Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge

[Alberon]

There were characters?

[weekender]

Look at Series 10.  You've got Bill Potts, Nardole and The Doctor, and it is by and large fresh and exciting because of the character interactions.

Then Series 11 opens where the big plot point is that Ryan falls off his bike.

[weekender]

There were characters?

I'm trying to help a student with his essay, be kind ;)

[mjwilson]

I can't say I liked it but there were a few positives:

* The Graham and Yaz conversation. Obviously it didn't go anywhere, or lead to anything, because Chibnall. But you know, there was a decent scene there.
* Morbius Doctors are back and Morbius Doctor deniers have to accept it this time. This is basically all I've wanted since the Doctor Ruth episode.
* We got Cybermen with Time Lord collars and Gallifreyan script carved all over their faces. This is a thing which happened in Doctor Who and which, from now on, will always have happened in Doctor Who. In thirty years DWM will have a comic strip about this group of Cybermen and their exploits. In a way I wish they'd happened during Russell's era: at least then I would know that there were deliberately ridiculous. With Chibnall I can't be sure that he might think that they are a Very Serious Idea.
* Sacha Dhawan had some fun.

[mjwilson]

formatting disaster

[Replies From View]

formatting disaster

Most exciting Chibnall premise yet

[weekender]

Morbius Doctors are back and Morbius Doctor deniers have to accept it this time. This is basically all I've wanted since the Doctor Ruth episode.

I'm going to defer to this guy in terms of canon.

[Thomas]

So, how did old Morbs and the sentient cloths see deep into the Doctor's past, beyond the Doctor's own abilities? To be fair, the former was a Time Lord. The latter proved more perceptive than the psychic Ood, who could read minds and project themselves across time and space. Perhaps they just didn't fancy telling the Tenth Doctor - he was a bit busy going mental at the time.

Satisfied fans on The Twitter point out that the Seventh Doctor described himself as 'more than just a Time Lord', and so this new reveal is brilliant and great. Of course, though, the point is supposed to be that the Doctor didn't know about it till now.

[holyzombiejesus]

My 3 year old likes the "triceratops man" so I went back and showed him some of the first episode from the 3rd series (Smith & Jones). Now, I was never really a fan of RTD or Tennant but I was so taken aback by the difference in quality between then and now. After his first scene proper, Tennant's doctor was already far more enigmatic and likeable than the new one has managed in 2 whole series. I was grinning when he was lying in the hospital bed and Martha was about to check his heartbeat. Don't think I've grinned once with this wretched last couple of series. There was chemistry between the doctor and Martha, she came across as a genuine companion rather than as objects to which things happen. And there were no stupid bits of chuntering away to himself in a vain attempt to appear interesting and complex. How much of the Chibnall years has been taken up with the doctor lecturing or explaining things to herself? What a load of wank this programme has become. Sacha Dhawan's dialogue was an absolute fucking joke. Derivative drivel, about as menacing as a Green Day song.

[holyzombiejesus]

Also, just an aside, but the vast vast majority of baddies are exclusively male, aren't they? Even the new lot are nearly all men. They had those cybermen with tits but I don't think that really counts.

[mjwilson]

Disgusting way to talk about Yaz.

[Replies From View]

My 3 year old likes the "triceratops man" so I went back and showed him some of the first episode from the 3rd series (Smith & Jones). Now, I was never really a fan of RTD or Tennant but I was so taken aback by the difference in quality between then and now. After his first scene proper, Tennant's doctor was already far more enigmatic and likeable than the new one has managed in 2 whole series. I was grinning when he was lying in the hospital bed and Martha was about to check his heartbeat. Don't think I've grinned once with this wretched last couple of series.

I agree - you somehow get used to the quality of Chibnall, and feel it might be caused by whatever happens to your perception when you're middle-aged - this vapid show called Doctor Who does nothing before your eyes, like grey unending drizzle against the bathroom window while you fail to have a shit for an hour.

And you think well that's that, that's me done, I guess this is what my senses will give me from now on.


But every now and then your mind asks you to revisit RTD and Moffat's episodes.  You don't really appreciate why, at first.  It's craving something but you don't know what.


And the difference is this:

[The Roofdog]

Is it me or is Paul Cornell a massive bullshitter on social media

[mjwilson]

Jo Martin on the cover of the next DWM.

Potential spoilers for Christmas according to Twitter

Spoiler alert

Graham and Ryan leaving, Yaz staying on

[close]

[Thomas]

Spoiler alert

Ryan and Graham

[close]

revealed to be

Spoiler alert

incarnations of the Doctor

[close]

.

[Alberon]

Jo Martin on the cover of the next DWM.

Potential spoilers for Christmas according to Twitter

Spoiler alert

Graham and Ryan leaving, Yaz staying on

[close]

Sad

Spoiler alert

to lose Graham, if true. But at least it means the madness of the Yaz/Graham Chronicles will be

[close]

over.

[Cloud]

One of the most frustrating things is knowing that you're insane.  Despite all logic saying "stop watching this shit and create some new headcanon starting from just before Chibnall took over and took his wrecking ball to the show", I just know I'll be dutifully sat watching the NYD special and the next series somehow expecting it to be different.  Definition of insanity that isn't it.  I'll be hoping for the "it was just the Master having a laugh / trying to break the Doctor's sense of identity for some dastardly reason" explanation, whilst at the same time knowing it won't be coming.

Jo Martin on the cover of the next DWM.

Potential spoilers for Christmas according to Twitter

Spoiler alert

Graham and Ryan leaving, Yaz staying on

[close]

Spoiler alert

That could honestly be fine, IF they kept it to the two of them. I'd miss Walsh's ability to put a little bit of polish on this turd, but there's plenty of room to give Yaz more of a personality and more of a purpose if she's not 'competing' with 2 other people.  There's just not enough for 3 companions to do, it doesn't work like it did in 1963 with Ian, Barbara and Susan.  Don't know why, it just doesn't, maybe because it's not serials of 6-10 x 20 minute largely character driven but also very slow episodes.  Times have changed.  Culling the number of companions would be one of the best things to do to rescue this show - but you just know there'll probably just be more 'fam' members instead

[close]

[weekender]

Spoiler alert

Ryan and Graham

[close]

revealed to be

Spoiler alert

incarnations of the Doctor

[close]

.

Yaz revealed to be a fencepost in Attack of the Fenceposts.

[olliebean]

Is it me or is Paul Cornell a massive bullshitter on social media

Why, what's he said? I looked at his profile but I can't be bothered to search through the millions of other people's tweets he's retweeted to find the odd one by him. Why doesn't Twitter have a button you can click to hide the retweets and just see that person's tweets?

[Phil_A]

My 3 year old likes the "triceratops man" so I went back and showed him some of the first episode from the 3rd series (Smith & Jones). Now, I was never really a fan of RTD or Tennant but I was so taken aback by the difference in quality between then and now. After his first scene proper, Tennant's doctor was already far more enigmatic and likeable than the new one has managed in 2 whole series. I was grinning when he was lying in the hospital bed and Martha was about to check his heartbeat. Don't think I've grinned once with this wretched last couple of series. There was chemistry between the doctor and Martha, she came across as a genuine companion rather than as objects to which things happen. And there were no stupid bits of chuntering away to himself in a vain attempt to appear interesting and complex. How much of the Chibnall years has been taken up with the doctor lecturing or explaining things to herself? What a load of wank this programme has become. Sacha Dhawan's dialogue was an absolute fucking joke. Derivative drivel, about as menacing as a Green Day song.

Speaking of Tennant I was just thinking of that lovely scene from The Satan Pit when he's preparing to drop down the hole. A patchy couple of episodes that were possibly the victim of one too many revisions, but the strength of the writing in that moment absolutely sings. There don't seem to be any outstanding moments like that now, that stay with you years afterwards. It's all exposition and no poetry.

[kidsick5000]

Why didn't he make the Master think that he's the timeless child, endlessly experimented on, regenerated over and over for Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. So hugely angry etc destroys Gallifrey.
Then the Doctor gets to be more than a bystander as she discovers that I fact, he's misread the matrix and she was the TC

Spoiler alert

(the intellectual leader of the gaaaaaang)

[close]

and Master feels a right pranny, full of regret etc now angry he invites his cyberdoilies to do their worst.

I know it's so easy to push forward alternatives that on the surface seem better, but I don't get the Master's motivation to destroy Gallifrey

[Replies From View]

Why didn't he just do something that wasn't shit.

[Mango Chimes]

Okay, I've had a look at some of Cornell's retweets. One of the positives seems to be the idea that this opens up the world of Doctor Who, specifically saying "anyone can be the Doctor" in a representation sort of sense. I hadn't considered that.

But now I am considering it... When the Doctor's first incarnation was a white man, he was someone who decided to reject his restrictive upbringing and go off to make his own life. Bit of a cunt sometimes, but also kindly. Had agency, became something of a hero.

Now the Doctor's first incarnation is a black child: no parents, adoptive parent tortures her, no agency, helps form a corrupt and broadly evil society, is enslaved as a soldier, probably committed some atrocities...

Going into this episode, I was worried that Chibnall was going to do something terrible with the refugee plot. Watching it, I was relieved that instead he just totally forgot those refugees existed. But now thinking of it, what happened? Oh: a handful of refugees are let through 'the barrier' into Gallifrey, and one of them literally suicide bombs all life on the planet. Very well done.

[JesusAndYourBush]

In a future episode, what if the Doctor got pregnant (with some of Captain jack's immortal spunk that's floating around) and decides to leave the child somewhere to be found.

[Ambient Sheep]

Just finished catching up with Tesla onwards over the last ten days or so.  Have largely enjoyed it, much to my surprise.  It's a shame to think of all the viewers that the unutterably dire Orphan 55 needlessly lost.

Anyway, regarding this latest stuff:

In fact, is The Doctor even a Time Lord? They found her by a space portal, so if that was really her, and there's not some time travel stuff going on, she's presumably not even a Time Lord by birth.

This bugged me too.  It was implied that Tecteun only ripped whatever DNA was necessary to do regeneration out of the founding child and injected it into the Shobogans.  She didn't just clone the whole genome.

In which case, why does The Doctor always show up as "Time Lord" whenever she's scanned to determine her species?  Shouldn't she show up as another species entirely?


Apart from that, I'm surprisingly ok with all this.  Nice to see the Morbius Doctors make an appearance too; I almost punched the air at that.

I do agree that it would have made a lot more sense for The Master to be The Timeless Child though, or at least -- as suggested upthread -- that he thinks he is... and then learns differently.

[Ambient Sheep]

I know RTD always preferred the Time War as a big abstract thing, rather than lasers and soldiers and explosions.

Indeed, he always said that it would never be seen on screen, as it would be unfilmable.

I was going to crack a joke here along the lines of "If The Doctor is The Timeless Child, perhaps The Master is The Nightmare Child" (one of RTD's unfilmable Time War things he threw in to the imagination pot), but upon double-checking the name and arriving at https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Nightmare_Child, it appears that the books have explained it as some kind of special pet Dalek belonging to Davros.  How pathetically and prosaically lame.

His novelisation of Rose suggests a few tongue-in-cheek digs at Moffat's decisions.

I really must get round to reading both that and Moffat's one.

I like Gatiss' joke, in a 1999 sketch, that classic Who gave the central role to 'any old fucker with an Equity card'.

I was sure it was "any old cunt with an equity card" because I remember my shock at hearing the C-word on the BBC, but the internet tells me that I'm wrong and you're right.  Ah, memory.  Which is now quite possibly inventing a scenario that maybe it was beeped and I just assumed the wrong word.

[Ambient Sheep]

The police box, as we'd guessed, was a fuck up. She probably wasn't even flying the same TARDIS as the current Doctor.

We didn't get any explanation of why Doctor Ruth's TARDIS was shaped like a police box, did we? It was just so the audience (and Whittaker's Doctor) would recognise it, with absolutely no in-universe reason for it, wasn't it?

Not a problem, for me.  Different TARDIS, sure... but landing in the same country on the same planet in approximately the same time period (we didn't know how long RuthDoc had been on Earth), why wouldn't their chameleon circuits both select the very same thing to mimic?  That's plausible enough for me.

(I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that seeing the TARDIS being dug up from a grave was indeed one of the most weirdly fabulous & chilling moments in all of Who.  Forgave Chibnall a LOT at that moment.  This week's detached house was also fab.)

Jo Martin on the cover of the next DWM.

Heh, I did think they'd probably do a "Jo Martin IS The Doctor" cover (after all, they did for David Bradley), so that's good to hear, but what the fuck will they ask her?!

[Ambient Sheep]

Oh, I'll tell you one thing that really DID annoy me, back in Can You Hear Me?

That The Doctor would think it was just fine to open up some alien prison trapped between two planets, constructed at huge effort & expense, without at least once saying to herself "Now then, what proof do I have that this hugely-complicated prison arrangement is holding a poor innocent powerless person for whom a regular cell would do, rather than some galactic mega-fiend for whom this was the only solution possible, apart from our Graham hearing her whining 'help me' in his head?"

The fact that after 2000+ years she fell for such a simple trick so easily, without even a "But what if it's evil, Doctor?" "Well that's just a chance we'll have to take, Yaz" annoyed the tits off me.

In fact didn't The Doctor fall for something similar years ago, or am I thinking of a Star Trek episode (probably TNG if so)?

I'm so surprised that nobody else in this thread picked up on this that I'm wondering if I missed something.

[kidsick5000]

Oh, I'll tell you one thing that really DID annoy me, back in Can You Hear Me?
or am I thinking of a Star Trek episode (probably TNG if so)?

Many, many Star Trek episodes

[Ambient Sheep]

Sounds like The Doctor should have watched more Star Trek then.

One more thing I forgot to mention: the Judoon bit at the end REALLY pissed me off.  Far more so than the rest of the episode!  Yet again a super-porous TARDIS... this really really upsets me... the TARDIS should pretty much always be a safe haven for the terrified kid hiding behind the sofa: once you and The Doctor are back inside the blue box, you should always feel safe.  I can honestly say of all the things Chibnall has done to the show, this upsets me the most.  Which is psychologically interesting, I guess.