Yet Another Whiny Marvel Thread

[Small Man Big Horse]

Not only is the MCU demonstrably worse and diluted by multiple films and TV, it's been going on for 15 years now. That's plenty.

And people are complaining about woke which for ages I put down to right wing inceldom tendencies. But I'm starting to come round to it. They did put Thor with a black Heimdall. They did do black Captain America. They did do a black Spiderman. Cramming in the brothers at every opportunity. If they had been brilliant additions it would have helped but they weren't.

It's actually amusing to see them make as many mistakes as DC.

Secret Wars I think I got nearly one episode in before I'd had enough.

I said I was starting to come round to being racist. Starting being racist. As in at the beginning stages of being racist. Not the ending of being racist. The first stages of being racist. Different to the last part of being racist. Open to the either argument for sure of being racist.

And I know you won't like the above. But it's exactly the same idea, and just as ugly.

[bgmnts]

Marvel damned if they do, damned if they don't really.

Create BAME/LGBT reskins of existing IP - pandering.

Don't create  BAME/LGBT reskins of existing IP - non-inclusive and -ist.

Weird how 25 years ago Marvel could release a film with a black male and female lead to no real issue.

Just makes me want to forget the past 15 years and watch Blade. Fuck me Blade is cool.

[13 schoolyards]

The thing that gets me whenever there's hints or announcements that Marvel is thinking of moving towards smaller budget, more character focused superhero movies is that "superheroes" is a genre that's built around big expensive spectacle - the whole point is that it's people doing expensive-to-film impossible things. If you want to go smaller and you still want people to come to your movie, you have to replace the spectacle with the kind of things Disney can't provide: sex, extreme violence, horror, intense drama, actual funny comedy, etc.

The first Blade is awesome and there's no way Disney could make anything like it now.

[Magnum Valentino]

Blade 1 remains cool as fuck yeah.

[dead-ced-dead]

I rewatched Matt Reeve's The Batman and was very impressed by its scope and ambition in a way that I don't think I've felt in an MCU movie. I'd love if they'd move away from shared universes in the future and just make individual movies where a filmmaker's presence can be felt.

[stonkers]

If you want to go smaller and you still want people to come to your movie, you have to replace the spectacle with the kind of things Disney can't provide: sex, extreme violence, horror, intense drama, actual funny comedy, etc.

The first Blade is awesome and there's no way Disney could make anything like it now.

FWIW the next D+ show (Echo) does look like it might be getting back to the more violent tone of the Netflix Daredevil. Though the fact that they're releasing all the episodes in one go does suggest they maybe don't have the greatest confidence in it...

[greenman]

The thing that gets me whenever there's hints or announcements that Marvel is thinking of moving towards smaller budget, more character focused superhero movies is that "superheroes" is a genre that's built around big expensive spectacle - the whole point is that it's people doing expensive-to-film impossible things. If you want to go smaller and you still want people to come to your movie, you have to replace the spectacle with the kind of things Disney can't provide: sex, extreme violence, horror, intense drama, actual funny comedy, etc.

The first Blade is awesome and there's no way Disney could make anything like it now.

The MCU has always had big action set peices in it of course but I think you could argue that in the past it was not so dominated by them and spent rather more time on its characters.

Although honestly I felt after the first Ironman film the MCU was also pretty patchy until the Russo Bros and James Gunn became involved, I feel there films were really what upped the quality of the franchise along with Ragnarok.

[Goldentony]

I rewatched Matt Reeve's The Batman and was very impressed by its scope and ambition in a way that I don't think I've felt in an MCU movie. I'd love if they'd move away from shared universes in the future and just make individual movies where a filmmaker's presence can be felt.

this would be loads better really and it's depressing they can't more often or as the standard because they need to think about sponsored rollercoasters and adverts on grapes

[stonkers]

Then again you also have the Todd Phillips Joker, which is complete arse.

[George White]

Honestly I don't want them to do Doctor Doom any more. Leave him, being amazing, in the comics. He can be a nice surprise for people who get into comics. 'Oh by the way the best Marvel villain isn't even in the films'.

In fact don't do any more films at all. Just do comics.

In fact do nothing. Nothing means anything.

We already had a fine live action Doctor Doom that can never be surpassed.

[Norton Canes]

The thing that gets me whenever there's hints or announcements that Marvel is thinking of moving towards smaller budget, more character focused superhero movies is that "superheroes" is a genre that's built around big expensive spectacle - the whole point is that it's people doing expensive-to-film impossible things. If you want to go smaller and you still want people to come to your movie, you have to replace the spectacle with the kind of things Disney can't provide: sex, extreme violence, horror, intense drama, actual funny comedy, etc

Apologies if this has already been mentioned upthread but I get the impression that's what the new Daredevil series will be aiming for - at least, if they want it to be a anything like the Netflix version.

[madhair60]

And I know you won't like the above. But it's exactly the same idea, and just as ugly.

I think it's a little bit fucked up to equate with checkoutgirl said with racism. i do see what you're doing but it's not fair. it's not equivalent to what they said. not trying to be personal and can't be doing with arguing about it cos my mental health is rock bottom. but i couldn't ignore that.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Love this

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

The only good comic book film of recent times is Dredd. Everything else is drivel meant for absolute bumholes.

[Small Man Big Horse]

I think it's a little bit fucked up to equate with checkoutgirl said with racism. i do see what you're doing but it's not fair. it's not equivalent to what they said. not trying to be personal and can't be doing with arguing about it cos my mental health is rock bottom. but i couldn't ignore that.

I mean, I disagree, obviously. His argument was that women are ruining the Marvel tv shows and films, and it's such a sweeping generalisation I think it absolutely is fair to compare it to racism. I'm sorry your mental health is in such a shitty place (and mine is too) so I understand your not wanting to get in to an argument about it, but well, I feel I have a right to reply.

[madhair60]

you absolutely do. checkoutgirl's post struck me as an ill-advised attempt at making a tongue in cheek joke about thinking all the new doris-based* Marvel stuff is shit, rather than an actual incel solidarity gesture, so the comparison struck me as personally as unwarranted. i'm probably wrong! checkoutgirl probably hates women. either way, i'm just gonna go play Pitfall: The Lost Expedition for the Nintendo Gamecube.

*this is a CaB callback and therefore NOT sexist.

[bgmnts]

If you're feeling low @madhair60, go and watch Blade. Blade is the bees tits.

[Mister Six]

EDIT: I thought SMBH's edited post was the original. Fuck.

[madhair60]

^ this mix-up is exactly what i hoped wouldn't happen.

[Mister Six]

Oh no! I'm a fucking idiot. Sorry everyone.

The actual post is still fucking stupid though. She-Hulk has had comics of her own for decades. The Jane Thor storyline came from the comics and only lasted for one film. Thor gets a kid sidekick for all of five minutes at the end of the film and it'll be easy enough to write her out or age her up if they bring Thor back for his own film again, rather than quietly retiring him the way they have Hulk.

The real problem with "woke Marvel" isn't the idea of having a female Hawkeye or a black Captain America or whatever, it's that so often the new/upgraded cast members and their characters aren't as interesting or charismatic as the ones that came before (because they were initially cast in supporting roles). Anthony Mackie doesn't have the charisma of Chris Evans. Don Cheadle has plenty of charisma but Rhodey isn't as interesting a character as Tony was. And for every Florence Pugh you get a couple of whoever that nonentity was playing America Chavez. But it's more of a problem of execution than concept.

[Blumf]

What is the objection to the existence of a black Captain America or a black Spider-Man that isn't racist?

It suggests that black characters are incapable of existing in their own right, and need to piggy back on existing white characters to gain traction.

We know this to be false - Blade, Black Panther - so why hamper black actors with that baggage? Especially as the only reason seems to be a cheap hit at 'incels' for click-bait, rather than any genuine dramatic concept. You end up with badly written crap deflecting criticism onto black actors for a bullshit culture war. Nobody benefits.

Trans-White Panther! Eliot Page would be perfect. Got a problem? What do you mean the background to the character doesn't work any more? 'White saviour'? No no no, you must be transphobic! <cue millions of click-bait articles followed by a lacklustre box-office>

[bgmnts]

Yeah put me in the 'I'm a massive racist camp' on this one (AS PER LOL)

[13 schoolyards]

It suggests that black characters are incapable of existing in their own right, and need to piggy back on existing white characters to gain traction.

We know this to be false - Blade, Black Panther - so why hamper black actors with that baggage? Especially as the only reason seems to be a cheap hit at 'incels' for click-bait, rather than any genuine dramatic concept. You end up with badly written crap deflecting criticism onto black actors for a bullshit culture war. Nobody benefits.

Trans-White Panther! Eliot Page would be perfect. Got a problem? What do you mean the background to the character doesn't work any more? 'White saviour'? No no no, you must be transphobic! <cue millions of click-bait articles followed by a lacklustre box-office>

In theory I agree with this (just create new characters ffs) but I think the counter argument - that in our current pop culture environment / marketplace / whatever, established characters have a massive advantage and if you want to get diverse representation into the mainstream in our lifetimes then recasting previously white characters is the only realistic way to go - has some strong basis in fact.

The fact that this argument also suits the large corporations who already own all the popular characters and want to maintain their strangehold on pop culture is a bit shit though

[Mister Six]

What @13 schoolyards said. It's the old thing of "Affirmative action is patronising, let's not do it! And no, I won't do anything to change the underlying issues that make it necessary."

[phantom_power]

Oh no! I'm a fucking idiot. Sorry everyone.

The actual post is still fucking stupid though. She-Hulk has had comics of her own for decades. The Jane Thor storyline came from the comics and only lasted for one film. Thor gets a kid sidekick for all of five minutes at the end of the film and it'll be easy enough to write her out or age her up if they bring Thor back for his own film again, rather than quietly retiring him the way they have Hulk.

The real problem with "woke Marvel" isn't the idea of having a female Hawkeye or a black Captain America or whatever, it's that so often the new/upgraded cast members and their characters aren't as interesting or charismatic as the ones that came before (because they were initially cast in supporting roles). Anthony Mackie doesn't have the charisma of Chris Evans. Don Cheadle has plenty of charisma but Rhodey isn't as interesting a character as Tony was. And for every Florence Pugh you get a couple of whoever that nonentity was playing America Chavez. But it's more of a problem of execution than concept.

I suppose the thinking is that they are only doing these characters now to be "woke" and so aren't putting enough effort into making them interesting and dynamic in their own right, relying on the wokeness alone to be enough. I am not sure I full agree with that as Marvel films in general are in the doldrums creatively at the moment

[madhair60]

What @13 schoolyards said. It's the old thing of "Affirmative action is patronising, let's not do it! And no, I won't do anything to change the underlying issues that make it necessary."

hang on, who needs to change the underlying issues? is it not OK to think Thing Is Shit without also having to solve racism? am I completely missing the point here?

[13 schoolyards]

Thing is Shit but Corporate America Owns Thing and All the Other Media so Thing is the Only Thing They'll Serve Up but if You're Good Thing Will Now be Played by a More Diverse Actor

[Glebe]

Interesting article. Marvel have definitely lost their way. Quantumania was a particularly shitty disappointment.

[checkoutgirl]

I think it's a little bit fucked up to equate with checkoutgirl said with racism.

I appreciate it but personally I'm not getting into it. It's very difficult to have nuanced debates about this stuff so fuck that for a game of soldiers.

[MojoJojo]

The article seems to be saying that the problem is now Marvel Studios have taken over TV show duties, and have been pushed to make a lot of stuff to fill out Disney+, they're overworked and this is causing problems. Most obviously with VFX artists, but also script problems that should have been picked up on in preproduction having to be fixed in post. I hadn't realised the problems with She Hulk were so bad - most of the first episode was supposed to be a flashback in from episode 8!

Surprised that it sounds like She Hulk is going to get a second season, even if not officially greenlit yet. If they do I hope the get some writers in who know how to do courtroom drama, and they actually decide what it wants to be.

I'd like Ms Marvel to get a second season, but considering the low ratings of the first season, it's chances rely on the Marvels being a success so...