Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[surreal]

Someone fixed it now anyway:

https://twitter.com/Josh_Scully/status/1003996810749173762

(sorry, twitter embedded video, can't find it on YT)

[greenman]

Someone suggested that Episode IX should just be Rey and Rose on a trip to scatter Leia's ashes, just to piss off the alt right fans.

Maybe Disney could sell the right for that to the Lib Dems for a party political broadcast?

[St_Eddie]

Someone fixed it now anyway:

https://twitter.com/Josh_Scully/status/1003996810749173762

(sorry, twitter embedded video, can't find it on YT)

That 'fixes' absolutely nothing.  Sure, it removes the ridiculous shot of Leia flying like Superman but it makes the second common complaint of that scene ten times worse (namely; that Leia is suddenly shown to have incredible force powers, despite her having no training).

[Kelvin]

That 'fixes' absolutely nothing.  Sure, it removes the ridiculous shot of Leia flying like Superman but it makes the second common complaint of that scene ten times worse (namely; that Leia is suddenly shown to have incredible force powers, despite her having no training).

I'm fairly sure it's a joke, St Eddie.

[St_Eddie]

I'm fairly sure it's a joke, St Eddie.

I just read an article about said 'fix' and yes, it does appear to have been intended as a joke.

In my defense, it's sometimes hard to tell, when it comes to Star Wars fans.

[Mister Six]

That 'fixes' absolutely nothing.  Sure, it removes the ridiculous shot of Leia flying like Superman but it makes the second common complaint of that scene ten times worse (namely; that Leia is suddenly shown to have incredible force powers, despite her having no training).

No training? Her brother was a Jedi master for the best part of 25 years. I'm sure he gave her a pointer or two.

(And if he didn't so what? It's a magical power that Rey was able to use in far more complex ways without even knowing about it - force-pulling oneself to an airlock isn't that impressive by comparison.)

[Kelvin]

Exactly. She force pulled in the vacuum of space. There nothing "incredible" about it.

[St_Eddie]

No training? Her brother was a Jedi master for the best part of 25 years. I'm sure he gave her a pointer or two.

Not according to Rain Johnson...

[ON HOW LEIA WAS ABLE TO PULL OFF SUCH A FEAT WITH NO PRIOR TRAINING] "Cause she's a badass muthafucka.  I guess the fact that she's in zero G and that space offers no resistance meant (to me) that it wasn't a big feat at all – kinda minimal, in fact."

(And if he didn't so what? It's a magical power that Rey was able to use in far more complex ways without even knowing about it - force-pulling oneself to an airlock isn't that impressive by comparison.)

This implies that I and other people who are critical of this moment, didn't also take issue with Rey's use of the force, with no prior training.  We did.  Very much so.

Exactly. She force pulled in the vacuum of space. There nothing "incredible" about it.

You and others (including Rian Jonson) are in agreement.  I and others are not.  Such is the nature of opinion.  That moment didn't ring true for me, at all.

[Mister Six]

I'm with Johnson on that one. She's the daughter of Jedi Jesus - pulling herself through zero gravity is nothing, comparatively speaking, and it's not like her being from a family of Force users hasn't been established for almost 40 years. Complaints about that are silly, I think. It's a great moment and looked to be setting up (insofar as anyone at Lucasfilm gives a damn about planning any more) a decent development for the character that will sadly now never be explored.

Rey is genuinely egregious, on that and many other levels.

[St_Eddie]

Rey is genuinely egregious, on that and many other levels.

Well, at least we're in agreement on that front.

[Dr Rock]

I think The Force should have some limits. One of them is of you are in the vacuum of space you can't simply put a force-field around your body and push yourself to safety. It don't care if you're Luke Skywalker, Yoda or Darth Vader, it's going too far, you are too powerful if you can survive in that environment. The Emperor gets thrown down a big shaft in ROTJ - well I guess he's powerful enough to put a force-field round his body and survive.

Other ways I don't think a Jedi can use The Force include turning sand into water if you are lost in a desert, being able to grow 100 foot tall, being able to shrink to the size of a mouse and being able to suck your own cock.

[St_Eddie]

I think The Force should have some limits. One of them is of you are in the vacuum of space you can't simply put a force-field around your body and push yourself to safety. It don't care if you're Luke Skywalker, Yoda or Darth Vader, it's going too far, you are too powerful if you can survive in that environment. The Emperor gets thrown down a big shaft in ROTJ - well I guess he's powerful enough to put a force-field round his body and survive.

Other ways I don't think a Jedi can use The Force include turning sand into water if you are lost in a desert, being able to grow 100 foot tall, being able to shrink to the size of a mouse and being able to suck your own cock.

Agreed.  Especially on the last point.  The Jedi would be far too preoccupied, to spend any time saving the galaxy from evil, if they possessed the power to force-nosh themselves.

[phantom_power]

Did she put a forcefield around her body? She seemed to suffer from the effects of space quite a bit. Also, Luke is ridiculously skilled with no explanation in ANH. He can pilot an X-Wing with no training somehow, and use the force to direct his shots without the navi-computer. See also Anakin in TPM. It is fairly well established in the Star Wars world that a Jedi (and a Skywalker) does not need training to use their powers, more to be able to control them and master them

[Replies From View]

"Rey" isn't even a real name.  It autocorrects to "Try".

Call her "Rex" or something.

[St_Eddie]

...Luke is ridiculously skilled with no explanation in ANH. He can pilot an X-Wing with no training somehow, and use the force to direct his shots without the navi-computer.

"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home.  They're not much bigger than two meters." - Luke Skywalker

It is fairly well established in the Star Wars world that a Jedi (and a Skywalker) does not need training to use their powers, more to be able to control them and master them

Maybe so but how that equates to Leia pulling her superman trick or Rey lifting all of those massive boulders, with little to no training, is beyond me.

[popcorn]

The new films have some serious naming problems. Rey, Ren, Ben, Finn, Andor (Endor?), Jyn (Qui-Gonn Jinn?).

???? ????????? ??

[Dr Rock]

Did she put a forcefield around her body? She seemed to suffer from the effects of space quite a bit.

Hmm, admittedly possibly not. A human can survive in space for a very short time (about 30 seconds) if they have emptied their lungs so they don't explode from the pressure difference - Leia was knocked out so well give her that. Ice was forming on her body so she probably didn't have a force-field then, once she opened her eyes, maybe all she did was propel herself to the spaceship where they have an airlock, or something. Seemed like she was in space a bit too long, flying like Superman included, but it's possible. I figured she must've made some kind of shield from space to survive, but science says not necessarily.

[St_Eddie]

Hmm, admittedly possibly not. A human can survive in space for a very short time (about 30 seconds) if they have emptied their lungs so they don't explode from the pressure difference - Leia was knocked out so well give her that. Ice was forming on her body so she probably didn't have a force-field then, once she opened her eyes, maybe all she did was propel herself to the spaceship where they have an airlock, or something. Seemed like she was in space a bit too long, flying like Superman included, but it's possible. I figured she must've made some kind of shield from space to survive, but science says not necessarily.

The science of the scene has never been my issue with it, personally speaking.  It's a fantasy movie, after all.  It's more of a conceptional issue that I take with the scene, in terms of the depiction of the force and more specifically, in terms of who's wielding it, given what we know about both the force and Leia, from the previous movies.  It just didn't sit right with me and I felt that the scene was a betrayal of the established lore and the rules of an established universe, no matter how fantastical that universe may be.

[buzby]

Luke is ridiculously skilled with no explanation in ANH. He can pilot an X-Wing with no training somehow,

He already had some skill as a pilot back on Tatooine

I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.

A T16 Skyhopper (it's the model we see him playing with in the farmhouse):

There is also his comment about the trench run being 'Just like Beggar's Canyon back home'  to Biggs as they are running in for the final attack run.

and use the force to direct his shots without the navi-computer.

I don't think he directed his torpedoes with the Force, he uses it to 'feel' when to pull the trigger rather than using the computer rangefinder. As Obi-Wan says to him in the training remote scene, 'Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them.... Stretch out with your feelings.'

[phantom_power]

I don't think he directed his torpedoes with the Force, he uses it to 'feel' when to pull the trigger rather than using the computer rangefinder. As Obi-Wan says to him in the training remote scene, 'Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them.... Stretch out with your feelings.'

And he does this with very little training? That seems to me just as difficult as lifting up some rocks or pulling yourself to safety when faced with great danger.

This idea that just because he can pilot one vehicle he can pilot another is also a bit of a stretch. The same with Anakin being able to drive a pod racer and an X-Wing despite being 6 or whatever. Star Wars, and sci-fi and fantasy in general, has never had a problem with people being preternaturally talented at things that other people have to work harder for so why complain now?

[St_Eddie]

Star Wars, and sci-fi and fantasy in general, has never had a problem with people being preternaturally talented at things that other people have to work harder for so why complain now?

Because it's not black or white.  It's degrees of believably and suspension of disbelief.  How far that suspension extents, depends greatly upon one's own variance of mileage.  For me, I never questioned the events of the original trilogy, in regards to the use of the force.  Whereas, The Last Jedi took my suspension of disbelief and beat it to death and then set fire to the corpse for good measure.

[Blumf]

That's the whole problem with TLJ, it's a long slog of suspension of disbelief popping scenes/events.

It starts off making you wonder why they're acting so stupid, and then it just keeps going from there. Even stuff, that normally you'd ignore, ends up getting caught in this failure as you're now cued up to look for holes.

From the very start you have: "Why don't they just shoot Poe", "Why don't they deploy their TIE fighters?", "Why are the bombers so slow?", "huh, are those bombs falling by gravity?", "Why is Leia bollocking Poe, he was performing his mission as you all must have agreed?"

Maybe one or two of those could pass and still leave your suspension of disbelief intact, but all of them? You're now set up to nitpick, and for the rest of the film big problems and little niggles alike keep on coming. The film begs you to rip it apart.

[St_Eddie]

That's the whole problem with TLJ, it's a long slog of suspension of disbelief popping scenes/events.

It starts off making you wonder why they're acting so stupid, and then it just keeps going from there. Even stuff, that normally you'd ignore, ends up getting caught in this failure as you're now cued up to look for holes.

From the very start you have: "Why don't they just shoot Poe", "Why don't they deploy their TIE fighters?", "Why are the bombers so slow?", "huh, are those bombs falling by gravity?", "Why is Leia bollocking Poe, he was performing his mission as you all must have agreed?"

Maybe one or two of those could pass and still leave your suspension of disbelief intact, but all of them? You're now set up to nitpick, and for the rest of the film big problems and little niggles alike keep on coming. The film begs you to rip it apart.

I concur.

[Mister Six]

Like Johnson says, Leia's pulling herself through a vacuum. She's not doing anything complex, just moving in a straight line with no resistance, presumably as a reflex. She's also the daughter of a dude who was spontaneously generated by midichlorians, the twin sister of a great Jedi master and the mother of a Sith lord.

There are plenty of problems with the film, but Leia reflexively rescuing herself isn't one of them, at least as far as lore and continuity is concerned.

[Dr Rock]

It looks stupid. I can almost accept it if it looked better somehow.

I'm totally fine with Leia having strong Force powers, I said at the time of TFA that it was a shame that Leia seemed to have not developed any Force powers.... maybe after ROTJ there was all peace so she didn't feel the need. Once her son became part of the bad guys, she should've had a crash course, as going back into battle it would be enormously useful. And it would have given Leia some cool scenes, she kicks ass physically in the OT, she's a bit too old for that in the new movies but a reveal that she had Force powers in that film would've made the scene in TLJ better. If it was shot better of course. 

[phantom_power]

Because it's not black or white.  It's degrees of believably and suspension of disbelief.  How far that suspension extents, depends greatly upon one's own variance of mileage.  For me, I never questioned the events of the original trilogy, in regards to the use of the force.  Whereas, The Last Jedi took my suspension of disbelief and beat it to death and then set fire to the corpse for good measure.

Could it possibly have something to do with how old you are when you saw them and how developed your critical faculties were?

[St_Eddie]

Could it possibly have something to do with how old you are when you saw them and how developed your critical faculties were?

Not really.  I'm extremely casual in my appreciation of Star Wars.  I don't even own the movies on DVD or Blu-Ray (original trilogy included) and I own a lot of DVDs and Blu-Rays.  I certainly don't hold the original movies to some kind of golden standard, as I consider the original trilogy to be flawed, overly simplistic and generally overrated but entertaining none the less, with fantastic design elements, a tremendous soundtrack and a decent three act structure.

It's got nothing to do with age.  It's got everything to do with relatively well written, or at the very least passionately written scripts, in comparison to the production line shite that's passing itself of as Star Wars these days and being churned out every year, like chemically infused, uncooked sausages on a conveyor belt, working their way directly into the hungry but rarely satiated mouths of the consumer.  That's just my own opinion, of course.

[bgmnts]

Not really.  I'm extremely casual in my appreciation of Star Wars. 

lol

[Kelvin]

He means he calls them movies, not films.

[St_Eddie]

Keep 'em coming, folks.  Keep 'em coming.

I'm done with this thread.  It's not worth the insults and like I said, I don't care enough about Star Wars to put up with this shite.  Have fun.