Reading The Bible (and other scripture)

[touchingcloth]

It's not that bad. It probably won't get used to persecute a minority group for a couple of millennia resulting in their near annihilation from Europe.

[touchingcloth]

There are other bits in the NT which go against the gentle hippie view of Jesus. Matthew 10:

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Violent narcissist.

[Clatty McCutcheon]

My favourite response to reading the Bible is Randolph Churchill slapping his side and chortling 'God, isn't God a shit!'. Easily the best thing associated in any way with Churchill.

In the hope of keeping him quiet for a few hours Freddy & I have bet Randolph [Churchill, son of Winston] 20 pounds that he cannot read the whole Bible in a fortnight. It would have been worth it at the price. Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud 'I say, I bet you didn't know this came in the Bible "bring down my grey hairs in sorrow to the grave"' or merely slapping his side & chortling 'God, isn't God a shit!'

Extract, letter from Evelyn Waugh to Nancy Mitford, 12 November 1944

[JaDanketies]

The Book of Mormon is one of the least-readable things ever. Trying to read that revealed to me how it might be hard to find something spiritually inspiring in these dusty old tomes. Or at least that people don't become Mormon because they read the Book of Mormon and thought it was clearly inspired by God. It made me feel like I'm never going to be part of an organised religion unless something really bad happens to me and I am desperate for a supportive community. It definitely made me think that community is why people are part of organised religions.

I've heard Muslims say that the Qu'ran is so beautiful that it could only have been written by God. Perhaps this isn't obvious in the English translation. But you only ever hear Muslims say how beautiful the Qu'ran is. I assume that they would find it about as boring and obviously-false as the English translation /  the  Book of Mormon is if they weren't part of a community that talks about how great the book is.

2.5% of the words in the Book of Mormon are the phrase "so it came to pass." You can open a random page and almost every paragraph will start with that phrase.

The Qu'ran on the other hand was unrelentingly "Here is a rule. Those who follow this rule are awesome, Allah loves them. Those who disobey this rule, the hellfire is their destination. Here is another rule. Those who follow this rule..."

So in fairness, in my experience, the New Testament isn't half bad in comparison.

[checkoutgirl]

Nah it tries to teach you ways to stay content in a way that is not dependant on other people. It's possible but it takes a lot of work.

Precisely. Staying content without depending on other people doesn't sound very human to me. It might make you happier but since when has that been particularly human?

[touchingcloth]

Precisely. Staying content without depending on other people doesn't sound very human to me. It might make you happier but since when has that been particularly human?

My partner went on a silent retreat a few years back, but hadn't practiced much in the way of mindfulness or meditation before that.

She went on the retreat as a way to deal with her best friend dying very young and unexpectedly, and ended up having a full breakdown while there. She was tended to by one of the Buddhists, who did the Buddhist thing of not freaking out in response to her meltdown, but she said it came across as a bit psychopathic because of that. The calm, semi-interested detachment of a child plucking legs off a spider.

[Shaxberd]

I've heard Muslims say that the Qu'ran is so beautiful that it could only have been written by God. Perhaps this isn't obvious in the English translation. But you only ever hear Muslims say how beautiful the Qu'ran is. I assume that they would find it about as boring and obviously-false as the English translation /  the  Book of Mormon is if they weren't part of a community that talks about how great the book is.

There's probably an element of you have to say it's beautiful because it's your holy book, but I also strongly get the impression that the beauty of the Qu'ran comes from how it sounds read aloud in the original Arabic. It has a natural flow and rhythm to it that inevitably gets lost in translation - compare the audio here to the English version.


I think flow and rhythm is also why I like the KJV best, as a non religious person - it might not be the most accurate translation but it's the one that sounds the best. It's so ingrained in Anglophone culture that anything else doesn't sound Bible-y enough.

[jamiefairlie]

Precisely. Staying content without depending on other people doesn't sound very human to me. It might make you happier but since when has that been particularly human?

I'd say in the absence of any belief in a higher power or purpose that the pursuit of true happiness is the only point in life. What we define as 'human' is only part of our capabilities so why not use as much of them as possible to try for maximum happiness?

In that sense Buddhism and utilitarianism try to achieve the same ends and probably sum up my own personal ethos.

[bgmnts]

My knowledge of Buddhism is limited but I don't think maximum happiness is the goal.

I think the maximum reduction of suffering that is a more preferable outcome.

[jamiefairlie]

My knowledge of Buddhism is limited but I don't think maximum happiness is the goal.

I think the maximum reduction of suffering that is a more preferable outcome.

Well depends on what you mean by happiness. To me when I meditate I get to a state of warm contentment where in the moment I am free from suffering, to me that's happiness.

[JaDanketies]

It has a natural flow and rhythm to it that inevitably gets lost in translation - compare the audio here to the English version.

That does sound like poetry but you go to the middle of a middle chapter and you can hear they saved the best bit for the start. A bit like Moby Dick.

I used to think that hedonism was the meaning of life and maybe I do still a little bit, but now I've reproduced... maybe it'll turn out that humanity could actually do something valuable and meaningful in this dark and uncaring universe other than hit the dopamine receptor over and over again. Perhaps being a part of a society that is developing and maturing and becoming technologically adept will turn out to have been useful. Hopefully.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

That does sound like poetry but you go to the middle of a middle chapter and you can hear they saved the best bit for the start. A bit like Moby Dick.

I used to think that hedonism was the meaning of life and maybe I do still a little bit, but now I've reproduced... maybe it'll turn out that humanity could actually do something valuable and meaningful in this dark and uncaring universe other than hit the dopamine receptor over and over again. Perhaps being a part of a society that is developing and maturing and becoming technologically adept will turn out to have been useful. Hopefully.

we already had art and poetry/song/literature since day one. and ecological behaviour may have existed before agriculture did

i dont think the cave painters putting their handprints on the walls were just hammering dopamine receptors

[bgmnts]

Hedonism? Not for me, Clive.

Virtue all day.

[Mr Vegetables]

In that sense Buddhism and utilitarianism try to achieve the same ends

I mean, maybe if you're a Buddhist already and define maximum utility as achieving your own enlightenment, but otherwise that seems like a hell of a stretch. Even then I'd thought utilitarianism was supposed to be a universal principle, where seeking enlightenment isn't necessarily.

Are they even the same kind of goal? Utilitarianism is "this is how to find out the best way for things to be in the world," and enlightenment is almost a practical way to exist in it. It's like "everyone should have a tasty cake" versus "to keep living in this cruel world, I must eat a tasty cake"— one is a moral statement, the other is a practical reality

[jamiefairlie]

Utilitarianism holds that the most ethical choice is the one that will produce the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

So in both Buddhism and Utilitarianism the 'goal' is to reduce suffering (increase happiness) as much as possible. In that sense they are similar. The methods may be different but the goals are in in essence the same.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Hedonism? Not for me, Clive.

Virtue all day.

Truth squad here.

[jamiefairlie]

That does sound like poetry but you go to the middle of a middle chapter and you can hear they saved the best bit for the start. A bit like Moby Dick.

I used to think that hedonism was the meaning of life and maybe I do still a little bit, but now I've reproduced... maybe it'll turn out that humanity could actually do something valuable and meaningful in this dark and uncaring universe other than hit the dopamine receptor over and over again. Perhaps being a part of a society that is developing and maturing and becoming technologically adept will turn out to have been useful. Hopefully.

"valuable and meaningful" in relation to what though? So much of our language is inherently centered on there being some form of righteous good in the universe, some sort of God figure, that will judge us on how good our lives were.

When you strip that away we're left with the bald fact that there is no value or meaning to our lives other than that we generate internally ourselves. Given that we may as well pursue whatever gives us maximum pleasure and feelings of positivity. My problem with hedonism, beyond a lingering distaste from my catholic upbringing, is that it tends towards short term pleasure over long term contentment, but it's a valid choice

[JaDanketies]

"valuable and meaningful" in relation to what though? So much of our language is inherently centered on there being some form of righteous good in the universe, some sort of God figure, that will judge us on how good our lives were.

It might turn out that at the end of it all, in a thousand billion years this whole thing turns out to have had some wider relevance. Like in The Last Question by Isaac Asimov.  Maybe we'll make more universes, or something humanity ends up making could be described as 'God', for some other lifeform / neo-universe.

It's pretty freaky how much things have progressed in just my lifetime, so if we manage to keep on a similar trajectory for a few billion years, surely we could be Gods.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

if humanity becomes a god-like entity ten millenia in the future, it would still value the sistine chapel and the quran

retrospectively those things may become invested with (some of) the meaning that were intended to have. since a god-like thing would by definitely be free of such such mortal attributes as an asymmetric/unilateral relation to entropy and an exclusive towards-ness in intention. in Nietzsche's words, the ubermensch would learn how to "will backwards"

the next question is if that if they can conceivably be invested with that worth or sense retrospectively, does it actually need to have already happened in order to vindicate the usage of words like "sublime" or "eternal"?

[bgmnts]

We already are gods.

Some sick cunts in China just created an entire monkey out of stem cells or some shit.

Anyway, regarding biblical interpretation; were any ecumenical councils debating anything Christ said? To my knowledge they were all about whether sacramental wine was really Jesus's blood or not, or whether Jesus was actually part god or just a bloke.

As an aside, I do envy cunts who actually pray and get something from holy shit, or whatever being spiritual is. Bit of a bastard that I don't get that, whatever it is.

[jamiefairlie]

We already are gods.

Some sick cunts in China just created an entire monkey out of stem cells or some shit.

Esther McVey

[touchingcloth]

When you strip that away we're left with the bald fact

Hey, I really like buzby.

[RenegadeScrew]

I've read bits of the old and new testament, quran, and a Taoist book but can't remember the name of it. 

The old testament seems like a collection of stories that were already around, one of them in particular is like a cover version of the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Out of the four, it's the one I remember the least. 

I read the new testament (probably King James) from the beginning without getting too far I think.  It's kinda like a mad novel, often not very vague at all.  This is my favourite bit.  If you put yourself in the position of the villagers who returned home to no pigs and were supposed to be happy because the demons were gone, it's quite funny I think.

The quran I found quite poetic or abstract, but I suppose it could've been the translation or bits I read.  It is split into what seemed to me like short poems.  I remember mainly "inmates of the fire" which is quite a nice turn of phrase.  A bit like recent interviews with Naseem Ahmed, it refers to Allah quite a lot.  But without really saying too much.

The Tao book was full of profound sounding one liners.  I thought it was a bit like Bob Dylan's subterranean homesick blues.  Lots of stuff like "watch for plain clothes / you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".  Pretty sure Dylan was influenced by Howl and stuff like that, and that guys like Ginsberg were into the Taoist stuff.

Actually I've read the scientology origin story too.  But not sure that counts as scripture.

[touchingcloth]

The dao that can be spoken is not the eternal dao. Ahhhhhh.

Anyone read Principia Discordia? Tao Te Ching seems like it's the same basic idea, just loads of hand waving aphorisms. Not that I've read more than a few pages of either.

[dontpaintyourteeth]

I've read:
tao te ching
bhagavad gita
be here now by ram dass
a deranged book of bible stories that a jehovah's witness kid gave me when i was in primary school

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Pretty sure Dylan was influenced by Howl and stuff like that, and that guys like Ginsberg were into the Taoist stuff.

isnt one of the theories about Dylan that he absorbed a lot of Jewish oral tradition when he was very, very young and it gave him a knack for coming up with stuff that provoked interpretation?

Actually I've read the scientology origin story too.  But not sure that counts as scripture.

remember finding a lot OT stuff on Clambake.org back in the day when it felt taboo to have any. so of it is mindblowing, the further up you go through scientology 'scripture' (or "technology" as they have it) the more bald-faced and brazen the manipulation is. for several stages you're supposed to unpack the trauma that happens in your personal life. then surprise surprise! its not your current life you should've been focused on, its your past life - you idiot, you absolute clod. then you go through all that and it tells you its not your past life its everyones you have to focus on - whatta maroon. then up and up like that until you get to fairly near the end and its like - the whole idea of past lives is "mocked up" by you, you dumb freak, you should go to therapy or something.

nowadays its not so obscure and you can ever find youtubes of Ron Boy reading the Space Opera and Wall of Fire stuff out to the first time (obtained at "the cost of a BROKEN! BACK!")

[Red82]

Precisely. Staying content without depending on other people doesn't sound very human to me. It might make you happier but since when has that been particularly human?

I really dislike Buddhists. I've never had a good experience with a Buddhist.  And they seem to find me really challenging also.

[RenegadeScrew]

isnt one of the theories about Dylan that he absorbed a lot of Jewish oral tradition when he was very, very young and it gave him a knack for coming up with stuff that provoked interpretation?

That may be true (i certainly wouldn't have noticed as I've no idea about the Jewish oral tradition). I'd say his early greatness is more about the lack of vagueness so it'd be strange that something he had from a young age came out after 5 albums or so.  Early on he's doing storytelling songs like Death of Hattie Carrol or Only a Pawn while guys are kicking about still singing 'we shall not be moved'. 

The Ginsberg/Tao theory is purely my own admittedly, but the video for SHB has Ginsberg with the cards.  I'd say the "poet" songwriters from the 60s were taking inspiration from poetry (and literature) whoever you think they may be, Dylan, Reed, Morrison, etc.

remember finding a lot OT stuff on Clambake.org back in the day when it felt taboo to have any. so of it is mindblowing, the further up you go through scientology 'scripture' (or "technology" as they have it) the more bald-faced and brazen the manipulation is. for several stages you're supposed to unpack the trauma that happens in your personal life. then surprise surprise! its not your current life you should've been focused on, its your past life - you idiot, you absolute clod. then you go through all that and it tells you its not your past life its everyones you have to focus on - whatta maroon. then up and up like that until you get to fairly near the end and its like - the whole idea of past lives is "mocked up" by you, you dumb freak, you should go to therapy or something.

nowadays its not so obscure and you can ever find youtubes of Ron Boy reading the Space Opera and Wall of Fire stuff out to the first time (obtained at "the cost of a BROKEN! BACK!")

Is that website the one that had a lawsuit against it (which failed) and in a Barbara Streisland effect sort of way end up telling everyone they had the actual stories?

The thing I read was the origin story about the big god-not-god emperor zenu (?) who does something like blow up the souls he trapped in volcanos using nuclear bombs, and there is something about the souls being taken to a sort of cinema and being indoctrinated, and they are the source of our negative thoughts.  It wasn't even written well, and so convoluted and ridiculous it is impossible to remember. 

It has a wiki page actually (Xenu) it's funny how much shit I missed out. And there are people who leave the church but still believe.  Protestant scientologists....just imagine what their JWs will be like.

Xenu was about to be deposed from power, so he devised a plot to eliminate the excess population from his dominions. With the assistance of psychiatrists, he gathered billions[6][7] of his citizens under the pretense of income tax inspections, then paralyzed them and froze them in a mixture of alcohol and glycol to capture their souls. The kidnapped populace was loaded into spacecraft for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth).[7] The appearance of these spacecraft would later be subconsciously expressed in the design of the Douglas DC-8, the only difference being that "the DC8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn't".[20] When they had reached Teegeeack, the paralyzed citizens were off-loaded, and placed around the bases of volcanoes across the planet.[7][9] Hydrogen bombs were then lowered into the volcanoes and detonated simultaneously,[9] killing all but a few aliens.

[touchingcloth]

remember finding a lot OT stuff on Clambake.org back in the day when it felt taboo to have any. so of it is mindblowing, the further up you go through scientology 'scripture' (or "technology" as they have it) the more bald-faced and brazen the manipulation is. for several stages you're supposed to unpack the trauma that happens in your personal life. then surprise surprise! its not your current life you should've been focused on, its your past life - you idiot, you absolute clod. then you go through all that and it tells you its not your past life its everyones you have to focus on - whatta maroon. then up and up like that until you get to fairly near the end and its like - the whole idea of past lives is "mocked up" by you, you dumb freak, you should go to therapy or something.

nowadays its not so obscure and you can ever find youtubes of Ron Boy reading the Space Opera and Wall of Fire stuff out to the first time (obtained at "the cost of a BROKEN! BACK!")

Yeah, but he's written a book which is so scary that anyone who reads it would kill themself so he can't publish it or let you see it because then he'd be done for murder. What have you ever done?


(I like that the thread has already reached a point where I'm starting to have to concentrate whether "OT" is being used in the Chrizzo or Scientologist sense.)

[Video Game Fan 2000]

That may be true (i certainly wouldn't have noticed as I've no idea about the Jewish oral tradition). I'd say his early greatness is more about the lack of vagueness so it'd be strange that something he had from a young age came out after 5 albums or so.  Early on he's doing storytelling songs like Death of Hattie Carrol or Only a Pawn while guys are kicking about still singing 'we shall not be moved'. 

ive seen Jokerman interpret this way - he's using the cultural/oral use of scripture and their openness to interpretation as a way to explain what he thinks he's doing in his lyrics and songs. one way to see it is that he's trying to provide a secular version of the same thing, not really a mythology so much as a secular practice of interpretation and re-interpretation that's closer to religious stuff than it is to the way folk music is reinterpretted over time.

i think Bob has two seperate peaks - the clear, uncontrovertible political stories like Hattie Carol and then the later obscure, beat poet inspired stuff. to me i think he's doing two seperate things. there's the odd overlap like Ballad of a Thin Man but i cant hear the political Oomph behind something like Idiot Wind however much i think Idiot Wind is brilliant

....just imagine what their JWs will be like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_Church_of_the_Final_Judgment - gnostic scientologists. very influence on a lot of subculture stuff, Maggot Brain is full of it. Psychic TV too.

i guess the JW would be the "Squirrels" who allegedly (by the Church) steal Scientology scripture and translate it into the true scientifically verifiable and falsifiable versions Ron intended (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology))

one of the amazing things about the Xenu mythology is how "intergalactic tax collection" is the eschatological motive for the falling of humanity into bondage. like this guy is so pumped full of drugs and out on his own ship, surrounded by people who collect his cigarette ashes by hand and do god knows what sexual services. and yet despite it all his most imaginative and off-the-wall idea for a cosmic horror to threaten humanity is "oh no, MY TAXES!"