Suzanne Moore quits The Guardian [split topic]

[Kankurette]

Absolutely. Like I said: intersectionality. I've been reading about the Black Panthers, and there was some crossover/support between them and black (and white) communists back in the day, because of a recognition of how economics and race are entwined.

Sorry to hear about the shit time you had at work. Don't suppose you can escalate that kind of thing, can you? Seems well out of line.

I quit my job and that was part of the reason why.

This whole thread and your posts are making me think about that whole hooha about Adele and how loads of black Americans had a go at her for wearing her hair in Bantu knots and a Jamaican flag top, because cultural appropriation etc., while black Brits were defending her. What Americans don't realise is that Adele grew up in a black area, she went to school with black kids and she has more in common with working-class black women than middle-class white women. Even if she's a rich pop star, she's not some posho slumming it or making fun of black people.

[pigamus]

I give up; I cannot support this. I'm doing it, I'm writing an article for The Spectator.

I live in Perry Barr, buy me some Sharpies and I'll see what I can do

[idunnosomename]

gonna rock down to

in - spire avenue

[bgmnts]

You haven't spent much time in so-called progressive circles (especially online) then.

That's it is it?

[Buelligan]

No.

[TrenterPercenter]

This whole thread and your posts are making me think about that whole hooha about Adele and how loads of black Americans had a go at her for wearing her hair in Bantu knots and a Jamaican flag top, because cultural appropriation etc., while black Brits were defending her. What Americans don't realise is that Adele grew up in a black area, she went to school with black kids and she has more in common with working-class black women than middle-class white women. Even if she's a rich pop star, she's not some posho slumming it or making fun of black people.

This is a good point and the whole thing was exagerrated by the UK press to get "lefties" shouting at "righties" so they could have another culture war whilst going "god look at how mad the left is they are now saying hair is racist".

Amazingly for once (and because, and I never thought I would be happy about this, the public seem to genuinly love Adele) it was put back in its box quite quickly because people didn't bite.

[TrenterPercenter]

Btw I think Blue Jams original point had lots of merit to the actual thread making the point about MRAs and TERFs (and is imo very true and insightful consideration).  My point that followed was just expanding on that in which there are similarities between some feminist views on men - and there is something in that if people want to explore this. 

I'm very uncomfortable with a view that any "insert physical characteristic" cannot be discriminated against; i mean would people really want people thinking in that way looking after vulnerable people?! White cis men can still be disabled/injured/raped as a child/have mental health problems that could make them easy targets for discrimination and a world view that assumes that doesn't exist based on their race and sexuality is dangerous for these people. 

I think this is much more about how these things get out of control, it's not useful to think in absolutes or using extreme examples to prove points.  My point isn't to say feminism bad for attacking men in the same way TERFs attack trans (and this is really only about male to female trans you might notice), it's to say perhaps there are ways that feminism could be more inclusive to it's cause (which is still the most important movement on the planet).  I've spoken to lots of people (and they are not all white) for example that are completely into lots of progressive things but when you get down to it can't see that thinking ignorantly about some things is completely counter to these self proclaimed progressive values - which sometimes verge on racism (e.g. a very lovely and progressive Muslim mate who is really struggling with what is going on in India).

Peoples thoughts and feelings are not uniformly held and there often lots of contradictions in thoughts and behaviours.  That is just being human.  However if you want to be a good human you should be reflecting and learning.  In regards to the transphobia, we are all going through it now, proponents of trans rights don't have to get everything right and neither do feminists in that process; but it is incumbant on everyone to cause as little harm as possible whilst these discussions go on.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

1) it's really exhausting having to add NOT ALL MEN OBVIOUSLY whenever I'm talking about violence against women and the attitudes/cultural norms surrounding it

2) you know how there was actual anti-Semitism in the Labour party for the anti-Corbyn crowd to exaggerate and exploit? When you tell people to pipe down about their specific problems because The Class Struggle Is Most Important, you open the door to stuff like that. Then you lose the Asian businessmen and well-off white women to the Conservatives because it comes down to who's going to tax them less. And then a couple of them become politicians and look the Tories can't be racist we have Priti Patel.

it's not impossible to be a decent person. You can run on a platform of greater funding for mental health as well as a raise in the minimum wage. And you can't get cancelled on Twitter if you use Twitter like you're supposed to instead of tweeting out every little brainfart.

[TrenterPercenter]

1) it's really exhausting having to add NOT ALL MEN OBVIOUSLY whenever I'm talking about violence against women and the attitudes/cultural norms surrounding it

2) you know how there was actual anti-Semitism in the Labour party for the anti-Corbyn crowd to exaggerate and exploit? When you tell people to pipe down about their specific problems because The Class Struggle Is Most Important, you open the door to stuff like that. Then you lose the Asian businessmen and well-off white women to the Conservatives because it comes down to who's going to tax them less. And then a couple of them become politicians and look the Tories can't be racist we have Priti Patel.

it's not impossible to be a decent person. You can run on a platform of greater funding for mental health as well as a raise in the minimum wage. And you can't get cancelled on Twitter if you use Twitter like you're supposed to instead of tweeting out every little brainfart.

Agree with nearly all of this; the NAM stuff i'm still puzzles me to this day, i originally thought this came from women taking offence to men generalising women but then it seemed to be about men taking offence to being generalised women. 

I think the solution is either to not generalise and make your disclaimers (I agree it seems an unecessary chore) or everyone grows up and uses their brains to assess the context of what is said and when people are using women and men in a general sense of some, but not all.

I see lots of posters doing this all the time taking offence when they feel generalised about but then generalising when it suits them (with is pretty much what Goblins memes were about).

I mean just take it that if someone is saying women/men without prefixing ALL infront of it then they are not saying all women/men[nb]though of course context might show that someone is being bigoted[/nb].

These things are not hard, it's just applying the same rules to yourself as you'd expect from others.  Nothing to be scared of.

[JaDanketies]

It's not hard to say "some" men or women. If there was a man saying "women are nags" or "women are vain" or "women don't know the meaning of hard work" or something like that, then they would be rightly dismissed as a misogynist and probably viewed with the same disdain we'd view an incel. If 'powerful' people like white people, cis people, heteros, men, are expected to prefix oppressed groups with 'some' when making a statement about them, then I don't see why it's such an unreasonable expectation to expect the same from the oppressed group. And quite often it's some privileged, middle-class, university-educated white woman making a sweeping statement about men, so she's in a powerful position over many of these men she's slandering anyway.

If I see a woman (always on the internet) saying "men are shit" or something equivalent, then I view them with the same disdain I would view a man making a sweeping statement about women. I think they're damaged and don't recognise it; I think they have a mindset that is not too dissimilar to an incel. I'm not personally offended by it, but I do think if the woman knew that she was viewed with such disdain by potentially multiple people, then she would appreciate the utility of the word 'some'.

There are some grey areas. Like the playlist 'songs that never fail to get while people turnt' is good. But I suppose the criticism is on-point and jovial.

[Bazooka]

It's not just ''Not all Men'', it's discussion of the identities and all the 'isms', if someone doesn't have the comprehension to understand the ommitance in the context of the point being made then you can't do much more.

[JaDanketies]

Pretty sure my girlfriend and my mum and my step mum and my grandma, and all the women I love and respect in my life, and all those teachers, and former colleagues, and friends, don't make sweeping negative statements about men on the internet. If I saw a woman I respected saying "men are shits" on Facebook then I would raise an eyebrow and lose some respect for them. I would understand the statement as referring to some of my friends, even if I might think they're not talking about me or my son or my late dad. And I'd expect the same from them if they saw me saying "women are shits", too.

And a lot of the women I'm thinking of are proud, fierce feminists and leftists. Saying "men are shits" makes you sound like someone who just got dumped and is lashing out. It might be that some people think it's wonderful rhetoric, including some men - for me it makes you sound like a clown.

[Buelligan]

We need to split this topic now, I think.  Or start a new thread for men to talk and share anecdotes about how unfair it all is.

[Jumblegraws]

Pretty sure my girlfriend and my mum and my step mum and my grandma, and all the women I love and respect in my life, and all those teachers, and former colleagues, and friends, don't make sweeping negative statements about men on the internet. If I saw a woman I respected saying "men are shits" on Facebook then I would raise an eyebrow and lose some respect for them. I would understand the statement as referring to some of my friends, even if I might think they're not talking about me or my son or my late dad. And I'd expect the same from them if they saw me saying "women are shits", too.

Yeah but you once said you pal around with actual racists and whatnot so I don't see why you should take umbrage in that hypothetical.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

It's not hard to say "some" men or women. If there was a man saying "women are nags" or "women are vain" or "women don't know the meaning of hard work" or something like that, then they would be rightly dismissed as a misogynist

1) it's really exhausting having to add NOT ALL MEN OBVIOUSLY whenever I'm talking about violence against women and the attitudes/cultural norms surrounding it

try dealing with this level of illiteracy and ignorance the entire time and you'll soon get fed up trying to "educate" people too

very few feminists talking about how men are shit, plenty of men imagining that "we live in a patriarchal society and are cued both subtly and overtly that women are sex objects, of course some men take that to its extreme" is the same as "YOU ARE EVIL AND A RAPIST BECAUSE OF YOUR PENIS"

[JaDanketies]

Yeah but you once said you pal around with actual racists and whatnot so I don't see why you should take umbrage in that hypothetical.

I'm not even defending my friends. I love my friends, and when I see someone making a sweeping statement that is negative about them, then it turns me off their argument. Perhaps if I didn't know and love any women I wouldn't give a shit when I see some man making "women are shits" statements, but I do, so when I see it, it makes me think they're a bellend. "Why you talking smack about my mum cos your ex won't let you see the kids?"

Poirot, you might say "very few feminists" are talking about how men are shits, and when you're making sweeping statements about men you're doing so to make a point about violence against women and institutional sexism, but when I was involved in social media arguments I saw this kind of thing all the time. On Facebook particularly. Jessica Valenti got mentioned earlier; she did it every column.

[evilcommiedictator]

Jessica Valenti got mentioned earlier; she did it every column.

So, you've got an anecdote of 1, that columnist being *checks notes* widely hated by everyone for literally writing divisive shit intended to stir up idiots?

[Jockice]

I also really, really hate language policing and the way the online disability community are obsessed with it. Using the word 'stupid' does not hurt me as a disabled woman. It's ATTITUDES which are the problem, like being forced to attend a diversity workshop even though I was having a fibromyalgia flare and was desperate to get home instead of staying over my shift period, and I kept trying to explain to my line manager that having to sit through these things makes me panicky (laugh if you want but it's true). Guess what? I ended up having a meltdown after being made to work with a colleague who hated me, and my line manager was like 'well I've never met an autistic person before' and I said, "Well, now you have."

Tell me about it. I know  people who absolutely flip if you use the word 'vulnerable' to describe them, or indeed any other disabled person. It's probably why all the  government's coronavirus literature (or at least that sent to me) contains the word. To annoy them. Doesn't bother me in the slightest though.

[TrenterPercenter]

very few feminists talking about how men are shit, plenty of men imagining that "we live in a patriarchal society and are cued both subtly and overtly that women are sex objects, of course some men take that to its extreme" is the same as "YOU ARE EVIL AND A RAPIST BECAUSE OF YOUR PENIS"

Hmmm, this isn't how this works you do not need to be overtly discriminatory in order to discriminate.

Forget about rape, the charge than men will fuck anything and only think with their penis is a common sexist trope that is massively embedded in society and upheld by both women and men as it suits.  Men, women, black people etc are not discriminated against in the same way; male discrimination is usually around being unemotional beings, this is a patriachal "strong man" trope that is very useful for establishments that historically used men to kill other men on their behalf.  Lots of women uphold this view, not all, but not a minority either.

When tropes and stereotypes are put into a society, they are designed and are successful because they hold advantageous elements to them; these can be for both the subject of the stereotype and audience.  Men are unemotional but are good at driving, Women are emotional but good at listening. Groups take on these stereotypes and internalise them into their being (It's akin to something called self stigma) it's just much more likely for groups to internalise positive aspects of what are really stigmatising views.

[Kankurette]

This is a good point and the whole thing was exagerrated by the UK press to get "lefties" shouting at "righties" so they could have another culture war whilst going "god look at how mad the left is they are now saying hair is racist".

Amazingly for once (and because, and I never thought I would be happy about this, the public seem to genuinly love Adele) it was put back in its box quite quickly because people didn't bite.

I was really glad to see so many black Brits sticking up for her because I'm from south London myself - Lewisham/Brockley - and there are parts of London where you've got people of all backgrounds growing up side by side. And that's the thing a lot of Americans gegging in didn't get. The context.

I'm sick to death of culture wars. Like the whole FONY thing and twats like Fox trying to drag the Pogues into a culture war when they themselves were fine with the censorship. It's a distraction. People seeing some throwaway comment about female Santas or whatever and blowing it out of proportion.

1) it's really exhausting having to add NOT ALL MEN OBVIOUSLY whenever I'm talking about violence against women and the attitudes/cultural norms surrounding it

2) you know how there was actual anti-Semitism in the Labour party for the anti-Corbyn crowd to exaggerate and exploit? When you tell people to pipe down about their specific problems because The Class Struggle Is Most Important, you open the door to stuff like that. Then you lose the Asian businessmen and well-off white women to the Conservatives because it comes down to who's going to tax them less. And then a couple of them become politicians and look the Tories can't be racist we have Priti Patel.

it's not impossible to be a decent person. You can run on a platform of greater funding for mental health as well as a raise in the minimum wage. And you can't get cancelled on Twitter if you use Twitter like you're supposed to instead of tweeting out every little brainfart.

Yep. I'm Jewish myself. I've been on the receiving end of antisemitism - and I'm not talking about pro-Palestine stuff, I mean actual 'Jews are hated for a reason' type stuff - from people on the left and while I stayed in the Labour Party and voted Labour, other Jewish friends of mine refused to vote Labour because they were so fed up with it all. And these people aren't Tories, not at all.

Speaking of which, I hate the idea that all Jews are loaded. I wish I was, but translation doesn't pay that well.

[thugler]

Hmmm, this isn't how this works you do not need to be overtly discriminatory in order to discriminate.

Forget about rape, the charge than men will fuck anything and only think with their penis is a common sexist trope that is massively embedded in society and upheld by both women and men as it suits.  Men, women, black people etc are not discriminated in the same way; male discrimination is usually around being unemotional beings, this is a patriachal "strong man" trope that is very useful for establishments that historically used men to kill other men on their behalf.  Lots of women uphold this view, not all, but not a minority either.

When tropes and stereotypes are put into a society, they are designed and are successful because they hold advantageous elements to them; these can be for both the subject of the stereotype and audience.  Men are unemotional but are good at driving, Women are emotional but good at listening. Groups take on these stereotypes and internalise them into their being (It's akin to something called self stigma) it's just much more likely for groups to internalise positive aspects of what are really stigmatising views.

It's often forgotten that these tropes/stereotypes are damaging to both in and out groups. They make people feel inadequate or weird when they don't live up to them, while others use them as an excuse to behave appallingly. there's so much that is simplified in this regard when children are young so that it's easy for them to understand, but the effect is that there is no nuance or understanding of the vast spectrum of difference within say the sex categories of male or female, to the point that any divergence from what they assume is normal stands out.

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm Jewish myself. I've been on the receiving end of antisemitism - and I'm not talking about pro-Palestine stuff, I mean actual 'Jews are hated for a reason' type stuff - from people on the left and while I stayed in the Labour Party and voted Labour, other Jewish friends of mine refused to vote Labour because they were so fed up with it all. And these people aren't Tories, not at all.

Sorry to hear this that is shit.  Obviously this has caused quite the problem between members who seem to think it is either/or and to consider somethings to have not been handled well by some people is akin being a "trojan horse" or traitor.

This is however veering quite off the topic and well, you've seen the Labour thread it isn't worth repeating what goes on in there anywhere else.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Poirot, you might say "very few feminists" are talking about how men are shits, and when you're making sweeping statements about men you're doing so to make a point about violence against women and institutional sexism

See? No fucking talking to you. If I talk about institutionalised sexism, you read that as "making sweeping statements about men". SHUT UP ABOUT SEXISM, YOU'RE BEING PREJUDICED AGAINST MEN. How am I supposed to "educate" you? Lovingly suck you off while I hold up flash cards about what a wonderful feminist you are because you love your mother?

This is however veering quite off the topic and well, you've seen the Labour thread it isn't worth repeating what goes on in there anywhere else.

Yes Kankurette, shut up about your Jewish problems, this isn't the time or place even though the conversation naturally evolved in this direction. We have to talk about men and how toxic the left are, with their identity politics and the like.

[TrenterPercenter]

Yes Kankurette, shut up about your Jewish problems, this isn't the time or place even though the conversation naturally evolved in this direction. We have to talk about men and how toxic the left are, with their identity politics and the like.

Let's leave it up to Kankurette to decide whether she was being told to "shut up" or not.

Kankurette i'm very sorry if that came across as that I'm happy to discuss this further if you'd like.

EDIT: btw I also think the a lot of the male stuff is off topic also FWIW

[canadagoose]

Now that I can agree with, as a feminist who is pro-trans inclusion and would like to see some solidarity with trans women rather than treating them as THE ENEMY. I also really, really hate language policing and the way the online disability community are obsessed with it. Using the word 'stupid' does not hurt me as a disabled woman. It's ATTITUDES which are the problem, like being forced to attend a diversity workshop even though I was having a fibromyalgia flare and was desperate to get home instead of staying over my shift period, and I kept trying to explain to my line manager that having to sit through these things makes me panicky (laugh if you want but it's true). Guess what? I ended up having a meltdown after being made to work with a colleague who hated me, and my line manager was like 'well I've never met an autistic person before' and I said, "Well, now you have."

Of course Moore is writing for a right-wing paper. They always do in the end.

Huh, you sound a bit like me. Don't suppose you're into Depeche Mode as well? That'd be the icing on the cake.

Also, I have to clarify that Valenti is not a TERF. She's... not that sort. Not being from Terf Island helps.

[Jumblegraws]

I'm not even defending my friends. I love my friends, and when I see someone making a sweeping statement that is negative about them, then it turns me off their argument. Perhaps if I didn't know and love any women I wouldn't give a shit when I see some man making "women are shits" statements, but I do, so when I see it, it makes me think they're a bellend. "Why you talking smack about my mum cos your ex won't let you see the kids?"

You sound a bit self-involved tbh. There's no significant inconsistency into giving a pass to a woman remarking that man are disgusting but objecting to insulting generalisations about historically oppressed groups because, while ostensibly similar as a mode of expressing a viewpoint, the motivations and impact are significantly different. 

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

Is mens offended by

[TrenterPercenter]

I don't really understand it (its just over my head) but i very much doubt as a mens i would be offended by it if I did.

Can I ask why is it often the concern/focus on men being offended? Is it possible they could be just hurt by things or experiencing emotional pain like anyone else?  Most people feel uncomfortable with admitting to these things and i'm fully aware that men themselves will tend stay away from the idea of things affecting them emotionally.

Personally I'd just take it as read that when some bloke is saying they are offended by something that they are really just saying it hurts to be considered that way.  Seems a perfectly good bridge to go, yeah that is exactly how it feels when you are talking about women that way.

All depends on what you want to acheive I guess.

[Ferris]

Still, that Suzanne Moore is a rum one eh?

[TrenterPercenter]

Still, that Suzanne Moore is a rum one eh?

Yeah.  Did anyone see the Owen Jones and Piers Morgan thing on YT.  They covered this quite a bit and you got to know a bit of background that Moore was being very silent about i.e. that there had been big disagreement with the UK and US Guardian approaches to trans issues for quite sometime and Moore was openly disavowing what had been decided as an approach.  It wasn't just one day she turned up and everyone blanked her (though we knew this already).

The rest of the debate was reasonably interesting and I think Piers even gave concessions to the fact more needs to be done for trans rights and some vague promises of doing more in the future.