FTX Collapse, feat Sam Bankman-Fraud

[Sebastian Cobb]

I love that the two big social media sites are now run by awkward unsociable weirdos who don't seem to understand people at all.

Maybe standard for big tech tbh. It's notable that Google/MS/Apple have all dipped their toes in the pools of social media to various degrees and failed miserably.

[Jasha]

Larry David was right though, albeit in a way he didn't expect:

Consequences: https://www.avclub.com/larry-david-ftx-ad-class-action-lawsuit-1849794031

That ad sums up the whole shebang to me, total emperor's new clothes con but anyone who points it out is laughed at like some luddite fool

[kngen]

What happened to all the CaBbers who were holding crypt?
Those threads have gone quiet.

Cashed out when the ETH gas rates became ludicrously expensive so trying to catch rise and fall of different coins became a fool's errand. Then I listened to a podcast explaining how they were just unsecured trusts that will all eventually fail, so was happy to walk away with enough to buy a Nintendo Switch and a very nice acoustic guitar for an initial layout of about 200 quid. I've still got some Shiba somewhere, but I think it's probably worth about 0.000001p now, after hitting the heady heights of being worth 0.0001p

[Mortimer]

What happened to all the CaBbers who were holding crypt?
Those threads have gone quiet.

I didn't contribute to those threads. I hesitated before contributing to this one, but for the sake of balance:

Firstly, opinions are polarised. Crypto is either the future of money or it's a massive ponzi and there is no in between. And here's the thing: both sides are utterly convinced that they're right but the reality is that nobody knows for sure. Only the future will tell.

There have been multiple collapses of major exchanges over the years, the most notable early one being Mt Gox in 2013, others in the subsequent years and most recently Celsius and then FTX. Too many conflate the collapse of an exchange with the end of the concept of cryptocurrency. They're different things.

Those that invested in 2021 as a result of the media-instigated interest are down, as were those in 2018 that had invested during the massive growth in 2017. Massive growth generates media reports which attracts novice investors. I guess that's why the earlier threads on here have gone quiet.

Then there are those that sit back and watch and take an interest, without pushing their polarised "I'm right, your wrong" views. People like me. My interest was first piqued in 2014 and, to my regret, I subsequently forgot. Then, roused again by the 2017 explosion, I eventually invested quite a chunk in 2018 as it plummeted from the 2017 all-time-high then sat back and waited. In the spring of 2021, when my "investment" had multiplied by a factor of around ten, I cashed out my initial stake so as I write this I've lost nothing and will not be putting more in. The profit that I left there has of course diminished but is nonetheless profit.

I reckon (but I don't know) that crypto is just doing what crypto does. We're in a bear cycle as we were in 2018, the next bull run will not come until around 2024/25. With the major adoption that has occurred in recent years that bull run will not see the massive multiples of previous runs. Still, now might be a good time to buy and hold for a coupIe of years. I might be proved wrong but given the above I don't care, it's been a fun ride. The fundamental concepts of crypto are good. So good, in fact, that the biggest danger to it's future is not the argument that it might be a ponzi but the prospect that it becomes even bigger than it already is and governments effectively regulate it out of existence because of the threat that it poses to the fiat system.

So sadly, while you'd obviously have to be a complete and utter cretin to put any significant amount of money anywhere near a crypto 'exchange', a lot of ordinary people did and are now fucked.

dickheads have piled into it to deservedly lose their cash: yes

Ah, I realise now that despite being one of those that has actually profited I am, evidently, a complete and utter cretin and a dickhead.

Did I say opinions were polarised?

[Cuellar]

You may have profited, but just because you're winning doesn't mean you're not a cretin, as a general sort of point. Sorry.

Yes the failure of exchanges doesn't mean the failure of crypto, but my main contention is with exchanges (and the speculative behaviour they encourage, run by the people who own and control the tokens that are traded on them). Any money you make on an exchange is just a direct transfer from someone else's pocket. You buy a bitcoin for 10 and someone wants to buy it for 11 so you make 1, and this person buys it for 11 because they think they can sell it for 12. It is simply a greater fool situation. Someone, the last person in this chain, will be left with nothing when the exchange collapses.

You may say "well tough, that's finance! That's speculation! That's capitalism!", and I would say yes.

I'll admit I'm not 100% sceptical on 'crypto' as such, some of the utopian claims the believers make are compelling, but I just don't see how it can become the future of money and remain decentralised, etc.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Look i just think there's a lot of revolutionary implications for governance and collective action in DOGEspace right now

[Mortimer]

You may have profited, but just because you're winning doesn't mean you're not a cretin, as a general sort of point. Sorry.

Yes the failure of exchanges doesn't mean the failure of crypto, but my main contention is with exchanges (and the speculative behaviour they encourage, run by the people who own and control the tokens that are traded on them). Any money you make on an exchange is just a direct transfer from someone else's pocket. You buy a bitcoin for 10 and someone wants to buy it for 11 so you make 1, and this person buys it for 11 because they think they can sell it for 12. It is simply a greater fool situation. Someone, the last person in this chain, will be left with nothing when the exchange collapses.

You may say "well tough, that's finance! That's speculation! That's capitalism!", and I would say yes.

I'll admit I'm not 100% sceptical on 'crypto' as such, some of the utopian claims the believers make are compelling, but I just don't see how it can become the future of money and remain decentralised, etc.

I neither agree nor disagree with any of that, except maybe  the cretin bit. As a general point perhaps, but as a specific label - no, you don't know enough about me. As said, the future will tell. Perhaps you're right.

[touchingcloth]

The fundamental concepts of crypto are good.

Which fundamental concepts?

"In the hands of people rather than banks..." is probably something that a lot of people (in general, but CaB specifically) would agree with, but "...achieved through decentralisation implemented with indelible ledgers upheld with proof-of-work mechanisms" - I don't think there's much good in there. Certainly not to say that crypto (which one?) are, if not Ponzi schemes, then the future of finance. They could be neither. 

[Mr_Simnock]

You may have profited, but just because you're winning doesn't mean you're not a cretin, as a general sort of point. Sorry.

nothing wrong with yer everyday caber making a few quid via this, they aren't exactly deluded tech bro worshipers out to become millionaires over night so with that in mind could you calm the sanctimonious cunt act down please, cheers ta

[Psybro]

I heard a radio interview a while ago where a guy made a decent case that it's going to settle as an asset class for speculative investment, but it doesn't really work for the currency alternative it was conceived as.

[QDRPHNC]

If I'd cashed out my crypto this time last year I'd have been way, way up. I didn't and now I'm just a wee bit up, so I'm just letting it sit there and not really thinking about it.

[Famous Mortimer]

nothing wrong with yer everyday caber making a few quid via this, they aren't exactly deluded tech bro worshipers out to become millionaires over night so with that in mind could you calm the sanctimonious cunt act down please, cheers ta

It is still a scam, though

[Deskbound Cunt]

Crypto is a bit of fun if you follow some simple rules.

- Never "invest" more than you can afford to lose. It's gambling and if you treat it as such then fill your boots.
- Never keep your crypto on an exchange. If you don't own your own passcodes then you don't own your crypto. Get a private wallet. Takes 5 mins to set up one.
- Dont bother with short term trading. You will lose money. Buy some then forget about it. Possibly forever.
- Exchange it for XMR and buy some drugs.
- I am not a financial advisor.

I made a bunch of fiat through crypto a year a so ago but my remaining portfolio is presently down by about 70% since then. Shrugs.

The only down side of it for me personally is that my wife who is actually sensible with money being a chartered accountant laughing at the state of it whilst I'm all crpytobro.

I've worked on two NFT projects this year. I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole but it is definitely a thing that's happening in the video game world.

[JamesTC]

but it is definitely a thing that's happening in the video game world.

The publishers are pushing it because of money. Gamers themselves are roundly rejecting it.

[Cuellar]

nothing wrong with yer everyday caber making a few quid via this, they aren't exactly deluded tech bro worshipers out to become millionaires over night

No, in much the same the way as finding a stick on the ground and conning someone into buying it off you for a fiver because you tell them it's really worth a tenner, I suppose. Totally fine.

so with that in mind could you calm the sanctimonious cunt act down please, cheers ta

😂
 

[Mr_Simnock]

nice to see cunts doubling down on being cunts in this thread when pulled up on it

[WhoMe]

That new crypto documentary on Netflix made a decent point that the concept and technology clearly have a role to play in society, it's just figuring out what that is. A purely speculative asset ain't it, though. It's like inventing a free energy device and just using it to power your fish tank. This is just what it'll be while the sector treads water waiting for a breakthrough.

[Famous Mortimer]

nice to see cunts doubling down on being cunts in this thread when pulled up on it

It's also nice to see people trying to convince others that a scam isn't a scam. What a lovely time we're all having in this thread!

[WhoMe]

Is a scam still a scam if everyone knows it, but still decides to participate?

[touchingcloth]

It's not actually a scam if you know it's a scam because you know how the scam works and you can still make money from the scam unlike the rubes who invest in the scam and don't know it's a scam. And who cares if the scam uses as much energy to prop up as it does to run an entire country like Iceland? Take it up with Adam Smith.

[Mister Six]

I wonder if the collapse of FTX is at least partly responsible for all the tech firms firing people to fuck in the past couple of months, despite putting out largely positive Q2 reports. Either directly, because they got suckered into investing, or indirectly, because it's sent ripples through the market (a chilling effect on crypto as a whole? A fear that the bubble might burst next year?) that might turn into tidal waves.

[Cuellar]

nice to see cunts doubling down on being cunts in this thread when pulled up on it

Oh? Why's that then?

[Blumf]

Money is just tokens (real or recorded) used to denote value. A whole load of effort is put in to make sure those tokens can't be faked (including state violence). Crypto currencies are conceptually no different, just using a different means to avoid forgery.

The only real problem is a bunch of crypto-bros jumping in and scamming a bunch of hopeless gamblers into pump and dump schemes. But then, old school money has no shortage of dodgy dealings to separate people from their value too.

It is interesting how establishment organisations seem to be warming up to it slowly. Regulatory bodies seeking to nail down practices and such. Soon, crypto may become as boring as cash and shed itself of the bros. At the point it may be worth taking it seriously. Until then, I'm enjoying the show.

[Deskbound Cunt]

nice to see cunts doubling down on being cunts in this thread when pulled up on it

I got into crypto for two reasons: buying dRgZ and for a bit of nerdy fun. I'm really into the maths of it and how it could become a future of finance.

Doesn't make me a cunt unless you're saying me sticking a fiver on tonight's England match tonight also makes me a cunt.

The cunts are the ones running companies ripping off poor crypto-illiterate saps who haven't done their due diligence.

[Mr_Simnock]

I got into crypto for two reasons: buying dRgZ and for a bit of nerdy fun. I'm really into the maths of it and how it could become a future of finance.

Doesn't make me a cunt unless you're saying me sticking a fiver on tonight's England match tonight also makes me a cunt.

The cunts are the ones running companies ripping off poor crypto-illiterate saps who haven't done their due diligence.

I'm referring to the overgrown 15 year olds in here who keep saying everyone who dabbles in crypto is some sort of cretin, COZ IT A SCAM, you want to have a fun then great, hope you make something from it

[Ferris]

What happened to all the CaBbers who were holding crypt?
Those threads have gone quiet.

Sold mine April 2021 because the holdings were too volatile and the environmental aspect became impossible to ignore. It also seemed massively dodgy.

Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin will always have some innate value because you can use it to buy illegal shit on the internet (it is essentially a heroin-backed currency) but who knows how you put a price on it.

My question is: why was Larry David doing this snake oil shit in the first place? He's worth nearly a billion quid with guaranteed syndication money in the tens of millions every year. He can't need the money. Is it to stay relevant? And if so, relevant to whom - people who watch the superbowl and think crypto might be neat?

[Ferris]

As an aside, I looked at the financials for FTX when this happened a few weeks back and they are staggering. There's a line in there for about eight billion quid which just says "misfiled" or something: basically that means "we don't know where that's gone" which is not the preferred book keeping nomenclature.

They are also counting their own tokens as assets which is bonkers - you can't be the bank and the exchange because this is what happens. You give me $100 of actual money which I'll take and invest or pay myself, but don't worry: I'll secure it with these Ferris Dollars^TM that I've drawn on the back of a cigarette packet. If you ever want your money back, it's absolutely secured (assuming my Ferris Dollars^TM never lose all their value because they're, you know, without value). It's an "Itchy and Scratchyland money" level of cartoonish fraud.

Most egregious example I saw on their books - a few million in "donaldwin" tokens. What are they? They're gambling tokens, essentially, that pay out if trump won the 2020 election which if we all remember correctly; he didn't. So they have zero value so why are they an asset? Fair play they're listed as "illiquid" which is certainly one way of describing them. And that's just one row out of 60 or so from memory and I suspect every one of them stunk.

The hedge funds apparently waived their requirements to review the financials of the exchange prior to investing which is absolutely hilarious - I'd love to see who signed off on that because any exceptions have to be documented. Why did you give this weirdo hundreds of millions of investor money to run his unregistered uncollateralized magic-bean exchange for which he refused to show you the financials?

Won't keep banging on about this, but it is all very, very funny. It has layers.

[Deskbound Cunt]

relevant to whom - people who watch the superbowl and think crypto might be neat?

If it's anything like the UK then yes. Whenever I go to the Etihad, the boards surrounding the pitch are always advertising crypto. The same at the England Qatar match last night (though this could have be digitally altered for the UK market).

I guess the target audience is... blokes. Blokes maybe with a bit of spare dosh, like a flutter and had a couple of pints.

[touchingcloth]

(though this could have be digitally altered for the UK market)

Nope. We watched Portugal Morocco on a Portuguese channel, and the cladding was all crypto.com

[Deskbound Cunt]

I'm referring to the overgrown 15 year olds in here who keep saying everyone who dabbles in crypto is some sort of cretin, COZ IT A SCAM, you want to have a fun then great, hope you make something from it

Ah gotcha'. My misunderstanding, sorry.

Yes, I have friends like this IRL and it's tiresome. For me it's literally just a bit of fun. My actual proper money is in safer/ more boring schemes.