Tomb Raper

[Zetetic]

PUBLICITY does seem the most credible explanation of the exec's comments (as ever), indeed in part became I feel that there's been something of an exaggeration of the extent of threatened sexual violence toward Lara in the E3 demo. Particularly compared to her reactions towards the various other horribleness going on, not least the deaths that she's responsible for.  It's very different to Frank Miller's retconning in that alone.

That doesn't really impact on SNG's broader problem with Lara's new 'origin'; I mean it does have a bloody voiceover from her father.

P.S. Trespasser's protagonist? Although she does keep hallucinating John Hammond's autobiography audiobook. Bonus points for making her breasts a functional part of the UI, surely...

[Theremin]

Aren't you having your cake and eating it a bit? It's not as if cliched male characters gender is ever really addressed, so why should we address it with female characters (unless it's part of the story).

I see how you'd think that, but it's not as if in past games the fact that protagonist are male has tended to have no effect.

Historically, 90% of player characters have tended to be male, the stereotypes associated with men (strength, self-reliance, protection of weaker characters, etc) have affected the way games and game writing has developed. It's no accident that lots of games feature a lone male protagonist fighting (and killing) a large humber of enemies. That's a very stereotypical 'male power' fantasy, and the fact that it, along with similar plots (save the princess, avenge the death of your spouse) are used so often shows how much of an effect gender and gender assumptions have on game development.

When it comes to games that are heavily story-based, I don't think it's really enough to pretend that there are no differences at all between genders, although technically, that is still prefeable to what we have now.

The ideal is that you'd have games that are able to address and acknowledge the fact that people of different genders do occupy different roles and positions in society, and that people react differently to them because of that. The crux is just getting writers to do this in a way that isn't idiotic, sterotypical, or offensive.

[Theremin]

No, I mean FemShep is literally DudeShep with tits. As in, a last minute addition and all the mocap was done for a dude. She walks like a dude, talks like a dude, even sits watching dancing girls exactly like a dude.

You're not wrong. Still, it is somewhat saved by Jennifer Hale's voice acting.

I'm afraid I haven't actually played ME3 yet (Skyrim and DF are about all I have time to play right now).

They did do a new face, and some new box art, no idea about the mo-cap though.

Digressing, you really would think that the popularity of femshep would disprove the Tomb Raider developer's assumption that gamers only identify with female characters if they want to 'protect' them.

Even though femshep is just (effectively) a re-skin of a generic sci-fi protagonist, she still managed to garner a large enough fanbase that Bioware felt the need to add new assets to ME3's development because of it. And you can hardly argue that a gun-toting space marine ( who just happens to have a vagina) in any way screams 'help me'.

[RickyGerbail]

how the femshep or the maleshep could garner any sort of following is beyond me but you can aparently animate a flying turd and get a fanbase for that.

[Theremin]

Hey fuck you, man, I love astroturd.

[MojoJojo]

Digressing, you really would think that the popularity of femshep would disprove the Tomb Raider developer's assumption that gamers only identify with female characters if they want to 'protect' them.

Even though femshep is just (effectively) a re-skin of a generic sci-fi protagonist, she still managed to garner a large enough fanbase that Bioware felt the need to add new assets to ME3's development because of it. And you can hardly argue that a gun-toting space marine ( who just happens to have a vagina) in any way screams 'help me'.

I think femshep was largely underplayed in the first (or possible 2) game, and the extra effort bioware put into the female shepard was to try and correct that and/or give a story for publicity.

Can't find a reference to that underplayed "fact" on the first page of google though.

[Theremin]

I think femshep was largely underplayed in the first (or possible 2) game, and the extra effort bioware put into the female shepard was to try and correct that and/or give a story for publicity.

Can't find a reference to that underplayed "fact" on the first page of google though.

No, you're right. I remember listening to a developer interview where they said that femshep in ME1 was put in under the assumption that no-one would want play as her, hence the fact that maleshep had a proper, motion captured man face.

[RickyGerbail]

in my game the main character is a psychopath who's escaped authorities and crashlanded on a newly colonized planet. the player will slowly realize over time what a crazy character they're playing. it's like fookin American Psycho in space.

[Thursday]

No, you're right. I remember listening to a developer interview where they said that femshep in ME1 was put in under the assumption that no-one would want play as her, hence the fact that maleshep had a proper, motion captured man face.

Because of course, there's no precedent for female action hero's in space adventures.

[Theremin]

Oh, there is, they're just not demographically significant(!).

[biggytitbo]

I'm not sure why rape has to be seen as some major statement about something though, rather than a realistic dramatic consequence of the situation a character finds itself in. Again, I think, if it had just happened in the game without the hype I think most people would have just gone with the story without all the fuss.

[Mister Six]

I'm not sure why rape has to be seen as some major statement about something though, rather than a realistic dramatic consequence of the situation a character finds itself in.

#

The designers chose to put her in that 'realistic' situation, though. And it's fucking Tomb Raider! Lara Croft should be shooting T-Rexes and Atlantean god-monsters, not worrying that criminals are going to shaft her.

Plus, as mentioned, tying sequences like this into Lara's origin story plays into nasty misogynistic conventions about female heroes having to suffer and endure (particularly sexual) violent acts to earn the 'right' to be strong, whereas male characters get to just be heroes (or, at most, lose a family member or two).

[Retinend]

Plus, as mentioned, tying sequences like this into Lara's origin story plays into nasty misogynistic conventions about female heroes having to suffer and endure (particularly sexual) violent acts to earn the 'right' to be strong, whereas male characters get to just be heroes (or, at most, lose a family member or two).

This convention is inherently misogynist? Is Quentin Tarantino a misogynist for using this plot device in "Kill Bill"?

[Theremin]

This convention is inherently misogynist? Is Quentin Tarantino a misogynist for using this plot device in "Kill Bill"?

Probably not.

Kill Bill was (broadly) a pastiche of martial arts/revenge films, and the plot point most likely would have come from exploitation films of those genres. Considering the film's self-conscious use of similar tropes, it's doubtful Tarantino would have used it unironically.

Also, wasn't the Bride already an assassin and expert martial-artist before she was attacked? If so, the point's moot.

[Dark Sky]

I don't really understand why a plot device where an abused woman becomes a strong person is misogynistic.  Surely someone rising up from abuse should be seen as being a positive thing?

[Theremin]

I think it's because, in most uses, it's implied that the only way a woman can become strong, is to first be 'damaged'.

Men, of course, are strong inherently.[nb]Hello women reading this I don't hate you.[/nb]

[Dark Sky]

Where is it implied that that's the "only way" a woman can be strong, please?

[The Region Legion]

Where is it implied that that's the "only way" a woman can be strong, please?

In the fact that very few inherently strong female characters exist in video games. Lara Croft, despite her proportions, was actually one of the better ones and now she needs to have been "broken" before becoming that person. I think that's the general complaint - that they could have simply made her a very strong woman and it wouldn't have hurt the game at all.

[Retinend]

Kill Bill was (broadly) a pastiche of martial arts/revenge films, and the plot point most likely would have come from exploitation films of those genres. Considering the film's self-conscious use of similar tropes, it's doubtful Tarantino would have used it unironically.

Also, wasn't the Bride already an assassin and expert martial-artist before she was attacked? If so, the point's moot.

I experienced a very intense emotional connection to Uma Thurman's character through the scene of her attempted rape. I didn't see the scene as an ironic pastiche. Not to say that you did - I'm just explaining why I think Kill Bill is a good counterexample to Mr. Six's theory.  It depicts a woman's struggle from weakness to strength with an attempted rape as a landmark in her "journey."

Lest we forget, "misogyny" means "hatred of women." Do proponents of this theory want to claim that it is a hatred of women that drives depictions of them as more vulnerable than men? It's hardly the misogynists who are the first to highlight how vulnerable to abuse women are.

[Dark Sky]

In the fact that very few inherently strong female characters exist in video games. Lara Croft, despite her proportions, was actually one of the better ones and now she needs to have been "broken" before becoming that person. I think that's the general complaint - that they could have simply made her a very strong woman and it wouldn't have hurt the game at all.

Why does having the character, in a cutscene, be threatened with rape, hurt the game at all?

They've deliberately decided to show a more vunerable side to Lara Croft in this game; the original publicity shots showed her blackened and bruised, covered in cuts and scrapes.  As far as I can tell from the very little I've read about it (mostly from the article linked to in the original post of this thread) they're trying to show a more fragile side to Lara in an attempt to make the player empathise with her.  I personally think that's an interesting thing for them to try to do, to engage with the character on an emotional, rather than physical level.

[The Region Legion]

They've deliberately decided to show a more vunerable side to Lara Croft in this game; the original publicity shots showed her blackened and bruised, covered in cuts and scrapes.  As far as I can tell from the very little I've read about it (mostly from the article linked to in the original post of this thread) they're trying to show a more fragile side to Lara in an attempt to make the player empathise with her.  I personally think that's an interesting thing for them to try to do, to engage with the character on an emotional, rather than physical level.

I am in partial agreement with you but it seems that for some people they would have preferred there not be a rape QTE - as others have pointed out, what exactly happens if you fail the QTE? Very unpleasant, and using rape as a promotion tool is just massively insensitive.

[Cerys]

It's almost certainly going to be a cut scene.

[Zetetic]

Do you reckon Nathan Grayson was mistaken? (Edit: Or that he wasn't and they'll change it?)

[Cerys]

Nah, that's just how he wanted it to be, in his wildest wank-fuelled dreams.

[Dark Sky]

I am in partial agreement with you but it seems that for some people they would have preferred there not be a rape QTE - as others have pointed out, what exactly happens if you fail the QTE?

Hang on...  It's a QTE?  I've completely missed that.  I thought it was a cinematic?  Not sure how I feel about that.  At the very least, it's a blessing it's an event you have to actively avoid, rather than being a game where you're trying to rape other people.  I might be more offended by the fact that QTE are a terrible blight on video games.

Very unpleasant, and using rape as a promotion tool is just massively insensitive.

But is it "using rape" as promotional tool? I don't think they're saying, "she almost gets raped, come buy it!!!", are they?  They're saying (or at least, trying to say), we've tried to show Lara as being a more fragile individual; she's more realistic and human than in the other games, and the player need to look after her to keep her alive.

What about any film which heavily features rape in it?   (Off the top of my head: Straw Dogs, Irreversible, Last House on the Left, Boys Don't Cry, A Streetcar Named Desire, A Ma Soeur, Rosemary's Baby)   Are they insensitive, for using rape as crucial material for their plots?  Or is it that films are art and so that's fine, they're allowed to do that (even the schlocky horror ones), and video games are just mindless tech demos played by horny fourteen year old boys who want to have their sexually charged female avatars unsullied by depictions of nasty, shocking, emotional sexual violence?  Perhaps video games have no place with dealing with mature themes, especially when they're trivialised into button mashing QTEs?

[Theremin]

I experienced a very intense emotional connection to Uma Thurman's character through the scene of her attempted rape.

Attempted rape?

I was talking about the bit at the start of Vol. 1 where Bill and the other assassins attack her on her wedding day.

[Retinend]

Well it isn't actually attempted rape. I don't really want to describe it here but I'm sure you'll remember if you read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia.

[Theremin]

Oh, right, yeah.

Spoiler alert

Buck.

[close]

I don't think that particular example counts as an instance of the trope we're talking about here, as it's never implied that the experience somehow turns the Bride into a 'stronger' person.

[Theremin]

Where is it implied that that's the "only way" a woman can be strong, please?

Where in what?

I was talking about the historical use of that trope in media. Recently, it's mostly been used in horror and action movies. There's an entire sub-genre of horror called 'Rape-revenge'.

It's also in almost every slasher film ever to have been released. Woman gets attacked by murderer, is not capable/strong enough to defeat them, it's only after a horrible ordeal (usually involving injuries and the deaths of people she cares about) that she is able to somehow kill the antagonist.

Back to Tomb Raider:

Crucially, the point here that's problematic isn't the implication that an female character can go on to be strong after having suffered, but rather that she becomes strong only because she has suffered.

Also, when I say 'abused' I should clarify I'm referring to both physical and sexual violence, though the former is more common with this trope.

[Thursday]

To be fair we're not sure of the exact context that's been used, whether it's a cut-scene or QTE or both.

I think part of the problem is that rape is a very cheap and easy way to provoke emotion and sympathy from the audience. If you're going to have a rape scene then there should actually be a good reason for it. How much impact is the rape scene going to have on the plot and Lara's character development, or it just going to be one trauma among many others that game throws at her. It doesn't seem like something they've thought about in that much depth.