TRUMP No. 9: A weird fucking bumble hex

[kngen]

TBH, I can see where Twed .. sorry, Dewt is coming from. If state agencies can come together to dig up dirt on Trump (which obviously wasn't that hard) to put together a case that he's unfit for office, they can do it to President Sanders, too - and he'd be getting it from his own party into the bargain.

It's quite interesting to see that every mention of the Biden/Ukraine angle put forward by Trump et al in most mainstream press outlets is preceded by terms such as 'disproven', 'discredited', 'unfounded'. Really? I doubt there's much more to the story than Biden using his political clout to find a nice earner for his crack-addled son to keep him out of trouble, but heads have rolled for less (or they used to).

That said, it's enjoyable seeing Trump continue to unravel (so long as he doesn't kill us all in one final Caligula-esque fit of madness), but this sanctification of Congress and their commissions' infallible, incorruptible powers of judgment is fucking laughable. Trump seems to have brought about a collective amnesia that has erased so many whitewashes from history - Iran-Contra, WMDs, 9/11 (there was more time and money spent on investigating the Challenger shuttle disaster than on scrutinising the largest ever terrorist attack on American soil - I don't think you need to be in the 'steel doesn't melt' camp to find that a little odd).

[Dewt]

That said, it's enjoyable seeing Trump continue to unravel (so long as he doesn't kill us all in one final Caligula-esque fit of madness), but this sanctification of Congress and their commissions' infallible, incorruptible powers of judgment is fucking laughable. Trump seems to have brought about a collective amnesia that has erased so many whitewashes from history - Iran-Contra, WMDs, 9/11 (there was more time and money spent on investigating the Challenger shuttle disaster than on scrutinising the largest ever terrorist attack on American soil - I don't think you need to be in the 'steel doesn't melt' camp to find that a little odd).

That's exactly it. It's the selectivity of this that highlights why it's frustrating. The powerful have decided what we care about, and it highlights Trump's purpose in the big political machine.

Okay, that's good enough, I am now banned from this thread.

[Pdine]

TBH, I can see where Twed .. sorry, Dewt is coming from. If state agencies can come together to dig up dirt on Trump (which obviously wasn't that hard) to put together a case that he's unfit for office, they can do it to President Sanders, too - and he'd be getting it from his own party into the bargain.

Not really getting this... the 'dirt' in the case of Trump is real. If a putative President Sanders also had real 'dirt', wouldn't it be good for it to be made public?

It's quite interesting to see that every mention of the Biden/Ukraine angle put forward by Trump et al in most mainstream press outlets is preceded by terms such as 'disproven', 'discredited', 'unfounded'. Really? I doubt there's much more to the story than Biden using his political clout to find a nice earner for his crack-addled son to keep him out of trouble, but heads have rolled for less (or they used to).

You should look into it; it's not as you seem to assume, at least according to current publicly available information.

That said, it's enjoyable seeing Trump continue to unravel (so long as he doesn't kill us all in one final Caligula-esque fit of madness), but this sanctification of Congress and their commissions' infallible, incorruptible powers of judgment is fucking laughable.

What 'sanctification'? Is it not acceptable to investigate something? Is that too pious an activity?

Trump seems to have brought about a collective amnesia that has erased so many whitewashes from history - Iran-Contra, WMDs, 9/11 (there was more time and money spent on investigating the Challenger shuttle disaster than on scrutinising the largest ever terrorist attack on American soil - I don't think you need to be in the 'steel doesn't melt' camp to find that a little odd).

Investigations are complex or not, expensive or not according to their subject not their subjective importance, and of course Iran-Contra and the failure to find WMDs in Iraq were both investigated at huge expense.

[Pdine]

That's exactly it. It's the selectivity of this that highlights why it's frustrating. The powerful have decided what we care about, and it highlights Trump's purpose in the big political machine.

'Why are we paying for cancer care when people are homeless?'

[Dewt]

"Let's actively continue doing things that cause people to die of cancer while we divert all resources to investigating why somebody broke the terms of their leasing agreement"

[Pdine]

"Let's actively continue doing things that cause people to die of cancer while we divert all resources to investigating why somebody broke the terms of their leasing agreement"

If it were 'all resources', you might have a point, but it isn't.

[Mister Six]

You could certainly do more to 'fix' politics, but impeachment is about not letting the most powerful act to break it. When we say: 'we should ignore misuse of power because there are other problems out there' whom exactly are we helping?

This. I agree with Twed about the fucking mess that is the US political system, and the cynical reasons for which this impeachment is being pursued, but that doesn't mean the act of impeaching Trump over the Ukraine stuff and interfering with the subsequent investigation is without merit. Just because you can't prosecute the crimes you'd like to prosecute doesn't mean you shouldn't prosecute any at all.

Also, as was pointed out yesterday, Trump's impeachment can render him ineligible for presidential pardons, which is a Good Thing.

[kngen]

Not really getting this... the 'dirt' in the case of Trump is real. If a putative President Sanders also had real 'dirt', wouldn't it be good for it to be made public?

Compared to US and US-sanctioned activities in Central and South America, and the cover-ups thereof - and indeed Afghanistan, as seen most recently, it's pretty small and twatty (much like what Nixon went down for). The point is that its entirely arbitrary. I want shot of that moron as much as anyone. I'm just deeply sceptical about the using state agents as the tools to do so.

You should look into it; it's not as you seem to assume, at least according to current publicly available information.

This is the opening paragraph from a Reuters piece that actually exonerates him in regards to the Trump conspiracy theory.

During his time on the board of one of Ukraine's largest natural gas companies, Hunter Biden, the son of former U.S. Vice-President Joe Biden, was regarded as a helpful non-executive director with a powerful name, according to people familiar with Biden's role at the company.

That's enough of a conflict of interest - under usual circumstances - to warrant some kind of official bi-partisan investigation. I don't think I'm really going out on a limb there.

What 'sanctification'? Is it not acceptable to investigate something? Is that too pious an activity?

You should look into it. There's more than enough dreary WaPo and NYT op-eds floating around painting Pelosi as some sort of Joan of Arc figure upholding truth, justice and the American way, despite - as Twed pointed out - letting GWB off the hook with WMDs, among many other examples of selective myopia when it comes to transgressions both within her party and across the aisle.

Of course they should investigate - it's the pure good vs immeasurable evil narrative that's laughable.

Investigations are complex or not, expensive or not according to their subject not their subjective importance, and of course Iran-Contra and the failure to find WMDs in Iraq were both investigated at huge expense.

And the end result was ... ? Broadsheet editors staring at the ground and mumbling apologies while the perpetrators gets cushy gigs as talking heads on cable news channels doesn't really count as justice, as far I'm concerned.

[Pdine]

Compared to US and US-sanctioned activities in Central and South America, and the cover-ups thereof - and indeed Afghanistan, as seen most recently, it's pretty small and twatty (much like what Nixon went down for). The point is that its entirely arbitrary. I want shot of that moron as much as anyone. I'm just deeply sceptical about the using state agents as the tools to do so.

Unless you want him assassinated it's about the only possibility before the next election.

This is the opening paragraph from a Reuters piece that actually exonerates him in regards to the Trump conspiracy theory... That's enough of a conflict of interest - under usual circumstances - to warrant some kind of official bi-partisan investigation. I don't think I'm really going out on a limb there.

...but the allegations are not about getting Hunter a job at Burisma (and indeed that quote only points out the obvious - that well-known surnames get people jobs). The allegations are about the dismissal of Prosecutor Victor Shokin. Biden admits / boasts about using political pressure to get Shokin fired, but then no-one except Shokin denies that Shokin was a corrupt twat. Shokin's office oversaw an investigation into the oligarch who owns Burisma, which is the sliver that Guiliani etc are trying to hang the allegations on. However the Obama administration - of which Biden was obviously part - were pressing to have Burisma investigated too. There's just no actual evidence against Biden, which is why people keep saying that. Some may emerge, but there's none out there now and Guiliani has repeatedly trailed then failed to produce any.

You should look into it. There's more than enough dreary WaPo and NYT op-eds floating around painting Pelosi as some sort of Joan of Arc figure upholding truth, justice and the American way, despite - as Twed pointed out - letting GWB off the hook with WMDs, among many other examples of selective myopia when it comes to transgressions both within her party and across the aisle.

GWB was investigated at great length, but the people around him were relatively smart and so the investigation found potential dishonesty and definite idiocy. He wasn't 'let off the hook', his administration avoided the hook through careful effort.

Of course they should investigate - it's the pure good vs immeasurable evil narrative that's laughable.

I don't see that as the narrative, in the media I consume anyway. That would be ridiculous of course, but I assume you're overstating.

And the end result was ... ? Broadsheet editors staring at the ground and mumbling apologies while the perpetrators gets cushy gigs as talking heads on cable news channels doesn't really count as justice, as far I'm concerned.

I think you're confusing what you wanted to happen with what the evidence supported. Personally I think that Tony Blair deliberately lied to get us into a war, but multiple lengthy, immensely expensive and painstaking inquiries failed to push that allegation over the line into being proven, so I have to be clear that my belief and what can be proved are two different things. Otherwise you just end up saying: 'investigations are pointless because they fail to confirm my personal hypotheses' which is obviously just solipsism.

[kngen]

...but the allegations are not about getting Hunter a job at Burisma (and indeed that quote only points out the obvious - that well-known surnames get people jobs). The allegations are about the dismissal of Prosecutor Victor Shokin. Biden admits / boasts about using political pressure to get Shokin fired, but then no-one except Shokin denies that Shokin was a corrupt twat. Shokin's office oversaw an investigation into the oligarch who owns Burisma, which is the sliver that Guiliani etc are trying to hang the allegations on. However the Obama administration - of which Biden was obviously part - were pressing to have Burisma investigated too. There's just no actual evidence against Biden, which is why people keep saying that. Some may emerge, but there's none out there now and Guiliani has repeatedly trailed then failed to produce any.

I'll repeat, I doubt there's much more to the story than Biden using his political clout to find a nice earner for his crack-addled son to keep him out of trouble, but heads have rolled for less (or they used to).

I think you're confusing what you wanted to happen with what the evidence supported. Personally I think that Tony Blair deliberately lied to get us into a war, but multiple lengthy, immensely expensive and painstaking inquiries failed to push that allegation over the line into being proven, so I have to be clear that my belief and what can be proved are two different things. Otherwise you just end up saying: 'investigations are pointless because they fail to confirm my personal hypotheses' which is obviously just solipsism.

No, what I'm saying is that the establishment/state will protect their own or hang people out to dry (often after they've died, conveniently) entirely arbitrarily depending on what is most expedient at that point in time. I don't think the investigations are pointless, because the truth (or what was suspected to be true) is often buried in there somewhere. And while there is no shortage of obfuscation, rarely is there accountability. I need only think of the Hillsborough inquiry as an example. By the standards you have stated, that would begin and end with the Taylor Report.

[kngen]

I don't see that as the narrative, in the media I consume anyway. That would be ridiculous of course, but I assume you're overstating.

I honestly just stumbled across this in the Guardian while eating lunch.

The other reason that the American ideal has endured is the country's system of government. American political institutions – the presidency, Congress, the system of federalism and the supreme court – have often been the engines of injustice, but they have also proven their ability to stamp it out. More importantly for our present moment, they have prevented the emergence of a tyranny which might forever blot out any hope of deepening and strengthening America's commitment to its highest ideals.

You can almost hear 'America, the Beautiful' being sung earnestly in the background. What absolute shite!

[Head Gardener]

[Urinal Cake]

Biden had three things going for him:
1. He was with neoliberal, political consensus
2. It was about loan guarantees not proper aid-aid
3. There is no evidence of influence

Sure Biden and his Byronic son should've made to quit but fuck so should Trump's fail family too. And we're not too late to do something about the latter.

[Mobius]

The biggest Christian outlet in America, founded by that Billy Graham who Trump has sucked up to on numerous occasions, has slagged off Trump

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/475386-christian-today-editorial-board-calls-for-trump-to-be-removed

Weird how he was a good Christian up until now ... but hey it's something.

[steve98]

They haven't half slagged him off:

"His Twitter feed alone...is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost & confused...None of the president's positives can balance the moral & political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character." - Christianity Today.

They're callin' for his removal :)

Excellent stuff (Fuck knows what his "positives" are though)

[bgmnts]

He hates all foreigners and women and probably gays. Christians probably get behind that.

[Pdine]

I'll repeat, I doubt there's much more to the story than Biden using his political clout to find a nice earner for his crack-addled son to keep him out of trouble, but heads have rolled for less (or they used to).

...but as I said, we know that a CV with 'Biden' on it is likely to get special treatment without any overt intervention from the VP, and that's all the piece you quoted implied.

No, what I'm saying is that the establishment/state will protect their own or hang people out to dry (often after they've died, conveniently) entirely arbitrarily depending on what is most expedient at that point in time. I don't think the investigations are pointless, because the truth (or what was suspected to be true) is often buried in there somewhere. And while there is no shortage of obfuscation, rarely is there accountability. I need only think of the Hillsborough inquiry as an example. By the standards you have stated, that would begin and end with the Taylor Report.

No, it wouldn't; no more than the Iraq investigation ended with the Butler Report. Sometimes investigations are reopened when new information is made available, sometimes different aspects of a matter warrant separate investigations, and sometimes - as with Hillsborough or Bloody Sunday - public opinion demands that the same evidence is gone over multiple times. Those latter cases are strong arguments against investigations being arbitrary or merely deployed by the ruling class to its own advantage.

[Pdine]

I honestly just stumbled across this in the Guardian while eating lunch.

You can almost hear 'America, the Beautiful' being sung earnestly in the background. What absolute shite!

Sorry - your actual quote says:

American political institutions – the presidency, Congress, the system of federalism and the supreme court – have often been the engines of injustice

which is your point surely? You just seem allergic to any kind of positive reference to government, even when seriously and reasonably qualified.

[brat-sampson]

Show that Christian Today article to any actual Trump supporter and see them disregard it as a Librul rag. They're probably still just mad Hillary lost.

[Fambo Number Mive]

He hates all foreigners and women and probably gays. Christians probably get behind that.

The vast majority don't get behind Trumps bigotry. Tony Benm was a Christian, as were other radical politicians. There are Christians of all political views, and most of them dont support Trump or his values. Consider the involvement of the Quakers in the peace movement for example.

[EOLAN]

The vast majority don't get behind Trumps bigotry. Tony Benm was a Christian, as were other radical politicians. There are Christians of all political views, and most of them dont support Trump or his values. Consider the involvement of the Quakers in the peace movement for example.

Sure wasn't good old NIxon a Quaker himself.

[Ferris]

Sure wasn't good old NIxon a Quaker himself.

Yeah, they're not all porridge and old fashioned hats

[Urinal Cake]

Sure wasn't good old NIxon a Quaker himself.

And he was from California.

[steve98]

Quake-Center

[kngen]

Sometimes investigations are reopened when new information is made available, sometimes different aspects of a matter warrant separate investigations, and sometimes - as with Hillsborough or Bloody Sunday - public opinion demands that the same evidence is gone over multiple times. Those latter cases are strong arguments against investigations being arbitrary or merely deployed by the ruling class to its own advantage.

To refer paraphrase your other post, you seem allergic to the possibility that a state entity investigating itself could be anything other than objective, which is, at the very least, incredibly naïve. You cite the public opinion that pressures the state into reopening inquiries - do you think they're saying: 'Mmm, missed a bit there, old chap. Shall we have another go?' or are they crying foul, whitewash, conspiracy, cover-up? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how people having to dedicate their entire lives to seek justice for their dead or dying relatives (whether it be Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Gulf War syndrome, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, whatever) from a largely indifferent establishment who'd rather they'd just shut up and move on is an efficient system of checks and balances.

Sorry - your actual quote says:

"American political institutions – the presidency, Congress, the system of federalism and the supreme court – have often been the engines of injustice"


which is your point surely? You just seem allergic to any kind of positive reference to government, even when seriously and reasonably qualified.

Let's take a look at that sentence in full:

The other reason that the American ideal has endured is the country's system of government. American political institutions – the presidency, Congress, the system of federalism and the supreme court – have often been the engines of injustice, but they have also proven their ability to stamp it out.

Hey everyone! Institutional racial injustice has been stamped out! Let's get rid of those boring old voter suppression laws - we don't need them anymore! Patriot Act and Patriot Act II - we're stamping out the injustice of your government not listening to you (whether you're aware of it or not). Don't worry about the slow, steady erosion of habeas corpus and due process in general, my Muslim friends - we'll get round to stamping out that injustice soon enough!

As for this pure pablum:

More importantly for our present moment, they have prevented the emergence of a tyranny which might forever blot out any hope of deepening and strengthening America's commitment to its highest ideals.

This is the sort of sophistry they inculcate my daughter with in second grade - where the Founding Fathers are a mystical force for good, rather than a bunch of slave-owning cunts whose primary goal was to actually stop anyone apart from the land-owning gentry from exercising their democratic rights. When that's the benchmark, I honestly don't know what America's highest ideals are other than: 'Fuck you, pay me.'

[Pdine]

To refer paraphrase your other post, you seem allergic to the possibility that a state entity investigating itself could be anything other than objective, which is, at the very least, incredibly naïve.

No... I don't think I've ever said these kind of investigations are perfect, just that we shouldn't write them off as innately pointless, random or corrupt.

You cite the public opinion that pressures the state into reopening inquiries - do you think they're saying: 'Mmm, missed a bit there, old chap. Shall we have another go?' or are they crying foul, whitewash, conspiracy, cover-up? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how people having to dedicate their entire lives to seek justice for their dead or dying relatives (whether it be Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Gulf War syndrome, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, whatever) from a largely indifferent establishment who'd rather they'd just shut up and move on is an efficient system of checks and balances.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with here... See above point...

Let's take a look at that sentence in full:

The other reason that the American ideal has endured is the country's system of government. American political institutions – the presidency, Congress, the system of federalism and the supreme court – have often been the engines of injustice, but they have also proven their ability to stamp it out.

Hey everyone! Institutional racial injustice has been stamped out! Let's get rid of those boring old voter suppression laws - we don't need them anymore! Patriot Act and Patriot Act II - we're stamping out the injustice of your government not listening to you (whether you're aware of it or not). Don't worry about the slow, steady erosion of habeas corpus and due process in general, my Muslim friends - we'll get round to stamping out that injustice soon enough!

I think you're misreading that: it's just saying that the state can create injustice but also eliminate it. What's to object to? You're placing heavy emphasis on the latter, which the source doesn't have (unless you're reading 'stamp it out' to mean 'stamp out all injustice forever' which seems injustified).

[The Culture Bunker]

This is the sort of sophistry they inculcate my daughter with in second grade - where the Founding Fathers are a mystical force for good, rather than a bunch of slave-owning cunts whose primary goal was to actually stop anyone apart from the land-owning gentry from exercising their democratic rights.

Reminds me of when I visited Boston a few years back and noted the big deal they make of there being where the whole revolution thing kicked off - the "Freedom Trail" and whatnot. One time, I visited this graveyard right in the middle of the city, there was some huge memorial stone to John Hancock, with some tiny, insignificant marker for his "manservant" next to it. I commented to my friend that I assumed he was a "unpaid, contract for life" kind of employee - she gave a sarcastic chuckle and said that, as an African-American (who can trace her ancestry back to slavery) you almost got immune to that kind of nonsense in US history if you didn't want to feel pissed off all the time. 

[bgmnts]

The vast majority don't get behind Trumps bigotry. Tony Benm was a Christian, as were other radical politicians. There are Christians of all political views, and most of them dont support Trump or his values. Consider the involvement of the Quakers in the peace movement for example.

Pretty sure there is a largr right wing culture throughout most christian denominations in the US.

[Alberon]

Trump has responded to the 'Christianity Today' editorial in his usual calm and measured manner.

A far left magazine, or very "progressive," as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn't been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather.....

....have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President. No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it's not even close. You'll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won't be reading ET again!

ET?

I do hope he continues to pick fights with Christian organisations, though.

[Mister Six]

It was an evangelical publication, and they don't trend towards social progressiveness. TBH it was blatantly a last-minute attempt to avoid being on the wrong side of history. They were quite happy to stick with Trump so long as he pushed their concerns about abortion, gay people not being strung up from lampposts etc, but now he's facing actual official reprimand (as doomed as it might be) they want to distance themselves - and pretending this is a step too far is how they're going to do it.