52 victims and 4 bombers?

[An tSaoi]

The Wikipedia page for the Columbine High School massacre says 'Deaths - 15 (including the 2 perpetrators)'. This includes the gunmen with the other people who died, albeit with a distinction. On the other hand, the Wikipedia page for the September 11th attacks says there were '2,973 victims and 19 hijackers'. This clearly separates the hijackers from the other passengers and the people in the towers, even though they died just the same.

This got me wondering whether the perpetrators of an attack - in which they themselves are killed - should be counted alongside the 'other' victims. With Columbine you could argue that the deaths of the gunmen are distinct from the deaths of those they killed, and that their suicides, while an integral part of their plan, should not fall in the same category their targets. However, with suicide bombers (or suicide hijackers), it becomes a little bit less clear, in that the perpetrators meet their end as part of the same event as their targets. They die alongside those they intend to kill.

Aren't suicide bombers also victims of their attack? Not just in a physical sense; they're also victims of indoctrination, they're victims of the leaders who radicalised them, and they're victims of a system or culture that pushes some young Muslim lads to sacrifice their lives for a cause. Or is that too sympathetic an outlook?

So off I went to the Wikipedia page for the 7/7 London bombings. Unlike the articles on 9/11 and Columbine, it simply says 'Deaths - 56'. The suicide bombers are counted as victims along with the others who died on the trains and bus. I think that's fair. How would you word it?

[ThickAndCreamy]

Sexy innocents - 13
Badboy gunmen - 2
A lifetime of post traumatic stress - priceless

[biggytitbo]

They should just list the British victims because they're the only ones that count.

As for the 7/7 wikipedia article, maybe they listed 56 victims because there is little or no evidence that they were suicide bombers.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Aren't suicide bombers also victims of their attack? Not just in a physical sense; they're also victims of indoctrination, they're victims of the leaders who radicalised them, and they're victims of a system or culture that pushes some young Muslim lads to sacrifice their lives for a cause. Or is that too sympathetic an outlook?

Maybe, because you can use that argument for any individual who commits a heinous act. Besides which, they wanted to commit those acts, so they're not really victims of whatever it is they did.

Although when Seung-Hui Cho shot those 32 people dead at Virginia Tech, a student added a 33rd stone to the collection of Hokie Stones representing the victims, and received almost unanimous support, including from the victims' families.

http://www.roanoke.com/vtcampus/wb/114683

[purlieu]

They might be victims, but they aren't victims of the bombing.

[Saucer51]

OP - I wonder if you've read this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253803/Disgust-families-July-7-victims-hearing-refers-killers-apparent-bombers.html

It's regarding relatives of some 7/7 victims who objected at the inquest last week that the alleged bombers deaths were lumped in with the murders of their loved ones. I have immense sympathy as I'm sure most people do - however aren't all cases sub judice subject to rather harsh sounding legalese - the accused, the alleged victim etc.

[massive bereavement]

Some of the victims may have turned into terrorists had they not been bombed up.

[biggytitbo]

OP - I wonder if you've read this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253803/Disgust-families-July-7-victims-hearing-refers-killers-apparent-bombers.html

It's regarding relatives of some 7/7 victims who objected at the inquest last week that the alleged bombers deaths were lumped in with the murders of their loved ones. I have immense sympathy as I'm sure most people do - however aren't all cases sub judice subject to rather harsh sounding legalese - the accused, the alleged victim etc.

I would have thought so yes. Sadly grieving relatives rarely add anything rational or helpful to proceedings like these.