Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => Picture Box => PC Gone Mad => Topic started by: Neomod on April 08, 2021, 05:30:24 PM

Title: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Neomod on April 08, 2021, 05:30:24 PM
I just bought a second hand desktop which came with windows 10 pro and installed a new hard disk on another laptop with Windows 8.1.

Both have similar sized SSD's and Windows 8 seems much faster despite the processor being half the speed of the Win 10 machine. I even got rid of a load of shite like Cortana on Win 10 thinking that might make a difference but I still get that stupid blue circle now and then even when all I'm doing is browsing the web[1]. Hard disk is healthy so I don't think it's that.

Having had no experience of Windows 10 previously is this par for the course?

Would I be better off getting a copy of Windows 8.1?

And also my Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse is laggy as fuck.
 1. not exactly processor heavy
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 08, 2021, 05:53:45 PM
Not really, no.

Did you Reset the desktop choosing "Remove everything" (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/recovery-options-in-windows-10-31ce2444-7de3-818c-d626-e3b5a3024da5#bkmk_section2) when you got it?

What version of Windows 10 (https://support.techsmith.com/hc/en-us/articles/115001763452-How-to-Check-Windows-10-Build)?

Is Task Manager showing anything with high CPU usage, even if it's just "System interrupts"?

Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Neomod on April 09, 2021, 08:51:22 PM
Cheers Zetetic, I've just checked and it's got an HDD not an SSD. The disk is at 100% for a bit when it starts up.

Windows is version 20H2.

Therefore I'd like to change the Hard disk for an SSD. I read somewhere that your Windows activation is set in the hardware of the pc now and no key is necessary. Is that true?

Also I installed windows 8.1 from a usb. Is it the same process for windows 10?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Malcy on April 10, 2021, 02:58:59 PM
I read somewhere that your Windows activation is set in the hardware of the pc now and no key is necessary. Is that true?

Also I installed windows 8.1 from a usb. Is it the same process for windows 10?

I done it recently using this guide

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/reinstalling-win-10-on-new-hard-disk-drive/6130e6a2-59cd-4448-8f86-774cb312e1b9?auth=1

I made the Windows Installer and put it on a USB. Had a couple of issues trying to create it originally seemingly down to using the USB 3.0 input on my laptop so use a normal 2.0. No key required.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: El Unicornio, mang on April 10, 2021, 08:31:30 PM
I've cloned OS drives a couple of times using Macrium Reflect (free software)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LClr3FPg4_4&ab_channel=Macrium

If you're not arsed about keeping stuff though, always best to just do fresh from a USB as mentioned above. SSD a must these days, don't think I could go back to OS on HDD.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 11, 2021, 01:29:05 PM
What are you going to use the computer for?

Windows 10 is bloated to fuck, and Windows 8 is the worst ever.  Where's my start menu?!
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: DrGreggles on April 11, 2021, 01:43:15 PM
Win 10 is SO MUCH BETTER than 8/8.1

Who's the PC manufacturer?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 11, 2021, 02:30:27 PM
Is windows 10 markedly different to 8/8.1 or are they just shell changes because nobody liked windows 8? I thought it was the latter really.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 11, 2021, 03:10:43 PM
Is windows 10 markedly different to 8/8.1 or are they just shell changes because nobody liked windows 8? I thought it was the latter really.

It seems like the latter to me. At work the admins did something to remove that godawful tiled start page in Windows 8, but they upgraded us to Windows 10 without me noticing that anything had changed.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: olliebean on April 11, 2021, 04:42:25 PM
I think it depends what you're coming from. I kept falling back to XP for many years, because I wasn't keen on the changes in 7 and 8 was a disaster. Going directly from XP to 10 was a much easier transition than from XP to 7 or 8, and I imagine than from 7 or 8 to 10.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Neomod on April 11, 2021, 05:51:42 PM
What are you going to use the computer for?

Windows 10 is bloated to fuck, and Windows 8 is the worst ever.  Where's my start menu?!

Mainly visual (photoshop, lightroom, illustrator, video editing) and audio (FL Studio) but I will be buying Eurotruck once I get a graphics card.

Yeah, I went through disabling loads of stuff. This is the first time using both 8.1/10 as I had held out on my laptop with Windows 7. I've made both look as much like 7 as possible an all.

I done it recently using this guide

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/reinstalling-win-10-on-new-hard-disk-drive/6130e6a2-59cd-4448-8f86-774cb312e1b9?auth=1

I made the Windows Installer and put it on a USB. Had a couple of issues trying to create it originally seemingly down to using the USB 3.0 input on my laptop so use a normal 2.0. No key required.

Thanks, I think I will install afresh.

Win 10 is SO MUCH BETTER than 8/8.1

Who's the PC manufacturer?

It's a Dell
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 12, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
Mainly visual (photoshop, lightroom, illustrator, video editing) and audio (FL Studio) but I will be buying Eurotruck once I get a graphics card.

Yeah, I went through disabling loads of stuff. This is the first time using both 8.1/10 as I had held out on my laptop with Windows 7. I've made both look as much like 7 as possible an all.


I was going to recommend Linux (new Linux cunt alert) but either way it's maybe worth looking into running a Win7 machine offline for all those arduous tasks.  I have a Windows laptop (running 7) for Ableton that doesn't go online.  Obviously this only works if the apps you need will run on Win7.

I've only recently upgraded my music PC to Win7 from Vista!! I've never ran into problems myself with audio plugins/etc, but I don't know about image/video editing.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Neomod on April 12, 2021, 06:56:48 PM
I've only recently upgraded my music PC to Win7 from Vista!! I've never ran into problems myself with audio plugins/etc, but I don't know about image/video editing.

I'll be fixing my windows 7 laptop in due course but the processor is fairly old and so it was about time for something new.

Anyway I'm downloading the windows 10 on to a usb but it hasn't asked for which version of windows 10 I want to reinstall (It's Pro). Will it clarify this later on when Install it?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 12, 2021, 08:25:49 PM
I'll be fixing my windows 7 laptop in due course but the processor is fairly old and so it was about time for something new.

Anyway I'm downloading the windows 10 on to a usb but it hasn't asked for which version of windows 10 I want to reinstall (It's Pro). Will it clarify this later on when Install it?

You'd want Win7 on your best machine if you were using it in the way I meant.

I'm not really sure as I always got Windows in other ways, but see the second answer here - https://superuser.com/questions/1004242/are-the-installation-media-for-windows-10-home-and-professional-different

If you are updating a PC from 8 I think it'll be taking it from the existing OS/bios.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 12, 2021, 08:33:38 PM
If you look up you'll find a few ways you can debloat Win10, although I am not sure it is as successful as the tiny version of Win7 where the iso is <700mb.  For example - https://christitus.com/debloat-windows-10-2020/

You'll probably be able to find a tool with options on Major Geeks or something similar.  BlackViper's scripts if they exist for Win10 might be handy too.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: servese43 on April 13, 2021, 07:01:56 AM
I think there's also windows 10 LTSC/LTSB, which is basically a version of windows 10 for business that basically doesn't do stuff like forcing the installation of cortana and candy crush or locking up your computer for 2 hours in an unsuccessful attempt to update itself. You can't officially buy it as an individual customer, but I believe it is possible to pirate it you want it (bit dodgy but it'll probably be fine as long as you're careful.) I'd probably just use Tiny7 though.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: canadagoose on April 25, 2021, 10:38:35 PM
I don't know how any of you can be arsed with 7 nowadays with all the updates it requires if you're installing from scratch. Rollup patches then WSUS Offline is useful for getting them sorted, but it's still a nuisance.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 26, 2021, 07:06:44 PM
I don't know how any of you can be arsed with 7 nowadays with all the updates it requires if you're installing from scratch. Rollup patches then WSUS Offline is useful for getting them sorted, but it's still a nuisance.

True, but if you are using it as an offline machine, then you don't really need updates unless you need them to make programs work.  Still a potential nightmare, but once you are done it's far better than 10.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 26, 2021, 07:08:18 PM
Might as well install XP.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: pigamus on April 26, 2021, 07:29:25 PM
The new update/version of Windows 10 seems to use less disk space. Don’t know what it’s called but it makes the taskbar/start menu go kind of whitish grey rather than black? It’s even left me some disk space on my laptop with very little disk space, which I’m surprised about.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Replies From View on April 26, 2021, 07:34:49 PM
what's the tits with there being no windows 9?


same thing happened with iphones, red dwarf and everything in that category.  is there a phobia about using the number 9 like some streets skip the number 13?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 26, 2021, 07:42:16 PM
They've never even made their mind up about the naming convention.  Windows 1, 2, 3, then 95, 98, then XP and Vista, then 7,8 & 10.

I suppose 95 is 4, 98 is 5, XP is 6, and so Vista must be 9.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 26, 2021, 07:46:42 PM
So what number is Windows ME then?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: JaDanketies on April 26, 2021, 07:50:22 PM
It's a Dell

Hello from the other side, I must've called a thousand times, To tell you I'm sorry for everything that I've done, But when I call, you never seem to be home
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 26, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
So what number is Windows ME then?

I suppose ME must be either 0 or 11.  Did anyone use it?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: pigamus on April 26, 2021, 07:52:19 PM
So what number is Windows ME then?

Well it would tell you but it can’t get out of bed
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Neomod on April 26, 2021, 07:53:33 PM
I don't know how any of you can be arsed with 7 nowadays with all the updates it requires if you're installing from scratch. Rollup patches then WSUS Offline is useful for getting them sorted, but it's still a nuisance.

I was still using Windows 7 up until recently and had turned off updates a while ago as I had one of those processors that slowed to a crawl due to that notorious security update.

The new update/version of Windows 10 seems to use less disk space. Don’t know what it’s called but it makes the taskbar/start menu go kind of whitish grey rather than black? It’s even left me some disk space on my laptop with very little disk space, which I’m surprised about.

I've got this but also used this vid to remove the bloat/telemetry stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgW7iXejfqQ

Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: olliebean on April 26, 2021, 08:57:27 PM
The new update/version of Windows 10 seems to use less disk space. Don’t know what it’s called but it makes the taskbar/start menu go kind of whitish grey rather than black? It’s even left me some disk space on my laptop with very little disk space, which I’m surprised about.

Don't know what that is. Mine is telling me I'm fully up to date but the taskbar/start menu is still black. Doesn't it depend what accent colour you pick in the settings?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: pigamus on April 26, 2021, 09:03:06 PM
It's 20H2 I think

EDIT: if you got to search, type settings, then system, about, it'll tell you which version you've got - if it's 1919 it'll start badgering you for 20H2 at some point - telling you it's end of life - it did me anyway
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: olliebean on April 26, 2021, 09:31:35 PM
It's 20H2 I think

EDIT: if you got to search, type settings, then system, about, it'll tell you which version you've got - if it's 1919 it'll start badgering you for 20H2 at some point - telling you it's end of life - it did me anyway

20H2 is what I've got, but it hasn't changed its appearance for me at all. Are you sure you haven't installed a preview version of 21H2? I've seen pictures of that where the taskbar and start menu are greyish white.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: pigamus on April 26, 2021, 10:00:46 PM
One's 20H2, other one's 2004, both gone silvery grey
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 26, 2021, 10:24:37 PM
I had it updated to 20H2 (prior to uninstalling it) and hadn't noticed any appearance or bloat changes.

Does the appearance chance maybe rely on it being activated?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: pigamus on April 26, 2021, 10:47:17 PM
I was still using Windows 7 up until recently and had turned off updates a while ago as I had one of those processors that slowed to a crawl due to that notorious security update.

I've got this but also used this vid to remove the bloat/telemetry stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgW7iXejfqQ



Useful video, thanks - his taskbar's gone grey as well!
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Blumf on April 27, 2021, 12:20:14 AM
what's the tits with there being no windows 9?

Apparently some apps (mostly Java ones) would check the Window's version string to see if it started with "Windows 9" and assume you were running Windows 95 or 98.

It's not quiet as dumb as it first sounds, but still pretty crap. Still better than the SysWoW64 dir.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: canadagoose on April 27, 2021, 11:36:17 AM
If the appearance hasn't changed with 20H2 you're using dark mode. Change it to light mode (appearance settings probably) and you'll notice.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 27, 2021, 11:45:55 AM
But I did change it to light mode, I got rid and installed Lubuntu.

Boom, tish.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Dex Sawash on April 27, 2021, 12:35:27 PM
Was going to bitch about W10 not having shutdown shortcut but googled it instead. Window+x is supposed to bring up a shutdown menu. Thanks!
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: olliebean on April 27, 2021, 09:49:53 PM
If the appearance hasn't changed with 20H2 you're using dark mode. Change it to light mode (appearance settings probably) and you'll notice.

Oh wow, that's horrible. Although, if the taskbar and start menu weren't already light in light mode, what on earth was the point of it?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: mobias on April 27, 2021, 10:24:42 PM
Windows 10 is such a pile of shite. I had been a devoted Apple user for almost 20 years so switched back to Windows full time recently has been a painful experience. I find it quite funny that as far as aesthetics goes PC hardware has mostly left Apple in the dust but as far as the OS in concerned nothing much has moved on for Windows since Windows 95.  I get that Windows has to do something a bit different to what OSX has to do but even so its such a backward OS.

I do find it quite funny that these high end visually incredible gaming PC's have to run this utterly drab OS.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Replies From View on April 27, 2021, 10:27:17 PM
It's 20H2 I think

all these trendy new ways of abbreviating The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 27, 2021, 10:40:47 PM
I find it quite funny that as far as aesthetics goes PC hardware has mostly left Apple in the dust
???

Quote
as far as the OS in concerned nothing much has moved on for Windows since Windows 95.
?????
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 27, 2021, 10:46:48 PM
I won't play computer games on anything that doesn't support Scherzo:
(http://www.atpm.com/6.08/images/gui-scherzo.gif)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: mobias on April 28, 2021, 08:58:22 AM
???


Granted its all down to taste but gone are the days when all PC's are in grey featureless boxes. Some new PC designs are extraordinary examples of form and function. Its Apple that seem fairly bland and conservative these days, and I say that as a past Apple fan.


?????


Going back to windows recently it just seems like time has stood still with it. I hadn't really used Windows much since the late 90's and on the surface it doesn't seem to have moved on in any great visual way. Obviously it has underneath it all but on top it just seems like its the same old. 
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Blumf on April 28, 2021, 10:09:30 AM
Going back to windows recently it just seems like time has stood still with it. I hadn't really used Windows much since the late 90's and on the surface it doesn't seem to have moved on in any great visual way. Obviously it has underneath it all but on top it just seems like its the same old.

I'll second Zetetic's ???

Mac OS in 1984:

(https://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/images/screenshots/system1.1/desktop.gif)
Menu at top, drives on desktop, close window button on left

Max OS in 2021:

(https://www.learningosx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/OS-X-Desktop-1024x6401.jpg)
Menu at top, drives on desktop, close window button on left

Apart from the colour and the increased resolution, the only real visual change in all that time seems to be the Dock.

Nearly four decades of the same basic interface. That's not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 10:21:22 AM
Both Mac OS and Windows have changed substantially in terms of "design language" over the years.

My vague feeling is that Mac OS was strongest, in terms of consistency and purpose, a few years back and that it's since suffered a bit from trying merge idea from iOS, iPadOS into macOS. I note that Aqua has considerably calmed down in the last two decades - high saturation and weird skeuomorphism (which I like aesthetically…) in UI elements is lot less prominent.

Windows's journey through Metro and Fluent is an incoherent mess in lots of ways, tied up with the usual MS committent to all sorts of backwards compatibility - the Settings/Control Panel thing being the obvious example of that. But I think Fluent is inoffensive and pleasant enough in quite a similar way to modern Aqua. (It's also fairly obviously quite different to Windows 98.)

Both of them feel like they've tended towards making most UI elements less interesting. Both of them use transparency and blurring quite a lot in quite similar ways, I think, to convey layering? Other than of them have followed the general tendency towards flatness (although not to the degree of Android's Material design, which seems more ideological/aesthetic than others).

I do think that Windows has much better windows management than Mac OS at this point, which I still think is weird. (Stuff like Magnet (https://magnet.crowdcafe.com/) or Spectacle (https://www.spectacleapp.com/) Rectangle (https://rectangleapp.com/) tries to fix this.)

Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Blumf on April 28, 2021, 11:03:56 AM
That's the weird thing about the comment as, if you're talking about the look of the icons and widgets, Windows has changed massively in the past decade, never mind quarter of a century. But then, pretty much all desktop OSs have.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 11:53:53 AM
My main gripe with OSX is their maddening fullscreen mode, or more specifically it's the default option of the green thing in the top left of the app window, I think this should maximise and the option click should do fullscreen because fullscreen is FUCKING HORRIBLE and hides the menus.

It should be possible to swap these round (if only for accessibility reasons), but the Apple response/users' response is that Apple is infallible and it is you that is wrong for not wanting to hold down option every time.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
And often maximise doesn't work as you'd expect either, and this convention of the app doing what it feels like is reinforced by some of Apple's own apps.

This does kind of feel like an example of how windows management on Mac OS has been haphazardly influenced by convictions about convergence with iOS. (In contrast to Windows, which has various features designed around navigating and resizing multiple windows on screen at once and tries to make those features discoverable in a fairly unobtrusive fashion.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
the Settings/Control Panel thing

It's this sort of thing which makes Windows feel like it's been stagnant. A lot of the most important admin features haven't changed one jot (well, half a jot perhaps) since 95, so no matter what the main OS looks and feels like, as soon as I need to remove a program or update a driver or partition a disk I feel like I've been transported back in time three decades.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 08:04:49 PM
I'd rather seldom-used, but important under-the-hood features to be aligned with my muscle-memory rather than being rearranged to stay 'current' but that's just me.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: olliebean on April 28, 2021, 09:11:18 PM
I'd rather seldom-used, but important under-the-hood features to be aligned with my muscle-memory rather than being rearranged to stay 'current' but that's just me.

Or worse, removed entirely because they mistake "seldom-used" for "not worth maintaining."
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 09:20:46 PM
And what Windows does in practice, for better or worse, is usually maintain legacy interfaces while providing new ones (that, in recent years, are at least feeling a bit more consistent and reusable - PowerShell being the obvious example of that).
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 09:39:55 PM
Although saying that I had to jump on a windows server today and my experience is counter to all of this. I think it was WS 2016 because it used metro heavily and I think 19 has dialled that back a little.

Anyway, I just needed to poke around on it and wanted to search for files by a certain extension and fuck me the search tool was fucking woeful, some weird full-screen mess that looked like it hadn't loaded properly. It couldn't find the extension I wanted, or *.txt or *.exe and I'm fairly sure it had some of those on there. After googling it turns out the search service needed to be enabled (?) and I had to piss about in server manager to enable that and then some weird settings via windows explorer to get to another screen to tell it what to actually look for.

Then it still couldn't find fuck all until it had built the index.

I think windows search peaked with the annoyingly cutesy XP dog and has been going downhill since.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 10:24:08 PM
Windows search is bafflingly shit, only slightly less bafflingly so than Google Drive’s.

MacOS feels like it makes incremental improvements to the guts of the OS with each major release, and usually without deprecating lesser-used stuff unilaterally. A recent update removed the ability to run the native “secure erase” (write zeroes/random data to taste) on flash media, but mainly because that’s not very effective for flash storage rather than people not using it.

The very latest OS has completely changed the way stone things are administered, though, as system files are stored in a read only partition which even sudo-ing and unmounting won’t help you with unless you boot in safe mode. I think I like that, but it does mean I can’t change my wallpapers as easily, though arguably it’s no bad thing to make it hard as hell to get into certain parts of an OS.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 10:40:56 PM
usually without deprecating lesser-used stuff unilaterally
Disabling 32-bit applications seems a fairly major counterexample to this.
About to kill OpenGL. About to disappear Python, Perl and Ruby.

(Which is not me saying that these things are bad to do.)

Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 10:44:15 PM
I think I like that, but it does mean I can’t change my wallpapers as easily, though arguably it’s no bad thing to make it hard as hell to get into certain parts of an OS.
It turned out to be pain in the arse when the Radeon 6490M in my laptop finally committed suicide. (You have to go through a slightly dance involving disabling SIP, shuffling drivers around the place, writing to PRAM, reloading drivers etc. if you want a computer that both actually boots ever again and isn't trying to start a fire.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Blumf on April 28, 2021, 11:00:40 PM
Windows search is bafflingly shit

It is total shit. Used to be one of those processes that hammered the hard drive endlessly for 'indexing' that never seemed to result in any searches actually working.

This helps a lot:
https://tools.stefankueng.com/grepWin.html
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 11:07:15 PM
Windows search is bafflingly shit, only slightly less bafflingly so than Google Drive’s.

IntelliJ is like this too. A massive kitchen sink IDE that has so many features you can't find the ones you want and even when you do it can't get the basics right. An example of something that does many jobs badly. Which is almost always what the worst software is and what genuinely good software usually ends up becoming.

Which brings me round to begrudgingly admitting Microsofts VS Code is actually relatively nice as it's more than a text editor but slightly less than a full-fat IDE and well supported plugins you can add yourself to bloat it up if you wish. Works well on Linux and OSX too. It's UI is pretty nice and doesn't feel exactly 'microsofty' either.

This isn't entirely relevant, but I hate it and certain colleagues who think it's imperative to write code it can understand so its code completion works, even if that means writing code that is objectively less functional, egregiously verbose or less readable.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 11:08:17 PM
It is total shit. Used to be one of those processes that hammered the hard drive endlessly for 'indexing' that never seemed to result in any searches actually working.

This helps a lot:
https://tools.stefankueng.com/grepWin.html

Yes in the XP days you would've had to have been daft or rich enough to afford a mega pc to turn indexing on but at least the dog found stuff even if it took some time.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 11:23:22 PM
It turned out to be pain in the arse when the Radeon 6490M in my laptop finally committed suicide. (You have to go through a slightly dance involving disabling SIP, shuffling drivers around the place, writing to PRAM, reloading drivers etc. if you want a computer that both actually boots ever again and isn't trying to start a fire.)

Apart from hard drives, I’ve never changed any hardware in any of my Macs, so I can’t really speak to how well they play with PCI peripherals compared with Windows. Back 15 years ago they played much more nicely with audio devices connected over serial ports than Windows could manage.

It’s probably fair to say that Windows having to cater to a wider market of modders (my hunch is I’m not alone in basically not changing my Macs from their factory forms) is one of the reasons they perhaps can’t make add drastic changes to the fundamentals as easily. Not to mention the proportion of corporate users of Windows compared to Mac Server versions.

The depreciation of 32bit stuff was noisily flagged for at least two major versions of OSX if I recall correctly, and I can’t remember which if any 32 bit software I was using at the time didn’t get an update in time, though I bet many corporate environments would struggle to make the switch completely with any real speed.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 28, 2021, 11:30:11 PM
This wasn't through modding to be clear: there's a whole bunch of MacBook Pros where the thermal setup around the discrete GPUs was a disaster and they'd almost inevitably kill themselves. (What makes this a massive pain is that they were also setup to try very hard to use the discrete GPU on boot.)

I think the real loss with the 32-bit stuff was games and little utilities that had been published years ago. (Irrelevant to both of us, I'm sure.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 11:31:01 PM
Which brings me round to begrudgingly admitting Microsofts VS Code is actually relatively nice as it's more than a text editor but slightly less than a full-fat IDE and well supported plugins you can add yourself to bloat it up if you wish. Works well on Linux and OSX too. It's UI is pretty nice and doesn't feel exactly 'microsofty' either.

This isn't entirely relevant, but I hate it and certain colleagues who think it's imperative to write code it can understand so its code completion works, even if that means writing code that is objectively less functional, egregiously verbose or less readable.

Isn’t VSCode something Microsoft bought rather than developed from scratch? It’s good, though, probably the best IDE-style text editor I’ve used that works on any platform you care to mention (except Big Sur on Apple silicon for now, it seems).

Some of the stuff I do at work would benefit from VSCode implementing IntelliSense, but I guess that’s part of what they use to justify the VS licence costs.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 11:40:54 PM
I think it provides it with per-language plugins?
https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/intellisense

If not there's plenty of code (and markup) plugins that'll do completion/suggestion.

It's great for some stuff - config files, markup, quite strict verbose languages. The problem comes when it doesn't play well with more dynamic/functional stuff at which point it encourages the problems it claims to solve.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 11:43:43 PM
I think the real loss with the 32-bit stuff was games and little utilities that had been published years ago. (Irrelevant to both of us, I'm sure.)

I think there might have been some emulators which we lost to the 32 bit coup, so I can definitely see how it would impact some uses there’s nothing that I do personally that has suffered. My home computer is used for browsing, video and photo editing. One of the biggest benefits of not really being into gaining any more has been laptops getting smaller, lighter and cheaper as my resource needs have essentially plateaued whilst hardware has kept getting faster. I switched to an Air recently, which was unthinkable a generation or two ago. Some of the photo editing applications I use are running in compatibility mode rather than having been compiled for the ARM chip, and they’re barely any slower than on my old Intel Mac, which is confusing. I might try installing Crysis at the weekend.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 28, 2021, 11:46:18 PM
I think the sad thing with dropping 32 bit support is the little utilities as you say, and adjacent to that the fact people might be relying on them for other peripherals, which may now be turned to e-waste. But maybe that's less of a problem for macs anyway, it'd definitely be the case for weird esoteric things on pc's.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 28, 2021, 11:49:00 PM
I think it provides it with per-language plugins?
https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/intellisense

If not there's plenty of code (and markup) plugins that'll do completion/suggestion.

It's great for some stuff - config files, markup, quite strict verbose languages. The problem comes when it doesn't play well with more dynamic/functional stuff at which point it encourages the problems it claims to solve.

Completion, yes, but it’s the syntax highlighting for some stuff which doesn’t seem to exist outside of proper Visual Studio. Losing it has made me pay more attention to how I lay out my code rather than relying purely on red squiggles to flag a dangling/missing bracket, which pays off in readability compared to my formerly sloppy code (I’m by no means a dev).
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 12:05:02 AM
I think the sad thing with dropping 32 bit support is the little utilities as you say, and adjacent to that the fact people might be relying on them for other peripherals, which may now be turned to e-waste. But maybe that's less of a problem for macs anyway, it'd definitely be the case for weird esoteric things on pc's.

Before snipping tool in Windows gained rulers, I used a tiny bit of freeware which would lock your mouse cursor to only being able to move straight left and right or up and down, which let you highlight without looking looking like a child had scrawled on your screenshot. That’s the kind of stuff which people just stop maintaining because their niche usefulness doesn’t lead to profitability.

Like with snipping tool, loads of those little utilities end up getting baked into later versions of OSes. I’ve used loads of different utilities on Windows and Mac over the years, for example, but both OSes have oficial implementations which arguably work better because they’re more effective at doing things like tracking changes in ambient light.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 12:09:03 AM
I find it baffling no operating system seems to include a clipboard manager by default. If either Microsoft or Apple suddenly bought it in they'd be heralded inventors of something that isn't a new idea.

I also find it baffling how many technically adept people don't know they exist.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 29, 2021, 12:13:01 AM
I think Windows 10 has its own Clipboard History implementation. (And there was some weird relationship to Office at some point, I think.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 12:17:05 AM
I knew someone at university whose PC was running one of those OEM versions of Windows with a load of pointless bloatware on, one feature of which was flashing CAPS LOCK on screen every time the key was pressed, and through this we realised that he used caps lock rather than shift for starting sentences. A computer science course.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 12:20:06 AM
Completion, yes, but it’s the syntax highlighting for some stuff which doesn’t seem to exist outside of proper Visual Studio. Losing it has made me pay more attention to how I lay out my code rather than relying purely on red squiggles to flag a dangling/missing bracket, which pays off in readability compared to my formerly sloppy code (I’m by no means a dev).

Formatting doesn't bother me generally unless it's very bad and will leave my own code up to an autoformatter if possible to minimise pedantry about it in review.

Intellisense can struggle with languages that lend themselves to more dynamic code and this all ends up in a philosophical debate over brevity and the finer points of functional vs Object-Oriented patterns whose logical conclusion is "but why do you need the ide to suggest anything when the code is already writing itself?".
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: evilcommiedictator on April 29, 2021, 12:38:56 AM
It's this sort of thing which makes Windows feel like it's been stagnant. A lot of the most important admin features haven't changed one jot (well, half a jot perhaps) since 95, so no matter what the main OS looks and feels like, as soon as I need to remove a program or update a driver or partition a disk I feel like I've been transported back in time three decades.

It's already kinda been covered, but it's still supporting software from 25 years ago that can run on the platform, including *cough* 32-bit stuff.
The new "Settings" hides a lot of the old Control Panel, but most of it is still accessible when you need it
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 12:42:52 AM
It’s not usually software which I’m writing in VSCode, but I used to do bits of SSRS in Visual Studio proper until we realised that we didn’t have a licence for it. VSCode isn’t anything more than a text editor for me in that context as I have no way to debug stuff, which gives checking for those dangling brackets a little frisson of excitement. Parts of it involve writing VBA as well, it’s hyper modern.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 12:49:51 AM
It's already kinda been covered, but it's still supporting software from 25 years ago that can run on the platform, including *cough* 32-bit stuff.
The new "Settings" hides a lot of the old Control Panel, but most of it is still accessible when you need it

I've just had a quick google and it looks like my remaining 32 bit needs will be covered when and if the time comes.

(https://i.imgur.com/8AMT1Rd.png)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: seepage on April 29, 2021, 07:48:24 AM
Windows search is bafflingly shit

I was going to have a moan about Windows 10 search reverting to the 'Content' view each time, but just found an article with some registry fixes to make the 'Details' view the default instead, like Windows 7.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 10:44:56 AM
Letting the index build on that server still didn't work and the search was so shit I ended up just googling how to find by extension in Powershell. The system works!
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 29, 2021, 12:00:36 PM
I think Windows 10 has its own Clipboard History implementation. (And there was some weird relationship to Office at some point, I think.)

It does, although you need turn it on in settings.  Then Windows key + v brings up a windows letting you choose from the history.

I think these things come as standard with most linux distros.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: MojoJojo on April 29, 2021, 12:12:35 PM
Yes, my work machine with the corporate Centos has klipper. It's a bit crap and sometimes breaks clip and paste completely when using remote desktop stuff.

I'm a big fan of VS code. The remote ssh extension is excellent, and the clangd extension means I finally have code completion/reference following working properly for C++, since it's relatively easy to get the build options out of your build system for it.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 12:20:46 PM
It does, although you need turn it on in settings.  Then Windows key + v brings up a windows letting you choose from the history.

I think these things come as standard with most linux distros.

The way it could become ubiquitous is if it were packed as part of the desktop environment. Gnome doesn't seem to come with it but there's a good enough extension for it. Of course distros can add what they like.

The fact it needs to be turned on seems quite daft. I can't see it being a feature most people wouldn't want, and Microsoft have opted people in to far worse things without consent under the guise of 'helpfulness'.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 12:22:53 PM
Microsoft have opted people in to far worse things without consent under the guise of 'helpfulness'.

Worse than Songs of Innocence?
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 29, 2021, 06:40:50 PM
The way it could become ubiquitous is if it were packed as part of the desktop environment. Gnome doesn't seem to come with it but there's a good enough extension for it. Of course distros can add what they like.

The fact it needs to be turned on seems quite daft. I can't see it being a feature most people wouldn't want, and Microsoft have opted people in to far worse things without consent under the guise of 'helpfulness'.

Yeah its not part of my DE (lxqt) but it comes with qclipper already installed and setup.  Maybe I shouldn't have said as standard tbf.

To clarify my windows comments actually, I have it on my work laptop which has the corporate Windows 10, so I am not 100% sure it's a thing on other versions.  I suspect it is though.

Not sure if you were referring to stuff like incessant Cortana and UPDATING...but for me they have made some incredibly poor decisions since W7 with some of them bordering on trolling.

It makes small errors far more infuriating.  The clipboard history is turned off by default to save cpu/disk/ram.  Fair enough.  Then don't by default try to show me the weather/etc/etc every time I click on start.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 06:48:48 PM
Yes I don't really buy the ram argument given the gb's to tens-of-gb's machines have now and all the unnecessary stuff windows does in the background. I remember I used to do frugal stuff like not have desktop backgrounds, animations etc.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 29, 2021, 06:51:17 PM
I'd guess that the clipboard history being off by default is more likely to be about not surprising people about information being unexpectedly easily retrievable. (Which is always a difficult balance, given that the only serious improvement that computers have ever offered most users is "Undo".)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 29, 2021, 06:53:23 PM
I confess that I probably don't remember consumer Windows 10 as-is, so perhaps I'm minimising the routine default annoyances.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 06:58:14 PM
Yes I'm a little out of touch as I've not used it much, I did recently install it on a spare pc to try something out and I intentionally didn't connect to the internet while setting up to avoid creating a Live account (thanks to seeing Wilbur mention it recently) and declined a lot of "helpful" stuff that I thought might invade privacy, I also said no to Cortana stuff as much as I could, I don't know if it's disabled or merely restricted enough not to bother me. But I guess that's not the experience a less discerning/accepting user will get.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 29, 2021, 07:07:24 PM
I'd guess that the clipboard history being off by default is more likely to be about not surprising people about information being unexpectedly easily retrievable. (Which is always a difficult balance, given that the only serious improvement that computers have ever offered most users is "Undo".)

That only works if it popped up for crtl+V.  As it only shows clipboard history when you do WindowsKey + v, it would just be another feature people didn't use.  Albeit one that actually had some worthwhile function.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on April 29, 2021, 07:10:06 PM
No, it's more of an unexpected risk if it doesn't pop-up with Ctrl-V, not less.

(Meanwhile, popping up with Ctrl-V without deliberate prior user action would interrupt what is now a well-established flow.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 07:13:13 PM
There's some validity in the idea it's a potential security risk, especially if people are using it to copy secrets but you'd think implementation at the OS-level would also mean it can employ some access control to protect the historic elements.

I'm sure some tools aren't secure at all and might be holding things in memory or sqlite databases for all I know, and all that's really protecting them are their relative obscurity.

I worry by making it opt-in and not making it common knowledge it's something that doesn't develop, or gets sacked off through lack of take-up.

The most pragmatic way of making users aware of it as a new feature would be a clipboard icon in the tray that brings up the history, rather (as well as) than burying it under a keystroke.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on April 29, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
No, it's more of an unexpected risk if it doesn't pop-up with Ctrl-V, not less.

I didn't realise you meant a security related surprise.  I suppose any clipboard history is a security risk, but it shouldn't be difficult to separate it from the clipboard in terms of access. 

Unless you mean in a real life/non-technical sense like on shared computers, where the current setup is a little known feature that doesn't showcase it is on.  If MS were worried about the security of it, they should've redesigned it before turning it off by default.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: touchingcloth on April 29, 2021, 10:43:29 PM
Are Power Toys still a thing? I remember a few of the better ones making it into production.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: seepage on April 30, 2021, 07:11:16 AM
Are Power Toys still a thing? I remember a few of the better ones making it into production.

I use SyncToy for backup, although it doesn't seem to be part of the current PowerToys suite. 
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on May 06, 2021, 05:33:27 PM
Good news for mobias, maybe:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422553/microsoft-windows-95-era-icons-removal-windows-10-update-sun-valley

As an aside, trying to decide how to describe the icon used for Save button in 2021 is slightly difficult.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on May 06, 2021, 06:57:56 PM
But if you ever find a floppy disk you can tell someone probably not much younger than you that you 3d printed a save icon.
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: mobias on May 07, 2021, 11:18:20 PM
Good news for mobias, maybe:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422553/microsoft-windows-95-era-icons-removal-windows-10-update-sun-valley



Very good to see. I know that in some respects OSX had a lot of familiar left overs from much older versions but its always looked a lot flashier to Windows, to my eye anyway. I know that those nice visual flourishes come at a price and Apple have an integrated graphics chip on their MB that purely deals with OSX and Windows doesn't have that luxury but given the amount of windows users that have decent GPU's you'd think Microsoft would at least make some sort of nice visual eye candy optional.

Anyway its good to see Microsoft are picking up on visually making Windows a bit more forward looking.

Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: RenegadeScrew on May 08, 2021, 07:17:02 AM
Good news for mobias, maybe:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422553/microsoft-windows-95-era-icons-removal-windows-10-update-sun-valley

Look at the shiny shiny!
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on May 08, 2021, 08:34:57 AM
I know that those nice visual flourishes come at a price and Apple have an integrated graphics chip on their MB that purely deals with OSX and Windows doesn't have that luxury but given the amount of windows users that have decent GPU's you'd think Microsoft would at least make some sort of nice visual eye candy optional.

Windows uses compositing effects both to pretty much the same extent and in pretty much the same ways as Mac OS X does, and has done since Vista. (A great deal of convergence on the combined use of transparency and blurring, for example.)
Title: Re: Windows 10. Nah mate.
Post by: Zetetic on May 08, 2021, 12:24:18 PM
I miss this:
http://www.wildbits.com/gravite/