3 questions making me bug eyed.

[Felatio Imperative]

1) Does Justin Lee Collins really put on that accent?

2) Is it misogynistic, or as it used to be called, 'sexist', to say that men are better at comedy than women?

3) Why are Paramount comedy ad breaks so bloody loud? I always thought that was illegal.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Q2 is obviously a matter of opinion, but I'd say it was quite sexist, yes.  

You raised some rather dodgy opinions on the issue of race in the recent past, I seem to remember. Are you undergoing some kind of moral crisis?

[Brutus Beefcake]

Ads are generally louder than programmes, they compress the audio to get your attention.

[Felatio Imperative]

Q2 is obviously a matter of opinion, but I'd say it was quite sexist, yes.  

You raised some rather dodgy opinions on the issue of race in the recent past, I seem to remember. Are you undergoing some kind of moral crisis?

Not really. I have highlighted the homophobia inducive to black culture, and the double standards surrounding it, on the general thread, but only as they've affected me personally. I can only say it as I see it, and I won't apologise for that.
As for question number 2, all my favourite comedians are male, and going through this site I don't see too many women featuring highly on anyone elses list either. I wonder whether natural conclusions can be drawn, or whether it's all too unpalatable to contemplate. Guess I got my answer.

[Brutus Beefcake]

I think minorities get away with their own prejudices because people are worried that criticizing them will make them appear racist.

[Felatio Imperative]

I think minorities get away with their own prejudices because people are worried that criticizing them will make them appear racist.

That's pretty much the way I see it as well.

[Brutus Beefcake]

Oh, and older programs tend to have lower audio levels so that might be why the advert seem especially loud on Paramount.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Not really. I have highlighted the homophobia inducive to black culture, and the double standards surrounding it, on the general thread, but only as they've affected me personally. I can only say it as I see it, and I won't apologise for that

Nor should you. I was more concerned about the few occasions you raised the issue of race when the subject wasn't even being discussed just to make some glib comment, where you either criticized this forum for being overly PC or made some rather ambiguous, worrying remark about black people. I think this was in the World Cup thread. This, following on from that has made me a little suspicious of you. It seems to be a recurring theme that you like to discuss. You'll notice I'm not openly accusing you of being racist/sexist or anything, it's just the regularity of these type of comments from you that's made me a little dubious.

I think minorities get away with their own prejudices because people are worried that criticizing them will make them appear racist.

I also think this is true to an extent, though we as White British people shouldn't feel like it's our sole responsibility to root out prejudice and we're hardly an authority on it ourselves. Ingrained homophobia exists in all societies across the world.

[Brutus Beefcake]

I think minorities get away with their own prejudices because people are worried that criticizing them will make them appear racist.

I also think this is true to an extent, though we as White British people shouldn't feel like it's our sole responsibility to root out prejudice and we're hardly an authority on it ourselves. Ingrained homophobia exists in all societies across the world.

No but as human beings we should all try to root out any ingrained prejudice culture or society.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Of course. And homophobia remains a more difficult problem to get rid of in cultures where religion is so dominant.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

The ads aren't actually louder than the loudest bits of the preceding show, but they're processed so they're more consistently hitting the peak volume level - like a thick band of sound.

Lots of American TV shows - particularly chat shows - are compressed in the same way as the adverts, which is why shows can really grate after a while.

[Brutus Beefcake]

Yeah they're compressed, that's what I just said.

[JesusAndYourBush]

They are louder, despite what representatives of the ad companies say whenever they're interviewed.  If you take a 30 minute programme and normalise the volume (like you'd do in an audio editing program such as soundforge) then the loudest part is going to be the highest peak, which might be a sharp sound like an explosion, so the quieter parts of the programme are, erm, quieter.  If you normalise a 30 second ad then those 30 seconds are less likely to contain one high peak that would force the volume of the quieter parts to be lower.  That means the highest peak in an ad might be the same volume as the highest peak in the tv show, but the high peak in the show might be an explosion which isn't representative of the volume of the show as a whole, so although technically you might be able to say they're the same volume level, we all can hear that they aren't.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Brutus - I know you'd said they're compressed, but quite a few people wouldn't know what that means - and to get all technical, they're actually more likely to be hard-limited.

Jesus - I see exactly what you mean, but the fact they sound louder is an aural illusion.

What ever the technicalities, I think we can all agree it is cock.

[Utter Shit]

1) Does Justin Lee Collins really put on that accent?

2) Is it misogynistic, or as it used to be called, 'sexist', to say that men are better at comedy than women?

3) Why are Paramount comedy ad breaks so bloody loud? I always thought that was illegal.

Don't know about 1 or 3, but in answer to 2...it's mysoginistic to say that men are better at comedy than women, but it's fair enough to say that (in your opinion) there are more good male comedians than female.

[Brutus Beefcake]

Brutus - I know you'd said they're compressed, but quite a few people wouldn't know what that means - and to get all technical, they're actually more likely to be hard-limited.

Jesus - I see exactly what you mean, but the fact they sound louder is an aural illusion.

What ever the technicalities, I think we can all agree it is cock.

Yeah you're right I should have elaborated, sorry for being tetchy.

[JesusAndYourBush]

Jesus - I see exactly what you mean, but the fact they sound louder is an aural illusion.

No, they are louder.

If you normalised the volume levels of a 30 minute show, the highest peaks will be the loud sounds like explosions, and the dialogue will be quieter.  It's supposed to be quieter because it's quiet dialogue and its quieter.

If you isolated just that bit of quiet dialogue and normalised it seperately then it'd be as loud as the commercial, but it'd sound stupid and out of place.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

But we're into a strange semantic world - In the traditional sense they are not louder - hold up a DB meter and they will both record the same highest peaks.

But yes they are more consistantley at that volume so in a sense if you were to work out an average volume, they would be much higher on that score.

Anyway in summery, it doesn't really matter because they sound louder and it's fucking annoying.

[Felatio Imperative]

Nor should you. I was more concerned about the few occasions you raised the issue of race when the subject wasn't even being discussed just to make some glib comment, where you either criticized this forum for being overly PC or made some rather ambiguous, worrying remark about black people. I think this was in the World Cup thread. This, following on from that has made me a little suspicious of you. It seems to be a recurring theme that you like to discuss. You'll notice I'm not openly accusing you of being racist/sexist or anything, it's just the regularity of these type of comments from you that's made me a little dubious.

I refute that. The world cup thread had a lot of discussions about culture and some so called 'ironic racism' eminating from the perception that some of the commentators were a bit insensitive. I considered it an appropriate thread to raise some points, that's all.
That race relations have become an industry, dependant on seeking out prejudice to survive, is to me a very worrying and dangerous occurence, and I could talk for hours as to why I think that way.
True, I have bulked at some very pc attitudes on this site, and lamented the general consensus on here that left wing comedy is cutting edge and revolutionary, whereas anything that dares make light of 'The Great Unmentionables Of Our Time' (race, religion (apart from Christianity, obviously), anything minority based) is dismissed as reactionary, bigoted etc.
I don't remember bringing up race in any other thread, certainly never on the comedy board, and I've made over 100 posts, so I certainly wouldn't call it a recurring theme. You raised the race issue here because I posed a legitimate question regarding the quality of female comedians. I guess you were waiting to pounce and took your chance when you saw me giving anything less than an easy ride to another of humanities self proclaimed endangered species.

[Oscar]

My take on Question 2: Men, on the whole, tend to care more about comedy. When growing up being funny is very important as a status symbol to boys, so they grow up spending a lot of time thinking about how to be funny. When girls are growing up, being funny is not really a good way to get attention (because girls are often thought to be a bit odd if they are funny) so they spend less energy thinking about it.
In order to be good at something you need to have spent a fair amount of time thinking about it (either directly or indirectly) so men tend to be better at being funny than women, just because they've put in the hours.
However, these are massive generalisations and plenty of women are very funny - I've known some women who are far funnier than funny guys, just because they are more subtle, less desperate to impress. But being funny doesn't mean that you want to get a job making people laugh and I think, on the whole, proffessional comedy is a less pleasant place to be for women than for men, so less women end up there.
Finally, there are some very funny women who have made it into comedy despite all this, but there are men who like to ignore them because they feel that comedy is their territory and women don't belong.

[Felatio Imperative]

My take on Question 2: Men, on the whole, tend to care more about comedy. When growing up being funny is very important as a status symbol to boys, so they grow up spending a lot of time thinking about how to be funny. When girls are growing up, being funny is not really a good way to get attention (because girls are often thought to be a bit odd if they are funny) so they spend less energy thinking about it.
In order to be good at something you need to have spent a fair amount of time thinking about it (either directly or indirectly) so men tend to be better at being funny than women, just because they've put in the hours.
However, these are massive generalisations and plenty of women are very funny - I've known some women who are far funnier than funny guys, just because they are more subtle, less desperate to impress. But being funny doesn't mean that you want to get a job making people laugh and I think, on the whole, proffessional comedy is a less pleasant place to be for women than for men, so less women end up there.
Finally, there are some very funny women who have made it into comedy despite all this, but there are men who like to ignore them because they feel that comedy is their territory and women don't belong.

I think that explains it very well. Certainly there are some great female comedians out there, but there are some awful ones as well, especially on the stand up circuit.

[JesusAndYourBush]

hold up a DB meter and they will both record the same highest peaks.

Except you'd maybe have to wait until near the end of the show when someone torches the car lot to record the highest peak, the furtive little discussions in the Queen Vic would be a lot less DB's.  (Bad example as that's on the BBC and they don't have adverts, oh no.  Except for their own products.)

Anyway in summery, it doesn't really matter because they sound louder and it's fucking annoying.

Agreed.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

hold up a DB meter and they will both record the same highest peaks.

Except you'd maybe have to wait until near the end of the show when someone torches the car lot to record the highest peak, the furtive little discussions in the Queen Vic would be a lot less DB's.  (Bad example as that's on the BBC and they don't have adverts, oh no.  Except for their own products.)

I expect you'd actually be surprised - speech is always pretty high in the mix - you'll get lots of peaks on plosives and "t" sounds too.

Where the processing for ads really comes into its own though is the way it appears to boost the music when someone isn't speaking and drop it when they are.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Where the processing for ads really comes into its own though is the way it appears to boost the music when someone isn't speaking and drop it when they are.

This is the case for most programs isn't it? I'm watching The Fly on Channel 5 right now and I'm constantly having to change the volume up and down to hear the dialogue but keep the music at a reasonable level for this time of night.

[Darrell]

Well that's all films made in the last 20 years isn't it. Mixed for berks with overelaborate home cinema systems and no neighbours, and sod anyone else.

Anchor Bay DVDs with 5.1 "remixes" are the worst, mind. Dialogue the level of a farting fly, while FX and music mixed up so high they're audible from space.

[JesusAndYourBush]

the way it appears to boost the music when someone isn't speaking and drop it when they are.

I remember DJ's doing that, they called it 'riding the fader', although now I believe there's a gadget that does it automatically.

[purlieu]

Compression can have a similar effect itself anyway; I always find this when attempting to mix my own music.  If you hear really badly produced dance music you'll notice that sometimes the drums sit lower in the mix as soon as the bass comes in.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Where the processing for ads really comes into its own though is the way it appears to boost the music when someone isn't speaking and drop it when they are.

This is the case for most programs isn't it? I'm watching The Fly on Channel 5 right now and I'm constantly having to change the volume up and down to hear the dialogue but keep the music at a reasonable level for this time of night.

Ah! That's actually when it's not been compressed or  limited.

I'll do a quick lesson for non-sound engineery type people.

Please note, during mixing, volume is measured as DBs (decibels) below a zero point - so -3db is quite loud in comparison to -10db

Compression reduces the overall volume of a sound when it goes over a set level (threshold) by a set ratio.

So, for example - if you set the ratio to 2:1 have a sound which is peaking at -3db and set the threshold at -5b - it's 2db over, it's compressed by a ratio of 2:1, 1db, so it the volume of the sound which comes out the end of the compressor is -4db.

There's also settings called attack and release which controls how quickly the compressor kicks in and how quickly it stops working after the sound drops back below the threshold - these are very important.

Compression tends to be used on the individual strands of audio using very different settings for different things.

For example - in dance music, it's vital to have a very punchy bass drum, so it kicks really hard on the beat is not so loud so as the low-frequency rumbles after get in the way of the rest of the sound- so often you will set a compressor up to deal with the drums alone.

Here you would have a very high compression rate - maybe 5:1 or 10:1 and a fast attack - not too fast so as to jump in straight away and crush the sound out of existence, but enough to swallow up the rumble. A quick release is needed so the next kick can peak quite high before dropping off again.

For voice overs - it's different as you want to emphasises all the rich, lower, but quieter, frequencies in the voice to make it sounds more silky and smooth.

Here you set the threshold pretty low, the compression at around 2:1, 3:1, a very slow attack and moderate release - and because you are in essence going to be reducing the overall volume by having such a low threshold, you then turn the volume up of the sound coming out of the compressor.

This way you get all the diction and emphasis at the beginnings of words, but the volume of the later parts of the words will be seemingly boosted in comparison to the raw audio.

Good compression is vital to make voices sound great and all radio DJs mics run through masses of compression before they get to air - more advanced studios have different settings for every user.

Now, the way most ads are treated to make them these "bands of sound" is by using something called a limiter.

It's similar to a compressor, but instead of squashing sounds, it simply won't let the volume go above a certain level.

The way you use it in an advert is thus....

Let's say the advert is simply some background music (bed) and a voiceover (VO).

You set the mix up so the bed is not so loud as you can't here the VO - you will notice however that during the bits where there isn't any VO, the bed will sound far too quite.

Now you could set the mix up and "ride the fader" during the quiet bits - but instead it's much easier to set up a limiter on the master fader (one fader which both tracks are routed through)

On the limiter again you have a threshold - you need to set this at around the level at which the music levels out - which could be around -25db or so.

When you now listen to the advert, the whole volume will have dropped massively but what happens is this - when the VO is on top of the bed the total volume will be, pre-lmiter, probably round -2db, so the limiter will shave 23db off, but the mix between voice and music will be the same. When there's no VO, and the music is around -25db, the limiter will not have to do anything.

To counteract the massive drop in volume caused by the limiter you boost the volume coming out of it back up to around -3bd.

Hey presto! Now when you play the advert the volume is permanently at -3db, but the music appears to jump in volume and fill the spaces which were there before limiting.

[Johnny Yesno]

They are louder

Nope, Entropy's right - they're not louder. They're hard limited. Also, they tend to go mad with signal processors called aural exciters which also give the illusion of loudness. Aural excitement can also be bloody irritating which is why they use it more tastefully, if at all, on programmes.

[The Boston Crab]

Entropy Balsmalch, can you come round to my house to teach me how to make drums like Daft Punk? I've been trying and erring for years with compression and limiting and I adore reading about it.