Your Music Shitlist

[Backstage With Slowdive]

According to the documentaries on BBC4 last night, Madness heralded in the age of the video.

The Wings Of A Dove video was one of the greatest and funniest musical things of the 80s.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

Don't forget they did an excellent cover of Scritti's Sweetest Girl as well.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Is it too late to add Scritti Politti to my musical shitlist?

Now that Madness have settled into their status as an avuncular oldies-band, they're good fun live.  I saw them at Benicassim a couple of years back and they were the highlight of the weekend.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

Is it too late to add Scritti Politti to my musical shitlist?

Now you're just turning into [banned troll]. No one on Earth dislikes The Scritt.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Green Gartside is a spunktrumpet.

[olafr]

But even zaniness-haters must concede that Madness did the zaniness thing really well?

And that's before you get into the whole 'Why must 'zany' be a pejorative term?' thing.

I don't mind silliness or whimsy, but, to me, 'zany' has a brash, charmless and maybe even contrived/try too hard quality about it.

I must say I prefer the first album, but don't like anything they did after. Same with the Specials

As song-writers, I don't think Madness really reached their stride until sometime during their 2nd album; in fact, there's very few real songs on that 1st album. Ultimately, they stand the test of time much better as a singles band than an albums band.

I agree with the Specials comment though, the 1st was superior to the 2nd which was far superior to the joyless 'In the Studio'. To be honest, I never think of anything other the first couple of albums as being Specials albums anyway.

[olafr]

Green Gartside is a spunktrumpet.

I used to think similar until I read 'Rip It Up and Start Again'. Reynolds' book was a bit of an eye-opener into the world of Green Gartside.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I used to think similar until I read 'Rip It Up and Start Again'. Reynolds' book was a bit of an eye-opener into the world of Green Gartside.

Doesn't he claim The Word Girl is influenced by Derrida or something?

[CaledonianGonzo]

I don't really think that - I was merely trying to recreate a lost moment in time (though I still dislike Scritti Politti).

I do dislike this, though, which the passing of the benevolent years had thankfully wiped from my memory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNImk4TtKWk

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I don't mind silliness or whimsy, but, to me, 'zany' has a brash, charmless and maybe even contrived/try too hard quality about it.

Not true of Madness though, surely? Even with something like Baggy Trousers. Or Driving In My Car, which sounds like it's written in a time signature from space. [/quantick]

[daisy11]

Bowie wasn't a great innovator. He was great at being a chameleon, like Madonna, who saw what was cool in the margins and turned it into accessible pop music. His relationship with Iggy Pop was one of hero-worship. Bowie wanted to be Iggy who had natural cool, raw songwriting talent and a real rock-star lifestyle.And yes, Iggy did take the piss a bit because of this.

I read it was Lou Reed and John Cale he hero-worshipped.  Madonna = Bowie? oh er, very controversial or is it from Notbbc webshite (no spelling error).  Iggy didn't take the piss as he was too bombed and an addict, hardly intentional behaviour.
Yeah, I'm in an argumentative mood as it's been one of those days!
Back on topic:

[CaledonianGonzo]

Doesn't he claim The Word Girl is influenced by Derrida or something?

Ciaran seemed to think it was Roland Barthes' Lover's Discourse:

http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=11899.msg605937#msg605937

I suspect it was probably more influenced by the 'Pop-Reggae' demo button on Green Gartside's Casio, though.

[olafr]

Doesn't he claim The Word Girl is influenced by Derrida or something?

I don't know about that, but Gartside was fan enough that they did a song called 'Jacques Derrida'.

The book was a massive eye-opener as, at the time, I wrote them off as pop-pap but it seems they were better placed between Gang of Four and Crass than Culture Club - which I thought in the early/mid-80s.

[The Boston Crab]

Wouldn't do anybody any good.

[NoSleep]

I don't know about that, but Gartside was fan enough that they did a song called 'Jacques Derrida'.

The book was a massive eye-opener as, at the time, I wrote them off as pop-pap but it seems they were better placed between Gang of Four and Crass than Culture Club - which I thought in the early/mid-80s.

I've heard that Green Gartside formed Scritti Politti as a reaction to hearing that agit-proggers Henry Cow had called it a day. His original plan was to invite individual members of Henry Cow to join Scritti until they were all in back together.
He actually did get Fred Maher in the band, who had played with former Cow member Fred Frith, both in Material & Massacre.

Whatever the truth of the above is, I detect the influence of Robert Wyatt (who has performed with Henry Cow), and I believe Mr Wyatt appears as keyboard player on Scritti's version of The Sweetest Girl.
The "Early" CD is well worth a listen with its mix of post-punk, reggae & aforementioned influences.

[Johnny Yesno]

former Cow member Fred Frith

Fred Frith was in Henry Cow? I must check them out.

[olafr]

I've heard that Green Gartside formed Scritti Politti as a reaction to hearing that agit-proggers Henry Cow had called it a day. His original plan was to invite individual members of Henry Cow to join Scritti until they were all in back together.
He actually did get Fred Maher in the band, who had played with former Cow member Fred Frith, both in Material & Massacre.

I don't know about that, it's not mentioned in Reynolds book. Scritti Politti was set up, initially, to be a shifting collective though so maybe it was part of that.

Whatever the truth of the above is, I detect the influence of Robert Wyatt (who has performed with Henry Cow), and I believe Mr Wyatt appears as keyboard player on Scritti's version of The Sweetest Girl.

Wyatt was regularly 'bigged-up' by Gartside as an influence.

[Famous Mortimer]

Tracks like House of Fun or Embarrassment or Michael Caine, though - on what planet aren't they fantastic?

I know you can replace the above titles with Radiohead ones, but humour me - what exatly is irksome about them? 

You've got to let me know what you're getting at here. It seems you've abandoned similar attempts at "everyone must appreciate Bowie" and have moved on to Madness. They're just alright to me, I neither love them nor particularly hate them. What's the angle here Lalla?

[olafr]

Not true of Madness though, surely? Even with something like Baggy Trousers. Or Driving In My Car, [/quantick]

Particularly Driving in My Car.

which sounds like it's written in a time signature from space.

Eh? I've not got it to hand, but singing the tune to myself suggests a fairly pedestrian common time.

[The Boston Crab]

You can hear how much of a giggle they had while making it though, surely?

[Clone Army]

Oh ffs, how many pages of "not getting" artists like there's some objective musical information deficit is this now? Five?

[The Boston Crab]

Well, the thread had taken an interesting turn until Lalla pulled the old 'Youth Culture Exhibit A - I don't understand what I'm supposed to like' in his faux-naif shit-stirring way, when you know all he's desperate to do is bring the subject round to a comparison with something he likes so he can once more attempt to describe why his tastes are, actually, you know, better, surely, before floundering and giving an utter bollock of a 'reason'.

"You can hear the glint in his eye!"

[olafr]

You can hear how much of a giggle they had while making it though, surely?

Yes*, but that could be part of the problem for me. I mentioned 'intrusive' before as I think there's an element of what they do that's like being around people desperate to jolly you up by with party hats and those blowy extending paper things. But more blowing them right in your face and just generally winding you up.

Don't get me wrong it's not as if I hate them or anything. I saw them play a couple of times before they broke up the first time around and are one of the few bands that I've actually travelled any real distance to go and see in the past. It's not like I dream I've got my foot across their collective windpipe just I much prefer their downbeat, thoughtful material and don't think they really found their songwriting voice until the 2nd album.


*although I've heard that they didn't actually get on that well a lot of the time.

[Old Thrashbarg]

"You just don't get them..."  Tool fans are the worst for it.  I get all the bullshit surrounding their music structure, I just don't care because knowing they are that fucking pretentious doesn't make it worth my time listening to them.

So is it the pretension or the music (or both) that you don't like?

[Backstage With Slowdive]

Green Gartside is a spunktrumpet.

And he liked London bands, the cunt, don't forget to put that in. And he has a haircut.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

So is it the pretension or the music (or both) that you don't like?

I don't like the fact that I saw one of them wearing a swastika t-shirt in a band photo, and that's always been sufficient for me not to bother reading the article or hearing the music. And also that Stewart Lee once cited them as an example of people who waffle about how Bill Hicks was the fackin' man.

[threeism]

What you said about the two separate Bach pieces, and not knowing which one you were, in a way, supposed to like more than the other, is interesting. You like the one you like the most, and that's really it. So what if one is more interestingly composed than the other, it doesn't help you decide which one your brain likes the best.
This isn't a "right, lads?" moment (as you've accused me of elsewhere), this is...well, I'm still interested in reading what people (including yourself) have to write about music you don't like - but at a point you've got to go "fair enough, there's no point me battering myself over the head with this album any more, I just don't like it".

This is a bit simplistic. If one understands the formal, compositional nature of classical music such as Bach's, a strong intellectual element must come into play. If one doesn't, there's bound to be a feeling of something missing in one's appreciation of the music.
I don't think this applies very much to 'pop' music though, because the formal, structural elements are less important.

[samadriel]

I don't like the fact that I saw one of them wearing a swastika t-shirt in a band photo, and that's always been sufficient for me not to bother reading the article or hearing the music. And also that Stewart Lee once cited them as an example of people who waffle about how Bill Hicks was the fackin' man.

I seriously can't imagine any member of Tool wearing a swastika shirt, even 'ironically', so damned if I know what's up there (I suppose Maynard's a bit of an Eastern mysticism kook, so some form of 'right-way-round' swastika on his shirt isn't outside the realms of possibility, but I digress), but as for Hicks, Lee can go fuck himself if he's taking issue with Tool over BH -- the band admired and eventually befriended Hicks in life; why in the fuck should they not pay tribute to him when he died?  And if their 'endorsement' of Hicks introduced a few dimmer bulbs to his work, then big fucking deal.

I don't even particularly like Tool these days (A Perfect Circle thoroughly put me 'off' Maynard, and the rest of the band didn't really bring me back with '10 000 Days'), but I'd be interested to read what Lee actually said, as it sounds very out of order.

[The Boston Crab]

Yes*, but that could be part of the problem for me.

It's ok, I was taking the piss.

[Famous Mortimer]

This is a bit simplistic. If one understands the formal, compositional nature of classical music such as Bach's, a strong intellectual element must come into play. If one doesn't, there's bound to be a feeling of something missing in one's appreciation of the music.
I don't think this applies very much to 'pop' music though, because the formal, structural elements are less important.

Nah, I'm not having this. You most definitely don't need to understand anything formal and compositional to appreciate Bach, or any classical music. It's the same attitude that annoyed me during a BBC production of "Twelfth Night" a few years ago, when at the halftime break, (I think) David Starkey was berating the audience for not laughing at the right bits. Fuck him.

Okay, if what you say is the case why do classical music afficionados like different things, or different pieces by the same man? Are you saying classical music should be approached objectively (well avoided on the subject of pop music, by the way, because you know your argument would fall flat there).