Anyone had any success of converting people out of horrid Youtubers?

[TrenterPercenter]

Does your friend know and spend time around many women that he (presumably) doesn't want to have sex with, like sisters or his Mother or colleagues he gets on OK with (or maybe even friends, although he doesn't sound like the kind of person who has female friends)? Maybe ask him what he'd think of them being subject to the kind of ideas and life the berks on these videos think they should have.

Well he is married to an attractive immigrant (Brazilian).  Like I say this is out of character for him (the right wing stuff, he is an angry obessive).  It all started really with idea of free speech where he see's Peterson as the person standing up to its near extinction and along side that came a lot of his other views.  I didn't even know some of them where Petersons (i mean they are not they are standard anti-left tropes) until I did some more research.

[Danger Man]

Well he is married to an attractive immigrant (Brazilian).

Your friend is Milverton.

[TrenterPercenter]

Big Question:

Does Peterson make Jung and his ideas look poisonous in retrospect?

I would say no as they are clearly different things.

[Icehaven]

Well he is married to an attractive immigrant (Brazilian).

Happy marriage, is it?

[garbed_attic]

I would say no as they are clearly different things.

Yeh - but he is a Jungian psychologist and draws his archetypes and model of personal-spiritual development from Jung. It's just that he then adds all the evol-psych and self-help aspects on top, peppered with his weirdly intense fatherly anecdotes.

[Wet Blanket]

Jordan Peterson always seems to me like an old-school conservative fuddy-duddy who has accidentally become a darling of the alt-right. I can imagine him and Peter Hitchens having a lot in common. At brass tacks his schtick is pull up your bootstraps and stop expecting the world to owe you a living isn't it? It's pretty trite but he speaks to the incel crowd in language they understand, and in that respect I reckon he could be as much of a gateway drug out of the hard right as much as into it.

I would suggest that the OP direct their friend to more mainstream conservative commentators who will probably appeal to his worldview but offer a more nuanced version of it. They're never going to buy tickets to see Owen Jones at Labour Live but you might direct them towards the more reasonable end of Centrist Dad-dom. Get them a subscription to The Economist or something.

[ieXush2i]

I know virtually nothing about this bloke (only really seen him mentioned here) but Googled the 12 Rules for Life, and I'd actually be interested to read how this banal shite;

1.Stand up straight with your shoulders back
2.Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping
3.Make friends with people who want the best for you
4.Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today
5.Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
6.Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world
7.Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
8.Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie
9.Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't
10.Be precise in your speech
11.Do not bother children when they are skateboarding
12.Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street

can somehow be expanded into an apparent incel tract. Is it a case of wilful (mis)interpretation or does it say things like ''Do not bother children when they're skateboarding - unless they're girls in which case take their skateboard off them and send them home to their Fathers.''

All those seemingly reasonable and banal self-help tropes are the lure. Each one is basically backed up by reams of pseudoscience that generally point to "men and women have to go back to the way it was in the 80s, eh? Also, Post Modern Cultural Marxists are destroying the world!"

[Funcrusher]

All those seemingly reasonable and banal self-help tropes are the lure. Each one is basically backed up by reams of pseudoscience that generally point to "men and women have to go back to the way it was in the 80s, eh? Also, Post Modern Cultural Marxists are destroying the world!"

So you have read it?

[ieXush2i]

Yeh - but he is a Jungian psychologist and draws his archetypes and model of personal-spiritual development from Jung. It's just that he then adds all the evol-psych and self-help aspects on top, peppered with his weirdly intense fatherly anecdotes.

He just wanks on and on and on about Jung as if he's the be all and end all, rather than generally scientifically discredited but introduced some interesting ideas and is vital to the history of psychology.

Anyone else who has studied Jung appears to think Peterson misunderstands him completely. This also goes for pretty much every subject he wanders into - experts in whichever field find him completely ridiculous and brimming with Not Even Wrongness.

Also lol at Danger Man trying a version of "aaaah but have you read everything he's done? Then you can't say owt" drivel defence

I've read the prologue, a couple of chapters and excerpts.

[ieXush2i]

Well he is married to an attractive immigrant (Brazilian).  Like I say this is out of character for him (the right wing stuff, he is an angry obessive).  It all started really with idea of free speech where he see's Peterson as the person standing up to its near extinction and along side that came a lot of his other views.  I didn't even know some of them where Petersons (i mean they are not they are standard anti-left tropes) until I did some more research.

If you haven't seen this it might prove useful https://www.patreon.com/posts/jordan-peterson-17972181

[Danger Man]

Also lol at Danger Man trying a version of "aaaah but have you read everything he's done? Then you can't say owt" drivel defence

You've really lost the plot.

[Icehaven]

All those seemingly reasonable and banal self-help tropes are the lure. Each one is basically backed up by reams of pseudoscience that generally point to "men and women have to go back to the way it was in the 80s, eh? Also, Post Modern Cultural Marxists are destroying the world!"

The 1980s when the UK had a female PM? Or does it mean the 1880s?
Obviously I haven't read it or anything else by him and as I've admitted I know next to nothing about him, I was just genuinely curious, given the apparent levels of disagreement about the true intentions behind his work, as to how much could be down to the reader's interpretation rather than being blatantly pro-incel. I'm not being facetious or anything, I have considerable professional interest in how books can be interpreted to mean what the reader wants them to mean rather than what's actually on the page so when there's an (increasingly rare) occasion of a high-profile debate provoked by a book/author's 'real' intentions I'm naturally interested. I should probably just read it. 

[Danger Man]

He's a Christian who seems to have been with his wife since he was seven.

Your typical Incel.

[ieXush2i]

The 1980s when the UK had a female PM? Or does it mean the 1880s?
Obviously I haven't read it or anything else by him and as I've admitted I know next to nothing about him, I was just genuinely curious, given the apparent levels of disagreement about the true intentions behind his work, as to how much could be down to the reader's interpretation rather than being blatantly pro-incel.

Sorry, 1950s. Typo.

This video might give you an idea https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6T47opnLyFw

[pigamus]

You've really lost the plot.

Yeah, "Have you actually read his book" and "Have you read everything he's ever done" are clearly not the same thing.

[newbridge]

The appeal of JP is very simple. He taps into the fact that even privileged individuals who belong to a dominant class (white, male) can be miserable sadsacks. But by virtue of being socioeconomically privileged, they are also inherently egotistical and thus cannot comprehend criticisms of social hierarchy (white people, men) as anything other than a personal attack and a denial of their sadsackdom.

[ieXush2i]

Yeah, "Have you actually read his book" and "Have you read everything he's ever done" are clearly not the same thing.

It's a variation; I could have sat through every lecture and interview he's given on the book and his mad guff and it still would have been "ah but have you read his booooook".

As it is, I've read enough unless it turns into Will Self halfway through.

[Funcrusher]

The appeal of JP is very simple. He taps into the fact that even privileged individuals who belong to a dominant class (white, male) can be miserable sadsacks. But by virtue of being socioeconomically privileged, they are also inherently egotistical and thus cannot comprehend criticisms of social hierarchy (white people, men) as anything other than a personal attack and a denial of their sadsackdom.

The competition to see who can create the most vitriolic characterisation of Jordan Peterson readers, thus at the same time revealing your own moral splendidness, is hotting up with that entry.

[jobotic]

The competition to see who can create the most vitriolic characterisation of Jordan Peterson readers, thus at the same time revealing your own moral splendidness, is hotting up with that entry.

How do you know it's vitriolic? You've barely heard of him, right?

[Funcrusher]

How do you know it's vitriolic? You've barely heard of him, right?

The characterisation of the subjects of the post was vitriolic based on reading the post. I understand that it's okay to draw various conclusions about Peterson's book without having read a word of it.

[newbridge]

The competition to see who can create the most vitriolic characterisation of Jordan Peterson readers, thus at the same time revealing your own moral splendidness, is hotting up with that entry.

I think my characterization was fairly sympathetic.

[ieXush2i]

The competition to see who can create the most vitriolic characterisation of Jordan Peterson readers, thus at the same time revealing your own moral splendidness, is hotting up with that entry.

But you know nothing of his work and wonder why people would think you're a fan

[Funcrusher]

But you know nothing of his work and wonder why people would think you're a fan

If by people you mean you, I don't really wonder.

[ieXush2i]

And Newbridge. This happened on the previous page.

[Funcrusher]

And Newbridge. This happened on the previous page.

If by people you mean you and Newbridge, I don't really wonder.

[ErnestTakadichi]

I'm starting to develop a sense for this, the same way you can tell what an old person is leading up to when they say a place is "not what it used to be."

Met a mate the other week, how's your love life I asked, (foolishly in hindsight.) Cue a rambling spiel about alpha males in nightclubs, men going their own way, biology, psychology, radical feminists, Aziz Ansari and then, to cap it off he asks, "have I heard of this professor, he's made some great videos...."  I fucking knew it.

[ieXush2i]

So incurious.

Why would anyone have vitriol for the SMART man who just wants to help people better themselves, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVA3gdDJlq8

[manticore]

Really though I think looking at the way Liberial/Left are used totally interchangeable across much of the more alt right parts of the net I'd say tells you why the two have been so successfully mixed, its a message that both sides have been happy to push.

The strength of the appeal of someone like Peterson ends up being IMHO that people can look at much of the mainstream media pushing capitalist neoliberialsm with a fig leaf of social liberialism and make the conclusion yes he's correct.

I agree and I think if the left turns to talking about solidarity and the fact that the individual responsibility Peterson talks about would only make sense in the context of mutual aid and real community it would have a better chance of countering him. Peterson thinks he's critiquing 'radicals' but he's actually attacking modern forms of liberalism, and the truths in what he says are part of his appeal. 

[TrenterPercenter]

Happy marriage, is it?

It doesn't appear so at the moment.

[TrenterPercenter]

If you haven't seen this it might prove useful https://www.patreon.com/posts/jordan-peterson-17972181

Thanks for this it is a great resource.

Just clicked on one of the things about the pay gap and just read about Petersons thoughts on womens birth control...which again was almost word for word what my friend was saying. Jeeesus wtf.