin with a dozen colour blocks glued inside! 'Pitch Black' was a term, which we took to mean the colour of pitch,the tarry stuff that is used on roofs etc.
The problem in my mind, is not so much that innapropriate terms are used, but that the pC brigade are far too sensitive at taking offence,where as a rule, none is intended.

[Zetetic]

There has been no major reduction in the use of the term "blackboard" or increase in the use of the term "chalkboard" in print since the late '60s (despite the increase in the use of the term "whiteboard").[nb]Ooooooh, hauntology, spoooky![/nb]

There's a major "e-learning" system (and company) called "Blackboard".

[Paul Calf]

As 'Whitelist' and 'Blacklist' were mentioned, it has always annoyed our gang of old scrotes,that the thing on the wall of a classroom, in our day was a 'blackboard'. Now it is a 'chalkboard' (if not actually a 'whiteboard' written on with markers rather than chalk!)
Our argument is that the board was painted Black; nothing to do with racism in any form, 'black' was a colour,which used to be found in those small 'paintboxes' that were around, usually made of tin with a dozen colour blocks glued inside! 'Pitch Black' was a term, which we took to mean the colour of pitch,the tarry stuff that is used on roofs etc.
The problem in my mind, is not so much that innapropriate terms are used, but that the pC brigade are far too sensitive at taking offence,where as a rule, none is intended.

Wait until you find out what they've done with Christmas!

[thenoise]

Still trying to persuade my mum not to say 'half-caste'.

It's a weird one, since what do castes have to do with it? "Mixed race" is not only polite but accurate.

[dissolute ocelot]

Phrases like "long time no see" are essentially making fun of broken English

There's some debate over whether it was originally used in cowboy/western stories (by a Native American character) or as stereotypical Chinese, but definitely seems to be racist.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/09/288300303/who-first-said-long-time-no-see-and-in-which-language

[Buelligan]

The blackboard thing's weird for obvious reasons[nb]IMO, it is just specifying the colour and nothing at all else.[/nb].  I don't think I ever heard it called that at school, people referred to the board - which works better because, as has been said, they're not exclusively black.  I have no problem with blackboards but do think, if people need to include the black bit then they should also probably include information on what it's made from, its size, whether it's free-standing or wall-hung, is it ruled or plain?  Loads of stuff.  My point being, don't get too alarmed about not being able to call a dark sludge green board, black.

[steve98]

Still trying to persuade my mum not to say 'half-caste'.

It's a weird one, since what do castes have to do with it? "Mixed race" is not only polite but accurate.

Mixed race always sounds a bit 2nd best to me.
Like a hodge-podge.

[bgmnts]

If a board is black, it's a blackboard.

My level of wokeness doesn't hit those heights.

[El Unicornio, mang]

My sister was in Sainsbury's and asked an assistant where the "black bags" were and she replied in hushed tones "sshhh you can't say that, we have to refer to them as refuse sacks now". I always thought black bag was just a slang term for them anyway, and that this assistant might be purposefully making a big deal about something rather than just saying "over there".

I think I mentioned this in the football thread, but I was a bit perturbed when I got this in a set (bearing in mind that fantasy paints come in colours with names like witch pink and goblin green) but realised it's just the Spanish translation of the word above the English

[Sebastian Cobb]

At work we're now being encouraged not to refer to whitelists (for good things) and blacklists (for bad ones). And I do rather roll my eyes at it, but then I'm not the one it offends. All I can do is try to be aware and considerate, because otherwise it's a slippery slope (which in itself sounds like something pejorative!) towards "Well, it's political correctness gorn mad, innit?"

Great that companies like Gitlab are PC enough to rename the main branch in a software repository 'main' rather than 'master', but still quite happy to accept lucrative contracts to help write software that helps put detained immigrants in cages. Nice one guys!