Herring In A Barrel

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Apologies if some of you have seen this before, but I've only just come across it myself:

http://www.richardherring.com/warmingup/warmingup.php?id=1356

The show is really coming together, even though I am doing most of the work on stage. I had a friend in the audience who hadn't seen me gig for almost a year and she said that my confidence on stage had improved by some distance. Most of the stuff is really working well too and I think I somehow have the makings of a good show.

There was a couple on the front row though who seemed to disagree with me and the vast majority of the packed crowd. They sat sullen faced through the whole thing. Being a comedian means that the one person in a crowd not laughing will always attract your attention more than the hundred people pissing themselves. They looked like they had just received news about the death of a friend for the first five minutes. I asked the woman what the problem was and she said that she just didn't find me funny. "Not even that Riddle of the Sphinx joke?" I asked, "That's genius."

She shook her head looking more miserable than ever. It obviously became my mission to make her laugh, just as it became her mission to not find a thing I said amusing. I managed to make her half smile with my kids' jokes (poo on stilts) which showed how pathetic she was, but apart from that, not a thing. But the rest of the audience mainly enjoyed my banter with her, as well as the way I would occasionally look at her after a joke had hit hard with the rest of the crowd and say "No?"

I couldn't really understand why she didn't leave, but she seemed insistent on staying in her seat, not enjoying anything.

"Why don't you leave me alone?" she asked on the fourth time I went back to her.

"I can't leave you alone until I have made you laugh. Why don't you just laugh?"

She refused.

"Neither of us is going to budge. We're trapped in this battle now and neither of us can back down. Now you can understand what's going on between Israel and Lebanon."

I managed to just about keep the battle at a level where it didn't dominate or unsettle the gig (unlike at the Red Rose the other week) and eighty per cent of the material I did seemed to work really well. So hopefully this all augurs well for Edinburgh. Please do book ahead to ensure your seat as tickets are selling well. Try and get a seat near the front if you think you're going to be miserable for the entire hour.

But in the interests of balance. Here is an email I got from the gentleman in the couple who didn't enjoy the show.

"Dear Mr Herring

We watch a lot of comedy. We've been to every Edinburgh preview show at Happy Mondays. I smiled a few times, but failed to laugh out loud. I was so looking forward to your show, there was me thinking 'eww, Mark Watson, young, First at Cambridge, a novel under his belt, critical acclaim, gotta hate him' but he actually quite enjoyable. Some of the material was a little ropey, and the circular nature of his performance predictable, how many times has The Seven Deadly Sins been covered? He was decent overall without being startlingly inventive.

Now we come to you.

Richard Herring! Richard Herring! He fell out with Patrick Marber; he might've been on The Day Today, surely the greatest TV programme of the 1990s. He's done this, that, check his CV, there's hardly anyone any good he hasn't worked with. Can't wait!

I knew it'd be busy, and faced with the options of an inaccessible seat in the middle on a hot evening, or a seat near the front with more room and 'round the back' toilet and bar access, I broke the cardinal rule and sat at the front. My partner joined me later. The other performers we'd seen at Happy Mondays were neither heckled nor did they pick on the crowd, so in this cosy students are told what to laugh at environment, I assumed it'd be ok. And surely performers of such renown would be past picking on non heckling members of the audience? After all The World Famous Embassy Club this wasn't.

I was expecting a show with a theme. I genuinely thought your opening selection of predictable 'jokes' were intentionally self-deprecating, you playing at being 'a Working Man's Club comedian'. The Van Gogh ear joke, "you can only use that technique once though..." I was expecting 'and even if it works a second time, you have to learn to lip read, and what to use for a sweet nothing depository eh? One less hole for her tongue but that needn't be a bad thing eh lads...' But you didn't even get that far.

The po-tay-toe, po-tar-toe routine - that's established isn't it? – was merely tedious, thereby rendering it something of a highlight of your performance. But again, I have better lines, 'you say po-tay-toes, I say po-tar-toes, you say tom-art-erz, I say yes, it's a perfectly legitimate aspect of jihad for a couple to engage in suicide bombing'. Geddit?

The reason I didn't laugh at your show is because it wasn't inventive or funny. It was predictable 'Peep! Peep! Punch line for Mr Herring, punch line for Mr Herring.' There I was thinking Chris Morris wins hands down in the 'comedian who was good and is now shit' category, but you push him close. Obviously you never reached his heights, but you've arguably sunk lower. Having a go at Steve Martin, you revolutionary, even Dennis 'Mr Martin, Mr Martin, just one question, why aren't you funny any more?' Pennis acknowledged what a true great Martin was. Your "...because no one ever nailed that role" was good, "pissing on the grave of a genius" indeed. But I suggest history will remember Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, The Man With Two Brains and All Of Me alongside the one or two good and subsequent poor Clouseau movies. To then moan on about 'intelligence' and take a swipe at Bo-Selecta, step back from the edge Mr Herring afore unleashing your wrath upon My Hero.

We probably agree politically. But yet again, this time relating to immigration, I have better lines, such as the signs I stuck on lorries at Dover to aid Customs and Immigration Officials, 'There are no asylum seekers left in this vehicle overnight'.

Meanwhile you continue to victimize my partner, I can't be certain if you heard my 'welcome to the Embassy Club' comment, sadly it was all too accurate. You enquired 'Who do you like? Peter Kay?' as if expecting, 'Oh yeah, Max and Paddy is the new Reggie Perrin' in gushing retort. As someone involved in script editing Little Britain, it is a little rich for you to attack Kay. Maybe you could've done a Ting Tong impression?

On to Hurricane Awareness Day, oh, it should've been August 28th 2005 should it?

Perhaps July 24th 2005 should've been jokes about seven bullets in the head to kill Jean Charles de Menezes day. Come on, attack 'stupid people' and someone in crowd who isn't laughing. Maybe we weren't laughing because your act is so staid Mr Herring.

You suggested people not enjoying your act should leave, 'I'm the last act on, you're not laughing, why stay?' Do you leave football matches at half time Mr Herring, or do you live in hope? Do you enter a pub and order every drink on offer, or do you only drink what you enjoy? Do you dance to every tune at the disco or...?

The grand finale, 'only two people not laughing and they're here together, how surprising' you lost most of the sycophantic audience with that one, 'pussy whipped' you suggest. Did it occur to you two people might just enjoy comedy so much, mutual appreciation, critical awareness and understanding helps cement the bond? My partner and I don't agree on all aspects of comedy, for example; I quite like the new series of Scrubs, she's not so keen. She thoroughly enjoyed Mark Watson's act, I'm still awaiting the equal of League Against Tedium, from which I'll borrow by means of conclusion 'I've nothing to declare but my intelligence and innovation' said Mr Herring at Customs. 'I'll put that down as nothing then shall I? sneered the Official.

Yours cheerfully

Philip

[NB: Your work for Scope is admirable. I use the only non-profit ISP I could find, it supports Pressure Works and Christian Aid and others. If you feel compelled to mock the Christian connotations, feel free. If you can suggest a more right on ISP, please do. Maybe Murdoch does one?]

Please feel free to use this letter in any way you see fit, but remember, it's not our fault we didn't enjoy your show."

And from the following day:

http://www.richardherring.com/warmingup/warmingup.php?id=1357

I try to respond to everyone who writes to me (at least for the first couple of times that they email - alas I can't become a penpal to strangers), unless they threaten me with death (which happens occasionally and I keep those emails in a special file to help the police in their investigations should anyone ever go ahead with their fiendish plans). So even if the email is abusive or tells me I am a cunt or that I have never been funny I try to send back a reasoned response.

It is especially effective to respond to abuse with politeness as as often as not I will receive an email of apology from the person concerned who might admit to having been drunk (and sometimes having forgotten sending the message at all) or in a dark place personally or just sorry that they were so rude. Sometimes they won't write back at all, but it doesn't matter as I have maintained my dignity.

It's still horrible getting criticised whether it's by aggrieved punters on Chortle or by the comedy critic of the Daily Telegraph (I have written about how this made me feel in the new programme - it's just been printed and I will attempt to send out copies to all the sponsors during Edinburgh), the abuse will always sting for a second at least. Whilst in my heart I know that it's impossible to please everyone and that I would be quite upset if that actually happened, to rouse someone to such anger that they email you or post on a forum or slag you off in a paper is an unsettling thing to happen. Of course I do it myself to others in my act and on this web page, and once one has had the chance to reason through all these things it no longer hurts at all. Most of my criticism of other comedy in my work is intended to reflect badly on me. Though I hate Bo' Selecta and am a bit surprised that so many people enjoy Peter Kay's undemanding stand up, I think by me going on about them that it should be clear to most people that I am envious of their success and baffled by the fact that they get on TV whilst I can't.

Anyway when I got the email that's in yesterday's entry I felt those pangs of depression. I can't really blame him for being upset about the gig. My initial reaction on reading his email was to send him one back that just said "oh fuck off!"

But instead I tried to be reasonable and reply in a thoughtful way and address some of his points. Here's what I said,

"Sorry you didn't enjoy it. I was genuinely just trying to get a reaction out of you. Your opinions are much appreciated, but I disagree and don't think your suggested punchlines are any good. I don't even understand one of them to be honest.I will trust my own judgement and the opinion of the 95% of that audience and every other audience who have liked it.

It's a more mainstream show than last year, but still inventive and challenging I believe.

I genuinely thought you would both crack under the banter and loosen up, but there we go. Sorry to have made your evening uncomfortable. No you don't leave football at half time because things change, but there was really no point in you both staying when you weren't enjoying it at all. If you'd been the only two people laughing and everyone else had looked like you then I would have considered changing the show, but I am happy with it. Still some work to do. But I know what is good and fresh comedy and there's plenty of that in this show.

Everyone else said you both had the same look on your faces for Watson so maybe you're not being entirely honest

You didn't like it. Ah well. Don't come again. I am genuinely glad you've taken then time to write and genuinely sorry if my "picking" on you upset you.But you could easily have deflected it.

In the Martin stuff it's implicit that he was once great, that's why his choices now are so disappointing. Yeah, I've never been as great as him or Morris, but doesn't mean I can't criticize. After all you've never been as great as me and you still are able to. So you can't have a go at me for doing what you're doing now.

Anyway enough. I think I behaved a bit badly last night, but you did too.

I think this has been quite a reasoned response and I'd just like to add what I am thinking – fuck off

RKHerring"

See in the end I couldn't resist it. It's something I never usually do, though I often want to. And though I slightly regret not maintaining my dignity, in a way I just wonder whether the fuck off option isn't a better one. After all, although he was provoked, his email is very abusive. And I think most people would see that he damns himself somewhat, both through his incomprehensible jokes and his admission that he has not laughed at any of the Edinburgh previews.

After posting his email in my blog yesterday and worrying a bit that I had been unfair, I discovered he had posted his message in the guestbook himself. So he's happy for you all to see it.

And I have posted my reply, mainly because I wanted to show you how I had failed to control myself this time and I thought it was funny. Both funny to be that rude to him, but also funny because I come out of it badly.

And maybe he has won, because I have spent the day after one of the best stand up performances that I have done worrying about the two or three people who didn't like the show, rather than the hundred or so who did. Hopefully that's some crumb of comfort to Philip. No hard feelings mate.

Thanks for fucking off though.

Every day I get more and more disappointed with Richard Herring. He may talk about how shameful Ben Elton's career has become, but he's done nothing as embarrassing as this, which makes him appear like a cruel, sneering bully, whilst showing some misconceptions he has about his own career and the way he comes across.

The chap's email raises a lot of valid points about Herring's current act; it's vulgar, cheap and a shadow of his old material. Sure, the 'suggested punchlines' are a convenient stick to beat him with, but reading "Who do you like then? Peter Kay?" bit made my skin crawl. That's the very definition of gallery-playing.

So Herring posts his reply - something which could be construed as admirable - and reveals his cake-and-eat-it ways. Firstly, I've heard that Steve Martin/Bo! Selecta stuff and there is no implicit irony. It reminds me of the guffy excuses he used to paper over cracks in Time Gentleman Please. Then that makes me wonder if he would use the same excuse about calling the woman 'pathetic' too.

Nice jabs about Ting Tong Macadangdang too - something that Herring has steadfastedly refused to comment on since objections were raised over a year ago.

Still, I'll go and see him do Menage A Un on tour. So who's the real cunt? Is it the fan who has seen his hero fall from grace, who steadfastedly hopes that some worth might be gleamed from the next project, or is it the etc?

[benthalo]

Just vile.

Herring once told me off on another forum for walking out of an Edinburgh show midway (Garth Marenghi, 2001). So I'm rather confused now.

I hope Philip's reading this thread, rather than the scorn of the four remaining Herring obsessives on his guestbook. I for one think he absolutely nailed the current state of RH's output, something I would have thought more than 5% of his audience believed to be sub-par. Does he even realise that, as BA suggests, it's not that we think he's just another shit stand-up but that he has been fantastic and like a failing football team we hang on to that hope through gritted teeth?

Whilst he had his undivided attention, it's a great shame that Philip didn't mention that embarassing apologetic act he does whenever he presents on the radio - like the most trying student radio show in the world - and that fucking false chuckle of his.  Those appearances on Andrew Collins' 6Music show are genuinely interminable, as were the 30-odd breakfast shows he did for BBC7. As for the panel shows... appearing on The News Quiz, contributing little to what is a perfectly good show, and then scuttling away to sneer at it on Warming Up. What I've seen of the new live stuff is just plain dull.

He's a waste of breath these days, and it's genuinely depressing.

[Marvin]

Just vile.

Herring once told me off on another forum for walking out of an Edinburgh show midway (Garth Marenghi, 2001). So I'm rather confused now.

I hope Philip's reading this thread, rather than the scorn of the four remaining Herring obsessives on his guestbook. I for one think he absolutely nailed the current state of RH's output, something I would have thought more than 5% of his audience believed to be sub-par. Does he even realise that, as BA suggests, it's not that we think he's just another shit stand-up but that he has been fantastic and like a failing football team we hang on to that hope through gritted teeth?

Spot on Bent Halo. I was very young when Lee and Herring were first on the radio and they were the first comedy thing I really became a 'fan' of, and it's both amazing and depressing to see the continuing decline of Richard Herring. That e-mail was very accurate in its critiscm and how could Herring accuse it of being abusive? His response is pathetic and posting that online was pathetic, and to be honest from the sound of things the way he interacted with them was pretty pathetic. Interacting with the audience can be good but so often it's just lazy and unpleasant - especially if they haven't been heckling in the first place.

[Peter Rain]

I'm really impressed with that man's response, and Herring's just embarassing himself by putting his own up. I can't see any sane person thinking 'right on!' when Herring's telling him to fuck off, the man clearly didn't like the show because he's not just a casual comedy fan, he's an enthusiast who knows what he's talking about.

[Sheriff John Indolent]

I wish he'd have at least addressed the swipe at Ting Tong instead of just ruminating on the satisfaction of telling his critic to 'fuck off' in a safe 'this is my blog and only my fans read it' way (they can dish it out etc.). I really would like to hear a defence of a character regarded from more than one quarter as racially dodgy from the show's script editor.

L&H used to litter their stuff with sideswipes about other comics that seemed to stem from passionate obsession (eg. "I'm David Baddiel from the Maaaary Whitehouse Experience". "And A Stab In The Dark". "Sssshhh") It's a shame he himself seems unable to answer to constructive criticism properly nowadays.

[The Mumbler]

A pointless man, writing pointlessly about nothing.  Long ago, I suggested that his blog was basically an excuse for him to snidely abuse waitresses in pizzerias with the most ghastly possible air of "Do you know who I am?".  Apparently, it's Herring who's the fool.  We've got him all wrong.  He had to say that himself though.   The Greek chorus on his website (the usual 20 twats going, "You're great, Rich, unlike Rory Bremner" or whatever ten-year old material they could half-remember) had a field day, needless to say.  

Bless Philip mightily for just getting more and more magnanimous and measured, just as Herring got progressively more belligerent and catty.

[clareQuilty]

So is Phillip on this board then? Sounds like he could well be from the tone of that letter.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

I've not been keen on RH's stand up for a long time.

However I don't mind Warming Up at all.

Despite the sneering he can often throw up some wonderful observations - for example the "Someone likes yoghurt" entry - which he then went on to massacre in his stand-up routine.

For me it seems to be closer to his real voice than the one he has on stage.

As far as that email went though - I thought it was dreadful.

The suggested punchlines are just terrible. It's really bitter and packed full of contradictions (for example - if Herring is only treading over old ground, then why does this guy have so many punchlines for his material if he isn't treading over the same ground). It also reeks of a general snobbish attitude to comedy where someone goes repeatedly to the same venue week after week and fails to find any of it remotely funny.

I don't think RHs response was very clever or smart, but neither was the initial email.

If you hunt around on the message board you'll find the guys response to Herring's response and it is even more incomprehensibly sneery and pointless.

[Sheldon Finklestein]

At the risk of getting my head chewed off, I think Philip comes out the bigger twat, here. Though some of his criticisms of Herring are accurate (especially the Little Britain one) the tone of his letter is so abusive as to render any constructive criticism invalid. He tries to give advice to a successful (if waning) comedian, which is brave, then proceeds to shoot off both his own feet with those absolutely pathetic punchlines. I see it this way: even if you have some personal flaws, would you be happy if someone walked up to you and bellowed them into your face?
In the end, I think we should remember, Richard Herring has produced some fantastic comedy over the years and, if, as I suspect, there is a time when comedians just stop being funny, and he has entered it, it's hardly fair to abuse him over it. It's not as if he's mediocre, but being feted as a genius, like Rob Brydon or Catherine Tate.

Ting Tong is appalling though, so he can fuck off about that. (See what I did there?)

[Jack Shaftoe]

I too thought Philip sounded like a twat. Why shouldn't Herring tell him to fuck off? Although either saying 'fuck off' or giving a polite explanation would have done - doing both doesn't quite work.

[Felatio Imperative]

If everyone else was laughing then the show was a success. If they have a specific taste in comedy, which it sounds like Phillip and his partner do according to his 'punchlines', then they could have seen after ten minutes that the show wasn't for them and left at the interval. People like Phillip set out with an agenda, to suck all the fun and pleasure out of comedy, and you can tell he was delighted at the fuss he caused.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I fear for Herring's sanity sometimes - the egotism he displays in Waming Up is just astonishing. Really unpleasant to read.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I think I behaved a bit badly last night, but you did too.

What, by not laughing? For fuck's sake, Herring.

WARMING UP, 14 August 2006

My new show 'I Am Ten Inches Do You Want Me - Redux' is getting very good reviews, which is good because I am a comedian and getting good reviews is good. Other comedians like Justin Lee Collins and Paris Hilton are not as good as me otherwise they too would have an Edinburgh show, which is what I have, so bear that in mind next time. Nice!!!

A strange thing happened when I went to buy tea bags today though. The woman in the supermarket completely failed to recognise me, let alone exclaim 'You're Richard Herring aren't you? I think you're great on Pokerzone's Heads Up with Richard Herring', which I thought was a bit odd and possibly rude. 'Are you alright?' I asked. 'You do know who I am don't you?'. 'Sorry, love, I get a lot of customers,' she replied with a smile which I took to be sarcastic. I quickly paid for my tea-bags and left. Perhaps if she was a bit less arrogant then she'd be working in Edinburgh like me, rather than simply selling tea bags, the tea-bag-selling twat.

I tried to forget the tea-bag incident (and thanks for all your emails of support, guys), but it's started to play on my mind. I think I'll write next year's Edinburgh show about it, complete with a polaroid of the supermarket woman. I know where she lives.

Anyway, I've become very disappointed by the quality of graffiti in toilets recently, and... (That's enough warming up - Ed)

[Baxter]

I saw him in the flesh a few years ago when he came to Lincoln and he really seemed to have a problem dealing with hecklers he claimed on his blog that it was "faux annoyance while maintaining an inner calm" but I don't think it's right to literally start screaming at people when they leave after ten minutes of dead baby pie and trout fucking jokes.

Mr Lee on the other hand is very good.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

S. Gerrard kicks non clapping fan.
G. Ramsay stabs pea leaving customer.
P. Tong chastises nightclubber who didn't dance.
T. Emin headbutts gallery visitor for failure to gaup.
N. Foster machetes tourist oblivious to genius of Gherkin.

Unbelievable. I can't imagine another sphere of entertainment, or indeed any sphere, within which 'an artist', or any producer of anything, would attempt to humiliate a (presumably) paying customer for not giving the desired reaction.

If you hunt around on the message board you'll find the guys response to Herring's response and it is even more incomprehensibly sneery and pointless.

Dear Mr Herring


First all I'd like to apologise for the arrogant and pompous tone of yesterday's email.
Now I'd like to address some of the responses. I hope you'll take a minute or two to read the complete entry. Thank you.

I'm no expert on memory, but short term is more akin to RAM so far as I'm aware. So when you picked on my partner "What makes you laugh?" and she responded "The other bloke (Mark Watson) was hilarious" she wasn't being "quite rude back" as you describe it, she was simply recalling the last 'thing' to make her laugh.You later suggested "Peter Kay?" once more assuming a critical superiority. Had we chirped up and said, with a nod to chronology; the Marx Brothers, Spike Milligan, Tony Hancock, Lenny Bruce, Peter Cook, We're Only In It For The Money, Woody Allen, Richard Pryor, Monty Python, M*A*S*H, Morecombe and Wise, Reggie Perrin, Spinal Tap, Seinfeld, The Day Today, Brass Eye, Jam and the afore mentioned Attention Scum – The League Against Tedium, would you have left us alone for the evening?
Let's remember, we didn't heckle you, you picked on us, and my partner in particular, even turning to her, fluent in several languages as she is, to nod condescendingly after explaining your French related 'apple of the ground' jokes.
You still haven't responded to my Embassy Club related comments, picking on a woman in audience is archetypal Manning. Am I wrong to expect more?

I said several positive things, the "...because no one's quite nailed that role" I described as "good" and regarding your "pissing on the grave of a genius" I commented "indeed". The fact Paul Kaye (as Dennis Pennis) highlighted the demise of Steve Martin to his face a decade or more ago rendered your critique somewhat obsolete. Martin is such a safe and established target, as is Bo-Selecta. Why not have ago the dreadful fall in standards we've witnessed of late from sacred cows, such as Morris in The IT Crowd, or the lame preview of Iannucci's Time Trumpet? Or, as I suggested, do a Ting Tong impression? 'They're only characters you know', so was Jack Booth in Love thy Neighbour.

Russell, if you bothered to read the email, you'd see there was no seat allocation, I specifically mention my unwillingness to sit near the front. And Jayne, laughing at the 'poo on stilts' joke makes you "pathetic" according to Mr Herring, again, try reading the posts before adding your inert liras worth. christina, my partner and I had little choice but to sit at the front, as extensively detailed in my original post, maybe you and Jayne should pop over to Russell's place and read it out loud together. Niceguyeddie, I'm sure the valiant Mr Herring will confirm, our only "provocation" of Mr Herring was to do nothing, ie, not laugh. We didn't heckle, boo, chat, read, use our phones, we didn't even take our eyes off the stage. I detail the "quite rude back" claim above. And chistina, no one did "offend (our) precious sensibilities", I merely wrote in response to a prolonged unprovoked verbal assault on my partner. rachel, I wasn't suggesting Steve Martin isn't a legitimate target, he has been for over a decade, I was saying he's all too easy a target. (see above)

After the show I took some programmes and put all my accessible change in the tin. I quote "Your work for Scope is admirable." How you've interpreted that as "criticism of my means of collecting for scope" is beyond me. And the 'Morris thing' wasn't a direct comparison in terms of "great"ness, it was about the extent of decline.

I never suggested "there was nothing amusing in that hour" in the sense that each evening's crowd form a fresh democratic republic of comedy taste. As you rightly say, almost everyone was laughing, ipso facto 'it was funny'. But you can't have it both ways - "Being a comedian always means that the one person in the crowd not laughing will attract your attention more than the hundred people pissing themselves" or the "I trust my judgement and the opinion of the 95% of that audience and every other audience who have liked it". There's an inherent contradiction in play. Either the initial reactions and subsequent responses of my partner and I 'matter' or they don't. I'd suggest they don't, and by default you've already agreed with me, so why concentrate so heavily on them at the time?

This and that said, I felt uneasy last night. I hadn't considered just how soon Edinburgh is and genuinely hoped our little encounter hadn't upset anything. I thought, 'don't be silly, this sort of thing must happen all the time' and slummed in prickly awe at the obligatory resilience of stand up comedians. Though upon reading WU it seems it spoilt your day too, and I apologise. In case it hadn't occurred to any guestbook contributors, the reason I attend gigs is because we're fascinated by comedy, we're not there to put any one down, put any one off, or put in my twopenneth worth, just to watch. Had we taken our usual seating positions – middle to back – none of this would've happened. You've been gallant in responding, as our not laughing is neither here nor there to us and your show is your art on your sleeve. I understand you're "Fuck off" reaction, hopefully you can understand my willingness to counter your attack on my partner.

We're sorry we didn't enjoy your show, despite regular disappointments, we truly set out to each comedy gig and await each new sitcom with gleeful anticipation.

We're certainly not curmudgeonly, promise.


Yours sincerely


Philip


[BTW: Yesterday's email contained 1024 words, a binary wet dream, in small tribute to the CNPS section of this website]

Yeah, how dare he 1. not laugh, and 2. respond to Herring's public abuse of his unamused "partner". What a complete cunt, sitting there watching the show like that. If we all did the right thing, obeyed Herring's command and laughed like drains at every comedic act we encounter, this forum would be much nicer place. A very nice place indeed. Oh it is a nice place. A lovely place. Oh yes, lovely...

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Yeah, how dare he 1. not laugh, and 2. respond to Herring's public abuse of his unamused "partner". What a complete cunt, sitting there watching the show like that. If we all did the right thing, obeyed Herring's command and laughed like drains at every comedic act we encounter, this forum would be much nicer place. A very nice place indeed. Oh it is a nice place. A lovely place. Oh yes, lovely...

That wasn't really the point was it?

The point was, whatever you think of Richard Herring, Phillips email was cunty.

It's very odd in its tone and, as I said before, packed full of contradictions.

I also said Herring's response was not very good either, but the two cunts don't make a right.

I think that second email is worse than the first . Sometimes it's better to let things lie.

If Phillip genuinely believes him to be witless, then don't try and enter into a battle of wits with him.

It's odd that some in this thread seem to have taken a liking to Phillip because of his dislike of Herring - it's odd to chose your friends on the basis of a common enemy.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Yeah, how dare he 1. not laugh, and 2. respond to Herring's public abuse of his unamused "partner". What a complete cunt, sitting there watching the show like that. If we all did the right thing, obeyed Herring's command and laughed like drains at every comedic act we encounter, this forum would be much nicer place. A very nice place indeed. Oh it is a nice place. A lovely place. Oh yes, lovely...

That wasn't really the point was it?

The point was, whatever you think of Richard Herring, Phillips email was cunty.

It's very odd in its tone and, as I said before, packed full of contradictions.

I also said Herring's response was not very good either, but the two cunts don't make a right.

I think that second email is worse than the first . Sometimes it's better to let things lie.

If Phillip genuinely believes him to be witless, then don't try and enter into a battle of wits with him.

It's odd that some in this thread seem to have taken a liking to Phillip because of his dislike of Herring - it's odd to chose your friends on the basis of a common enemy.

[23 Daves]

I agree that both parties came out of this one badly - I saw the original posts up on "Warming Up", and found it to be a cringe-fest on both sides.  God help Herring if he'd dared to ask my wife why she wasn't laughing, that's all I can say.  Or me, for that matter.  I'm sure we'd both have been "publically humiliated" by his witty retorts and would have had few come-backs whilst he was on-mic, but I don't think we'd have been quite so polite about his attitude at the venue itself.  Perhaps that makes me worse than Phillip, I don't know.

Incidentally, I still think picking on people in the front row is weak comedy, aiming for a cheap laugh, regardless of the circumstances, what seats were left in the venue, or anything else.  

For all that, though, I have to say I do enjoy reading Herring's blog.  Once every so often he does make a very astute, hilarious observation, and he does actually allow glimpses into the creative process (however flawed you may think that is) which most comedian's blogs tend to leave to one side.  It's quite brave in that respect, because if a blogger starts writing about their craft in any serious way, it's very difficult for it not to begin to seem pretentious or self-important.  He does leave himself open for criticism without giving much of a toss, and I quite admire that.

[The Mumbler]

I just think Herring was desperate for material, really.  Literally.

It's not as if Philip comes out of it fantastically well, but there's something about the way Herring plays to the gallery at the slightest hint of dissent from anyone (critics, members of his audience who have paid to be entertained, even people in service industries) that really stinks of spite and insecurity.   Philip's e-mail was private correspondence, and Herring's response - to plaster it over his blog in the most self-serving fashion, but always winking at his blindly loyal fanbase - was revolting.  But then, I've come to expect nothing more in the past few years.  Herring can point out the flaws in his own rubbish act, but woe betide anyone else who wants to.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

He claims that when he attacks comedians 'it's more of an attack on me being jealous' etc - that's such cake-and-eat-it bollocks. If that was really the case, why doesn't he attack better/less safe targets than Peter Kay and Bo Selecta?

He went into a panic when taken to task over Ting Tong too - writing a justification, then adding 'this is the last word on the subject'. He just didn't want a debate about it. Not that he'd get one on that forum anyway.

[Morgan]

I've only read Warming Up about ten times, but every entry seems to mention his Gameboy, Scrabble, or playing Scrabble on his Gameboy.

[K]

I gather Philip posted his message on Herring's messageboard as well, so I don't think it counts as private correspondence; RKH was within his rights to publish it (and his response). Neither of them come out looking particularly well, though- they both make good points, but their messages are so garbled and unfocused that any point is lost in the bitterness.

I'd have thought it would be funnier of Herring to just say "fuck off".

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I think the email exchange was a separate issue, anyway - Herring was an arsehole to object to the non-laughers in the first place.

He never even entertains the idea that his act wasn't really that funny, or even that the non-laughers didn't share his sense of humour or whatever. It's strength-in-numbers bullying, with a crowd of 'You tell them, Rich!' twats cackling and cheering throughout. Horrible.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Philip's e-mail was private correspondence, and Herring's response - to plaster it over his blog in the most self-serving fashion, but always winking at his blindly loyal fanbase - was revolting.

Phillip's email does actually state "see fit to use this in whatever way..." etc, and by posting it on the message board too would imply he very much wanted it to be seen by lots of people - so fair game really.

Neither party came out of it well - just Phillip worse.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Herring used to be a nice guy for much of his early career, but he never became an A-list comedian in commercial terms. So is he just realising that, if he wants to still have a career before his time runs out, he has to turn into the kind of arrogant, self-publicising prick that he once despised? Has he realised that the industry has changed so much since 1994 that modesty now works against you, hence the unapologetic quoting of good reviews and furious stamping on any kind of criticism?

He once said he wished L&H had put loads of catchphrases and regular characters in their sketch comedy (which they did, to an annoying degree, in the second series of TMWRNJ, and even more so in Time Gentlemen Please) because that might have meant greater success...I think it all comes from that attitude, really. Just a desire to survive.

It's a shame, because - underneath it all - Herring is still a funnier comedian than the hundreds of mediocre twats who clutter the current schedules.

[23 Daves]

Well, quite.

I was thinking earlier as well that having people near the front row at your gigs who don't enjoy what you're doing is normally only an indignity that up and coming comics have to suffer - once somebody becomes a guaranteed sell-out, the front row seats tend to fill with fans and hangers-on.  So it could be that it sits really uncomfortably with him for this reason.  There was surely a time when the front row would be a gang clinging on to his every word, and probably secretly hoping he would pick on them?

In Herring's defence, both myself and friends of mine have at various points done gigs that have gone down really well in our respective disciplines, only for them to be marred slightly by the sight of a sour-faced scowling couple of people right in our faces in the front row.  It does take the shine off the occasion a bit, it does put one off one's stride, and it is irritating, however it's completely impossible to please all the people all the time, and people are quite free to sit where they choose.  And it's better not to provoke folk who are otherwise busy ignoring you, as they sure as hell won't find you any more likeable as a result.  And other such cliches.  But surely this is all stuff that Herring would know as a professional comedian of many years now?

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Philip's e-mail was private correspondence, and Herring's response - to plaster it over his blog in the most self-serving fashion, but always winking at his blindly loyal fanbase - was revolting.

Phillip's email does actually state "see fit to use this in whatever way..." etc, and by posting it on the message board too would imply he very much wanted it to be seen by lots of people - so fair game really.

Neither party came out of it well - just Phillip worse.

I don't see how Phillip came out of it worse. Herring is a professional comic of almost 20 years' standing and should know far, far better. Herring called him and his partner liars and smugly acted like a cunt not just on his sycophantic site but also in front of that crowd - who, of course,  joined in the sneering. Easier to say he has no sense of humour because of his jokes, or just say they are worthless human beings because *they didn't laugh at a gig*.

Mumbler - it was posted as an open letter on Herring's guestbook. Which is fair enough - Herring got his say-so at the gig, and surely his web-presence allows people a right to reply? Anyway, I defy you to read this without wanting to punch your monitor through.

[The Mumbler]

I didn't check back far enough in the guestbook, obviously!  I only saw the follow-up e-mail there.

Mind you, I read the 24th July on the day itself, Herring had already written the Warming Up on the gig *before* Philip e-mailed, whereupon he added the e-mail to the entry later.  So in effect, Herring had already started stirring.  As I say, desperate for material.  

Thing is, Herring does do his "injured smugness" whenever this happens, and sure, to just go, "Actually, you two are right and the rest of the audience are idiots" would be ludicrous.  But it's not like they were heckling, they just weren't laughing.  And if Herring was still the truly great comedian he was with Stewart Lee, he wouldn't need to spend 1000 words or so bawling out two detractors.  

Some time ago, Herring said he was going to stop daily postings on Warming Up.   How I wish he'd done so a long time ago.

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

There's a posting a couple of days after where he talks about 'offensive' material, and in doing so reveals how naive he can be about his own work. To him, gags about dead babies, Maxine Carr and Heather Mills' false leg are somehow controversial. No, they're just tasteless and cheap. Ahhh, but that's *why* they're funny, no doubt! Christ.

Some time ago, Herring said he was going to stop daily postings on Warming Up. How I wish he'd done so a long time ago.

Here's something to make you shudder: I've heard that he wants to use YouTube to set up some sort of 'comedy channel'. Can you imagine that? A re-write of the Urine Professor sketch every day.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

I don't see how Phillip came out of it worse.

It's just a matter of opinion really. I just felt Phillips email made him seem more of a twat than Herring's response.

You may not feel that, but it's hard to quantify twatiness.

Interestingly, this appeared in Warming Up today...

Four people left to go to the toilet during the performance [....]  I had commented a little bit on this phenomenon and the fourth person to go held up a hand apologetically and said "Just a piss", which allowed me to say, "Thanks for letting us know. As long as it isn't a shit then that's OK," and then to discuss how dispiriting it was to have written an hour of material over the last year, only to discover that a man saying "Just a piss" was funnier than anything I had come up with.

Herring admitting someone saying "Just a piss..." was funnier than his routine there.

I think unconsciously RH providing a far better critique of his own comic malaise than a bitter and "I could do better" email from a shoulder-chipped audience member ever could.