So Solid Corbs - 21 Deselections To Go

[biggytitbo]

No party leader is ever going to appeal to everyone, but let's not forget Corbyn in 2017 got the largest share and vote since Blair in 97. And this is, by UK political standards, as a radical and in the face of a collosal coordinated smear campaign. How this can be painted as not doing well enough is beyond me. How does he appeal to more people in a very divided era? By having more bland mush policies that don't mean anything like everyone else?

[greenman]

It's because they support the status quo that serves them and their class so well. They're better than the tories in that they believe in tossing the plebs a fish every now and then to appease them, but only whilst wholeheartedly supporting the establishment consensus on literally every thing fundamental that matters. The problem is, at an almost exponential rate since 2007, that world view that has served them well for some long has totally unravelled and they have no meaningful answers as to what to do next.

That is, of course, the reason they have to make it so personal as they have nothing else essentially but more of the same. Kore of the same whilst smashing your head against a brick wall that is.

What I think you have mixed in with this though is ego, people have been sold the idea of "grown up politics" being a neoliberal technocracy so well that rejection of it becomes to much of a dent in their pride to do.

I would say as well that very often the lack of detail simply comes from lack of knowledge, really New Labour was never sold on serious detail, it was sold on the idea that it was serious and adult whilst anything to the left was childish idealism.

Being forced to consider inequality as well is not I think something many enjoy, the person serving you at Tesco being invisible or at most just someone doing it for a few months before moving onto something better(as they might have done in their youth) was the default mindset for many IMHO.

[Zetetic]

The last election proved that proper labour policies are popular

Yes. And that Corbyn was fairly popular amongst certain voters - particularly young.

It also proved that they, and Corbyn, and the current Tory party, and anything perceived to threaten the identity tied up with voting for Brexit  are extremely unpopular.

The challenge is not only getting people to vote for you, it's getting people not to vote for the others.

[Replies From View]

it just marks Corbynistas out as narrow-minded name callers who won't hear a word against their beloved leader.

Yeah, I mean you're open-minded to Corbyn being labelled an antisemite by people with the power to shape the thoughts of the voting population, why on earth can't we unquestioningly embrace it as well??  Calling those who benefit from the status quo "centrist dads" is far, far worse.


(Whoops, sorry I was being cultist there by not agreeing with you.)

[biggytitbo]

That is true about the grown up politics thing, the problem with that attitude is it's oblivious to reality. It's nearly 2020, not the mid 90s anymore, that brand of serious grown up third way technocracy has reached the end of the road, it's not only run out of solutions to our problems (not that im saying it ever had any), it's actively the cause of many of them. Clinton/Blair style centrism is the man persisting with his Amiga in 1999, still clinging on to the hope that doom will come out on it.

[Dr Rock]

The challenge is not only getting people to vote for you, it's getting people not to vote for the others.

Unless it's UKIP. I've always said that Labour stands a much better chance of winning a GE if a party like UKIP, cunts that they are, steal Tory votes. And they are rising in the polls due to Tory mishandling of Brexit.

[Zetetic]

^ Mmm. Splitting the vote works too.

No party leader is ever going to appeal to everyone, but let's not forget Corbyn in 2017 got the largest share and vote since Blair in 97.

While May got the largest share since Thatcher in 1983 and number of votes since Major in 1992.

Corbyn, and the change in manifesto and the identity of the party that went with things, clearly attracted many more people to vote for Labour than in previous years. (Even these things aren't alone and we shouldn't forget the thankfully atrocious state of the Conservative party.)

We might recognise that these things have had a similar effect on possible Conservative voters - whether or not they're were returning from UKIP.

(Not that, to be clear, I think there's an easy way forward on this. There are no convincing alternatives to Corbyn at this time, the response to frankly trivial policies scaring voters should be about presentation, and we shouldn't be aiming to attract xenophobes.)

[Huxleys Babkins]

Where were all these labour centrist people when we had a centrist leader and lame half arsed centrist policies? And in the leadership election with a number of big name centrists to choose from.

They voted for Cameron. His Tory party was centre-right.

No party leader is ever going to appeal to everyone, but let's not forget Corbyn in 2017 got the largest share and vote since Blair in 97. And this is, by UK political standards, as a radical and in the face of a collosal coordinated smear campaign. How this can be painted as not doing well enough is beyond me. How does he appeal to more people in a very divided era? By having more bland mush policies that don't mean anything like everyone else?

Err, yes.

Do you want to be in government or do you want to sit on the opposition benches for another term but with the moral high ground having given it another bloody good go?

The rules of this game are long established. No, the media aren't fair. No, the Tories won't play fair either. No, FPTP isn't fair. No, the boundary changes weren't fair. Yes, the electorate are morons. But this is what it is. This is the system we have and the one Corbyn signed up to take part in.

If he can't play he'll doom us to another term of the Tories. The arithmetic is in their court.

[Buelligan]

When I was 18, university wasn't considered to be the only option, and there were opportunities for all.

When was this?

You know, Brexit is quite a biggie for me.  I've invested everything, absolutely everything, on the basis that I have the right to live in mainland Europe.  That's now under doubt.  If it changes, what are my options?  I have no fallback.  I could be as fucked as it comes and yet I can still support Corbyn because I understand that it's not all about me and my little life.  There's something far, far, bigger at stake.  I hope very much indeed that you see that before it's too late (I say that in a sincere spirit of comradely friendship).

And you talk about voting Liberal, like you can draw a veil over their selling us down the river for a bit of power.  You can live with that but you can't forgive Corbyn for (?).  You need to think about this, I think.

[Replies From View]

Do you want to be in government or do you want to sit on the opposition benches for another term but with the moral high ground having given it another bloody good go?

The rules of this game are long established. No, the media aren't fair. No, the Tories won't play fair either. No, FPTP isn't fair. No, the boundary changes weren't fair. Yes, the electorate are morons. But this is what it is. This is the system we have and the one Corbyn signed up to take part in.

If he can't play he'll doom us to another term of the Tories. The arithmetic is in their court.

Got any specific policy suggestions to accompany the vague and broad advice that Corbyn should abandon his principles and be the same as everyone else?

People who storm on about a cult of Corbyn should try to understand how infuriating this constant backdrop of anything-as-long-as-it-is-against-Corbyn is.  Try to have some idea of the tone one has to continually take, as well as the patience required.

[thugler]

They voted for Cameron. His Tory party was centre-right.

So given the choice of centre left or centre right they went centre right. So why is it a good idea to go back to that!? Not that I'm convinced Cameron's govt were much more centrist than May's.

There are plenty of voters to win other than tories who will largely vote tory regardless of who is in charge.

[Zetetic]

I'm not sure that they did vote for Cameron. There's a reasonable chance they didn't vote at all, or voted for the Greens or Lib Dems. (And the greater differentiation of the parties in 2017 - and some of the context - brought some of these back to Labour.)

[Buelligan]

And there are a lot of people, a lot of people, who haven't voted for years or ever bothered because they're sick to the back teeth of being schmoozed, corralled and sold out by grinning sharp talkers in expensive suits.  These are the people who will vote for Corbyn's Labour because he's real and they can see it.  The more he's attacked, the more they see it.

Most of them probably don't even talk much about politics but they get angry and now they have a way of expressing that.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Got any specific policy suggestions to accompany the vague advice that Corbyn should abandon his principles and be the same as everyone else?

That's the thing though. There's a gulf between Corbyn and New Labour. He doesn't have to be centrist to win over centrist voters. Just a policy nudge here, a rebranding of a policy there.

He doesn't even need to change the fabric of his policies, just sell them and himself better. That's playing the game. That question he was asked last week about Brexit that he dithered through four times? A proper opposition leader would have launched a scathing attack on the Tories' handling of Brexit at the first opportunity. Use colourful language and rhetoric. Force your way into the news cycle.

[Replies From View]

That's the thing though. There's a gulf between Corbyn and New Labour. He doesn't have to be centrist to win over centrist voters. Just a policy nudge here, a rebranding of a policy there.

He doesn't even need to change the fabric of his policies, just sell them and himself better. That's playing the game. That question he was asked last week about Brexit that he dithered through four times? A proper opposition leader would have launched a scathing attack on the Tories' handling of Brexit at the first opportunity. Use colourful language and rhetoric. Force your way into the news cycle.

Can you suggest any specific "policy nudge" or rebranding that would get you and millions of others onboard?

It is specific detail I am after rather than broad and vague advice.  Something that you are yearning to hear a potential leader of this country offering.

[monolith]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45333268

Eh? Why is this such a big deal?

Genuine question, I'm a bit thick.

[Zetetic]

Which bit?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Do you want to be in government or do you want to sit on the opposition benches for another term but with the moral high ground having given it another bloody good go?

The rules of this game are long established. No, the media aren't fair. No, the Tories won't play fair either. No, FPTP isn't fair. No, the boundary changes weren't fair. Yes, the electorate are morons. But this is what it is. This is the system we have and the one Corbyn signed up to take part in.

If he can't play he'll doom us to another term of the Tories

The bloody good go was Corbyn resurrecting Labour as an electoral force after starting with inheriting 30% support and 230 MPs from Miliband, he would have needed the biggest swing in any UK general election in history to form a government. Instead, he now has 40% support and 265 MPs. And this has been accomplished in 3 years, so in only 60% of 1 electoral cycle.

And you want him to stop.

I'd love to have you on a mountaineering expedition, you'd be the frozen corpse we find clinging to a packet of half eaten toffos after calling off the ascent and getting caught in sticky weather on the way down instead. Same fucking idiots who said Miliband was too scary left wing to ever be elected, rather than simply too shit.

Everybody here thinks Corbyn can do better in some areas and have said such as times. They have learned and adapted a lot and improved many things, and there is a lot more that could be done.

As for Brexit PR performance, Corbyn eviscerated May at PMQs before the recess, four or five weeks in a row and the Tories were looking in a mess before the summer hols and the Anti-Semitism slur attack was launched.

[Blinder Data]

Sorry to mention TFM but I follow him on Twitter. I wouldn't recommend it. It means I see everything he does, even his 'likes' which is just the crazier "moderate" shit. The guy is relentless, it's genuinely a bit worrying. It takes something when someone like me (not even a big Corbyn fan) can't stomach his schtick.

[Endicott]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45333268

Eh? Why is this such a big deal?

Because the main stream media says it is a big deal.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Sorry to mention TFM but I follow him on Twitter. I wouldn't recommend it. It means I see everything he does, even his 'likes' which is just the crazier "moderate" shit. The guy is relentless, it's genuinely a bit worrying. It takes something when someone like me (not even a big Corbyn fan) can't stomach his schtick.

Weirdest things are that a) the global establishment don't need TFM's help, they are getting on okay, so where's the motivation to be a psychotic social media warrior who definitely goes to the gym and has a great life coming from? b) if this is to further his own ambitions he has made the mistake of leaving a slime trail of misogynistic and immature remarks on this here forum that wouldn't be accepted in a political arena... so we can call him out any time we like

[Blinder Data]

That was quick

[Endicott]

Do you want to be in government or do you want to sit on the opposition benches for another term but with the moral high ground having given it another bloody good go?

The rules of this game are long established. No, the media aren't fair. No, the Tories won't play fair either. No, FPTP isn't fair. No, the boundary changes weren't fair. Yes, the electorate are morons. But this is what it is. This is the system we have and the one Corbyn signed up to take part in.

If he can't play he'll doom us to another term of the Tories. The arithmetic is in their court.

I don't see it like that. The game has to change or we are doomed to more of the same for ever more. And for what it's worth, I don't think the electorate are morons. The electorate are me and you. If someone changes the rules, they might notice. That's what I like about Corbyn, that he refuses to play along. If it doesn't work, Labour won't save us. If Corbyn goes Labour will be back to what it was before, no Tory changes will be reverted, we will lose the NHS. This is a last stand.

[pancreas]

He doesn't even need to change the fabric of his policies, just sell them and himself better. That's playing the game. That question he was asked last week about Brexit that he dithered through four times? A proper opposition leader would have launched a scathing attack on the Tories' handling of Brexit at the first opportunity. Use colourful language and rhetoric. Force your way into the news cycle.

I will accept some of this. I have been trying to push Nick Brown on why there has been such a feeble attempt to make the Tories responsible for the dog turd they've been making of Brexit, and that steps must be taken to make them own the chaos they're causing. But bear in mind Corbyn, like Ed Miliband, will be interviewed in that manner many times a day with a view to making him lose his cool. Then they'll broadcast that bit. Or if he is utterly consistent they'll show that he's mechanical by doing the same thing over and over. I tend to think Cameron was right just to walk off.

One more point about the tuition fees which seems to exercise Darles so much. Working in a university, I can see quite directly and clearly the damage that marketisation has had on academia. Universities have ceased to be communities of scholars and have become paper factories, turning out 'satisfied' students, who have had to do no work. What Blair and co have done to the HE sector in this country is abominable and taken the UK from a respected position in which it was punching well above its weight globally with quite scant resources but staffed with independent highly-motivated academics ... to a construction industry erecting buildings for apparently no reason than that everyone else is doing it, all predicated on putting young people into debt they will never be able to pay off. Other countries with serious universities, like the US, Germany, France, Australia etc., simply cannot believe what has happened to the UK's universities.

We as lecturers are made acutely aware of their 9k/your fees, both by them and by management, who do everything they can to prevent us from failing them. So we have to teach to a frankly laughable level, barely getting out of A Level by half-way through the degree. And if they all fuck up an exam, we scale it up so they pass anyway. In Switzerland, you take any degree you want, but if you fail, you have to retake or try something else. That's where we want to be if we want to improve standards. More failing of students.

[pancreas]

That was quick

Hello Falco.

[finnquark]

Can you suggest any specific "policy nudge" or rebranding that would get you and millions of others onboard?

I would be interested in hearing some more concrete ideas on secondary/FE education, particularly given the snowballing stories of MAT and Free School failings. The 2017 manifesto went as far as promising 'democratically accountable' secondary schools. Since then there hasn't been any specifics on the structure of secondary education, despite numerous examples of parents and unions organising to oppose the mandatory academisation of local schools. Individual Labour MPs discuss it occasionally (on social media mostly), and even Rayner mentioned the 'great scandal' in a tweet in late July. But there hasn't been any announcement of an intention to reverse the academisation policies, or even a timid announcement on a public inquiry. More money has been promised - great, that'll help. Reinstating the EMA - good, long overdue. But there's no structural analysis being propagated, and to come out and make such an announcement now would be pushing at an open door at this point.

I'm already onboard, and this mightn't get 'millions' but it might get a few.

[BlodwynPig]

I will accept some of this. I have been trying to push Nick Brown on why there has been such a feeble attempt to make the Tories responsible for the dog turd they've been making of Brexit, and that steps must be taken to make them own the chaos they're causing. But bear in mind Corbyn, like Ed Miliband, will be interviewed in that manner many times a day with a view to making him lose his cool. Then they'll broadcast that bit. Or if he is utterly consistent they'll show that he's mechanical by doing the same thing over and over. I tend to think Cameron was right just to walk off.

One more point about the tuition fees which seems to exercise Darles so much. Working in a university, I can see quite directly and clearly the damage that marketisation has had on academia. Universities have ceased to be communities of scholars and have become paper factories, turning out 'satisfied' students, who have had to do no work. What Blair and co have done to the HE sector in this country is abominable and taken the UK from a respected position in which it was punching well above its weight globally with quite scant resources but staffed with independent highly-motivated academics ... to a construction industry erecting buildings for apparently no reason than that everyone else is doing it, all predicated on putting young people into debt they will never be able to pay off. Other countries with serious universities, like the US, Germany, France, Australia etc., simply cannot believe what has happened to the UK's universities.

We as lecturers are made acutely aware of their 9k/your fees, both by them and by management, who do everything they can to prevent us from failing them. So we have to teach to a frankly laughable level, barely getting out of A Level by half-way through the degree. And if they all fuck up an exam, we scale it up so they pass anyway. In Switzerland, you take any degree you want, but if you fail, you have to retake or try something else. That's where we want to be if we want to improve standards. More failing of students.

well said, but I don't think its just a UK thing judging by what the guys round here say.

[biggytitbo]

A former chief rabbi says Jeremy Corbyn's comments about British Zionists are the "most offensive statement" by a politician since Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech.

Another shark jumped, we're running out.

[BlodwynPig]

Another shark jumped, we're running out.

Just 1 Hitler comparison away from the full-set.

[olliebean]

Margaret Hodge probably came closest to the Hitler comparison with her "I now know how it must have felt to be a Jew in Nazi Germany" bollocks.