Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]

[JamesTC]

Alternatively the War has multiple fronts.

The Enterprise has been sent to patrol the Neutral Zone again. Just in case.

[purlieu]

You Are Cordially Invited.... And after all the heavy stuff, a comedy Klingon episode. Much needed. Although quite why Dax was allowed to marry after begging but turned down after standing up for herself and being strong, I don't understand. Not very Klingon, is it? Good to see that, in the middle of a war, five of the most important people on the ship can go on a four day bachelor party, anyway.

Resurrection. Ah God, fucking mirror universe again. That was very predictable. Not bad, but a step down after a run of nine very strong episodes.

[oy vey]

Resurrection is lazy. Basically mining the mirror universe for a simple what-if on a recurring character. But considering they were drumming out 20-odd episodes per year I can forgive a handful of misfires and padding.

[purlieu]

Statistical Probabilities. I genuinely don't know how I feel about this episode.

[dr_christian_troy]

Statistical Probabilities. I genuinely don't know how I feel about this episode.

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest IN SPAAAAAACE

[oy vey]

Statistical Probabilities. I genuinely don't know how I feel about this episode.

I did not like the doc going with surrender, and how they didn't realise the small random element buggering their predictions. Meh. Not my favourite. The characters were funny however.

[purlieu]

It was quite difficult to work out exactly how the characters were intended to be taken, as there were some clear mental health and autism stereotypes in there. Were they played for laughs? How sympathetic were they? Was Bashir's remark near the end about regretting thinking these people could be beneficial to society really what he felt? Was Overtly Sexual Woman the best they could come up with for a socially difficult female character? Was them becoming traitors to the Federation the best plot to give these characters?
I'm not saying it was a massive issue, but something about the characters just felt off. It was entertaining, narratively somewhat interesting (as well as shocking in terms of the 900 billion dead), and thankfully brought the Dominion war back into proceedings, but I just wasn't really sure how I felt about how the main guest characters were handled.

[oy vey]

Hmmm. I feel guilty enjoying them now. They feel like characters from an anime series. Not sure why I'm making that link but it's a filler episode no doubt.

[Zetetic]

While I agree you can't get away from the clear gesturing to mental illness and autism stereotypes, I've never really felt that it's meant to be speaking directly to those things as they actually are in our world even if it's meant to reflect a little on the idea of excluding the "socially difficult" as you put it. I'm possibly being generous to the writers.

I reckon it turns a lot on how you're prepared to engage with the broadness (it does irritate me a bit) and the extent to which Bashir works for you as a link to these characters. By this point, I guess the hope is that you can see him as a flawed but sympathetic person and this transfers a little to these "there but for the grace of god" people.

Was Overtly Sexual Woman the best they could come up with for a socially difficult female character?

An interesting question, given how much it reflects on our current and historical mores.

Was them becoming traitors to the Federation the best plot to give these characters?

I think it helps that we've seen other (human) characters take against the Federation with justifications that are less compelling and in ways that are far less sympathetic.

[purlieu]

I'm possibly being generous to the writers.

No, I think you're right, especially in a mid-'90s way. It's why I'm torn on what to think: I believe it's a well-meaning episode for the most part, but from the perspective of 2021, the lack of sensitivity feels hard to ignore.
I do think there were positive aspects, too. Jack being rude and confrontational until talked to about something he felt comfortable with, and then him becoming very friendly and accepting, comes across as quite a familiar autistic character, and I did think it was a nice way to portray that kind of person. It potentially opens up more interesting questions about mental health in the Federation in general. I believe it's set out in TOS that mental illness has been almost entirely eradicated in the Federation, I wonder how this deals with developmental conditions such as autism, about which there are lots of arguments over whether it is an illness or simply a difference. It's probably a much more in-depth look at something I doubt the writers have really considered.

I think it was Overtly Sexual Woman who bothered me most, actually, as it falls into that really annoying cliche of female sexual confidence and promiscuity seen as a trait of unstable or evil characters. There's more than a hint of it in Mirror Universe Kira as well. Meanwhile, Kirk and Riker are happy to shag their way around the Alpha Quadrant unquestioned.

[Zetetic]

I believe it's set out in TOS that mental illness has been almost entirely eradicated in the Federation, I wonder how this deals with developmental conditions such as autism, about which there are lots of arguments over whether it is an illness or simply a difference.

Yeah, and the broader back and forth about the extent to which the "social model of disability" is a sufficient account of some conditions (versus some conditions perhaps inherently posing problems regardless of how much our society accommodates and supports people with them). Thinking about Melora in the context of DS9.

There are some interesting things in Bashir's backstory: It isn't that his parents wanted a genius so badly - it's as much that they wanted to save him from the indignity of a learning disability (although the term is not used). And that he explicitly experiences the intervention as a loss of identity.

I'm kind of surprised, actually, when thinking back on these things. DS9 steers pretty clear of explicitly interrogating ideas of fairness[nb]Other than in darts.[/nb] and disorders and disability when it comes to the genetic/personal engineering stuff, but doesn't completely ignore it.

[Zetetic]

Edit genius fuck

[purlieu]

I think if they'd had the option of exploring it in more depth, perhaps by having it an open part of Bashir's character from the start, it could have been more interesting and covered more aspects of it. I wonder at what point the showrunners decided on it.

[dr_christian_troy]

There's a lot to look into there. The idea that the Eugenics War lead to Augments being banned as a concept suggests that by definition, the Augment process turns someone into a nasty bastard with superior intelligence and strength that would only be used for the worst possible reasons. While Bashir is at times arrogant, he's a fantastically layered character who is living proof that Augments can be good people who want to do good for others. They certainly could have explored that more.

[Zetetic]

Augments being banned as a concept suggests that by definition, the Augment process turns someone into a nasty bastard with superior intelligence and strength that would only be used for the worst possible reasons

I never really got that sense. I always felt that the (half-arsed) stuff about the Eugenics Wars always hinted at a conviction that it inevitably produced problems for a society, rather than any augmented individual.

[oy vey]

I never really got that sense. I always felt that the (half-arsed) stuff about the Eugenics Wars always hinted at a conviction that it inevitably produced problems for a society, rather than any augmented individual.

Which Enterprise shat on with their Augments arc by creating the shallow individual stereotypes. I've been surprised with Trek's largely negative slant on genetic engineering pretty much all the way with the only exception being Bashir. Don't get me wrong, GE gone wrong gave us the great Khan arc.

I like purlieus idea for Bashir to be openly ge'ed from the start (though I also like his arc as is), which is why I'm not fully invested in them shoehorning in his enhancement background. It's grand but perhaps a missed opportunity in retrospect. Trek had plenty to mine on AI and holograms. A fully open from the outset GE main character sounds great for exploring a variety of human condition issues. Statistical Probabilities didn't really satisfy.

[greenman]

That could have been worked into the Garak relationship quite well too, both with issues about being rejected by parents.

[purlieu]

The Magnificent Ferengi. Well that was silly.

Waltz. Well that was tremendous.

[dr_christian_troy]

The Magnificent Ferengi. Well that was silly.

Waltz. Well that was tremendous.

A solid double-bill that demonstrates the range of tone and pace that DS9 thrived on so well. What did you think of

Spoiler alert

Iggy Pop

[close]

turning up in The Magnificent Ferengi?

[purlieu]

Distracting. I preferred Mick Fleetwood's less obvious role in TNG.

[greenman]

A solid double-bill that demonstrates the range of tone and pace that DS9 thrived on so well. What did you think of

Spoiler alert

Iggy Pop

[close]

turning up in The Magnificent Ferengi?

Worked very well I thought, arguably the only other Vorta who captured the same feeling as Combs.

[petril]

Distracting. I preferred Mick Fleetwood's less obvious role in TNG.

no role Mick Fleetwood does will quite compare to playing himself in The Running Man

[oy vey]

The Magnificent Ferengi. Well that was silly.

Waltz. Well that was tremendous.

Some would have said the opposite. Some would say both to both. I thought both were excellent. The Mag Ferengi is one of my favourite Ferengi eps. Great to see Iggy. He mailed the vorta shtick.

So Dukat's a certified loon now. Cool.

[dr_christian_troy]

So Dukat's a certified loon now. Cool.

I felt that this episode was the "no turning back" moment for Dukat. Before this episode I felt that there was some kind of room for redemption, but then after this it felt like he had become full blow villain, albeit spurred on by trauma.

[purlieu]

It was nice, at this point, to have some clarity about him after a lot of intentional ambiguity over the years. He's been both a villain and almost an ally, but it always felt like there was some pretence there, so it's good to know who he really is, given the show is heading towards its final stretch.

Who Mourns for Morn? Starring Quark as Inspector Clouseau. Possibly the daftest episode of Star Trek I've seen to date. I love a good farce and this was just that. I also enjoyed the meta jokes about Morn near the start, especially his first chair replacement being the actor who plays him.

[oy vey]

The writers laid down their cards with Dukat. I did like the ambiguity, though he was a little to "nice" around the time he found his daughter. As he said last season to Kira "you and me on the same side never really seemed right". Almost like the writers were speaking to us there. There's a threat at this point that the writers have painted themselves into a corner, even coming out with the "evil" word, but Dukat is still a complex character, haunted by Kira's rejection and desperate to be loved despite being a cunt.

Anyway, the Morn episode shows how the writers think of everyone, even the extras, as family. Cool.

[purlieu]

but Dukat is still a complex character, haunted by Kira's rejection and desperate to be loved despite being a cunt.

Yeah, even throughout Waltz he's still quite unpredictable. He's immediately much more interesting a character by being "evil" yet thinking he's on the side of good, rather than a straight-forward pantomime villain. He retains the horrible underlying feeling that, if you met him without knowing his history with the Bajorans, you'd probably think he was quite nice, which ultimately makes him a much more unpleasant character to watch than, say, Weyoun, whose pleasantries are a very unconvincing facade.

[dr_christian_troy]

The generally excellent DS9 documentary includes a very awkward moment where the actor playing Dukat says he always fancied the actress playing Kira (and implications he flirted with her during production), then it cuts to a reaction shot of her (from a separate interview) rolling her eyes uncomfortably. It's never mentioned again but since then their relationship as characters on screen on a re-watch has had an added layer of creepiness for me.

[oy vey]

I also recall Nana Visitor making a gaffe during the interview with Ira Steven Behr where they talked about a plot idea for Kira getting it on with Dukunt. It was a joke by Behr but she says "oh no, anyone but Marc (Alaimo)... doh I mean, Dukat". Seemed like a bit too much of an "oh fuck, did you say Marc?" reaction from everyone.

Also Marc Alaimo came across as quite insecure when he was reminiscing, complaining no-one told him what a good job he was doing. Pure Dukat.

[MojoJojo]

The generally excellent DS9 documentary includes a very awkward moment where the actor playing Dukat says he always fancied the actress playing Kira (and implications he flirted with her during production), then it cuts to a reaction shot of her (from a separate interview) rolling her eyes uncomfortably. It's never mentioned again but since then their relationship as characters on screen on a re-watch has had an added layer of creepiness for me.

I really don't trust that - it's completely made in the edit (we don't know what Nana is rolling her eyes at) and it's copying a characteristic from their characters.